Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana and Marriott Ownerships

[dioxide45]

It looks real up until the point they won’t let you take the information with you. I’ve seen far to many dog and pony shows from sales teams in the past.

A hard and fast rule of thumb for me is, if I can take the information with me, it’s real. If I can’t, it’s most likely fake news.

I want to believe what I’m seeing, but when they force everyone onto the sales floor for information and won’t let anyone take anything with them other than clandestine pictures……we’ll then it doesn’t pass the sniff test.

I’ll wait until the hard release when it’s all in writing for everyone to see. Until then, I think I’ll stay on my timeshare couch rather than waste time of smoke and mirrors sales presentations where I’m not allowed to take any presentation literature with me.

Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles

 

[Avulasai]

I am new to this board…. Would appreciate some feedback. We attended a vistana presentation and bought 81000 star options package for $32k. Everyone said I should rescind. Few questions :
1) any idea after the merger what would be star options to dp points conversion. ?
2) what is an good price for 81000 start options package ? Looks like it generally gives us 1 week or 2 weeks depending on location and timing for a 2 bedroo
3) it’s $32k onetime plus annual maintenance

 

[byeloe]

I am new to this board…. Would appreciate some feedback. We attended a vistana presentation and bought 81000 star options package for $32k. Everyone said I should rescind. Few questions :
1) any idea after the merger what would be star options to dp points conversion. ?
2) what is an good price for 81000 start options package ? Looks like it generally gives us 1 week or 2 weeks depending on location and timing for a 2 bedroo
3) it’s $32k onetime plus annual maintenance

1. Depends on which resort your options are from. Maybe in the 2500 point range
2. 81000 from WKV is around $9000 or from SVV maybe $2000 to 4000 ( resale market)

 

[Avulasai]

1. Depends on which resort your options are from. Maybe in the 2500 point range
2. 81000 from WKV is around $9000 or from SVV maybe $2000 to 4000 ( resale market)

What resale market ? It appears resale market is only for weeks but not points . I could not find mvc or SVv points

 

[byeloe]

What resale market ? It appears resale market is only for weeks but not points . I could not find mvc or SVv points

If you buy a Mandatory vistana resort the week comes with Staroptions that you can use to go to other resorts at 8 months.
2bd HIGH Season at SVV-Bella or SVV-Keywest come with 81000 options. They will cost from $2000 to $4000 resale when you can find them.

A 1BD Platinum large at WKV also comes with 81000 staroptions but will cost from $7000 to $9000

 

[DanCali]

1. Depends on which resort your options are from. Maybe in the 2500 point range
2. 81000 from WKV is around $9000 or from SVV maybe $2000 to 4000 ( resale market)

81,000 at WKV can come in the form or a large 1BR Platinum (high) season, or a 2BR lockoff Gold (mid) season.

The 1BR Platinum is significantly more expensive on the resale market than the 2BR Gold due to the lower maintenance fees (and higher rental value compared to MFs). I haven't followed prices but my best guess would be $7K-$9K for the 1BR Platinum vs. $2K-4K for the 2BR Gold.

 

[Avulasai]

What resale market ? It appears resale market is only for weeks but not points . I could not find mvc or SVv points

Never mind I found it… now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…

 

[Avulasai]

Thank you. now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…would Marriott put restrictions if so what kind? For example I want to buy Marriott DP points in resale and use them on myrtle beach ocean watch. Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom

 

[byeloe]

Never mind I found it… now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…

The only Vistana points that you can get directly are flex options, either WESTIN FLEX, Sheraton Flex or Westin Aventuras Flex. They have minimal resale value since the ability to use the options at 8 Months does not transfer to the buyer.

A WKV resale will hold value better.

You can't convert resale options to bonvoy pts(usually not cost effective anyway) or count the options towards Elite status.

Other than that, resale mandatory star options work exactly the same as developer purchased options

 

[Steve Fatula]

Thank you. now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…would Marriott put restrictions if so what kind? For example I want to buy Marriott DP points in resale and use them on myrtle beach ocean watch. Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom

There is no difference between resale Marriott points and direct Marriott points, except, you have to pay various junk fees to get full use of them, one time fees. See: https://vacationpointexchange.com/resale/. There is a large resale market out there, most any place that sells resale timeshares sells resale points. Peak season July ranges from 3450 to 5400 depending on exact dates and view. As little as 600 points for a week in winter.

 

[Fasttr]

Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom

Points charts can be found here.....

https://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2022.pdf

 

[CPNY]

I am new to this board…. Would appreciate some feedback. We attended a vistana presentation and bought 81000 star options package for $32k. Everyone said I should rescind. Few questions :
1) any idea after the merger what would be star options to dp points conversion. ?
2) what is an good price for 81000 start options package ? Looks like it generally gives us 1 week or 2 weeks depending on location and timing for a 2 bedroo
3) it’s $32k onetime plus annual maintenance

Listen to everyone….. do you think you you’ll get different information here?

 

[Avulasai]

Listen to everyone….. do you think you you’ll get different information here?

Thank you.

 

[CPNY]

Thank you. now what is the difference in buying points on resale Vs directly from Sheraton Vs Marriott directly ? Resale is so cheap…would Marriott put restrictions if so what kind? For example I want to buy Marriott DP points in resale and use them on myrtle beach ocean watch. Does anyone know how many points for the peak July seasons for a 2- bedroom

This is the wrong thread for this discussion. Post a new thread in the Marriott forum

 

[o2bonn]

Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles

Here is a pic from the new book …

 

[dougp26364]

Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles

True enough. But once everything is official, owners can find most of the information, rules and points values required to book online. Right now it’s just something a salesman is showing prospects with no real way to confirm if it’s accurate.

Sometimes I don’t mind watching the rodeo. I’m just not buying the bull.

 

[JIMinNC]

I wish people would stop calling it a merger, because it definitely is not a merger. It seems to essentially be an overlay of the DP program over Vistana's network (or part of it, anyway) which qualified Vistana owners can opt into.

I think the terminology - merger vs. overlay - is sort of just semantics, and may depend upon whether you are looking at this from the VSN side or the Marriott side. Clearly from the VSN side, this looks more like an overlay, since it's a new option overlaid on the VSN network. But in that same sense, on the MVC side, the DP Program was also an overlay on top of the original MVC weeks program when DP was launched back in 2010. But ever since June 2010, DP has been the program that is sold in the sales offices and any new resorts go into DP, not weeks. I think very soon, maybe even this summer, VSN will no longer be sold in the sales offices. Existing VSN owner privileges will live on, but not for new sales. After some point all new sales will be DP at all Marriott, Westin, Sheraton locations.

So, from the MVC side, it looks like the VSN program is being assimilated within the broader Marriott program in the the exact same way our weeks program was assimilated in 2010. Weeks were the legacy MVC program that the DP Program replaced for new sales, but existing weeks rights lived on for those of us who still want to play with weeks rather than DPs. VSN is another legacy program that the DP Program will replace for new sales, but which will live on for legacy owners who chose to use their weeks or StarOptions rather than DPs. In that way, it is more of a merger than an overlay, since sometime in the months ahead all new VOI sales will be DPs - one consolidated product that two legacy programs - MVC weeks and VSN - are affiliated with.

 

[jabberwocky]

I think very soon, maybe even this summer, VSN will no longer be sold in the sales offices. Existing VSN owner privileges will live on, but not for new sales. After some point all new sales will be DP at all Marriott, Westin, Sheraton locations.

Just a point of clarification - Vistana has never sold “VSN”. VSN itself is an overlay on the weeks system - you never really own StarOptions - it has always been what value does your week or HomeOptions convert into within VSN. It is a subtle point, but one I think some of the Marriott folks don’t have a full appreciation of given their experience with DP.

The only “points” that they have ever sold on the Vistana side have been in one of the flex programs or at select individual resorts (ie Nanea). But these programs were relatively new, and a small percentage of the overall ownership. What you are saying may be true for the “voluntary” resorts that lose their SO exchange value when sold on the resale market; but the mandatory VOIs will still retain their ability to convert to SO.

At any rate, I think it will probably be at least 10-15 years before we see any real impact on ability to book within VSN given the disparity between the proposed DP values and SO values for certain resorts.

 

[rcv82]

The only Vistana points that you can get directly are flex options, either WESTIN FLEX, Sheraton Flex or Westin Aventuras Flex. They have minimal resale value since the ability to use the options at 8 Months does not transfer to the buyer.

A WKV resale will hold value better.

You can't convert resale options to bonvoy pts(usually not cost effective anyway) or count the options towards Elite status.

Other than that, resale mandatory star options work exactly the same as developer purchased options

Resale Flex can be a good way to go depending on your needs. While “voluntary” meaning the ability to use StarOptions at 8 months does not apply unless retro’ed with another purchase, you have the ability to book any resort in your Flex ownership plan for anytime beginning at 12 months for any duration up to two weeks at a time. So what you don’t get it the ability to book other Vistana resorts outside your plan at 8 months unless requalified. I see very cheap Sheraton Flex often, but not so much on Westin Flex.

I will also note that if you can get resale Flex cheap, it really isn’t going to lose value from the resale price—the original purchaser already took that hit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wjarcher]

Just a point of clarification - Vistana has never sold “VSN”. VSN itself is an overlay on the weeks system - you never really own StarOptions - it has always been what value does your week or HomeOptions convert into within VSN. It is a subtle point, but one I think some of the Marriott folks don’t have a full appreciation of given their experience with DP.

The only “points” that they have ever sold on the Vistana side have been in one of the flex programs or at select individual resorts (ie Nanea). But these programs were relatively new, and a small percentage of the overall ownership. What you are saying may be true for the “voluntary” resorts that lose their SO exchange value when sold on the resale market; but the mandatory VOIs will still retain their ability to convert to SO.

At any rate, I think it will probably be at least 10-15 years before we see any real impact on ability to book within VSN given the disparity between the proposed DP values and SO values for certain resorts.

My concern after the introduction of the new system is mainly about the VSN availability of the popular resort such as WKORV/N which are assigned with much higher DP value. We've been using SVV to trade in Maui to add on the week we own there, how likely can i continue to do so.

 

[dougp26364]

Here’s what I have gleaned from everything I’ve read and heard

1. nothing is finalized. Everything is subject to change, but it’s unlikely there will be major changes
2. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will maintain their current usage rights exactly like they have them now. They will continue to be able to use their ownership as they always have without interruption
3. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will have the option to elect participation in Marriotts Destination Club on an annual basis (I haven’t seen mention of the timeframe to elect this option).
4. Marriott owners will only have access to Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory that has been elected by those owners to be deposited/converted toDestination Points.
5. once the program is finalized, only Destination Club Points will be sold
6. Once the program is finalized, any unsold inventory with Westin/Vistana/Sheraton will be deposited into the Destination Club trust.
7. MVC owners are not likely to see much Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory in the DC until 2024 and more likely 2025.
8. I anticipate Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners who are not TUG members may be more excited about the prospect of all the MVC locations and will test the availability.
9. I anticipate there will still be the Marriott “skim”(given fewer points than it takes to reserve what you currently hold), and this will limit the number of Westin/Vistana/Sheraton conversions to the DC is those owners can find what they want in their own program.
10. As points reservations become more popular, weeks exchanges will become a little more difficult to obtain, but this will take many years (decades) to play out.

What we don’t know is when this will be finalized or the exact date that they wil, stop selling the current program. Sales does not appear to be guaranteeing anything, making this an informed guess/rumor IMHO with guidance by Mother Marriott. I do believe that all sales material has been provided by mother Marriott. I believe the soft launch is designed to get feedback from owners at the sales presentations to see what works and what might not work, allowing for time to tweak the program, as in tweak the points given for any particular week (up/down) based on current owner response.

The most important thing I’m taking away from all this discussion is that nothing is finalized and everything is subject to change. That makes all of this informed speculation IMHO with a pretty solid source for that speculation. Still, I would not recommend buying additional time/points unless it is to provide additional vacation time with full, current ownership usage rights in the group of resorts you prefer. I would not buy now based on a program that is still subject to change. IOW, if I wanted Marriott Destination Club access, I’d buyDestination Club points, either direct or resale, rather than increase my Westin/Vistana/Sheraton ownership on the promise of conversion rights. If I wanted to lock in Westin/Vistana/Sheraton first right privileges then I’d increase my ownership in that group before the opportunity is gone

 

[GregT]

Here’s what I have gleaned from everything I’ve read and heard

1. nothing is finalized. Everything is subject to change, but it’s unlikely there will be major changes
2. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will maintain their current usage rights exactly like they have them now. They will continue to be able to use their ownership as they always have without interruption
3. Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners will have the option to elect participation in Marriotts Destination Club on an annual basis (I haven’t seen mention of the timeframe to elect this option).
4. Marriott owners will only have access to Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory that has been elected by those owners to be deposited/converted toDestination Points.
5. once the program is finalized, only Destination Club Points will be sold
6. Once the program is finalized, any unsold inventory with Westin/Vistana/Sheraton will be deposited into the Destination Club trust.
7. MVC owners are not likely to see much Westin/Vistana/Sheraton inventory in the DC until 2024 and more likely 2025.
8. I anticipate Westin/Vistana/Sheraton owners who are not TUG members may be more excited about the prospect of all the MVC locations and will test the availability.
9. I anticipate there will still be the Marriott “skim”(given fewer points than it takes to reserve what you currently hold), and this will limit the number of Westin/Vistana/Sheraton conversions to the DC is those owners can find what they want in their own program.
10. As points reservations become more popular, weeks exchanges will become a little more difficult to obtain, but this will take many years (decades) to play out.

What we don’t know is when this will be finalized or the exact date that they wil, stop selling the current program. Sales does not appear to be guaranteeing anything, making this an informed guess/rumor IMHO with guidance by Mother Marriott. I do believe that all sales material has been provided by mother Marriott. I believe the soft launch is designed to get feedback from owners at the sales presentations to see what works and what might not work, allowing for time to tweak the program, as in tweak the points given for any particular week (up/down) based on current owner response.

The most important thing I’m taking away from all this discussion is that nothing is finalized and everything is subject to change. That makes all of this informed speculation IMHO with a pretty solid source for that speculation. Still, I would not recommend buying additional time/points unless it is to provide additional vacation time with full, current ownership usage rights in the group of resorts you prefer. I would not buy now based on a program that is still subject to change. IOW, if I wanted Marriott Destination Club access, I’d buyDestination Club points, either direct or resale, rather than increase my Westin/Vistana/Sheraton ownership on the promise of conversion rights. If I wanted to lock in Westin/Vistana/Sheraton first right privileges then I’d increase my ownership in that group before the opportunity is gone

Thank you Doug, this is a very nice summary of the current position, as we understand it.

From a Marriott owner perspective, Point #6 is most important to understand — how much unsold inventory actually exists and/or has Marriott been actively ROFRing the high quality Westin’s for the last year for purposes of building that inventory?

I own Starwood and bought so that I can access specific properties (Westin Princeville, primarily but have also visited Harborside, Lagunamar and WKORV). It is interesting to open up the possibility of now accessing them with DC points (Harborside TBD) and I am curious how the value and availability will unfold between the two systems. This is a tough one for Marriott and I don’t envy them the complexities.

Thanks again for your fine summary!

Best,

Greg

 

[Eric B]

6. Once the program is finalized, any unsold inventory with Westin/Vistana/Sheraton will be deposited into the Destination Club trust.

This one seems a bit speculative. There are some categories of unsold inventory that the developer has chosen not to deposit into the Flex trusts because of its higher value separate from those trusts (e.g., the oceanfront WKORV/N units) and some that isn't included in any of the Flex trust products (e.g., WSJ). I haven't seen anything that would indicate that unsold inventory will be deposited in the Destination Club trust and I'm not sure that depositing it would be necessary or potentially even possible due to the way some of them are set up.

 

[SueDonJ]

Passing the sniff test and being pure speculation are two different things. They never (rarely) let anything leave the sales floor. Mainly because, well, most developer purchases don't pass the sniff test when you vet them out with your own math on your own time. Thus the "must buy today" of how timeshares are sold. Marriott owners may never get much in writing about the new program other than "here you go, new resorts to book" along with points charts for booking Vistana properties. Vistana owners will hopefully get something more, but who knows. At a hard launch, we will still be relying on others to know how many points people get in exchange for their weeks. Resale owners would then also be able to determine if they can or can't participate. Other than that, there isn't much else to know I guess. We will most likely take in an owner update at SVR when we visit in a little over a month. Most likely because I like the smoke and mirrors and what they might try next. It is all part of the game, and they will give us some fancy gift for our troubles

I think that Vistana owners who choose to "enroll" (or whatever terminology is used) their eligible ownerships in the DC Exchange Company will get the same documentation as is given to owners of Marriott Weeks, at the least a copy of the "Enrollment Agreement" and "Exchange Procedures" governing documents, either the existing versions as amended to include Vistana-specific requirements/language or versions separate and distinct. (I don't know for a fact if it's mandated by law that MVW provide those in the same way that it's mandated that Weeks purchasers must be provided certain docs, but I suspect it probably is because they only ever distribute informational materials to satisfy legal requirements.) I agree with you that MVW won't ever publish for public consumption a chart showing the DC Points election values of Vistana Weeks or Points, because if it were a legal requirement they would have published such a list for Marriott Weeks.

I'm looking forward to your report following your upcoming sales presentation.

 

[SueDonJ]

Here is a pic from the new book …View attachment 51104

In talking about this being a "soft launch" - I think it's great that MVW learned something from the initial Destination Club launch and is providing at least the developed Points Charts for Vistana properties. But I'm hesitant to say that MVW's purpose with a "soft launch" is for them to be able to tweak things prior to the "official" rollout, one reason being because the information they're releasing must have already received approval from the regulatory agencies and it's already in the same book form that we remember from the initial DC rollout. If history is any indication, there won't be tweaks made to these Points Charts until the 2024 charts are tweaked to reflect changes in days/dates of holidays.

The one footnote, "Resort is available using Club Points only through the MVC Exchange Company," is interesting. At the initial rollout that language confused us a bit, until we figured out fairly early on that it meant that no intervals at those resorts had to that point been conveyed to the DC Trust. If the same footnote is on every page in the Vistana Points Charts, it will be interesting going forward to learn if MVW ever intends to convey non-MVC-branded intervals to the DC Trust or if the integration of any other timeshare systems will only ever be via the DC Exchange Company.