There is Hope: Germany’s Death Rate is 0.18%

[bluehende]

This is a good article about the impact of financial crisis on health. It says: ...a rise in deaths linked to long-term economic hardship — suicide, overdoses and the like — has caused devastation in communities across the middle of the country, leading to a troubling recent decline in U.S. life expectancy. Economic prosperity is a matter of public health, too — the necessary condition for it, in fact. The United States must respond to the coronavirus accordingly.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-feds-hypothetical-stress-test-is-now-all-too-real/2020/03/23/f0d3a1fa-6d22-11ea-a3ec-70d7479d83f0_story.html

Keep in mind that the Washington Post is liberal. For them to be arguing that economic prosperity is a necessary condition for public health and the the USA should respond accordingly says a lot. I keep thinking that the "cure" for the coronavirus is worse than the virus itself.

Here we go again. The Washington Post has the reputation of being one of the finest investigative papers in the country one of few. Just because they print news that a certain individual does want to hear does not make them liberal. If you want to talk about their editorial page I might say they lean liberal as does the market they serve, but those are opinions like you linked to.

I will ask how much stress would there be if the death total reaches 2,2 million which is what is modeled if we do nothing.

The one thing I can guarantee is that the governors who are making these decisions have considered economic pain. They like to get re elected. I will continue to believe the experts like Dr Fauci that warn of dire consequences if we do not do this. As a member of a group that does have higher risk I appeciate these efforts as I would like to continue seeing my grandkids after this is over.

 

[TravelTime]

LibGuides: Detecting Bias: Leanings of Magazines, Newspapers

This is a tool to assist you in determining what bias or leanings a magazine or newspaper may have.

libguides.lorainccc.edu

 

[b2bailey]

Research Guides: "Fake News," Lies and Propaganda: How to Sort Fact from Fiction: Where do news sources fall on the political bias spectrum?

Research Guides: "Fake News," Lies and Propaganda: How to Sort Fact from Fiction: Where do news sources fall on the political bias spectrum?

guides.lib.umich.edu

Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Panina]

LibGuides: Detecting Bias: Leanings of Magazines, Newspapers

This is a tool to assist you in determining what bias or leanings a magazine or newspaper may have.

libguides.lorainccc.edu

Agree with chart except for two but can be handy to determine how what you read or watch leans.

 

[TravelTime]

Thank you for sharing this.

I changed my link because I noticed that link used the words “Fake News” which is not allowed on TUG. The new link has a chart and it shows where the various news sources lean. Of course, this is just opinion too but I have found it to be fairly accurate after reading many of these news sources.

 

[bluehende]

@TravelTime

I will say why I had such a visceral reaction to your post. All of your links refer to media being left or right .....not liberal. I got an implication from your post that somehow these decisions to radically alter our life for a while are liberal policies. This is getting dangerously close to the liberal hoax narrative that was being pushed by certain people and news organizations. I and my wife are in a group that has a real risk. Depending on the scenario it could be substantial. I would like to add that politicians from both sides have come to the exact same conclusion and I for one am glad.

 

[b2bailey]

I changed my link because I noticed that link used the words “Fake News” which is not allowed on TUG. The new link has a chart and it shows where the various news sources lean. Of course, this is just opinion too but I have found it to be fairly accurate after reading many of these news sources.

Yes. I like that one even better. I'm not a regular news watcher, so this is helpful.

 

[TravelTime]

@TravelTime

I will say why I had such a visceral reaction to your post. All of your links refer to media being left or right .....not liberal. I got an implication from your post that somehow these decisions to radically alter our life for a while are liberal policies. This is getting dangerously close to the liberal hoax narrative that was being pushed by certain people and news organizations. I and my wife are in a group that has a real risk. Depending on the scenario it could be substantial. I would like to add that politicians from both sides have come to the exact same conclusion and I for one am glad.

I did not realize the word “liberal” was loaded. Maybe I should have said it leans left. The point was that a left-leaning news source was looking at the economic cost of the coronavirus. That is all I meant. There was no hidden meaning. I myself lean left or liberal. I think we need to consider the economic costs as much as the illness risks and I feel that is being ignored. It is taboo to talk about. It is as if anyone mentions the economic costs that you are ignoring science. The science says that economics affect physical and mental health.

 

[bluehende]

I did not realize the word “liberal” was loaded. Maybe I should have said it leans left. The point was that a left-leaning news source was looking at the economic cost of the coronavirus. That is all I meant. There was no hidden meaning. I myself lean left or liberal. I think we need to consider the economic costs as much as the illness risks and I feel that is being ignored. It is taboo to talk about. It is as if anyone mentions the economic costs that you are ignoring science. The science says that economics affect physical and mental health.

I am not sure where you get it is being ignored. My Governors statements have always including the statements understanding the financial impact this causes and pointing out the programs DE has to help including specific ones set up recently. There were even links to help for both business and workers. Governor Cuomo today talked about it a lot and explained his decision specifically in regard to what you are concerned about. We are talking about 2 trillion dollars at the federal level to mitigate the financial impacts. The fed has added more trillions of liquidity , How is that ignoring? It also seems to be taboo to talk about how we will be paying for that.

 

[TravelTime]

I am not sure where you get it is being ignored. My Governors statements have always including the statements understanding the financial impact this causes and pointing out the programs DE has to help including specific ones set up recently. There were even links to help for both business and workers. Governor Cuomo today talked about it a lot and explained his decision specifically in regard to what you are concerned about. We are talking about 2 trillion dollars at the federal level to mitigate the financial impacts. The fed has added more trillions of liquidity , How is that ignoring? It also seems to be taboo to talk about how we will be paying for that.

I am not talking about recovery programs. The government is throwing a ton of money at recovery after they destroyed the economy. I am referring to asking the question of whether the shut downs are worth the damage to the economy. This is something that the Washington Post article discussed. It is a question that is unpopular to ask or discuss. I just read a Tugger saying on another thread that this question should not even be asked.

 

[bluehende]

I am not talking about recovery programs. The government is throwing a ton of money at recovery after they destroyed the economy. I am referring to asking the question of whether the shut downs are worth the damage to the economy. This is something that the Washington Post article discussed. It is a question that is unpopular to ask or discuss. I just read a Tugger saying on another thread that this question should not even be asked.

What recovery plan is there for the dead? Yes we can discuss the costs of policy decisions , but not before this is done and behind us. I for one do not want to be the test subject of an experiment that failure of a theory results in a significant chance of my death. At least significant to me. We all talk our own book. And you have never answered the basic question of what if we do nothing and the death rate means 2.2 million americans die as the kings college model predicts. Their article is not an opinion piece and actual gives their methods. Feel free to criticize their methods, but at least they give them. Where is our economy when people are terrified to leave there home as opposed to being asked to stay home.

 

[Rolltydr]

Agree with chart except for two but can be handy to determine how what you read or watch leans.

The problem with this is that it encourages people to only read from sources they agree with, or more accurately, that reinforce what they already believe. We learn nothing when we do that.

I prefer to break it down into fact-based media vs. opinion media. There are facts that I do not like. They’re still facts! There are opinions that I love. They’re still only someone’s opinion.

The news side of the Washington Post is one of the best fact-based, investigative news organizations in the world. That is my opinion based on stories they have broken over decades. Their editorial staff consists of conservatives, such as Hugh Hewitt, and liberals, such as E.J. Dionne and many, many voices in between on all points of the political spectrum. That is a fact. It is not a liberal newspaper. It is a fact-based organization with an editorial staff that is completely separated from it’s news staff.

So, I can read WaPo and learn new information that I may like or not like, read opinions that reinforce my beliefs, and also read opinions that challenge my beliefs. That’s what I want, indeed, need from the media. If I’m only going to read something that I already know or believe, I’m wasting my time.

 

[geekette]

Compare how the countries that shut down fared vs those that didn't, or did it too late. We are doing it way too late. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Covin doesn't care that we're Americans.

On the question of, your money your life, most would value their lives more than money.

If what only some states are doing is worse than death, I have no rebuttal to that because it leaves me speechless.

 

[goaliedave]

Compare how the countries that shut down fared vs those that didn't, or did it too late. We are doing it way too late. We've seen what works and what doesn't. Covin doesn't care that we're Americans.

On the question of, your money your life, most would value their lives more than money.

If what only some states are doing is worse than death, I have no rebuttal to that because it leaves me speechless.

I agree with this and generally what you post. Much is being done way too late and it is a shame, but likely for $$.

Sent from my SM-A505G using Tapatalk

 

[TravelTime]

What I have read that works the best is massive testing with laser focused quarantines of those with the virus. This is until we have a vaccine or other cure. I suspect that mass shutdowns and widespread Shelter at Home mandates are happening because no one was prepared with better solutions. Countries ignored warnings and were caught off guard. Now we just need to ride out this health and economic crisis and hope for the best.

 

[clifffaith]

This info begs the question I keep asking but nobody wants to play along.
What if the reason these seniors died was because they had end of life instructions that clearly stated they did not want to be hooked up to a ventilator? I keep expecting to see something in the news about this. Like a mention to check your own personal instructions to be sure you would be allowed to be hooked up to a ventilator.

We have been "waiting for Dad to die" for a year. 87 years old, COPD, congestive heart failure, hospice care, in theory a no heroic measures decree is in place and morphine is in the fridge, waiting to ease breathing and likely hasten his demise at the end. If he gets infected with CV, basically he was already dead and I don't think he should be counted although I suspect they would.

 

[x3 skier]

As one of those who is approaching 80 and in good health, if the virus gets me, as Joe Walsh sang “Life’s been good to me so far”.

One thing to me that always creates a feeling of “what if” is the true comparison to deaths caused by flu to the deaths caused by COVID-19. The numbers are continuing to grow but the measures being taken against COVID-19 are much farther reaching than those against the flu. Even with a vaccine against flu, 12000-61000 die of the flu in the US. So far, around 600 deaths in the US from COVID-19 and this is expected to grow rapidly. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hea...ronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu

So while I accept and comply with the approach the experts have recommended, it will be interesting to me the actual cost for the number of lives saved when the virus is contained.

Cheers

 

[TravelTime]

Getting back to the subject of this post, here is an article as to why Germany's death rate is so small.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-death-rate/2020/03/24/76ce18e4-6d05-11ea-a156-0048b62cdb51_story.html

 

[Mongoose]

Th

In The NY Times, it was reported that Germany’s official count of coronavirus infections jumped 34 percent from Wednesday to Thursday, reaching 10,999. Germany’s fatality rate remains strikingly low, with 20 dead to date.

There is always hope. As COVID-19 continues to spread and our numbers increase, keep perspective in mind. We are a very large country compared to most. When you take this in to account the infection rate for COVID-19 is 190 cases per 100,000 in Italy, in Germany the case rate is 40 per 100,000 and in the US it is 15 cases per 100,000. This will increase before it gets better, but we are outperforming the norm and will hopefully bend the curve soon if people are responsible and practice social distancing.

 

[Mongoose]

Playing devil’s advocate. I am sort of wondering why the experts think Covid-19 is so dangerous or deadly. In China, 3200 people out of close to 1.5 billion people have died. This is so small that I can’t even calculate a percentage. It rounds up to 0.00%. Same with Germany, 92 deaths out of 82 million people. China might be a better indicator than Germany since China has more or less contained the spread. I understand that the percentage of people dying out of those infected is high in some countries but the total mortality rate is minuscule.

We can't trust the data coming out of China. It is going to turn out to be much worse there than reported. Travel in China is not open to everyone between their own provicences. This helped limit the spread there as well as the severe efforts they took to keep people off the streets. However, when the dust clears you will see many more people unfortunately died in their homes rather than risk being taken to a concentration camp type hospital.

 

[b2bailey]

Th

There is always hope. As COVID-19 continues to spread and our numbers increase, keep perspective in mind. We are a very large country compared to most. When you take this in to account the infection rate for COVID-19 is 190 cases per 100,000 in Italy, in Germany the case rate is 40 per 100,000 and in the US it is 15 cases per 100,000. This will increase before it gets better, but we are outperforming the norm and will hopefully bend the curve soon if people are responsible and practice social distancing.

Okay, when you write " this will increase before it gets better" -- I have to say why? Can't we hope that somehow our efforts will sustain that lower rate? I am more motivated by a positive, hopeful approach.

 

[Rolltydr]

We can't trust the data coming out of China. It is going to turn out to be much worse there than reported. Travel in China is not open to everyone between their own provicences. This helped limit the spread there as well as the severe efforts they took to keep people off the streets. However, when the dust clears you will see many more people unfortunately died in their homes rather than risk being taken to a concentration camp type hospital.

Sounds awful! Mind citing your source so we can read more about it?


Harry

 

[VacationForever]

There is alot of speculation as to the conspiracy theory with China's fake numbers. My former staff who is currently in Shanghai with his family confirmed through FB private message with me that there are no new internal cases within China. He is also a permanent resident in Canada and was planning on going back to Canada after Chinese New Year and they are now stuck there.

 

[am1]

Okay, when you write " this will increase before it gets better" -- I have to say why? Can't we hope that somehow our efforts will sustain that lower rate? I am more motivated by a positive, hopeful approach.

My guess is people are already infected and do not know it. Policies start after people are infected. My guess is Italy, Spain USA are past the point of containment.

 

[am1]

Parts of the USA but without roadblocks/grounding flights may as well be all of it.