Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[SueDonJ]

It doesn't have to be "finagling" (which can go either way). It could be that because of whatever legal issues (as Fredm raised last week) the inventory could favor one class of owners over the other, whether it's weeks over points or points over weeks. In fact, this can vary by state...

All I am saying is that this is an important issue that needs to be factored into the decision to convert or not. In order to be factored in, one needs to first understand the issue and how things will work. In order to do that, one needs the details; blind faith in Marriott will not cut it - at least not for me. To me, this is a much more important issue to understand than how many Marriott Rewards points one gets for converting...

Of course, which is why I said that ".. if everything with this new system appears to be as legitimate ..." then they won't have to put that one inventory issue into writing in order for me to consider the new points system.

 

[PerryM]

The game of Tetris holds the key

Honestly, I don't see a problem with being on the lookout for problems with how Marriott handles the inventory after (if) this new thing is rolled out, but I just don't get the expectation that they WILL incorrectly handle it in order to generate sales. Within the current system we've not had to worry about all this despite the fact that there isn't anything in writing that we can point to for how they handle 12/13-month inventory. Why are some so willing to believe that they'll finagle it purposely to hurt the folks who don't convert? What is in their past history to lead to that expectation?

I know we didn't ask for any guarantee in writing about how inventory is handled when we purchased more than one week in order to be able to take advantage of the 13-mo rule. If everything with this new system appears to be as legitimate and is a usage improvement over what we own currently, then I won't feel like I have to ask for such a written guarantee before converting. YMMV, of course, but Marriott's consistent history with a good product and a good system holds some water with me. The only thing they'll HAVE to sell me on is that whatever gets rolled out works better for me.

Ever play Tetris on your cell phone? I do when waiting in line and it hurts just to stare at the wall.

Well Tetris has multi-colored blocks falling in a random location and you use past fallen blocks to build upon.

Marriott doesn't have to actually confirm a reservation in order for it to show up in the rental calendar - it can just hold it there in limbo waiting for other reservations to form long 13-month links which will snag ALL 13 month inventory for hot weeks.

If a non-member tries to make a reservation then the chain will be locked in and the reservation system will play Tetris again.

There is nothing wrong with this and checking your deed will find no mention that Marriott can't play these games.

Will Marriott do it? Don't know but I sure would if my sales reps spent all day selling New Year's week to everyone walking through the door.

Marriott hasn't had any vested interest in reservations before and that's why they dumped exchanging over to II. Now they do.

 

[tombo]

When Marriott rolls out the new program I feel sure that they will announce that from this point forward only points will be sold by Marriott, and that any new resorts built will only be available to Marriott points owners along with the if you don't convert eventually you will have nothing to trade for since everyone is converting and all inventory will be in points, etc, etc,blah, blah, blah.

I am sure that they will explain how resale owners will be missing out on the new points exchange program in some form or fashion from what they have been saying about resales over the past months. I hope someone here will quiz them on what disadvantages resale weeks will have from this point forward. Will new resale weeks not be allowed to convert to points? Will resale weeks be more expensive to convert to points. If you convert you week to points and sell it will the points transfer to your resale buyer or revert to weeks? For months they have threatened that resale weeks would be devalued and that resale owners would not get the same perks as retail owners once the points were rolled out. Now I am curious as to what (if any) punishment they have in place for those of us who purchased resale.

 

[taffy19]

If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy. Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.

I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.

Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.

But who knows...

Did anyone receive this invitation? I didn't see any comments but it takes place on June 16 which happens to be the week that the new system will be announced supposedly. I wished I had signed up but left it too late and now the link is dead. I am almost positive that it was for the 16th and I was going to sign up later as I was curious what they were going to pitch on that date.

I left a call to see if I can still sign up for it.

Subject: Exclusive Owner Event from Marriott Vacation Club

Dear xxxxxx,

It is my pleasure to invite you to join fellow new Owners for a web based seminar (webinar) that will discuss how to exchange your Marriott Vacation Club week through Interval International to experience a new destination.

Each year, over 40% of Marriott Vacation Club owners exchange their week(s) with Interval International, our exchange partner. This webinar will cover the different exchange methods, comparability factors, the Travel Demand index, and tips and tricks to help you comfirm your vacation with Interval International. I am confident that you will have a greater understanding of how to maximize your vacation ownership with Marriott Vacation Club after participating in our webinar.

The webinar is complimentary: all you need is a computer with access to the internet. To register for our Owner Webinar, please click here and then click on the red "Learn about Upcoming Webinars" button.

Sincerely,

Jennifer deRosier
Director of Education
Marriott Vacation Club International


PS. I received this email on May 24, 2010.

 

[taffy19]

You are likely right that there will not be a NEED to see a salesperson but I am sure that Marriott would prefer if you do. (I don't mean you personally but owners in general.) It will be a great opportunity for them to sell more. Think of the situation where someone gets 20,000 points for their ts but having 25,000 would open them up to many more possible choices. Bam, how would you like to buy some more points? Oh and by the way, if you take advantage of our one time only conversion special, you get a 10% discount on those points.

It may stay the same as it is now and they will ask you, when you arrive, if you want to do an update. The choice is yours but they may tell you that they have many enhancements to the program with some special incentives too so that you will get curious. Most people have no clue that changes are coming.

They will explain the new program and the person can convert his week or weeks and pay a conversion fee but they are offered to buy a new point package at the same time too and the more money is spent, the lower the conversion fee will be and it may be free if you buy the equivalent of a former full week at any of the existing resorts.

I still believe that they have to keep the two inventories completely separated and there has to be a way that every week owner will always be able to reserve a full week at the resort where he bought or Marriott will breached their original contract. They may have to give first shot to a week owner at his resort and the split weeks can be reserved after that. How else can they do this?

There may still be another way to treat the most loyal week owners, like they did before, but every week owner is entitled to their full week at the resort in the season they bought and for the size unit and view they bought too. They cannot change that.

 

[DanCali]

There may still be another way to treat the most loyal week owners, like they did before, but every week owner is entitled to their full week at the resort in the season they bought and for the size unit and view they bought too. They cannot change that.

So if one owns at NCV and Marriott keeps Sep, Oct and Nov Platinum weeks for weeks owners and take July, Aug, and Dec weeks for points owners (assuming 50% converted) that satisfies the requirement you state... "every week owner is gets a full week at the resort in the season they bought in the size unit and view they bought...".

Does this seem like a good solution for the weeks owners? Not all weeks in a given season are created equal... This is why I have been stressing that this issue is crucial.

Unless they take an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) I can't see how this would work.

 

[taffy19]

So if one owns at NCV and Marriott keeps Sep, Oct and Nov Platinum weeks for weeks owners and take July, Aug, and Dec weeks for points owners (assuming 50% converted) that satisfies the requirement you state... "every week owner is gets a full week at the resort in the season they bought in the size unit and view they bought...".

Does this seem like a good solution for the weeks owners? Not all weeks in a given season are created equal... This is why I have been stressing that this issue is crucial.

Unless they take an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) I can't see how this would work.

That would be terrible if they did that so I don't believe that this will happen. Everything should stay in balance in weeks, seasons, sizes and views but only the percentages of the weeks put in one pool to the other will change depending on how many people switch. I hope that a computer program is smart enough to do this.

Doug is the expert here as he owns at several point systems and it seems to work according to him and you don't read many complaints about it. If the person designed it, who worked for Disney, then I would have confidence. Do you hear complaints from Disney owners?

They do not even lose much resale value either so I keep hoping that ours will not suffer either. Nobody has control over the economy so that is not Marriott's fault or any other developers'.

The big question is are direct and re-sale buyers treated equally or not except for the MRPs? If they convert, will they become a member of the MRPs too? I assume they will so that makes them equal.

 

[DanCali]

Do you hear complaints from Disney owners?

No, but Disney doesn't have to worry about "legacy" weeks owners.

Marriott is rewriting 20 years of history with a single brush stroke...

 

[tombo]

Doug is the expert here as he owns at several point systems and it seems to work according to him and you don't read many complaints about it. If the person designed it, who worked for Disney, then I would have confidence. Do you hear complaints from Disney owners?

.

If the DVC members who purchased points were suddenly faced with paying big money to convert their points to weeks, and if the NEW weeks program would have advantages and benefits not available to those who refused to convert their DVC points to weeks, yes you would hear plenty of complaints. If the DVC people who converted to weeks had access to inventory before the original DVC points members, if the people who converted to weeks had the only access to any new resorts Disney will build in the future, if the DVC sales reps announced that points were antiquated and going to be of less and less value compared to weeks, and if the new weeks program was the only thing DVC was selling from next week forward, the DVC boards would be lit up and the complaints would be deafening.

DVC launched a points program, sold it to members, kept true to their product, and honored what they promised in their sales presentations. Of course DVC mmembers aren't mad, they got exactly what they purchased.

Marriott on the other hand sold weeks, promised home resort advantages, sold Marriott owners only exchange periods with II, and many other things Marriott sold and implied with their weeks program. Now to make money they are changing their entire system and charging members to convert or lose trade availability and who knows what else. Gosh why would someone be mad that they were sold a lifetime of vacations with the Marriott family and then have Marriott decide that the lifetime they were referring to was in dog years?

 

[SueDonJ]

No, but Disney doesn't have to worry about "legacy" weeks owners.

Marriott is rewriting 20 years of history with a single brush stroke...

Granted, DVC holds its resale value much better than any other system but I believe that's because of what DVC owners have posted here, that DVC has a vested interest in keeping their (at least onsite at WDW and DL) timeshare resorts competitive with the Disney hotels. DVC is a prime example of exercised ROFR impacting resales to a great extent because DVC resale buyers aren't necessarily looking for the best available timeshare in the region, they're looking for the best price possible for a Disney timeshare. If they're consistently undercut by Disney exercising ROFR they don't move on to another system, they increase their offers for DVC points until they're not undercut. Or they give up and buy direct.

But Disney will eventually have some worries greater than even the impact this poor economy has had on DVC resales (which are currently hovering at record low prices for the earliest resorts.) I think the possibility exists for some degree of m/f non-payments as DVC owners' contracts near the termination dates of their RTU points. Last year OKW (the first DVC resort) owners were offered an opportunity to extend their contracts for a price but not all owners elected to extend.

 

[l2trade]

So if one owns at NCV and Marriott keeps Sep, Oct and Nov Platinum weeks for weeks owners and take July, Aug, and Dec weeks for points owners (assuming 50% converted) that satisfies the requirement you state... "every week owner is gets a full week at the resort in the season they bought in the size unit and view they bought...".

Does this seem like a good solution for the weeks owners? Not all weeks in a given season are created equal... This is why I have been stressing that this issue is crucial.

Unless they take an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) I can't see how this would work.

I agree an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) is better than totally scamming NCV platinum owners. It could be an ok compromise, if and only if, owners vote and approve of the new points system and associated rule changes.

It is not fair for a management company to implement any new program that segregates the owner base without proper and prior HOA/owner approval. Folks who bought NCV platinum season bought into the floating season concept with the large sample of total units & owners in mind.

I covered a hypothetical situation similar to this here: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115395

 

[taffy19]

Disney was obviously not a good example but the Disney guy did the program for Marriott and people seem to like that system so I am optimistic that he designed a program that people will want to convert to because the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. It will not be perfect.

Also, there are other systems that have converted and do we hear many complaints about them? I am not aware of it. There will be a problem if owners are going to be treated unequally and then you will hear many complaints and the word will go out and certainly here. The best prospect is the customer they have already and they know that.

Who says that the conversion will be very expensive? I doubt it if they want many people to convert very quickly. The more people convert, the better the new program will work. If it doesn't go fast enough, they may even drop the price for the conversion like they have done the last two years with the condo prices.

 

[tombo]

Who says that the conversion will be very expensive? I doubt it if they want many people to convert very quickly. The more people convert, the better the new program will work. If it doesn't go fast enough, they may even drop the price for the conversion like they have done the last two years with the condo prices.

If I am wrong and the entry price is reasonable I will gladly eat my words and probably join (after finding out the details) for 3 years with the option to renew as long as I keep my deeded week whether I decide to remain in points or return to weeks at the end of the 3 year trial.

Most resorts I am familiar with charge $1000's to convert weeks to points which is what i am assuming Marriott will do. If they allow you to join for $300 or less with $200 or less per year in internal exchange fees and administration costs, I will probably join and my posts will have been much ado about nothing. I hope that is the case.

 

[l2trade]

I think Disney is a great example in that DVC points program is what all owners bought and agreed to. I am not a fan of unilateral and secretive developer changes such as this, that impact and divides up the reservation system for all owners without at least an owner vote approving of said change.

 

[PerryM]

What's for leftovers tonight?

I agree an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) is better than totally scamming NCV platinum owners. It could be an ok compromise, if and only if, owners vote and approve of the new points system and associated rule changes.

It is not fair for a management company to implement any new program that segregates the owner base without proper and prior HOA/owner approval. Folks who bought NCV platinum season bought into the floating season concept with the large sample of total units & owners in mind.

I covered a hypothetical situation similar to this here: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115395

Folks, look at your deed and it simply states you can make a reservation, of 7 days or a 4/3 split, during your SEASON. I sure don't remember anything else promised.

Marriott will stick to that - you can have the worst week in your season and it will take all the best.

There's nothing to stop them that I can think of, and they can use a hundred thousand units to make 13 month and 12 month reservations a snap for their members.

Well, unless Marriott morphs into a warm and fuzzy timeshare developer...

It's like others here say - "They can't take that ability away from you" - correct you are entitled to leftovers.

 

[taffy19]

I agree an equal proportion of every week in a particular season (based on how many owners converted) is better than totally scamming NCV platinum owners. It could be an ok compromise, if and only if, owners vote and approve of the new points system and associated rule changes.

It is not fair for a management company to implement any new program that segregates the owner base without proper and prior HOA/owner approval. Folks who bought NCV platinum season bought into the floating season concept with the large sample of total units & owners in mind.

I covered a hypothetical situation similar to this here: http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115395

I believe that a smart computer program can keep track of every resort of the weeks they have in their seasons. They will have to do the same for the view units too and the sizes or am I wrong here? No wonder it took them so long.

What about all the different arrival and departure dates that we didn't have before? I can assure you that maintenance fees will go up a lot with this new flexible system because of the extra staff they need to do the housekeeping plus the wear and tear.

Did I read somewhere yesterday that there are a lot of delinquencies too so that is another cost that the owners will have to bear. Owning a timeshare is becoming a burden and especially where the developers stays in charge. JMHO.

 

[SueDonJ]

The reason I brought up Disney's future problems with RTU contacts expiring isn't to say that it would be a bad idea for Marriott to use Disney's template as an overlay exchange system, but rather to say that every system has its good and bad points. I think Disney is a very good example of how Marriott could roll this out - DVC points are connected to a home resort and they cannot sell more points than what a particular resort's intervals will support. If Marriott did implement something like this then it could be a simple points overlay system for exchanges rather than a trust system, which appears to be the most difficult to marry with a weeks-based system.

Disney does somehow manage to equitably handle their inventory between owners staying at their home resort on points (with a reservation priority over owners of other DVC resorts,) owners staying at other DVC resorts on points, owners staying at Disney hotels or cruise line on points, Disney-processed external exchanges within RCI, and cash rentals split between developer-held points and owners points deposited for external exchanges, all the while keeping resale values stronger than any other timeshare system's. What's to say Marriott can't manage to do the same thing, except that Marriott will also have to equitably manage "legacy weeks" at the same time. It can be done, I'm convinced of that, and at a certain price point it will be seen by weeks owners as a fair value. We can't know what that price point is for us individually until the details are made available, but I don't think that a person has to go solely on blind faith in order to think that there's a possibility Marriott could be doing something good here.

 

[taffy19]

Folks, look at your deed and it simply states you can make a reservation, of 7 days or a 4/3 split, during your SEASON. I sure don't remember anything else promised.

Marriott will stick to that - you can have the worst week in your season and it will take all the best.

There's nothing to stop them that I can think of, and they can use a hundred thousand units to make 13 month and 12 month reservations a snap for their members.

Well, unless Marriott morphs into a warm and fuzzy timeshare developer...

It's like others here say - "They can't take that ability away from you" - correct you are entitled to leftovers.

I don't believe it Perry. They would shoot themselves in the foot to make all their present customers upset. It would hurt their bottom line. They need happy customers as they are their best prospects.

 

[dougp26364]

I'm not sure why folks are expecting that owners will NEED to sit through a sales presentation in order to be able to join whatever new system might be rolled out. We're almost halfway through this year and a whole lot of owners have already used their weeks, haven't they? (We have.) Plus our sales rep in Hilton Head has already told us to email or call her with any questions when it's rolled out. She didn't say anything at all about seeing us again in the near future.

I don't think Marriott is going to expect any of us to schedule separate time from our owned weeks, using cash or MRP rentals, just to visit with our sales reps for this. It appears they'll have to set it up as a "from home" email/telephone offer if they want participation from as many owners as possible.

I'm sure they won't. But they will leverage it to get you into a sales presentation when people normally wouldn't go.

 

[dougp26364]

If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy. Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.

I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.

Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.

But who knows...

If it's just joining a points based membership, it's apparently legal. I never set foot into a DRI sales room to convert our Polo Towers weeks to points. It was all done over the phone. For that matter, doesn't Marriott have a department that sells over the phone? And how do all those E-bay sales take place? I thought E-bay was on the internet.

 

[dougp26364]

As I said, you are asking the salesmen to sell the free gift for nothing. Your theory gets a qualified prospect in front of the sales people by offering a gift (the opportunity to convert weeks to points), that the sales person has to sell, but Marriott will not pay them to convince the owner to convert (receive their gift). Can you imagine if they had to get money out of the prospects for the "free" Disney tickets before they could even have a chance to sell something that they would be paid on?

The sales force will be paid commission to convert owners or they would not discuss conversions with owners and it would instead be handled in the mail or by 800 numbers. The sales force will be paid without a doubt because as we all know sales people will be needed to convince large numbers of owners to convert a week they already own, into a points program with no proven track record, and in the process convince them to pay thousands for the priviledge of becoming a Marriott Points Member!

Having worked in both sales and sales management, I can tell you you're wrong. If there is any sort of payment it's going to be a token payment. The big draw is getting people into the sales room and they're going to leverage this to accomplish this goal.

The goal isn't going to be making money on the conversion. The goal is to make new sales......period.

 

[rthib]

can we stop the nonsense now

so now that two of the supposed deadlines have passed, can we admit that there is nothing to this nonsense.

Right niw in order to believe this you have to believe that Marriott has super secret security that noone has been able to penatrate except for a few sales reps.

no one else anywhere but hear is even hinting about this.

go on with your lives, this is nothing more than the 5(or sixth) aniversery of this same rumor.

 

[SueDonJ]

I'm sure they won't. But they will leverage it to get you into a sales presentation when people normally wouldn't go.

But don't they already do that? We were at SurfWatch a couple weeks ago and I had every intention of meeting with our sales rep while we there just to catch up and see if she could help us with our MRP use. I sent her an email before we got there to let her know I'd be looking for her and she answered that she was looking forward to it.

Then a couple days before the trip we got a call from the SurfWatch "concierge" asking if we needed anything. I told her we'd be talking to our sales rep and were fine otherwise. She pushed the "sales presentation" anyway and said we could schedule our appointment with our sales rep as an informational session. "Fine, but we're not buying anything and she already knows that."

Well of course we got to the appointment and our sales rep, who I think is GREAT, was confused why we scheduled a sales appointment! She'd prepared for us and had a few weeks in mind that would work with our portfolio, as she should have if the concierge told her we scheduled a sales call. It only took a few minutes of explaining before she and we were on the same page and we got the MRP answers we were there for. In the future we'll make sure to schedule directly with her for info sessions, rather than relying on the "concierge" to blindside her or us.

(Tom, be prepared, it sounds like you might be walking in to the same setup. And for what it's worth, there are already all sorts of celebratory signs up because it's the 25th MVCI anniversary.)

 

[PerryM]

I don't believe it Perry. They would shoot themselves in the foot to make all their present customers upset. It would hurt their bottom line. They need happy customers as they are their best prospects.

How will folks know? Who will tell them they are getting screwed?

Most owners will simply believe that Marriott would never do such a thing and blame something else - bad luck, global warming, oil spills, etc.

 

[dougp26364]

You are likely right that there will not be a NEED to see a salesperson but I am sure that Marriott would prefer if you do. (I don't mean you personally but owners in general.) It will be a great opportunity for them to sell more. Think of the situation where someone gets 20,000 points for their ts but having 25,000 would open them up to many more possible choices. Bam, how would you like to buy some more points? Oh and by the way, if you take advantage of our one time only conversion special, you get a 10% discount on those points.

Finally someone with a thinking cap on. If Marriott is selling strictly points similar to DVC, then they can sell partial weeks (thus no use for EOY weeks anymore) of points packages. DRI doesn't sell weeks. They sell points packages in 5,000, 10,000 and 15,000 groups.

You're week will be worth X number of points in the new program Mr. Jones. Where do you like to vacation the most. How would you like to be able to go there during high season every year without worry about exchange power. Well, you're week is worth this, it's going to take that to get there. All you would need are a few more thousand points.........

The conversion is a sales tool........not the sale.