Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[jlf58]

I left on good terms. It was an amazing first 6 years and by the 7th year I needed a change.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm Fletch? Any relationship to why you bailed? Rhetorical, don't answer that. Shall we start in DC?

 

[dougp26364]

Big difference. When you buy resale from an individual Marriott doesn't make any money so they don't care if the sale falls through or if the paperwork is messed up and not deeded correctly. They hope the resale falls through so the buyer might instead buy from Marriott.

When it is Marriott converting to points or selling additional points it is Marriott who's sale and profits will fall through if the customer backs out with buyers remorse, because of delays in the mail, etc. They want a sales person to close the sale, a manager to make sure it stays closed, and a signed contract in hand making people feel as though they can't back out if they want to. If everything is done by mail there is too much lag time where buyer's remorse can and often will set in. In addition Marriott's closing ratio on conversions through mailers and web site will be much lower than one on one with sales pros and everyone (especially Marriott) knows it.

If timeshare weeks, timeshare points, timeshare conversions, etc would sell without employing highly paid, high pressure sales forces then Marriott, DVC, HGC, etc would not employ salesmen to market their resorts. Timeshares (other than dirt cheap resales) do not sell themselves, they must be sold to somebody by somebody.

OK, allow me to rephrase. I've purchased one developer week via phone/mail from DRI. I've purchased one resale week via mail/phone/e-mail. I've switched from a weeks based system to a points based system via phone/mail/e-mail. When we decided to exercise an option with Marriott to buy a second EOY week at Grand Chateua, all transactions were handled via phone/mail/E-mail. All of this CAN be done without setting foot in on a sales floor and, I have personal experience doing so with Marriott.

I have not doubt that Marriott would prefer to get owners into a presentation but, it's not required.

 

[PerryM]

What's bigger than colossal?

OK, allow me to rephrase. I've purchased one developer week via phone/mail from DRI. I've purchased one resale week via mail/phone/e-mail. I've switched from a weeks based system to a points based system via phone/mail/e-mail. When we decided to exercise an option with Marriott to buy a second EOY week at Grand Chateua, all transactions were handled via phone/mail/E-mail. All of this CAN be done without setting foot in on a sales floor and, I have personal experience doing so with Marriott.

I have not doubt that Marriott would prefer to get owners into a presentation but, it's not required.

I bought 3 groups of WM credits and all were done on a 4 page document that just needed to be notarized - all resale of course. Our Gold Summit Watch was from a reseller and all done over the phone and by mail.

However, if Marriott does go the do-it-yourself conversion route then end of Marriott is near because this will become more than a colossal failure...

 

[PerryM]

I suspect we have aided the salesmen tremendously by this thread to add to the resale/conversion scare tactics.

While I and others have not particularly found our salespeople to misrepresent or outright lie (and I think while this may be in dispute, it is not in dispute that they are NOT the worst, at least) The one thing that seems to be almost universal among salestalk is the allegations that resales people are treated differently, therefore it is better to buy direct. Some are told their files will have a flag and therefore the desk will dis them, others that their reservations will be impacted in some way (even to the parking lot views) etc., etc.

Many of these allegations are only found to be false by the unsuspecting person who stumbled into the TS presentation not knowing the deal only upon getting feedback from actual resale purchasers and their experiences, or by other investigation, but since the salesperson is presumably good at the job, it will be enough to make them uncertain - hopefully long enough to outlast the recission period. (Other than the one valid point that resale does not allow conversion to MR's - which can be verified by contract) Because it is so hard to verify, people are often unwilling to "take the chance on resale" and buy a guaranteed product directly. They don't always realise how this purchasing mentality doesn't equate/apply the same way as material goods in this instance, due to the nature of the product. (I'm only referring to the unsuspecting, not those who buy direct knowing what is fact and fiction)

So my point is: if some of the salespeople choose to continue to rely on scare tactics - and since many of the scare tactics previously used relied on perception and not something that was easily verified - we have now given them several more things to scare folks with - that can't easily be verified. And even veteran, seasoned TUGGERs (I'm not in this group yet) will have a hard time determining or verifying for some time to come. Meanwhile, the salespeople have now added the following (regardless of the actual truth, which even they might not really know) to their arsenal (if they choose to use it) for both purchases AND conversions:

"your week probably won't have access to as many prime weeks w/everyone else converting"

"your current prime week still won't do as well with the new system implemented"

"you've been doing pretty well w/your re-sale weeks, but now they REALLY don't equate with developer so you'll want to switch"

"in other points systems where there has been an opportunity to convert, those who didn't have a harder time finding good trades, and while they still get their deeded rights, they don't get all the extras they used to, so you should convert now while we have goodies"

"if you buy resale, points will stay reasonably firm in price, but weeks will be worth nothing"

"the inventory you CAN access with a resale or unconverted week will be greatly restricted, and while you can still trade in II, you will have different access and no preference anymore if you don't convert or still choose to buy re-sale"

etc.

I actually see the scare tactics being useful for both any new sales and for the "potential" conversion. (The one thing I believe is a fact is that a new system is coming - what it means to me is very much "potential and speculative")

and, finally, they can say "hey, if you don't believe me and want some other opinions first, here's a long thread going into great detail about what resale will now mean written by many people who've been TS for a long time and have a lot of collective knowledge and look at the title and all the concerns if you don't go to points..." :ignore:

Today I'm looking at the empty glass which takes a look at this amazing wealth of brainpower/(or not so much) spent on this idea and wonders how the salespeople look at it and make use of the same brainpower and figure out how to use it to their advantage...

If I've helped any Marriott salesreps, I do take PayPal donations - contact me for more details...

 

[tombo]

If my posts have helped any Marriott sales people in any way I can assure you that it was totally unintended .

 

[dougp26364]

I bought 3 groups of WM credits and all were done on a 4 page document that just needed to be notarized - all resale of course. Our Gold Summit Watch was from a reseller and all done over the phone and by mail.

However, if Marriott does go the do-it-yourself conversion route then end of Marriott is near because this will become more than a colossal failure...

You don't think they'll try to sell more points if you elect to convert over the phone? I know when I converted our DRI weeks, I was offered a points package to get us to Gold Elite, explained the benefits of being Gold Elite and offered the option of purchasing those points and getting the conversion fee waived. There's going to be an initial push to get members converted. I anticipate it will be relatively easy and cost effective in the begining. They'll want to create a good base of customers to drive this system from the very begining.

For you, no matter what Marriott does, they'll be a colosal failure. You just can't envision it being any other way.

 

[lapdawg]

Looks like it's not speculation anymore. I got this email from the rep who sold us our TS 3 years ago. For the record, this is the first we've heard from her since the sale:


Dear xxxxxx,

How are you? I see you have been using your week as you wanted to. I hope you are enjoying it very much. Anytime you should have any questions or concerns feel free to phone me.

FYI

Marriott is changing on June 17th. This is the last time anyone will be able to purchase a vacation ownership week from Marriott with our current program and purchase incentives.

These purchase incentives end on June 16th.

If you should know of anyone that has an interest in owning with us either an every year or every other year ownership week do not let this opportunity pass them by.

I have a very limited number of every other year ownership weeks for sale at 60% off.

Phone me directly at xxxxxxx or cell in the eve or weekends xxxxxxxx.



Here are some examples with the 60% incentive:

Maui Original ..1 bed ov $15,480, of $15,840….. 2 bedroom gv $18,560, ov $22,840, of $26,840

New Napili Tower with full kitchen Island view 2 bedroom $19,720., OF $31,080.

Barony Beach Gold $9,120 2 bedroom on the beach, 1 left.

Grande Vista 2 bed Platinum $11,000, Gold $8,960, 3 bedroom Grande Vista Platinum $14,360, Gold $11,080.,

Beachplace Platinum $13,120,Gold $8,880,

Ocean Pointe Platinum $15,560, Gold $10,360.

Vegas 1 bedroom $9,120, Newport Coast Platinum $15,360, Gold $10,800

Shadow Ridge Enclaves, Palm Desert Platinum $11,880, Tahoe Ski 2 bed $18,680, Summer $13,160.

Canyon Villas, Phoenix Platinum $12,680. Gold $8,720.

Marco Island 2 bed.Gold $14,240, Silver $11,960 and Platinum $25,760.

I do have a few others but just 1 week here and there.

I have every year ownership weeks with 15-35% off depending on resort and purchase price.

Marco Gold (Summer and late Fall) is a fantastic deal for every year 2 bedroom $23,140.

Have a great day!

 

[GregT]

Looks like it's not speculation anymore. I got this email from the rep who sold us our TS 3 years ago. For the record, this is the first we've heard from her since the sale:


Dear xxxxxx,

How are you? I see you have been using your week as you wanted to. I hope you are enjoying it very much. Anytime you should have any questions or concerns feel free to phone me.

FYI

Marriott is changing on June 17th. This is the last time anyone will be able to purchase a vacation ownership week from Marriott with our current program and purchase incentives.

These purchase incentives end on June 16th.

If you should know of anyone that has an interest in owning with us either an every year or every other year ownership week do not let this opportunity pass them by.

I have a very limited number of every other year ownership weeks for sale at 60% off.

Phone me directly at xxxxxxx or cell in the eve or weekends xxxxxxxx.



Here are some examples with the 60% incentive:

Maui Original ..1 bed ov $15,480, of $15,840….. 2 bedroom gv $18,560, ov $22,840, of $26,840

New Napili Tower with full kitchen Island view 2 bedroom $19,720., OF $31,080.

Barony Beach Gold $9,120 2 bedroom on the beach, 1 left.

Grande Vista 2 bed Platinum $11,000, Gold $8,960, 3 bedroom Grande Vista Platinum $14,360, Gold $11,080.,

Beachplace Platinum $13,120,Gold $8,880,

Ocean Pointe Platinum $15,560, Gold $10,360.

Vegas 1 bedroom $9,120, Newport Coast Platinum $15,360, Gold $10,800

Shadow Ridge Enclaves, Palm Desert Platinum $11,880, Tahoe Ski 2 bed $18,680, Summer $13,160.

Canyon Villas, Phoenix Platinum $12,680. Gold $8,720.

Marco Island 2 bed.Gold $14,240, Silver $11,960 and Platinum $25,760.

I do have a few others but just 1 week here and there.

I have every year ownership weeks with 15-35% off depending on resort and purchase price.

Marco Gold (Summer and late Fall) is a fantastic deal for every year 2 bedroom $23,140.

Have a great day!

I'm meeting with my sales rep tomorrow -- interesting that there's no Ko Olina on this list -- but he had told me that it was sold out at the 60% off pricing.

 

[wvacations]

For what it is worth, I did an online Chat at my-vactionclub.com and asked if there was any truth to the rumor that a new program comes out next week. He said "Not that I have heard of." Then proceeded to say there are always rumors online about MVCI, including the rumor for 6 years that Marriott is building a club in Tuscony...which they are not.

Take it or leave it!!!!

Off to Maui in 5 days. I'll be there if/when the new program rolls out next week. Hope they still give towels to resale owners, or I'll have to drive over to Costco to get some!

Aloha !!!

 

[scrapngen]

If my posts have helped any Marriott sales people in any way I can assure you that it was totally unintended .

Got it, Tombo, and your posts do not suggest that as your intention. I appreciate your thoughtful posts, even as I am optimistic rather than pessimistic about the coming changes. But "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." Don't want to be that gal either. Resale, MF fee escalations as reallocations are made, everyone has the potential to be affected in some way even with fixed weeks always used at home resort.

-Anyway, I was not suggesting that people were intentionally trying to feed arguments out there to help the sales force, just that it is very possible that the whole thread has helped them in very unintended ways...

I admit I kind of went to the conspiracy theory side of things. I took a "what if"... the sales force had purposefully started the rumour 5 years ago (not Marriott per se, but the sales people) ...well, IF that was the case, then surely they were harvesting the outcome of those rumours now. Again, don't really think such a devious plan was enacted.

However, it is clear that both Marriott and sales force Marriott know about TUG. I do NOT think it is a stretch to posit that they'd take an interest in this thread and use it somewhat differently than say..many/most of the other posters and readers. So I also don't think it a stretch that the negative speculation here might be spun into just another reason that "buying direct or converting now is the only way to go. Do it before you leave the room!!"

Only a few more days until we start a new thread... :

 

[Ireland'sCall]

Weds next 16th is the announcement

Marriott are running a Webinar Business Update to certain Advisory Board members about the new system .It's planned for evening time in Europe so it suggests a pm time in the US.
G

 

[dougp26364]

Looks like it's not speculation anymore. I got this email from the rep who sold us our TS 3 years ago. For the record, this is the first we've heard from her since the sale:


Dear xxxxxx,

How are you? I see you have been using your week as you wanted to. I hope you are enjoying it very much. Anytime you should have any questions or concerns feel free to phone me.

FYI

Marriott is changing on June 17th. This is the last time anyone will be able to purchase a vacation ownership week from Marriott with our current program and purchase incentives.

These purchase incentives end on June 16th.

If you should know of anyone that has an interest in owning with us either an every year or every other year ownership week do not let this opportunity pass them by.

I have a very limited number of every other year ownership weeks for sale at 60% off.

Phone me directly at xxxxxxx or cell in the eve or weekends xxxxxxxx.



Here are some examples with the 60% incentive:

Maui Original ..1 bed ov $15,480, of $15,840….. 2 bedroom gv $18,560, ov $22,840, of $26,840

New Napili Tower with full kitchen Island view 2 bedroom $19,720., OF $31,080.

Barony Beach Gold $9,120 2 bedroom on the beach, 1 left.

Grande Vista 2 bed Platinum $11,000, Gold $8,960, 3 bedroom Grande Vista Platinum $14,360, Gold $11,080.,

Beachplace Platinum $13,120,Gold $8,880,

Ocean Pointe Platinum $15,560, Gold $10,360.

Vegas 1 bedroom $9,120, Newport Coast Platinum $15,360, Gold $10,800

Shadow Ridge Enclaves, Palm Desert Platinum $11,880, Tahoe Ski 2 bed $18,680, Summer $13,160.

Canyon Villas, Phoenix Platinum $12,680. Gold $8,720.

Marco Island 2 bed.Gold $14,240, Silver $11,960 and Platinum $25,760.

I do have a few others but just 1 week here and there.

I have every year ownership weeks with 15-35% off depending on resort and purchase price.

Marco Gold (Summer and late Fall) is a fantastic deal for every year 2 bedroom $23,140.

Have a great day!

I'm glad this will be coming to an end soon. I really want to know where I stand with our two EOY weeks. I'm hoping they can be converted but, it sounds as if that won't be the case.

 

[JimIg23]

I'm glad this will be coming to an end soon. I really want to know where I stand with our two EOY weeks. I'm hoping they can be converted but, it sounds as if that won't be the case.

Until they actually tell us, the sounds we have are our own opinions only. I hope so too if the program is good. I bet though, if you buy more points they will be able to magically convert those EOYs or resales......

 

[m61376]

I'm glad this will be coming to an end soon. I really want to know where I stand with our two EOY weeks. I'm hoping they can be converted but, it sounds as if that won't be the case.

At least you've been enjoying yours. I can't imagine them selling EOY weeks today and introducing what they will promote as the next best thing since sliced bread before the rescission period is even over for some purchasers and excluding them before they've even closed. Talking about creating owner discontent!

I, too, am hopeful that Marriott will do tight by its owners and that this new program will give more flexibility, but I am not unhappy with the current ownership and would be very happy for status quo. I do hope that IF the program eliminates home resort priority that a dual inventory program will work seamlessly both now and in ten years down the road. For me, the loss of home resort priority would be a deal breaker, regardless of the offer.

I am also hopeful that Marriott will do right by all its owners and not use this to stick it to resale buyers, who have loyally been supporting Marriott simply by virtue of the fact that they pay those MF's like everybody else.

I guess by this time next week we should know where we all stand and hopefully have it pretty much analyzed as to the pros and cons. I'm relying on all those with experience using point systems to post the pros and cons as they see it. I hope Perry will join in; even though his viewpoint is a tad on the negative side, that perspective is very helpful. Personally, I'd rather be forewarned and, if I opt to join, go in with open eyes.

I'd like to see a low fee to join (less than $500) for everyone, home resort priority (perhaps 12 months limited to current season owners booking at least 7 days and 10 or 11 months for anyone else), a fair, objective valuation (based on real market rental rates charged by Marriott), a Flexchange-type discount, the ability to borrow or bank points for one year to the next and, optimally, the ability to rent a fraction of points if needed. I think developer direct purchasers should be given the added bonus of a good conversion to rewards points option so that perk really goes back to being one. That's my wish list; let's see if they come close.

 

[PerryM]

You don't think they'll try to sell more points if you elect to convert over the phone? I know when I converted our DRI weeks, I was offered a points package to get us to Gold Elite, explained the benefits of being Gold Elite and offered the option of purchasing those points and getting the conversion fee waived. There's going to be an initial push to get members converted. I anticipate it will be relatively easy and cost effective in the begining. They'll want to create a good base of customers to drive this system from the very begining.

For you, no matter what Marriott does, they'll be a colosal failure. You just can't envision it being any other way.

I don't know all the real estate laws of the various states so I can't comment on if Marriott can hawk timeshare sales via a cold call. Every time I see an ad for the developers it's followed by hundreds of words in 6pt type so I would imagine they'd have to play a recording, at 10X speed, of all the warnings. Just a guess.

I think if I call in and start the sale that's a different thing - again just a guess.

Marriott isn't going to offer this for free and its going to be very hard to explain turning in deeds for a scrap of paper and Points that exist in hyperspace.

And what about all the folks who own a timeshare and don't know how to turn on a computer?

1 week and we will see...

 

[PerryM]

Marriott salesreps listen up

I dropped a hint about taking donations for helping you guys craft your sales pitch.

As of this morning I haven't received any donations from you guys.

Come on you have a conscience and its telling you to donate.

Oh, wait a minute...

 

[tombo]

Got it, Tombo, and your posts do not suggest that as your intention. I appreciate your thoughtful posts, even as I am optimistic rather than pessimistic about the coming changes. But "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." Don't want to be that gal either. Resale, MF fee escalations as reallocations are made, everyone has the potential to be affected in some way even with fixed weeks always used at home resort.

-Anyway, I was not suggesting that people were intentionally trying to feed arguments out there to help the sales force, just that it is very possible that the whole thread has helped them in very unintended ways...

:

I can only assume you are correct. Some enterprising Marriott sales people will present our fears of possible/probable upcoming changes to convince some buyers to buy retail and avoid resale. That is a shame but can't be helped because I am sure their sales force reads this forum with interest to prepare them for upcoming objections from owners during the conversion sales pitches.


Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO. Will it be as bad as some scenarios presented by myself and others here? Probably not, but you will lose some inventory availability, exchange priorities, something if they do roll out a points program. You ave to have points advantages to get owners to convert, and to give points members advantages means putting weeks members at a disadvantage.

Marriott has a finite number of weeks (prime weeks and blue weeks) at a limited number of resorts. Marriott is not bulding new resorts to launch a points program, they are splitting the current program into 2 pieces to launch points. Once they go to points every time an owner swaps to points you will have access to less weeks than you did before and that is irrefutable. How Marriott will allocate the inventory between the points and weeks groups has to be of concern. Will they give the actual week on the deed that swapped to points inventory, or simply a week within that owner's usage season at marriott's discretion? If the owner converts a platinum deeded week 42 at a resort that floats from 18 to 42 it will make huge differences what week Marriott puts into points availability. If they put week 26 or 27 into points for points exchange(a platinum season week) there goes a week everyone wants that is out of the weeks pool into the points pool. You have no right to the deeded week on your deed, just the right to exchange wthin your designated season BASED ON AVAILABILITY. If Marriott siphons of larger proportions of prime weeks than marginal weeks in each season, the access to GOOD weeks inventory will be severelly impacted. Some here say good ole Marriott won't do that. Ths is the same good ole Marriott that is changing the entire exchanging dynamic of what you purchased with no vote from owners. Blindly trust at your peril!

By the way many like to point out DVC points and compare the 2 bragging on DVC owner satisfaction and feeling that Marriott points owners will feel the same warm fuzzy feeling towards Marriott that DVC owners feel to Disney. You are comparing apples to oranges here because this is very different. Marriott for decades sold weeks, we bought weeks, and out of the blue they decide to pull the rug out from under owners and swap ships mid stream. On the other hand DVC sold points, people bought points, and owners haven't had to ADAPT and PAY DVC to swap to a weeks program that they didn't sign up for. Some Marriott supporters are like why is everyone upset? It is going to be like DVC. Well we didn't buy DVC like points, we didn't buy Bluegreen points, we didn't buy Diamond or any ther kind of points, we bought Marriott weeks and Marriott is changing the whole dynamic of what we purchased.

One last thing, some have said why are some owners here so up in arms? This point system was designed by a DVC guy, so it will be great. DVC owners are happy. Well see how happy DVC owners were when DVC swapped exchange companies from II to RCI. Read the posts here on TUG. These people were fighting mad. How could DVC forsake them after all the money they had spent? Why wouldn't DVC get a vote from owners before changing exchange companies? It was a horrible thing to do to members, etc, etc, etc. Many are still mad and many quit II and didn't join RCI. If they were this mad about DVC changing exchange companies, imagine how mad they would have been if DVC was changing their whole exchange system to weeks, charging members conversion fees to swap, and having salesmen give thinly veiled threats that to not swap to weeks would cause loss of available inventory and exchange opportunities. Perhaps then DVC owners would be as mad at and disgusted with DVC as some of us are with Marriott!

 

[PerryM]

At least you've been enjoying yours. I can't imagine them selling EOY weeks today and introducing what they will promote as the next best thing since sliced bread before the rescission period is even over for some purchasers and excluding them before they've even closed. Talking about creating owner discontent!

I, too, am hopeful that Marriott will do tight by its owners and that this new program will give more flexibility, but I am not unhappy with the current ownership and would be very happy for status quo. I do hope that IF the program eliminates home resort priority that a dual inventory program will work seamlessly both now and in ten years down the road. For me, the loss of home resort priority would be a deal breaker, regardless of the offer.

I am also hopeful that Marriott will do right by all its owners and not use this to stick it to resale buyers, who have loyally been supporting Marriott simply by virtue of the fact that they pay those MF's like everybody else.

I guess by this time next week we should know where we all stand and hopefully have it pretty much analyzed as to the pros and cons. I'm relying on all those with experience using point systems to post the pros and cons as they see it. I hope Perry will join in; even though his viewpoint is a tad on the negative side, that perspective is very helpful. Personally, I'd rather be forewarned and, if I opt to join, go in with open eyes.

I'd like to see a low fee to join (less than $500) for everyone, home resort priority (perhaps 12 months limited to current season owners booking at least 7 days and 10 or 11 months for anyone else), a fair, objective valuation (based on real market rental rates charged by Marriott), a Flexchange-type discount, the ability to borrow or bank points for one year to the next and, optimally, the ability to rent a fraction of points if needed. I think developer direct purchasers should be given the added bonus of a good conversion to rewards points option so that perk really goes back to being one. That's my wish list; let's see if they come close.

I can assure you that you will hear from me.

If not, that means I've checked into the great timeshare in the sky - or the black helicopters circling my house got me....

P.S.
I hope the first thing that happens is a .pdf of the actual new system be posted. Until then everything is just hearsay rumors and belong here.

 

[PerryM]

Is it cart in front of horse or ...

I can only assume you are correct. Some enterprising Marriott sales people will present our fears of possible/probable upcoming changes to convince some buyers to buy retail and avoid resale. That is a shame but can't be helped because I am sure their sales force reads this foru with interest.


Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO. Will it be as bad as some scenarios presented by myself and others here? Probably not, but you will lose some inventory availability, exchange priorities, something if they do roll out a points program.

Marriott has a finite number of weeks (prime weeks and blue weeks) at a limited number of resorts. Marriott is not bulding new resorts to launch a points program, they are splitting the current program into 2 pieces to launch points. Once they go to points every time an owner swaps to points you will have access to less weeks than you did before and that is irrefutable. How Marriott will allocate the inventory between the points and weeks groups has to be of concern. Will they give the actual week on the deed that swapped to points inventory, or simply a week within that owner's usage season at marriott's discretion? If the owner converts a platinum deeded week 42 at a resort that floats from 18 to 42 it will make huge differences what week Marriott puts into points availability. If they put week 26 or 27 into points for points exchange(a platinum season week) there goes a week everyone wants that is out of the weeks pool into the points pool. You have no right to the deeded week on your deed, just the right to exchange wthin your designated season BASED ON AVAILABILITY. If Marriott siphons of larger proportions of prime weeks than marginal weeks in each season, the access to GOOD weeks inventory will be severelly impacted. Some here say good ole Marriott won't do that. Ths is the same good ole Marriott that is changing the entire exchanging dynamic of what you purchased with no vote from owners. Blindly trust at your peril!

By the way many like to point out DVC points and compare the 2 bragging on DVC owner satisfaction and feeling that Marriott points owners will feel the same warm fuzzy feeling towards Marriott that DVC owners feel to Disney. You are comparing apples to oranges here because this is very different. Marriott for decades sold weeks, we bought weeks, and out of the blue they decide to pull the rug out from under owners and swap ships mid stream. On the other hand DVC sold points, people bought points, and owners haven't had to ADAPT and PAY DVC to swap to a weeks program that they didn't sign up for. Some Marriott supporters are like why is everyone upset? It is going to be like DVC. Well we didn't buy DVC like points, we didn't buy Bluegreen points, we didn't buy Diamond or any ther kind of points, we bought Marriott weeks and Marriott is changing the whole dynamic of what we purchased.

One last thing, some have said why are some owners here so up in arms? This point system was designed by a DVC guy, so it will be great. DVC owners are happy. Well see how happy DVC owners were when DVC swapped exchange companies from II to RCI. Read the posts here on TUG. These people were fighting mad. They would never get good exchanges again. How could DVC forsake them after all the money they had spent? Why wouldn't DVC get a vote from owners before changing exchange companies? It was a horrible thing to do to members, etc, etc, etc. Many are still mad and many quit II and didn't join RCI. If they were this mad about DVC changing exchange companies, imagine how mad they would have been if DVC was changing their whole exchange system to weeks, charging members conversion fees to swap, and having salesmen give thinly veiled threats that to not swap to weeks would cause loss of available inventory and exchange opportunities. Perhaps then DVC owners would be as mad at and disgusted with DVC as some of us are with Marriott!

We own 3 Toyotas and have bought them for 20+ years - that doesn't mean that I am happy that their product killed lots of folks and they covered it up - they designed those Toyotas too.

Marriott has a lot to prove - they are the ones who are not satisfied with their own system they created and sold for 20 years to 400,000 families.

The proof of their wisdom rests on their shoulders and NOT 400,000 owners who bought into their best design of a timeshare system.

Marriott is admitting that their 20+ year old system is inadequate - just how long have they been covering that up and why should we forgive them for selling something they knew was inferior?

Marriott has to win my loyalty - not the other way around...

 

[dougp26364]

Until they actually tell us, the sounds we have are our own opinions only. I hope so too if the program is good. I bet though, if you buy more points they will be able to magically convert those EOYs or resales......

Not quite our own opinions. Fletch, who was with Marriott sales, was told Marriott won't be able to use EOY weeks. Exactly what that means could be that EOY weeks won't work in the points system, can't be sold in the points system or can't be sold and/or converted into the points system.

What is of concern is that Fletch's understanding was that EOY weeks would not be able to convert to the new system. I'm hoping he misunderstood but my suspicion is he understood perfectly. Just because I want to believe it will be different won't make it so.

At any rate, there's is nothing I can do about what Marriott might or might not do with EOY owners like us. It's a concern and I am a little anxious but, it's not worth worrying about. If I can't convert those weeks there's nothing I can do. I'll just go on the same way we always have and continue to be happy with our ownership.

 

[dougp26364]

At least you've been enjoying yours. I can't imagine them selling EOY weeks today and introducing what they will promote as the next best thing since sliced bread before the rescission period is even over for some purchasers and excluding them before they've even closed. Talking about creating owner discontent!

I, too, am hopeful that Marriott will do tight by its owners and that this new program will give more flexibility, but I am not unhappy with the current ownership and would be very happy for status quo. I do hope that IF the program eliminates home resort priority that a dual inventory program will work seamlessly both now and in ten years down the road. For me, the loss of home resort priority would be a deal breaker, regardless of the offer.

I am also hopeful that Marriott will do right by all its owners and not use this to stick it to resale buyers, who have loyally been supporting Marriott simply by virtue of the fact that they pay those MF's like everybody else.

I guess by this time next week we should know where we all stand and hopefully have it pretty much analyzed as to the pros and cons. I'm relying on all those with experience using point systems to post the pros and cons as they see it. I hope Perry will join in; even though his viewpoint is a tad on the negative side, that perspective is very helpful. Personally, I'd rather be forewarned and, if I opt to join, go in with open eyes.

I'd like to see a low fee to join (less than $500) for everyone, home resort priority (perhaps 12 months limited to current season owners booking at least 7 days and 10 or 11 months for anyone else), a fair, objective valuation (based on real market rental rates charged by Marriott), a Flexchange-type discount, the ability to borrow or bank points for one year to the next and, optimally, the ability to rent a fraction of points if needed. I think developer direct purchasers should be given the added bonus of a good conversion to rewards points option so that perk really goes back to being one. That's my wish list; let's see if they come close.

I've thought about that as well. Even though some of the weeks they're offering are at tempting prices, I'm not tempted enough to buy now knowing the change is near.

I suppose the thing to do would be to buy a week I was interested in at the very last minute, thus reserving the right to rescind the deal should Marriott completely exclude EOY ownership. One could get a bargain price on a week that can be converted or, if Marriott excludes those weeks, rescind the deal and walk away.

 

[m61376]

I can only assume you are correct. Some enterprising Marriott sales people will present our fears of possible/probable upcoming changes to convince some buyers to buy retail and avoid resale. That is a shame but can't be helped because I am sure their sales force reads this forum with interest to prepare them for upcoming objections from owners during the conversion sales pitches.


Anyone who is not concerned and who trusts Marriott blindly to take care of them and what they purchased from Marriott (or resale) is too trusting IMO. Will it be as bad as some scenarios presented by myself and others here? Probably not, but you will lose some inventory availability, exchange priorities, something if they do roll out a points program. You ave to have points advantages to get owners to convert, and to give points members advantages means putting weeks members at a disadvantage.

Marriott has a finite number of weeks (prime weeks and blue weeks) at a limited number of resorts. Marriott is not bulding new resorts to launch a points program, they are splitting the current program into 2 pieces to launch points. Once they go to points every time an owner swaps to points you will have access to less weeks than you did before and that is irrefutable. How Marriott will allocate the inventory between the points and weeks groups has to be of concern. Will they give the actual week on the deed that swapped to points inventory, or simply a week within that owner's usage season at marriott's discretion? If the owner converts a platinum deeded week 42 at a resort that floats from 18 to 42 it will make huge differences what week Marriott puts into points availability. If they put week 26 or 27 into points for points exchange(a platinum season week) there goes a week everyone wants that is out of the weeks pool into the points pool. You have no right to the deeded week on your deed, just the right to exchange wthin your designated season BASED ON AVAILABILITY. If Marriott siphons of larger proportions of prime weeks than marginal weeks in each season, the access to GOOD weeks inventory will be severelly impacted. Some here say good ole Marriott won't do that. Ths is the same good ole Marriott that is changing the entire exchanging dynamic of what you purchased with no vote from owners. Blindly trust at your peril!

By the way many like to point out DVC points and compare the 2 bragging on DVC owner satisfaction and feeling that Marriott points owners will feel the same warm fuzzy feeling towards Marriott that DVC owners feel to Disney. You are comparing apples to oranges here because this is very different. Marriott for decades sold weeks, we bought weeks, and out of the blue they decide to pull the rug out from under owners and swap ships mid stream. On the other hand DVC sold points, people bought points, and owners haven't had to ADAPT and PAY DVC to swap to a weeks program that they didn't sign up for. Some Marriott supporters are like why is everyone upset? It is going to be like DVC. Well we didn't buy DVC like points, we didn't buy Bluegreen points, we didn't buy Diamond or any ther kind of points, we bought Marriott weeks and Marriott is changing the whole dynamic of what we purchased.

One last thing, some have said why are some owners here so up in arms? This point system was designed by a DVC guy, so it will be great. DVC owners are happy. Well see how happy DVC owners were when DVC swapped exchange companies from II to RCI. Read the posts here on TUG. These people were fighting mad. How could DVC forsake them after all the money they had spent? Why wouldn't DVC get a vote from owners before changing exchange companies? It was a horrible thing to do to members, etc, etc, etc. Many are still mad and many quit II and didn't join RCI. If they were this mad about DVC changing exchange companies, imagine how mad they would have been if DVC was changing their whole exchange system to weeks, charging members conversion fees to swap, and having salesmen give thinly veiled threats that to not swap to weeks would cause loss of available inventory and exchange opportunities. Perhaps then DVC owners would be as mad at and disgusted with DVC as some of us are with Marriott!

Very well said!

As for how Marriott determines which week goes into the point pool- wouldn't they either have to acknowledge the week on the deed they are taking back- so that they would then retain the rights to whatever week was on the deed or, alternately, maintain the stance that the week indication was for inventory purposes only and, if that is the case, wouldn't they only be entitled to whatever portion of every week according to the percentage of point weeks versus week weeks (so if 25% of owners convert to points, then 25% of every available arrival date will be in the points pool and 75% left in the weeks pool)? Of course, that would mean the percentages would constantly be in flux, as potentially more people opt in over time.

Legally, can they just arbitrarily decide which week they want to assign to the points pool? I would think (and hope) that it would either be a straight percentage or according to the actual deeded week. If the latter- it will be interesting, because of course the more in demand weeks will be more rewarding for Marriott to convert. And, at least some of those are resale weeks (as a matter of fact, my Plat. Aruba week happens to have one of the highest TDI weeks on the deed).

 

[DanCali]

Legally, can they just arbitrarily decide which week they want to assign to the points pool?

I've been screaming about this topic all day yesterday. I'm glad tombo raised it again. I'm also very glad people are beginning to think about these details rather than count how many units they'll convert before the rules are even out...

The devil is in these types of details.

 

[rickxylon]

Point system & AC's

How would a point system work with Accomodation Certificates (both receiving and using)?

 

[RandR]

I've been screaming about this topic all day yesterday. I'm glad tombo raised it again. I'm also very glad people are beginning to think about these details rather than count how many units they'll convert before the rules are even out...

The devil is in these types of details.

And that is why it will be so important for someone to get paperwork with ALL of the details. Just listening to a sales presentation will not be enough because I am sure that some questions will be left out. So those TUGgers who will be the first to hear about it at their ts please try and get stuff in writing.