Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[tombo]

duplicated by accident, deleted by me

 

[tombo]

Prepare to be surprised.

I'm betting the program isn't going to generate ANY sales comissions for the sales staff. Instead, it's going to put people in the seat for them to take a shot at increasing their ownership. I'd bet Marriott puts something in the way of an incentive to get owners to buy, much like they've been doing in the recent past.

I will be shocked! Like Perry eating crow, so will I, but I feel sure crow is not on my upcoming menu.

Have you ever sold on purely commission basis or managed those who do? I have done both and there is NO WAY that they are going to sell the idea to commission salesmen that they need to really try hard to convince owners to convert to points while explaining to the salesmen that they will not make any money whether the owners convert to points or not. Those salesmen will be telling owners here's the program in a nutshell (as quickly as possible) and then ask you want to convert? Not sure? OK have a good day. You want to think about it? No problem have a good day. You think this is a bad program? I understand, have a good day. Just not sure huh? Feel free to call our 800 number when you decide, bye now.

Marriott has been in this game for years and they know their sales force works hard and sells a lot of inventory because they are paid well if they sell, and they are paid absolutelly NOTHING if they don't.When you are 100% commission the nice couple you personally like who politelly declines to buy just cost you a chance to have had a customer who would have purchased. They might have been likeable but too many of those will leave you broke and eventually fired for lack of production. The rude arrgant couple who you personally despise but who purchases from you earned you a paycheck and is the preferable choice of the two every time.

If Marriott tries to not pay the sales force WELL, the salesmen will revolt, quit, they will not try very hard to sell it to owners ,and the conversion will be a collossal failure. To think that salesmen will work hard to roll out a new program without being paid is like liberals who believe that capitalism is bad and that people will work just as hard without potential to make large incomes. The more income potential there is in a job, the harder and longer motivated people will work. If everyone gets paid the same thing no matter how hard you work or no matter whether you sell or not, why try hard? Good Marriott salesmen are used to making well over $100,000 a year, and Marriott is not going to ask or expect them to spend hours each day pushing a program without paying them very well to sell it.

Marriott is a capitalist company with stock holders who believe in profits and they are not going to roll out a program like this without incentivizing the sales force to the max to get the salesmen's most enthusiastic sales presentations and to get them to agressivelly sell points while overcoming objections. Board meetings with Marriott stock holders would not go well if it was announced that they rolled out a new points program at millions of dollars in expenses for the good of the owners and that they don't plan on making major profits on a major overhaul of their timeshare system! This is a program designed by Marriott for no other reason than to make profit for Marriott by fleecing current owners, and they will reward all who help them make this a success including mgt, the stockholders, and especially the sales force!

Oops, they won't actually reward everyone. Marriott is going to penalize weeks owners who won't pay the extortion and convert to points. JMHO.

 

[FlyerBobcat]

Please try to find out the answer to the $100MM question... how does the inventory get allocated to the points system versus weeks.

For example - say a resort has 2 seasons. Gold is 1-26 and Platinum is 27-52. Now half of the Platinum convert to points... do they (i) take half of each week from 27-52 into the points system? (ii) take the deeded weeks of those who converted to the points system. (iii) do they take the most desirable weeks to the points system (say all July, August, and holiday weeks).

If you can't get a straight answer, we'll have good reason to suspect there is some monkey business going on...

I will try. Although disguised as an information session, I expect it to be a sales pitch with at least some level of pressure (although I was told it would not be). The part on the ability to cancel was based on the fact that I know my wife will not be a fan of going to this. I tried to schedule this "alone", but no dice....

Perry: Loved your comments to me on a previous post. :rofl:

 

[tombo]

I will try. Although disguised as an information session, I expect it to be a sales pitch with at least some level of pressure (although I was told it would not be). The part on the ability to cancel was based on the fact that I know my wife will not be a fan of going to this. I tried to schedule this "alone", but no dice....

Perry: Loved your comments to me on a previous post. :rofl:

You have your answer already as to whether this is a sales presentation wth pressure, it is going to be. For informative meetings you can come alone. For sales meetings BOTH SPOUSES have to be there because they remove the objection of "I have to discuss it with my spouse" and they want to make sure they have the decision maker present so that they can overcome any objections that either spouse might have. This is going to be a sales presentation with pressure and I must be psychic because I feel sure that you will get a one time chance at your informative meeting to convert to points at an unbelievably low price price with additional bonus offers that will never be offered again lol.

 

[PerryM]

Can we get real here.....

Marriott is a hugely successful sales company - they sell reservations to hotel rooms that, most of the time, they don't own, they just manage and get a commission for doing so.

When folks talk about a sales company not offering commissions to their salesreps and magically that makes things better I question that logic.

If I were in Marriott's shoes and had to release this new sales system next week I would want it to go viral among the owners and that means enthusiastic salesreps who can trade in their 5-series BMW for a 7-series BMW and that means HUGE commissions.

It's the salesreps that will make or break this new sales system - for Marriott to hold hands with their owners and leave the salesreps to sit aside and hum Kumbaya is ludicrous to me.

I would expect the salesreps to work so hard that they have crashes in their 5-series BMW, get the insurance money and upgrade to a 7-series.

But that's just me...

 

[dougp26364]

I dont think this will be true. A company wont (I should say shouldnt) ask their sales people to spend several hours a day to get owners to sign up for the new system and not get a penny out of it. Unless the reps are going to be told not to worry about current owner conversions and Marriott will handle them over the phone or something.

Sure they will. It happens more often than you know. Sales is a numbers game. The more people you talk to, the greater the number of sales you'll make. Current owners are so much better prospects than Joe Tourist off the street coming in for a free gift. The conversion is what will get people back into the sales room instead of the free gift AND, it's getting better qualified prospects into the sales room AND it's getting people back into the saleroom who have purchased before. If we are to believe the numbers, which indicate only a small percentage are resale buyers, they'll be getting people who have purchased direct from Marriott back onto the sales floor. Add to this a program that Marriott is certain will have great appeal to it's owners and it's likely to be akin to shooting fish in a barrel for the really good salesmen.

 

[dougp26364]

Have you ever sold on purely commission basis or managed those who do?

Yes I have. The good salesmen will see the advantage they gain. The poor salesmen will see it as a burden.

 

[dougp26364]

Marriott is a hugely successful sales company - they sell reservations to hotel rooms that, most of the time, they don't own, they just manage and get a commission for doing so.

When folks talk about a sales company not offering commissions to their salesreps and magically that makes things better I question that logic.

If I were in Marriott's shoes and had to release this new sales system next week I would want it to go viral among the owners and that means enthusiastic salesreps who can trade in their 5-series BMW for a 7-series BMW and that means HUGE commissions.

It's the salesreps that will make or break this new sales system - for Marriott to hold hands with their owners and leave the salesreps to sit aside and hum Kumbaya is ludicrous to me.

I would expect the salesreps to work so hard that they have crashes in their 5-series BMW, get the insurance money and upgrade to a 7-series.

But that's just me...

The conversion is simply replacing the free gift. What's so hard to understand about that logic?

Have you ever set a trap? Did you put the trap out empty or did you put bait in the trap? If you set an empty trap, you'll get very little. Put something of interest in there to get people sniffing around and now you've got something.

A salesman sells. Bring a salesman all the qualified buyers he can see in a day.....every day......and he'll be in hog heaven. The most difficult part of selling isn't selling, it's getting qualified prospects in front of you to sell. This will get all the qualified prospects they can handle in front of them for the next several years.

 

[PerryM]

Which planet are we talking about?

I feel like I'm on the set of a B-grade movie set on another planet.

Marriott will do what's best for their customers at the expense of their stockholders?

Marriott's sales reps will forgive commissions in order to spend quality time with an owner who is to pay more for what they already have?

Beam me up Scotty....

 

[SueDonJ]

I'm not sure why folks are expecting that owners will NEED to sit through a sales presentation in order to be able to join whatever new system might be rolled out. We're almost halfway through this year and a whole lot of owners have already used their weeks, haven't they? (We have.) Plus our sales rep in Hilton Head has already told us to email or call her with any questions when it's rolled out. She didn't say anything at all about seeing us again in the near future.

I don't think Marriott is going to expect any of us to schedule separate time from our owned weeks, using cash or MRP rentals, just to visit with our sales reps for this. It appears they'll have to set it up as a "from home" email/telephone offer if they want participation from as many owners as possible.

 

[PerryM]

I'm not sure why folks are expecting that owners will NEED to sit through a sales presentation in order to be able to join whatever new system might be rolled out. We're almost halfway through this year and a whole lot of owners have already used their weeks, haven't they? (We have.) Plus our sales rep in Hilton Head has already told us to email or call her with any questions when it's rolled out. She didn't say anything at all about seeing us again in the near future.

I don't think Marriott is going to expect any of us to schedule separate time from our owned weeks, using cash or MRP rentals, just to visit with our sales reps for this. It appears they'll have to set it up as a "from home" email/telephone offer if they want participation from as many owners as possible.

If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy. Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.

I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.

Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.

But who knows...

 

[tombo]

Sure they will. It happens more often than you know. Sales is a numbers game. The more people you talk to, the greater the number of sales you'll make. Current owners are so much better prospects than Joe Tourist off the street coming in for a free gift. The conversion is what will get people back into the sales room instead of the free gift AND, it's getting better qualified prospects into the sales room AND it's getting people back into the saleroom who have purchased before. If we are to believe the numbers, which indicate only a small percentage are resale buyers, they'll be getting people who have purchased direct from Marriott back onto the sales floor. Add to this a program that Marriott is certain will have great appeal to it's owners and it's likely to be akin to shooting fish in a barrel for the really good salesmen.

In order for the points to succeed, they need every saleperson as motivated as they can be to roll out this program, and that is done through paying them for converting owners. If the only interest (and income) sales people have in points conversions is to sell new weeks/points, then the second the customer convinces the sales person that they are not buying any additional inventory, then the sales people will care less about whether an owner converts to points or not. Marriott must convert large numbers of existing owners to points quickly for the program to work. If people convert and there is little inventory to exchange for next year, then the word will spread that the points system sucks on the internet and by the pool possibly killing it forever.


Marriott has a vested interest in converting owners to points, and I would be willing to place a BIG WAGER that the sales people will be PAID to convert current owners to points, and they will be paid well. I have never heard of a sales organization that expects commission sales people to sell a product for them for nothing hoping that by selling the first non compensated product that they can possibly sell a different product. It would never work. There is no motivation for them to push hard and overcome objections if someone is interested in a points conversion on currently owned week(s), but not interested in any new Marriott purchases. No way Marriott would roll out points conversions with no commission and expect an uncompensated sales force to try as hard as they can to convert as many owners as possible.


To compare using the points conversion presentation to gifting is like asking the salesmen to sell the gifts (points conversions) for no compensation, and then sell what pays their bills after trying to sell the gifts that got the owners to come to the presentation. You would have to make 2 sales to get paid for one (sell them on converting to points for free, then you would have to sell them more points to even get paid). That would never work and if you were a commision only salesman (as you said you have been), then you would never like that program or eagerly and enthusiastically push points conversions you weren't getting compensated for financially. It would be a lose-lose for Marriott's points programs and for the sales people.

The sales people will be paid and probably paid better at the launch than they have ever been paid before to generate enthusiasm among the sales force. There will be launch bounses, goal attainment rewards, trips, cash, anything Marriott can do to launch this thing quickly and successfully. Right now at sales seminars all over the US Marriott salesmen are being pumped up listening to motivational speakers like Zig Ziglar, they have been promised the moon, right now some hired singer is belting out "Ain't no mountain high enough", and they will have been totally sold on the new program before they return to the sales floor. This is how commission sales works and this is how new products that must be sold by a sales force are rolled out. As I said I am willing to make a big wager.......

 

[lopezcasa]

New Upcoming System for Marriott

Sorry if this has been asked and answered in the 89 pages I didn't read all the way thru, , how do you think this new system may affect Marriott helping to resell a property? I have contacted them about selling my property in Maui and am on the list, but I was wondering if this will help or hinder my chances of getting it sold?
Thanks for any opinions.

 

[DanCali]

Please try to find out the answer to the $100MM question... how does the inventory get allocated to the points system versus weeks.

For example - say a resort has 2 seasons. Gold is 1-26 and Platinum is 27-52. Now half of the Platinum convert to points... do they (i) take half of each week from 27-52 into the points system? (ii) take the deeded weeks of those who converted to the points system. (iii) do they take the most desirable weeks to the points system (say all July, August, and holiday weeks).

If you can't get a straight answer, we'll have good reason to suspect there is some monkey business going on...

I know this isn't definitive but, my guess is it will be like other mixed use resorts. There are X number of points based ownership and X number of weeks based ownership for each season. As reservations are made, the tally is kept. If there are 100 points based weeks available once those weeks are reserved thats all that's available for that resort. My bet is it will still be first come, first served.

What will be tricky is if they give points based reseravtions a head start on reserving their weeks. While anything is possible, I don't see Marriott doing that to the weeks based owners. I could see some sort of multi week priority given for reservations like what Marriott currently does (13 months rather than 12 months).

Honestly, I own in a mixed use system and it's not been an issue for either owners in the weeks based reservations system or the points based reservations system. Contrary to the fear mongering that's gone on in this thread, I don't believe it will ever be the problem a few posters are trying to make it out to be.

In my opinion this is the biggest hotbutton issue and should not be underestimated.

Think of the 13 month rule. Would any high demand week be available to single week owners if inventory wasn't allocated in a somewhat fair manner. They make 50% of inventory available to the 13 month window, but even that is not enough, right? It has to be 50% of each week for it to work somewhat properly, otherwise all the good ski weeks will still be gone at 13 months, all summer NCV weeks, will be gone at 13 months etc.

It is no different here - you have a new class of owners that has to have their inventory maintained separately. The way described by Doug26364 above, it leaves open the theoretical possibility that points owners may get all the good weeks in a season or vice versa. IMO inventory has to be completely separated, and in a fair manner, for this to even have a remote chance of working properly.

"Fair manner" would be that if 22% of owners in a particular season convert, they take 22% of each week in that season for the points system reservations. It's fair because (i) it's hard to point out otherwise , and (ii) any other manner has the potential to put some class of owners at a disadvantage.

 

[PerryM]

What?

In my opinion this is the biggest hotbutton issue and should not be underestimated.

Think of the 13 month rule. Would any high demand week be available to single week owners if inventory wasn't allocated in a somewhat fair manner. They make 50% of inventory available to the 13 month window, but even that is not enough, right? It has to be 50% of each week for it to work somewhat properly, otherwise all the good ski weeks will still be gone at 13 months, all summer NCV weeks, will be gone at 13 months etc.

It is no different here - you have a new class of owners that has to have their inventory maintained separately. The way described by Doug26364 above, it leaves open the theoretical possibility that points owners may get all the good weeks in a season or vice versa. IMO inventory has to be completely separated, and in a fair manner, for this to even have a remote chance of working properly.

"Fair manner" would be that if 22% of owners in a particular season convert, they take 22% of each week in that season for the points system reservations. It's fair because (i) it's hard to point out otherwise , and (ii) any other manner has the potential to put some class of owners at a disadvantage.

OMG the word Fair and Timeshare Developer in the same sentence?

Marriott is going to play by the rules and take all 13 month "hot" weeks before any owner who decides to not join.

Same with the 12 month inventory.

Show me the words "Fair" in any of the documents that spell out how Marriott and the non-joining members interact. I can't wait....

 

[tombo]

The conversion is simply replacing the free gift. What's so hard to understand about that logic?

Have you ever set a trap? Did you put the trap out empty or did you put bait in the trap? If you set an empty trap, you'll get very little. Put something of interest in there to get people sniffing around and now you've got something.

A salesman sells. Bring a salesman all the qualified buyers he can see in a day.....every day......and he'll be in hog heaven. The most difficult part of selling isn't selling, it's getting qualified prospects in front of you to sell. This will get all the qualified prospects they can handle in front of them for the next several years.

As I said, you are asking the salesmen to sell the free gift for nothing. Your theory gets a qualified prospect in front of the sales people by offering a gift (the opportunity to convert weeks to points), that the sales person has to sell, but Marriott will not pay them to convince the owner to convert (receive their gift). Can you imagine if they had to get money out of the prospects for the "free" Disney tickets before they could even have a chance to sell something that they would be paid on?

The sales force will be paid commission to convert owners or they would not discuss conversions with owners and it would instead be handled in the mail or by 800 numbers. The sales force will be paid without a doubt because as we all know sales people will be needed to convince large numbers of owners to convert a week they already own, into a points program with no proven track record, and in the process convince them to pay thousands for the priviledge of becoming a Marriott Points Member!

 

[DanCali]

OMG the word Fair and Timeshare Developer in the same sentence?

Marriott is going to play by the rules and take all 13 month "hot" weeks before any owner who decides to not join.

Same with the 12 month inventory.

Show me the words "Fair" in any of the documents that spell out how Marriott and the non-joining members interact. I can't wait....

I have no doubt they may do this when it comes to the weeks they need to secure for themselves (e.g. from point conversions).

As to the balance between weeks and points, they probably need to tread more carefully on that front. Playing favorites is a dangerous game...

 

[PerryM]

I have no doubt they may do this when it comes to the weeks they need to secure for themselves (e.g. from point conversions).

As to the balance between weeks and points, they probably need to tread more carefully on that front. Playing favorites is a dangerous game...

OMG there's that word again Fair (by inference).

Marriott has made it perfectly clear that I am their worst enemy - the Marriott owner. They bash me every chance they get - they bash resales and that's me.

Marriott will take much delight in screwing the resale owner by making it so impossible to vacation that the owner will finally succumb and convert.

How will the folks who don't convert express an outrage? Lawsuits which will be filed in abundance; and who pays for all those lawsuits? We all know it's the owners.

 

[SueDonJ]

If Marriott is using the latest sales tools then they will hold webinars like crazy. Limit each to 1,000 owners and set up 2-hr slots and let folks just sign up and learn the new system.

I attend webinars daily and they always involve selling a product or service and about 1,000 folks seems to be what they shoot for.

Because of real estate laws they probably can't take orders on the internet and require a sales tour to sell them face to face; but the heavy lifting of educating 400,000 owners should be by webinar.

But who knows...

But what I'm saying is, our sales rep didn't give any indication that it will be necessary to talk to her at all! She said we can call/email her IF we have questions when we're notified, which makes me think that this will be offered to us the same way as other promotions, in email or snail mail. She just didn't give us the impression that some of you have, that it's going to require a sales associate's assistance and/or that they'll be inspired by commissions for conversions of existing weeks.

 

[SueDonJ]

In my opinion this is the biggest hotbutton issue and should not be underestimated.

Think of the 13 month rule. Would any high demand week be available to single week owners if inventory wasn't allocated in a somewhat fair manner. They make 50% of inventory available to the 13 month window, but even that is not enough, right? It has to be 50% of each week for it to work somewhat properly, otherwise all the good ski weeks will still be gone at 13 months, all summer NCV weeks, will be gone at 13 months etc.

It is no different here - you have a new class of owners that has to have their inventory maintained separately. The way described by Doug26364 above, it leaves open the theoretical possibility that points owners may get all the good weeks in a season or vice versa. IMO inventory has to be completely separated, and in a fair manner, for this to even have a remote chance of working properly.

"Fair manner" would be that if 22% of owners in a particular season convert, they take 22% of each week in that season for the points system reservations. It's fair because (i) it's hard to point out otherwise , and (ii) any other manner has the potential to put some class of owners at a disadvantage.

I expect it will work exactly as you suggest, Dan, that they'll have to account for the points/weeks inventory according to how many owners belong to each pool. But I don't expect a problem with them doing that - has there ever been any indication that they've played fast and loose with the 12/13-month inventory? I've never seen anything on TUG to suggest that, even though it would be to their advantage to do so because it could result in more multi-week owners.

 

[RandR]

But what I'm saying is, our sales rep didn't give any indication that it will be necessary to talk to her at all! She said we can call/email her IF we have questions when we're notified, which makes me think that this will be offered to us the same way as other promotions, in email or snail mail. She just didn't give us the impression that some of you have, that it's going to require a sales associate's assistance and/or that they'll be inspired by commissions for conversions of existing weeks.

You are likely right that there will not be a NEED to see a salesperson but I am sure that Marriott would prefer if you do. (I don't mean you personally but owners in general.) It will be a great opportunity for them to sell more. Think of the situation where someone gets 20,000 points for their ts but having 25,000 would open them up to many more possible choices. Bam, how would you like to buy some more points? Oh and by the way, if you take advantage of our one time only conversion special, you get a 10% discount on those points.

 

[DanCali]

But I don't expect a problem with them doing that - has there ever been any indication that they've played fast and loose with the 12/13-month inventory?

I can't really answer that since I don't have access to their computer systems. By default that makes the answer to your question a "No".

The "smell test" will be what Marriott says about the handling of inventory, how consistent it is, and what they are willing to put in writing.

My opinion is that this will be a sensitive issue and we won't get a clear cut answer... I can't even see how anyone would consider converting without knowing how the inventory is allocated - I mean putting razzle and dazzle aside, how does this really work? I hope we get more transparency than that but, as Perry would probably say, transparency from a developer may be an oxymoron.

 

[SueDonJ]

I can't really answer that since I don't have access to their computer systems. By default that makes the answer to your question a "No".

The "smell test" will be what Marriott says about the handling of inventory, how consistent it is, and what they are willing to put in writing.

My opinion is that this will be a sensitive issue and we won't get a clear cut answer... I can't even see how anyone would consider converting without knowing how the inventory is allocated - I mean putting razzle and dazzle aside, how does this really work? I hope we get more transparency than that but, as Perry would probably say, transparency from a developer may be an oxymoron.

Honestly, I don't see a problem with being on the lookout for problems with how Marriott handles the inventory after (if) this new thing is rolled out, but I just don't get the expectation that they WILL incorrectly handle it in order to generate sales. Within the current system we've not had to worry about all this despite the fact that there isn't anything in writing that we can point to for how they handle 12/13-month inventory. Why are some so willing to believe that they'll finagle it purposely to hurt the folks who don't convert? What is in their past history to lead to that expectation?

I know we didn't ask for any guarantee in writing about how inventory is handled when we purchased more than one week in order to be able to take advantage of the 13-mo rule. If everything with this new system appears to be as legitimate and is a usage improvement over what we own currently, then I won't feel like I have to ask for such a written guarantee before converting. YMMV, of course, but Marriott's consistent history with a good product and a good system holds some water with me. The only thing they'll HAVE to sell me on is that whatever gets rolled out works better for me.

 

[PerryM]

But what I'm saying is, our sales rep didn't give any indication that it will be necessary to talk to her at all! She said we can call/email her IF we have questions when we're notified, which makes me think that this will be offered to us the same way as other promotions, in email or snail mail. She just didn't give us the impression that some of you have, that it's going to require a sales associate's assistance and/or that they'll be inspired by commissions for conversions of existing weeks.

This is great news!

Do-it-yourself weeks to points conversion.

I sure hope the instructions are not in Chinese.

I suppose a website could have all the docs and instructions on how to print out the forms transferring ownership from you to the Marriott trust.

Then which docs to have notarized and how to send the docs via Priority Mail.

I guess it could be done and this would be my dream come true

 

[DanCali]

Why are some so willing to believe that they'll finagle it purposely to hurt the folks who don't convert? What is in their past history to lead to that expectation?

...The only thing they'll HAVE to sell me on is that whatever gets rolled out works better for me.

It doesn't have to be "finagling" (which can go either way). It could be that because of whatever legal issues (as Fredm raised last week) the inventory could favor one class of owners over the other, whether it's weeks over points or points over weeks. In fact, this can vary by state...

All I am saying is that this is an important issue that needs to be factored into the decision to convert or not. In order to be factored in, one needs to first understand the issue and how things will work. In order to do that, one needs the details; blind faith in Marriott will not cut it - at least not for me. To me, this is a much more important issue to understand than how many Marriott Rewards points one gets for converting...