Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[Pit]

... leaving the rest of us downscale & resale timeshare folks stuck with swapping only among the dogs of I-I & the cats of RCI.

... not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[DanCali]

I actually agree with below. I will throw you guys a bone re new points program

1. It IS coming June or shortly after
2. You don't have to join
3. direct purchasers will pay a nominal fee to join
4. resale purchasers will pay more ( how much, I don't know )
5. For people who join and own Platinum high demand weeks, it will be a Gold mine. Some others, not so much so just don't join

This sounds so familiar that I have to ask...

Dave - is Fletch your "unnamed reliable source"?



(quote below is from a different thread)

This comes from a Marriott insider who has never given me inaccurate info:

The internal points and internal exchange program that I announced on this forum about two years ago as being "in development" is currently scheduled to become operative in about May/June 2010. (Obviously, delays are possible.)

Those who bought directly from Marriott will pay a relatively low fee if they choose to join the points program...

Those who bought resale will pay a higher fee, possibly much higher, if they wish to join...

Marriott's intent is to make it easy enough for most owners to join so that the points program will work effectively....

Also, Marriott expects to make it easy enough for most owners to join that the huge majority of available exchange weeks will be exchanged through the internal points system...

This will be a money-maker for Marriott, as anticipated all along. Instead of II getting the exchange fee for those Marriott to Marriott exchanges, Marriott will get it....

 

[jlf58]

I didn't exactly give top secret info. EVERYONE in MVCI knows June is the roll out date and the rest is pretty basic. The funny thing is it has been repoted here by 1 dozen people but nobody believes them since a salesman told them . Although I know Dave like I know many TUGers, we don't talk that often. Dave bought from a guy in my office who no longer is around so I kinda adopted him. For the record, I was never able to close him on another week

This sounds so familiar that I have to ask...

Dave - is Fletch your "unnamed reliable source"?



(quote below is from a different thread)

 

[ocdb8r]

Just wanted to float a theory...

I follow these boards as my in-laws have a Legend's Edge week that they typically deposit in the FL club and then lock off and trade with great success. Also, I am a DVC and DRI (deeded week - no club for me - got this one resale while it was still Sunterra...) owner.

As you may know, DVC switched about a year and a half ago from II to RCI, much to the chagrin of DVC and MVCI owners both. The setup for DVC was a 2 year contract with RCI. Now, I know that many people have supposed that relationship will continue in the future, but there has been discussions on the DVC boards from time to time that perhaps DVC would try to leave the exchanging companies for good and go out on it's own with other large, well-branded systems (i.e. - Marriott, HGVC, etc.), and just do their own exchanging. Why let the exchange companies get the profit from the exchanges?

Anyway, as I am reading all of this, these discussions popped back into my head. I wonder if some of the major players may be making adjustments to go to a shared exchange system and leave the RCIs and IIs out of it all-together? Breaking Marriott reservations into some point basis would surely make it easier to exchange with a DVC or an HGVC.

All purely speculation and probably way off base, but it does bear thought...

A few major issues with this.... 1) remeber that these people are basically each other's biggest competition. It would take quite an act to get them to cooperate in this sort of way. 2) II and RCI would still be needed to fill gaps that these guys don't fill...there is still a decent of demmand to trade into areas not served by the big names. 3) Given #2, the benefits of such a system would have to be substantial and outweigh the nightmare of administration.

While all three may have similar brand clout ,(give or take) they are not equals. No one comes close to Marriott in scope and I doubt the smaller guys would be willing to grant the sort of concessions Marriott would want to participate (as the largest supplier).

I also think II and RCI are quite willing to compensate these guys sufficiently for an external system while offering additonal inventory and dealing with the headache of administration. At this point, I don't think any consortium would see sufficient additional return for abandoning the exisiting players EXCEPT for internal trades which are much more easy to administer as they control the properties and to an extent the inventory.

 

[DanCali]

I didn't exactly give top secret info.

To us or Dave ?

EVERYONE in MVCI knows June is the roll out date and the rest is pretty basic. The funny thing is it has been repoted here by 1 dozen people but nobody believes them since a salesman told them . Although I know Dave like I know many TUGers, we don't talk that often. Dave bought from a guy in my office who no longer is around so I kinda adopted him. For the record, I was never able to close him on another week

Sure - not top secret info.

But most tuggers would severely discount anything said by a salesperson to someone else in a presentation in an effort to close a sale... And if we do that then it'd be nice to know if you and Dave represent the same source or two independent sources.

From your post it sounds like you are the same source - but it's not unequivocal

 

[PerryM]

The bombing starts in 10 minutes.....

I actually agree with below. I will throw you guys a bone re new points program

1. It IS coming June or shortly after
2. You don't have to join
3. direct purchasers will pay a nominal fee to join
4. resale purchasers will pay more ( how much, I don't know )
5. For people who join and own Platinum high demand weeks, it will be a Gold mine. Some others, not so much so just don't join



The only way it will hurt people who don't join is there will be less II inventory but it will take 5 or 6 years before you notice as this will not take off as excpected IMHO ....


I am done on the subject, back to sprinkling pixie dust on myself

There are more Bronze, Silver, and Gold weeks in the Marriott system than Platinum and this new exchange system is probably designed to sell those doggy week. This is why the internal exchange system makes little sense to me; from a sales point.

Platinum Plus Holiday weeks sell out first then Platinum - they don't need anything to help the sales effort.

The problem with this kind of system are the MFs - sure Marriott can sell 2 doggy Silver weeks to some schmuck and tell them to deposit it and they might be able to exchange into a Platinum week but the MFs will kill them; much much cheaper to rent the same villa from Marriott.

I'm guessing that the resale owner will pay a hefty upgrade fee, probably in the range of $2,500 to be able to use the new system - PER WEEK. That's what I paid for our first Mountain Side to convert the EOY deposit for MRPs to EY. My second week had the "up-grade fee" built in (right).

I see NO upside to Marriott owners anywhere - just punishment. Can't wait until June.

The current II exchange system can be converted to handle the need for an Internal Exchange System in 10 minutes - just change the 24 day "Marriott only" to 6-months and NOTHING else needs to change. Just a simple eMail to all the salesreps and to the owners. 10-Minutes and a few minutes for the programmers at II and we have our own internal exchange system.

But Nooooooooooooo - that's not the purpose of the exchange system is it.

P.S.
If the Upgrade fee is $2,500 then ALL Marriott resales drop instantly by $2,500. Pick another number if you want but ALL resales will instantly be devalued by the Upgrade fee.

Thanks a lot Marriott..........

 

[dioxide45]

I have agree with Perry on this to a degree. This will be nothing more than a sales gimmick for Marriott. Much like the trade for points option is today. Trading for points really only sounds great when you are sitting there listening to a sales presentation. When you really look at it, how much it costs, how often one will actually use it, and the always devaluing of the points, it just doesn't hold a long term value for developer buyers. I know some will disagree, but it really only sounds cool when the salesperson is telling you. This is by definition a sales tool and that is exactly how they use it.

I think if anything were to change, a trade for points option that is measured against MF paid and also allows people to reserve back in to timeshare properties with these points would be the good. Extending the current priority period in II would be a good idea also. Not sure that has to be 6 months though.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

I'm not sure why everyone is getting bent out of shape with this as yet undisclosed change which will likely take place in June.

Just keep your $2,500 (or whatever conversion fee amount) in your pocket and stick with the existing Interval International trading system.

II has worked well for most in the past, is there some specific reasons it wouldn't work well in the future?

I don't think a lot of owners out there are going to shell out more money into a yet unproven change in the system... my opinion of course.

How do we celebrate the change? Do we dance with the banana or just frown with progress:annoyed:

 

[jlf58]

Does Dave know the people I know, I doubt it. If we have the same answers, its just because they are correct answers which many MVCI people know

To us or Dave ?



Sure - not top secret info.

But most tuggers would severely discount anything said by a salesperson to someone else in a presentation in an effort to close a sale... And if we do that then it'd be nice to know if you and Dave represent the same source or two independent sources.

From your post it sounds like you are the same source - but it's not unequivocal

 

[timeos2]

It was only a matter of time

I have agree with Perry on this to a degree. This will be nothing more than a sales gimmick for Marriott. Much like the trade for points option is today. Trading for points really only sounds great when you are sitting there listening to a sales presentation. When you really look at it, how much it costs, how often one will actually use it, and the always devaluing of the points, it just doesn't hold a long term value for developer buyers. I know some will disagree, but it really only sounds cool when the salesperson is telling you. This is by definition a sales tool and that is exactly how they use it.

I think if anything were to change, a trade for points option that is measured against MF paid and also allows people to reserve back in to timeshare properties with these points would be the good. Extending the current priority period in II would be a good idea also. Not sure that has to be 6 months though.

You don't have to look far to see other developers who get even more than $2500 from existing owners to join a glorified points based exchange. That would be a bargain. You can only hope they don't want your deed and voting rights and that they allow resale of that membership - many don't. Despite what appears to be a serious upfront cost to merely add a new exchange option while possibly giving up your current ownership many otherwise seemingly happy owners buy in! After it's too late they may (or may not) figure out that they gave up too much and got little but they are blinded by the slick, polished sales pitch that Marriott will have honed just like all the others. Marriott has stood on the sidelines as others made big money basically reselling the same products a second or third time. They had to be drooling. Owners can only hope that issues like high fees get addressed as part of the process - ie more points =higher fees (but don't plan on it).

Like the value of destination clubs, DVC holding value "forever", the best timeshare in the World being a good buy:ignore: , the always dependable ROFR propping up resale values (you should ask for MORE when your week doesn't sell, remember that beautiful advice from not long ago?) and now the "never happen" idea of Marriott creating an internal exchange the prognostication success of some around TUG and other sites hasn't been shown to be very good. In fact doing the opposite would have been a great path to follow for almost guaranteed success. This is another example where the big company will do what they want to make sure they make money. Who or what gets hurt (or benefits) is mere fall out that they couldn't care less about.

It has been a virtual certainty that Marriott would have an internal system for a number of years. They are too smart to depend on others and give up that income. The only question has been when and now it appears that time is almost here. Figure out if you win or lose by buying in and go forward from there. Marriott will get theirs with or without the few that are truly informed via TUG or others. And they know it. Never underestimate the lack of knowledge for most people involved in a timeshare sales presentation. They are ready to be taken, owners or not.

 

[Clemson Fan]

OK, now that Fletch has hit the thread I'd like to ask a question. I understand a new points system for internal exchanges is coming in June and there will be a different buy-in amount whether you purchased direct or resale. I think that has been pretty well confirmed.

What has not confirmed is whether making reservations at your home resort will be impacted or changed. IOW, having nothing to do with trading, will there be a difference between resale vs direct purchasers in making reservations for use at their home resort? Will the 13 month rule be impacted in any way? There have been rumors that resale purchasers will only be able to make reservations from 6 months to only a few weeks out. This is actually what the OP was about. I don't think I've seen a post from a reliable source confirming this rumor.

So Fletch, is there any truth to that rumor?

For disclosure, I own a 1 bedroom MGC week that I bought resale a couple of years ago mainly for 13 month booking help. I'm thinking of selling it and am constantly debating on whether to sell it before or after this change in June comes.

TIA for any insight. Best wishes with DVC. I recently bought 250 points at VGC directly through DVC telesales.

 

[jlf58]

I don't want to get sucked into a million questions but it is Sunday . From what I know, changing booking windows is not on the radar for June so keep your GC week. I think they do want another gotcha for resale buyers but with points coming, they will want to keep the owners as happy as possible. The worst thing MVCI did was drop right of first refusal as that along with other factors are killing direct sales. As far as points, it IS to make the program more flexible, PERIOD. There is nothing worst than telling an owner in Maui that when he trades to Orlando, he gets the same 7 nights when he paid $80,000 and the orlando owner paid $25,000. Now his Maui oceanfront might get him 12 days in Orlando. Makes sense ? You guys need to stop overthinking this and they are trying to help. If you bought resale and own a silver week, just continue to use II and you will be fine.

OK, now that Fletch has hit the thread I'd like to ask a question. I understand a new points system for internal exchanges is coming in June and there will be a different buy-in amount whether you purchased direct or resale. I think that has been pretty well confirmed.

What has not confirmed is whether making reservations at your home resort will be impacted or changed. IOW, having nothing to do with trading, will there be a difference between resale vs direct purchasers in making reservations for use at their home resort? Will the 13 month rule be impacted in any way? There have been rumors that resale purchasers will only be able to make reservations from 6 months to only a few weeks out. This is actually what the OP was about. I don't think I've seen a post from a reliable source confirming this rumor.

So Fletch, is there any truth to that rumor?

For disclosure, I own a 1 bedroom MGC week that I bought resale a couple of years ago mainly for 13 month booking help. I'm thinking of selling it and am constantly debating on whether to sell it before or after this change in June comes.

TIA for any insight. Best wishes with DVC. I recently bought 250 points at VGC directly through DVC telesales.

 

[dioxide45]

I don't want to get sucked into a million questions but it is Sunday . From what I know, changing booking windows is not on the radar for June so keep your GC week.

So if this is true, then the original post was just a big lie to suck people in to yet another internal exchange argument.

 

[John Cerra]

Devaluation -- What Marriott can and can't do

If you look at your deed, you are an equal pro-rata owner with some time restrictions on when you can occupy. If you were to look up the deeds of ownership in a sold out time share, you would see that Marriott owns none. They CANNOT change the rules of ownership...the deed is driven by the land law of you state, and by-laws are determined by the requirements of the state, and the organization documents in the original offering. Rules that can be amended by vote require some majority.

So...

Marriott cannot subordinate your interest (deed) to another deed. Any preferential (direct vs resales) assignment of rooms needs to be allowed by your Home Owners Association. Even then, it is a subordination of rights that I think could be legally challenged in a class action law suit. Make it clear to those folks how you feel. Demand it be put to a vote if it comes up.

In terms of setting up a new "club," Marriott is free to do whatever they want and invite into it whoever they want. But I doubt that anyone who bought a resale away from them is going to pay $2500 to join. As a rule, resale buyers "get the joke" and will save their money. This might hurt II a lot...but I would think Red Weeks would benefit...a lot.

As for the need to give up deeds to join the club...that sounds fishy. First, Marriott doesn't want to tie up its capital to own deeds (and be required to pay membership fee and taxes.) They are a services company, not a real estate. You might surrender right of use individual years, the same way you do in II now.


If you bought a good week in a good place, Marriott will eventually have to decide how badly they want you, rather than vice-versa.

 

[Clemson Fan]

Thanks Fletch!

I agree with you on ROFR and that factored hugely into buying my VGC points directly from DVC. Knowing that if I needed to sell them that at most I might lose 20% made the purchase a no brainer for me. I don't think I'll lose anything if I need to sell b/c I got my points through incentives at $88/point. I really like how DVC supports their product through ROFR. My guide is Gib McCain.

Having gotchas for a certain class of owner IMO is just plain stupid and a poor business model that doesn't work in the long run. Just support your product and customers and you'll grow and do well. DVC is the model for this. You'll have no problem selling DVC b/c it practically sells itself thanks to DVC really continuing to support the product.

 

[timeos2]

If you look at your deed, you are an equal pro-rata owner with some time restrictions on when you can occupy. If you were to look up the deeds of ownership in a sold out time share, you would see that Marriott owns none. They CANNOT change the rules of ownership...the deed is driven by the land law of you state, and by-laws are determined by the requirements of the state, and the organization documents in the original offering. Rules that can be amended by vote require some majority.

So...

Marriott cannot subordinate your interest (deed) to another deed. Any preferential (direct vs resales) assignment of rooms needs to be allowed by your Home Owners Association. Even then, it is a subordination of rights that I think could be legally challenged in a class action law suit. Make it clear to those folks how you feel. Demand it be put to a vote if it comes up.

Absolutely correct. You own what you bought and that can't be modified. If it was it is a guaranteed court win.

In terms of setting up a new "club," Marriott is free to do whatever they want and invite into it whoever they want. But I doubt that anyone who bought a resale away from them is going to pay $2500 to join. As a rule, resale buyers "get the joke" and will save their money. This might hurt II a lot...but I would think Red Weeks would benefit...a lot.

As for the need to give up deeds to join the club...that sounds fishy. First, Marriott doesn't want to tie up its capital to own deeds (and be required to pay membership fee and taxes.) They are a services company, not a real estate. You might surrender right of use individual years, the same way you do in II now.

Believe it people fall for the deed thing. Marriott wouldn't pay the fees the members do - and Marriott would get a fee on top for administration. Its no risk to them. And could be appealing.

 

[PerryM]

Mammy; it's a double Whammy!

I'm not sure why everyone is getting bent out of shape with this as yet undisclosed change which will likely take place in June.

Just keep your $2,500 (or whatever conversion fee amount) in your pocket and stick with the existing Interval International trading system.

II has worked well for most in the past, is there some specific reasons it wouldn't work well in the future?

I don't think a lot of owners out there are going to shell out more money into a yet unproven change in the system... my opinion of course.

How do we celebrate the change? Do we dance with the banana or just frown with progress:annoyed:

If you keep the $2,500 and not use the new system you will get scraps from II - the vast majority of Marriott owners will eventually convert.

That $2,500 can easily become $5,000 week if you:

1) Pay the $2,500 to upgrade
2) Sell your week and the seller demands you pay an additional $2,500 to allow him access to the new exchange system; it WILL NOT carry forward to the new owner. Don't want to pay your new owner for the upgrade - fine he will simply reduce his bid by $2,500. Free markets digest ALL known information and reflect it in bid/ask pricing.

And for what? I don't hear folks bellyaching about exchanging among Marriott owners - that 24 day II window works just fine. Marriott knows this and just wants to wring more money out of existing owners for no benefit at all. They don't care about double whammies hitting every owner.

Double whammy - thanks a lot Marriott....

 

[m61376]

One issue which I am really curious about is will points be tied to MF's? With the Asia Pacific program, each point incurred a set MF, so that Bronze week owners who converted acquired fewer points than Plat. week owners, but also had a lower annual obligation. I really wonder how Marriott will assign points based on season (naturally) but maintain the same MF's at each resort across all seasons despite large variations in point allocation, presumably based on season owned and on view category. I would venture to guess that a Bronze or Silver week owner, who would now get a fraction of the points that a Plat. week owner gets, would expect to pay a lower MF (as occurs in other points based systems); this would create an untenable situation with escalating MF's for Plat. and Gold week owners, who would have to compensate. Alternately, if MF's remain stable across all ownerships, then Bronze and Silver week owners would be paying a proportionally higher MF per point allocated- another inequitable situation. I may be wrong, but I foresee this as a major bone of contention.

Fletch makes a good point about the Maui week owner who paid 80K getting a more equitable trade for additional days when downgrading to an Orlando resort which cost 20K. On the surface, that makes sense. But, what happens when Marriott tries to sell the next resort? Will they artificially inflate the point allocation to increase sales? Fast forward 5 or 10 years- will that new Florida resort be pricier than some of the premium properties originally were? Does that mean newer resorts will increasingly be allocated more points, making it impossible to trade for a full week there even if using a current premium property?

 

[jlf58]

Did you really buy with Westgate ? damn, talk about losing credibility LOL

If you keep the $2,500 and not use the new system you will get scraps from II - the vast majority of Marriott owners will eventually convert.

That $2,500 can easily become $5,000 week if you:

1) Pay the $2,500 to upgrade
2) Sell your week and the seller demands you pay an additional $2,500 to allow him access to the new exchange system; it WILL NOT carry forward to the new owner. Don't want to pay your new owner for the upgrade - fine he will simply reduce his bid by $2,500. Free markets digest ALL known information and reflect it in bid/ask pricing.

And for what? I don't hear folks bellyaching about exchanging among Marriott owners - that 24 day II window works just fine. Marriott knows this and just wants to wring more money out of existing owners for no benefit at all. They don't care about double whammies hitting every owner.

Double whammy - thanks a lot Marriott....

 

[RandR]

A points system per se is not a bad thing. When I was trying to decide which system to buy into, I liked the points based approach of Hilton but the selection of Marriott. I decided to go with Marriott. The main issue with the new points system that is coming is that it is a change. Unfortunately in this change, the majority (maybe even vast majority) of owners will lose.

I do not doubt at all what Fletch is saying. Platinum owners in desirable places with do really well, everyone else....not so much. Sure the ones that don't do well can just not join the new system. Well guess what, the ones that will make out like bandits (desirable Platinum owners) will join so much of the best weeks won't be in II. Plus any new people who buy direct will just be put in the points system so those weeks will never be available. For those who can travel off season it may not be that bad since they will still have a selection of off season weeks. Those with kids that must go during school breaks don't have that flexibility. They will mainly have to go to the property they own. That's why when I made my buying decision I listened to one of the big rules that many TUGgers told me...buy where you would be happy going. Even though it was in overbuilt Orlando that is where I bought. If I now have to use my property every year, I can live with it. I may not be as happy but I will be going to a place I love.

As far as MF are concerned, I think within the Hilton system it is based on number of bedrooms. So even though a Bronze week has less points they pay the same MF's as a Platinum week. That is why I was considering buying a 1BR platinum (4800 points) vs a 2 BR Gold (5000 points). (Someone please correct me if I have this wrong.)

I also think that within the Hilton system, a couple of the newer Hawaii resorts did have a higher point value than the others. A large chunk of their properties all have the same points based on number of bedrooms and season.

I do not want to start an ROFR argument here but my one question is, how come the one company that uses ROFR the most, Disney, has the highest prices for their resales? I know Disney's name carries a lot of weight, but the percentage discount off retail is way lower than for the other systems that don't defend the ROFR.

Bottom line is Marriott is a for profit company with shareholders to please. That is their first concern, not a bunch of angry TUGgers. As many others have said, the people here are a small minority of Marriott ts owners. Most will have no clue about the change or will just go along and not care. The biggest shame is that they are likely going to be somewhat punitive to resale buyers. My hope is that they do some form of grandfathering the existing owners. While I do not want to throw new resale buyers under the bus, they will know the deal when they buy in and can make a decision based on the information. I have only been an owner for a short time but many resale buyers here on TUG have been owners a long time. They have paid the same MF's as direct buyers and Marriott has been happy to take their money. That should be worth some sort of a break.

 

[urple2]

On the surface, that makes sense. But, what happens when Marriott tries to sell the next resort? Will they artificially inflate the point allocation to increase sales? Fast forward 5 or 10 years- will that new Florida resort be pricier than some of the premium properties originally were? Does that mean newer resorts will increasingly be allocated more points, making it impossible to trade for a full week there even if using a current premium property?

Absolutely! Just like other point systems when new resorts are built it costs more to build, want more profits thus more points needed for the stay.

 

[PerryM]

That hole in their foot

Did you really buy with Westgate ? damn, talk about losing credibility LOL

Well I know when I've won an argument when the subject needs to be changed LOL!

Seriously, think about my Summit Watch for a second:

I can now exchange my usage there, Gold for Platinum Holiday, with other owners - have done it several times in the past via II. I've snowboarded Park City during Christmas week with my $5,500 resale Gold week. No other Platinum owner wanted it during the 24-day window and Marriott has instructed II to give it to ANY Marriott owner rather than release it to the general II population.

Marriott introduces the new system and I can't do that anymore - what happens to my resale price?

Marriott has decided to interfere with the greatest reason to buy Marriott - the II exchange. Last time I looked that's what the stats said - usage at the home resort is secondary to exchanging with thousands of other owners at thousands of resorts.

No one can stop this and I think Marriott is just shooting itself in the foot but a year from now the results of this will be measurable.

 

[PerryM]

A points system per se is not a bad thing. When I was trying to decide which system to buy into, I liked the points based approach of Hilton but the selection of Marriott. I decided to go with Marriott. The main issue with the new points system that is coming is that it is a change. Unfortunately in this change, the majority (maybe even vast majority) of owners will lose.

I do not doubt at all what Fletch is saying. Platinum owners in desirable places with do really well, everyone else....not so much. Sure the ones that don't do well can just not join the new system. Well guess what, the ones that will make out like bandits (desirable Platinum owners) will join so much of the best weeks won't be in II. Plus any new people who buy direct will just be put in the points system so those weeks will never be available. For those who can travel off season it may not be that bad since they will still have a selection of off season weeks. Those with kids that must go during school breaks don't have that flexibility. They will mainly have to go to the property they own. That's why when I made my buying decision I listened to one of the big rules that many TUGgers told me...buy where you would be happy going. Even though it was in overbuilt Orlando that is where I bought. If I now have to use my property every year, I can live with it. I may not be as happy but I will be going to a place I love.

As far as MF are concerned, I think within the Hilton system it is based on number of bedrooms. So even though a Bronze week has less points they pay the same MF's as a Platinum week. That is why I was considering buying a 1BR platinum (4800 points) vs a 2 BR Gold (5000 points). (Someone please correct me if I have this wrong.)

I also think that within the Hilton system, a couple of the newer Hawaii resorts did have a higher point value than the others. A large chunk of their properties all have the same points based on number of bedrooms and season.

I do not want to start an ROFR argument here but my one question is, how come the one company that uses ROFR the most, Disney, has the highest prices for their resales? I know Disney's name carries a lot of weight, but the percentage discount off retail is way lower than for the other systems that don't defend the ROFR.

Bottom line is Marriott is a for profit company with shareholders to please. That is their first concern, not a bunch of angry TUGgers. As many others have said, the people here are a small minority of Marriott ts owners. Most will have no clue about the change or will just go along and not care. The biggest shame is that they are likely going to be somewhat punitive to resale buyers. My hope is that they do some form of grandfathering the existing owners. While I do not want to throw new resale buyers under the bus, they will know the deal when they buy in and can make a decision based on the information. I have only been an owner for a short time but many resale buyers here on TUG have been owners a long time. They have paid the same MF's as direct buyers and Marriott has been happy to take their money. That should be worth some sort of a break.

Simple answer - Disney OWNS their villas and sells RTU. Of course they have a vested interest in the place. Marriott has NO interest in sold out resorts but hawking old villas along with everyone else. (And cleaning the toilets too)

 

[DanCali]

While I wasn't wasting vacation time playing on the Internet so was unaware of this thread, I had an interesting discussion while away, very different than what was posted here. I was told that the powers that be had filtered down instructions not even to discuss the rumored points system and that it may never be introduced. My source indicated that the whole thing was quite iffy at this point.

Your post (#164) was phenomenal - very thoughtful and to the point. You also indicate the whole thing may be iffy so I'm curious if you can elaborate more on that?

One issue which I am really curious about is will points be tied to MF's? With the Asia Pacific program, each point incurred a set MF, so that Bronze week owners who converted acquired fewer points than Plat. week owners, but also had a lower annual obligation. I really wonder how Marriott will assign points based on season (naturally) but maintain the same MF's at each resort across all seasons despite large variations in point allocation, presumably based on season owned and on view category. I would venture to guess that a Bronze or Silver week owner, who would now get a fraction of the points that a Plat. week owner gets, would expect to pay a lower MF (as occurs in other points based systems); this would create an untenable situation with escalating MF's for Plat. and Gold week owners, who would have to compensate. Alternately, if MF's remain stable across all ownerships, then Bronze and Silver week owners would be paying a proportionally higher MF per point allocated- another inequitable situation. I may be wrong, but I foresee this as a major bone of contention.

Fletch makes a good point about the Maui week owner who paid 80K getting a more equitable trade for additional days when downgrading to an Orlando resort which cost 20K. On the surface, that makes sense. But, what happens when Marriott tries to sell the next resort? Will they artificially inflate the point allocation to increase sales? Fast forward 5 or 10 years- will that new Florida resort be pricier than some of the premium properties originally were? Does that mean newer resorts will increasingly be allocated more points, making it impossible to trade for a full week there even if using a current premium property?

If it's iffy, I'm not sure why all of a sudden you bought into the whole June deadline and feel compelled to speculate It's pretty pointless... Just wait and see what (and if it) happens.

To quickly give you my 2 cents about what I think could happen IF they switch to points - I don't think it will be tied to MFs. I view any points system as an attempt to assign trading power. Just like currently Bronze and Silver weeks don't trade as well as Gold and Platinum weeks in II(given II's TDI, which generally corresponds to this) these weeks would get less points. Just like Orlando Platinum doesn't trade as well as Hawaii or NCV or DSV Platinum, it will get less points. And just like Silver and Bronze owners pay the same MFs as Gold and Platinum now, they will keep doing so. The deal was always that Silver and Bronze week owners paid less upfront and have lower trading power (retail or resale for that matter) but MFs are based on unit size. By the way, I also don't think that deeded view will matter when it comes to getting assigned points just like it doesn't affect II trading power today. The deeded view is for owners to secure the view they want when they visit a home resort.

As you jutifiably point out, this has limitations... To paint a grim scenario that can happen in this situation - to make the most of their ownership the Silver/Bronze weeks will prefer to trade with II. But getting Platinum weeks will become harder and harder as those weeks convert to internal trading. This reduced trading ability will cause many of those owners to bail out, resale prices for those weeks will tank, and delinquencies will get passed on to the remaining owners. MFs will skyrocket as a result and the system may implode in a death spiral. It's a grim and maybe very unlikely scenario scenario, but if you don't believe it can happen visit the Starwood Board and read the 2010 MF sticky... 30% year over year increases at some resorts this year. Needless to say that those weeks hardly sell for $1 today... If Starwood doesn't get a hold on things fast, the system may collapse in the near future. If Marriott follows the same path it could end up the same way.

That's why I'm of the opinion if it ain't broken don't try to fix it. Most Marriott owners love the current product and I can't see how they keep everyone as happy in a points system (again, see Starwood satisfaction survey). Unhappy owners walk away and then trouble begins. If selling new resorts in unviable due to the economy or buyers getting smarter, Marriott should be happy with their 10% management fee - and they do have 50 resorts with happy owners. It's been a profitable business model on hotels - no reason to risk upsetting the whole system.

If they take a long term view - I hope you are correct that it may never be introduced.

 

[jlf58]

TUG is a VERY small %% of owners. The number one complaint of MVCI owners is II.
BTW Great way to avoid the question. So why would you buy Westagte ??

Well I know when I've won an argument when the subject needs to be changed LOL!

Seriously, think about my Summit Watch for a second:

I can now exchange my usage there, Gold for Platinum Holiday, with other owners - have done it several times in the past via II. I've snowboarded Park City during Christmas week with my $5,500 resale Gold week. No other Platinum owner wanted it during the 24-day window and Marriott has instructed II to give it to ANY Marriott owner rather than release it to the general II population.

Marriott introduces the new system and I can't do that anymore - what happens to my resale price?

Marriott has decided to interfere with the greatest reason to buy Marriott - the II exchange. Last time I looked that's what the stats said - usage at the home resort is secondary to exchanging with thousands of other owners at thousands of resorts.

No one can stop this and I think Marriott is just shooting itself in the foot but a year from now the results of this will be measurable.