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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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m61376

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I know I talk a lot about the AP program, but that's about all I know. In the AP program, the point values are guaranteed to stay the same forever. The only shifting is for certain week #'s where a holiday may fall in a different week # for a certain year. I am also told that any added properties will carry consistent values (meaning they would not squeeze out the old owners). Of course, I have not seen this in an official contract form.

I would think the point values would be based on the demand average of your season at your resort (Plat, Silver, Gold). If your resort has several high demand platinum weeks, then your platinum average would give you a higher point value versus a resort with lower demand platinum weeks. Just do averages via the II TDI chart to get you close to the Marriott valuation. Again, I'm only speculating. We will see.

Did you ever inquire as to why they had the relative value differences between the resorts? Was it based on anything concrete? Why was a Plat. Phuket week valued so much less than a Ko'Olina week, and for that matter, why weren't the Hawaii properties similarly valuated? Did you get the impression the values assigned were actually based on some objective factor?
 

Dean

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True, but they can be shifted around like the beach in front of MOC.

I took a tour at Club Intrawest in Whistler many years ago - all the sales reps sold was Christmas and New Year's weeks - they bragged about "The number of Points for a condo can't be changed". All the salesreps talked about were the number of Points needed for the week and they just sold holiday weeks - never brought up the fact of thousands of other owners wanting the same exact thing.

Well they can be shifted around to reflect supply and demand - that's what happened and about 5 years later those two weeks required about double the Points as when I toured. The Points from mud weeks went to nothing and were shifted to holiday weeks which is what salesreps sold.

So will we have a "Beach erosion chart" for all Marriotts now?
They should have the ability to adjust to even out demand. DVC has had several such adjustments over the past couple of years and one some time ago. As a buyer, you need to know about these options and you can't count on the sales staff to fully inform you. It comes down to you have to read the paperwork line by line. CI is an extreme (but good) example because they do not have a home resort priority AND have resorts with a significant seasonal demand variability. This is in part why I stated that Marriott really had to have at least some type of home resort priority and to get certain owners to convert, will likely need a season priority and possibly a view priority.

I own points at Paradise Village in MX which is a single resort that works on points. You actually buy a view type, unit size and season. All points package options are set to match a full week in each unit size, view and season. The reservation period opens 1 Oct for up to 1 Dec of 2 years out. For example, if I were to reserve my specified options this 1 Oct, I could do so as late as Xmas, 2012. Once 1 Jan comes, anyone can reserve any unit available up to that same date. Other specifics include that you have to prepay fees to use the points, there are also fees for cancelations, banking, borrowing and multiple reservations but they are fairly small and seem reasonable. I'm not saying this is the model that Marriott should adopt but I am saying it is a good one from the eye of those that already own and want to convert to a points system. It may be too complicated for Marriott system of resorts though there are potential issues and benefits to consider.
 

Dean

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Did you ever inquire as to why they had the relative value differences between the resorts? Was it based on anything concrete? Why was a Plat. Phuket week valued so much less than a Ko'Olina week, and for that matter, why weren't the Hawaii properties similarly valuated? Did you get the impression the values assigned were actually based on some objective factor?
I would expect the points were a reflection of the market evalation for the underlying value, just like it would be for the prices of a weeks based system. That doesn't necessarily mean it's accurate or workable, see Crystal shores list prices.
 

PerryM

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They should have the ability to adjust to even out demand. DVC has had several such adjustments over the past couple of years and one some time ago. As a buyer, you need to know about these options and you can't count on the sales staff to fully inform you. It comes down to you have to read the paperwork line by line. CI is an extreme (but good) example because they do not have a home resort priority AND have resorts with a significant seasonal demand variability. This is in part why I stated that Marriott really had to have at least some type of home resort priority and to get certain owners to convert, will likely need a season priority and possibly a view priority.

I own points at Paradise Village in MX which is a single resort that works on points. You actually buy a view type, unit size and season. All points package options are set to match a full week in each unit size, view and season. The reservation period opens 1 Oct for up to 1 Dec of 2 years out. For example, if I were to reserve my specified options this 1 Oct, I could do so as late as Xmas, 2012. Once 1 Jan comes, anyone can reserve any unit available up to that same date. Other specifics include that you have to prepay fees to use the points, there are also fees for cancelations, banking, borrowing and multiple reservations but they are fairly small and seem reasonable. I'm not saying this is the model that Marriott should adopt but I am saying it is a good one from the eye of those that already own and want to convert to a points system. It may be too complicated for Marriott system of resorts though there are potential issues and benefits to consider.

Sure in a trust based timeshare this is mandatory - what works today may not work tomorrow unless "adjustments" are made.

This is my great fear with a trust - everything works fine on day-one and suddenly "adjustments" are needed to protect one Marriott owner from other greedy Marriott owners.

It's owner against owner with Marriott the referee and rule maker. "Adjustments", like mind altering drugs, are needed to make it through the year....
 

dougp26364

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True, but they can be shifted around like the sand on the beach in front of MOC.

I took a tour at Club Intrawest in Whistler many years ago - all the sales reps sold was Christmas and New Year's weeks - they bragged about "The number of Points for a condo can't be changed". All the salesreps talked about were the number of Points needed for the week and they just sold holiday weeks - never brought up the fact of thousands of other owners wanting the same exact thing.

Well Points can be shifted around to reflect supply and demand - that's what happened and about 5 years later those two weeks required about double the Points as when I toured. The Points from mud weeks went to nothing and were shifted to holiday weeks which is what salesreps sold.

So will we have a "Beach erosion chart" for all Marriotts now?

Will day-one have Marriott owners happy but a year from then their purchasing power has decreased because of shifting Points? Marriott, of course, has the answer - buy more points!

This is to be expected when one system handles both SELLING the Points and RESERVATIONS with those same Points.

Thinking about shifting a little more, DVC recently did some shifting in how many points were required for certain days of the week for partial stays. However, the total number of points for any given week remained the same.

I believe that HGVC may have eliminated Bronze weeks at some resorts but, those Bronze week owners were elevated to Silver week owners and their points increased accordingly. With HGVC, you pay by the size of the unit and not the number of points. So a 2 bedroom bronze pays the same MF as a 2 bedroom Platinum.
 

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Sure in a trust based timeshare this is mandatory - what works today may not work tomorrow unless "adjustments" are made.

This is my great fear with a trust - everything works fine on day-one and suddenly "adjustments" are needed to protect one Marriott owner from other greedy Marriott owners.

It's owner against owner with Marriott the referee and rule maker. "Adjustments", like mind altering drugs, are needed to make it through the year....
ANY timeshare reservation system is owner against owner to a degree, even in my example above, I'd be competing with other owners who own exactly what I do. Technically this is no different with ANY points system. The numbers and relative chances of you or I getting what we want may vary and I think the fear many here have is that they will have less chance of getting what we want in such a points based system because we've played the game well the way it was set up. Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time. It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year. Perry, my suspicion in your case is that your fear is not of the functioning of the system itself, but in your exchange options (they are separate), or lack of going forward. While I too have weeks I own specifically for internal exchanging, it is not Marriott's responsibility to provide those options to you or I. Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time. It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year.

Thinking about shifting a little more, DVC recently did some shifting in how many points were required for certain days of the week for partial stays. However, the total number of points for any given week remained the same.

I believe that HGVC may have eliminated Bronze weeks at some resorts but, those Bronze week owners were elevated to Silver week owners and their points increased accordingly. With HGVC, you pay by the size of the unit and not the number of points. So a 2 bedroom bronze pays the same MF as a 2 bedroom Platinum.
One correction Doug, DVC did shift recently a fairly large reallocation which had to be done over 2 years due to the limitation of no more than 15% change per year. However, points for specifics weeks can and did change, it's only the points for the entire resort that must remain the same (not even for a given unit size). It's a little more technical than that but that gives you the end product.
 

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I love toast in the morning...

ANY timeshare reservation system is owner against owner to a degree, even in my example above, I'd be competing with other owners who own exactly what I do. Technically this is no different with ANY points system. The numbers and relative chances of you or I getting what we want may vary and I think the fear many here have is that they will have less chance of getting what we want in such a points based system because we've played the game well the way it was set up. Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time. It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year. Perry, my suspicion in your case is that your fear is not of the functioning of the system itself, but in your exchange options (they are separate), or lack of going forward. While I too have weeks I own specifically for internal exchanging, it is not Marriott's responsibility to provide those options to you or I. Such adjustment options are really important to the health of a points based system because it allows you to actually alter and even out demand of a given time. It is healthy for a resort to have a fairly even demand throughout the year.

...

Not arguing about dog eat dog - that's how it's now for many Marriott reservations.

But, what I'm going to be looking at is very simple - is Marriott going to take into account existing supply/demand now so future adjustments are small or are they going to introduce a totally phony Points calendar designed to sucker owners in and requires HUGE shift in Points to reflect reality.

I can't guess what Marriott will do - 10 minutes with the Points charts should shed some light.

I'm assuming my Gold Summit Watch is toast in a new trust based system but who knows...
 

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Marriott sales staff must attend a mandatory meeting this week. The employee I spoke with assumes it is related to the topic of this thread.
 

PerryM

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Chicken!

...

One correction Doug, DVC did shift recently a fairly large reallocation which had to be done over 2 years due to the limitation of no more than 15% change per year. However, points for specifics weeks can and did change, it's only the points for the entire resort that must remain the same (not even for a given unit size). It's a little more technical than that but that gives you the end product.

Wow! Wow! Wow!

If Marriott only requires all Points for a resort to remain constant that means all kinds of games with Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus are possible. Then studio, 1BR, 2BR, etc. Then individual weeks.

Now that would be very clever on Marriott's part - favor Platinum today and when they snap up a bunch of Bronze weeks then favor Bronze and then Silver, etc.

Talk about the fox in the hen house, how about the fox designing and building the hen house, and then guarding the hen house.

Geez.
 
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pharmgirl

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Not arguing about dog eat dog - that's how it's now for many Marriott reservations.

But, what I'm going to be looking at is very simple - is Marriott going to take into account existing supply/demand now so future adjustments are small or are they going to introduce a totally phony Points calendar designed to sucker owners in and requires HUGE shift in Points to reflect reality.

I can't guess what Marriott will do - 10 minutes with the Points charts should shed some light.

Too funny
This entire thread is guessing
 

PerryM

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Set your pressure cooker to "Detonate"....

...
Too funny
This entire thread is guessing

Thank you I try my best...

I don't know about some of you but I deal with unknowns all the time and have to make plans for them. Stock market goes down - I do something, goes up I do something. But I have spent 25 years now playing "what if" in order to make two simple decisions.

I will be very surprised if Marriott doesn't use all its past tricks to woo 400,000 owners into the new system - whatever it is.

We know their past sales tricks and pressure is a key component - "All these goodies are yours today but you must sign RIGHT NOW".

This same pressure will be applied on opening day and those Marriott owners who get word that day will be put into the same exact moment in time "Sign now or all the goodies disappear".

I don't know about many of you but I need to practice and play what-if games if I want to exploit any opportunities presented me.

To each their own...

P.S.
If Marriott introduces a trust based Point system there is NO bigger news in the past 20+ years they have been in existence. I suggest many review their own situation and see if we have covered a similar situation here - it might shed some insight as to what to do.

Because all of you will be required to make a decision on the day of announcement. It maybe as simple as "I'm EOY and SOL", or it might be "Marriott is offering me 100,000 MRPs to convert - do we convert, pay some money and come out ahead?" or it might be "My Gold week sucks and I'll keep it".

And knowing Marriott sales, delay in a decision will cost you....
 
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Doc107

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I am enrolled in a Marriott Webinar on June 16th to discuss "How to Exchange Marriott weeks throught II." If they are bringing out a new program, perhaps that will make this an interesting Webinar. Or is this just a standard request from Marriott that I've deleted over the years?

This is the text:

It is my pleasure to invite you to join fellow new Owners for a web based seminar (webinar) that will discuss how to exchange your Marriott Vacation Club week through Interval International to experience a new destination.

Each year, over 40% of Marriott Vacation Club owners exchange their week(s) with Interval International, our exchange partner. This webinar will cover the different exchange methods, comparability factors, the Travel Demand index, and tips and tricks to help you comfirm your vacation with Interval International. I am confident that you will have a greater understanding of how to maximize your vacation ownership with Marriott Vacation Club after participating in our webinar.
 

aka Julie

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I am enrolled in a Marriott Webinar on June 16th to discuss "How to Exchange Marriott weeks throught II." If they are bringing out a new program, perhaps that will make this an interesting Webinar. Or is this just a standard request from Marriott that I've deleted over the years?

This is the text:

It is my pleasure to invite you to join fellow new Owners for a web based seminar (webinar) that will discuss how to exchange your Marriott Vacation Club week through Interval International to experience a new destination.

Each year, over 40% of Marriott Vacation Club owners exchange their week(s) with Interval International, our exchange partner. This webinar will cover the different exchange methods, comparability factors, the Travel Demand index, and tips and tricks to help you comfirm your vacation with Interval International. I am confident that you will have a greater understanding of how to maximize your vacation ownership with Marriott Vacation Club after participating in our webinar.

We got one of these e-mails a couple of months ago and we're not new owners by any stretch of the imagination. Have owned 2 weeks (developer bought) for 10 years. Our last purchase was in 2008 and was a resale. I can't imagine this will cover the "new" program.
 

Doc107

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I agree it's just regularly scheduled updates, but given it occurs on June 16th, makes it a little more interesting. I wonder if they'll allow questions?!
 

Doc107

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Both of my Marriott properties are re-sales so I am also a bit concerned with new policies. Guess we just wait and see, then make individual decisions. Fortunately, I purchased my 2 Marriotts for very low prices.
 

GaryDouglas

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The Quickening...

Dear Monitor/s:

When Marriott finally makes the new system known, please make sure it is posted in a new thread. That way we will have one thread dedicated to conjecture of the unknown, VS the conjecture of the known.

Another thought, probably directed to Dave M, that the new program as stated by Marriott would be worthy of a new Sticky. Dave and maybe other monitors would add their interpretation of the implications of the new system. If this sticky were created, is there a way to set up tags or whatever Google uses to queue on so that all unsuspecting prospective and current Marriott owners could be directed to this sticky when doing searches? That way, we all could make more informed decissions.

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free...
 
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Dean

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Not arguing about dog eat dog - that's how it's now for many Marriott reservations.

But, what I'm going to be looking at is very simple - is Marriott going to take into account existing supply/demand now so future adjustments are small or are they going to introduce a totally phony Points calendar designed to sucker owners in and requires HUGE shift in Points to reflect reality.

I can't guess what Marriott will do - 10 minutes with the Points charts should shed some light.

I'm assuming my Gold Summit Watch is toast in a new trust based system but who knows...
None of us know what will happen. I doubt Summit Watch Gold will be toast, I actually suspect it'll fare good to very good on the other side, if you can feasibly get there. So since it seems we agree on the fact that it's you against me (figuratively) now and will be with any new system, all the remains is the relative chances of a given reservation for a specific situation and whether we can/should change from one to the other. I have no doubt that those on this thread will be able to make any system work once a participant but that doesn't mean the new system will work better or that it will be worse, we simply don't know at present.

Wow! Wow! Wow!

If Marriott only requires all Points for a resort to remain constant that means all kinds of games with Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus are possible. Then studio, 1BR, 2BR, etc. Then individual weeks.

Now that would be very clever on Marriott's part - favor Platinum today and when they snap up a bunch of Bronze weeks then favor Bronze and then Silver, etc.

Talk about the fox in the hen house, how about the fox designing and building the hen house, and then guarding the hen house.

Geez.
Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility. Do realize though that a points system has the ability to even out demand across even low demand times and this comes with a potential variable that we don't face now with Marriott, that it's POSSIBLE that the rules could have a built in likelihood of changing over and above the other long term timeshare variables. It really depends on how they set it up. If they link the points to a given unit type owned, they likely will not have this option as a possibility. If they model it after CI and what they have already with the Asia points option where the points are held in trust and there is no home resort priority or even a more strict season type of priority, this would be very likely to be included IMO. And if they do, it's likely they will have new resorts and those still in active sales with a sizable inventory with this option and those that are nearly or sold out, set up a different way.

Another possibility is they could actually open it up for a vote at each resort they decide to include and I suspect it would require a super majority (? 60 or 66.6%) of the actual owners (not just those that vote) to make such a change. BTW, I don't think we've discussed the possibility very much, but it's possible that certain seasons won't even be included and possible that a couple of resorts won't be included at all (HP, SP, VAIL, ? Monarch). IF that happens anyone that owns there should sell as fast as they can because that makes my prediction that any resorts not included will depart from Marriott at some point in the not too distant future (when management contracts are up) almost a certainty.
 

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No Soliciting Allowed!

None of us know what will happen. I doubt Summit Watch Gold will be toast, I actually suspect it'll fare good to very good on the other side, if you can feasibly get there. So since it seems we agree on the fact that it's you against me (figuratively) now and will be with any new system, all the remains is the relative chances of a given reservation for a specific situation and whether we can/should change from one to the other. I have no doubt that those on this thread will be able to make any system work once a participant but that doesn't mean the new system will work better or that it will be worse, we simply don't know at present.

Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility. Do realize though that a points system has the ability to even out demand across even low demand times and this comes with a potential variable that we don't face now with Marriott, that it's POSSIBLE that the rules could have a built in likelihood of changing over and above the other long term timeshare variables. It really depends on how they set it up. If they link the points to a given unit type owned, they likely will not have this option as a possibility. If they model it after CI and what they have already with the Asia points option where the points are held in trust and there is no home resort priority or even a more strict season type of priority, this would be very likely to be included IMO. And if they do, it's likely they will have new resorts and those still in active sales with a sizable inventory with this option and those that are nearly or sold out, set up a different way.

Another possibility is they could actually open it up for a vote at each resort they decide to include and I suspect it would require a super majority (? 60 or 66.6%) of the actual owners (not just those that vote) to make such a change. BTW, I don't think we've discussed the possibility very much, but it's possible that certain seasons won't even be included and possible that a couple of resorts won't be included at all (HP, SP, VAIL, ? Monarch). IF that happens anyone that owns there should sell as fast as they can because that makes my prediction that any resorts not included will depart from Marriott at some point in the not too distant future (when management contracts are up) almost a certainty.

I'll use your own words:
"Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility"

In my wildest imagination I can't see Marriott opening up voting in any way for any reason. If Marriott wanted input they had 4 years to solicit our opinions - I've not heard a peep from them.

No focus groups, no webinars, not even a phone call - just the salesrep "Better not buy resale our you'll be sorry".
 

Dean

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I'll use your own words:
"Don't go there with the conspiracy theory again, it undermines your credibility"

In my wildest imagination I can't see Marriott opening up voting in any way for any reason. If Marriott wanted input they had 4 years to solicit our opinions - I've not heard a peep from them.

No focus groups, no webinars, not even a phone call - just the salesrep "Better not buy resale our you'll be sorry".
I'm not saying they will, only that it's possible and it's the only way I see they could convert over resorts that are sold out to a true trust based generic system. They could still convert the segments for those that have converted if they signed up for it but not completely if they match dues to points rather than dues to a week/season. And pointing out that there would be pretty stringent requirements to convert an entire existing resort, I'm just not sure what the level of requirement is and I'm too lazy to go digging through my POS info for any of my resorts to check it out.
 
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They sent out an email questionaire a year ago asking how much we would pay to buy into a point system........
 

dougp26364

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Wow! Wow! Wow!

If Marriott only requires all Points for a resort to remain constant that means all kinds of games with Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus are possible. Then studio, 1BR, 2BR, etc. Then individual weeks.

Now that would be very clever on Marriott's part - favor Platinum today and when they snap up a bunch of Bronze weeks then favor Bronze and then Silver, etc.

Talk about the fox in the hen house, how about the fox designing and building the hen house, and then guarding the hen house.

Geez.

Of note, DVC is the only points based reservation system I know to have ever done this and, it makes me less inclined to purchase from them. When I make a purchase, I'm looking at usage in specific timeframes for that resort. Should Marriott allow themselves the leasure of changing the point requirements for me to go to that resort during the specific timeframe I purchased it will be thanks but no thanks.

My big concern should this be a part of Marriott's points package is my ownership at Ocean Pointe. We bought Silver season specifically to use in either November or December. Oceana Palms 1 mile north has no such thing as Silver season. Marriott would need to assure me, in writing, that the points for specific weeks can never change or, they'll need to upgrade me in season so that I can still get the weeks I want. A few of those Silver season weeks are platinum at Oceana Palms. I'll be VERY interested to see how they structure the points at Ocean Pointe.
 

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Of note, DVC is the only points based reservation system I know to have ever done this and, it makes me less inclined to purchase from them. When I make a purchase, I'm looking at usage in specific timeframes for that resort. Should Marriott allow themselves the leasure of changing the point requirements for me to go to that resort during the specific timeframe I purchased it will be thanks but no thanks.

My big concern should this be a part of Marriott's points package is my ownership at Ocean Pointe. We bought Silver season specifically to use in either November or December. Oceana Palms 1 mile north has no such thing as Silver season. Marriott would need to assure me, in writing, that the points for specific weeks can never change or, they'll need to upgrade me in season so that I can still get the weeks I want. A few of those Silver season weeks are platinum at Oceana Palms. I'll be VERY interested to see how they structure the points at Ocean Pointe.

I think you'll have more luck if you use my secret PowerBall numbers that eventually will hit - in about 7.9 billion years...
 

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They sent out an email questionaire a year ago asking how much we would pay to buy into a point system........

Good god I hope you told them a very low number between $1 and $9...
 

Dean

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Of note, DVC is the only points based reservation system I know to have ever done this and, it makes me less inclined to purchase from them. When I make a purchase, I'm looking at usage in specific timeframes for that resort. Should Marriott allow themselves the leasure of changing the point requirements for me to go to that resort during the specific timeframe I purchased it will be thanks but no thanks.

My big concern should this be a part of Marriott's points package is my ownership at Ocean Pointe. We bought Silver season specifically to use in either November or December. Oceana Palms 1 mile north has no such thing as Silver season. Marriott would need to assure me, in writing, that the points for specific weeks can never change or, they'll need to upgrade me in season so that I can still get the weeks I want. A few of those Silver season weeks are platinum at Oceana Palms. I'll be VERY interested to see how they structure the points at Ocean Pointe.
Perry mentioned Club Intrawest which I understand had a far greater alteration for some weeks. Personally I want a system that runs efficiently and manages their resources. To me it was DVC's responsibility and ? legal requirement to reallocated given their setup and the shift in demand over the years. One of the reasons the shift was so large was they had put it off too long. The info I had suggested they should have had enough information to plan the change from 1999 to 2000 and implement it in 200-2001 rather than 2009. But they did likely go overboard in the weekend vs weekday adjustments and one must ask WHY. They also will almost certainly have to adjust some seasons as well, esp early and mid December.

On your second point, it does give a dilemma for places like OP vs Oceana Palms and Lakeshore vs GV which have very different seasons for the same demand. On a smaller scale even for the 2 weeks at HH that are Plat for BB and Surfwatch and Gold at GO.
 
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