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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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Swice

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Rumor de jour

Rumor of the day (Friday June 4, 2010):

Was told Marriott is really working hard to keep everything under wraps for a couple of more weeks.

Management has reportedly told associates NOT to discuss it and the company appears to be serious. An associate told me today a "sales person" in Orlando was fired a few days ago for discussing the new system during a "presentation."

This associate was very careful with his/her words but indicated associates would learn more themselves in about a week.

;)

High school french was a long time ago-- it's "du jour."
 
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dougp26364

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Rumor of the day (Friday June 4, 2010):

Was told Marriott is really working hard to keep everything under wraps for a couple of more weeks.

Management has reportedly told associates NOT to discuss it and the company appears to be serious. An associate told me today a "sales person" in Orlando was fired a few days ago for discussing the new system during a "presentation."

This associate was very careful with his/her words but indicated associates would learn more themselves in about a week.

;)

That's akin to closing the barn door after the horses are out. Sales reps have been spreading the word/rumor for at least two years now.
 

Dean

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1643 posts on a topic no one knows anything about!

What a colossal waste of time! LOL
I don't agree. I think it's good to get everyone's perspective and even better to hash out some of the possibilities to get us all thinking. Is it a lot of effort for minimal gain, absolutely, but I don't see it as a total waste.

So what is the no more EOY's being sold by Marriott mean for those of us trying to resell our EOY unit through Marriott? Any thoughts?
It likely means you are SOL when it comes to Marriott selling. If they are not going to sell EOY points contracts and no longer sell weeks including resale, I suspect everyone who's currently listed with them will get a letter soon after any announcement. Maybe there will be a grace period but I doubt more than to the end of the year. I still bet you'll be able to convert but you may have to upgrade to do so, we'll see.

Rumor of the day (Friday June 4, 2010):

Was told Marriott is really working hard to keep everything under wraps for a couple of more weeks.

Management has reportedly told associates NOT to discuss it and the company appears to be serious. An associate told me today a "sales person" in Orlando was fired a few days ago for discussing the new system during a "presentation."

This associate was very careful with his/her words but indicated associates would learn more themselves in about a week.

;)

High school french was a long time ago-- it's "du jour."
I assume you're serious though the wink at the end did give me pause. It doesn't surprise me at all if this is what you were told as I've posted this very issue as a concern twice in this thread. Still, it's unlikely a stellar employee were let go in this situation, if it happened, it was likely the last straw in a series of issues. However, I have seen stellar employees let go on similar breeches in other fields.
 

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Employee was serious

Yes, the employee telling me this was serious.

Obviously, I don't know details about what the associate said/spilled during the presentation. I would imagine the associate was saying something that could have derailed a possible sale before the changes took place????
 

m61376

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Most Marriott owners will simply be overwhelmed and just go with whatever Marriott recommends.

In another market I'd agree. But, the reality is that today money is tight for many people and I think many (perhaps most) people will think twice about shelling out thousands of dollars, IF that is the fee to join.

I also think Marirott owners like the concept of owning deeded weeks, and whether that notion has any real benefit is immaterial. I am not so sure that people will jump to give up their deeds, again if that's part of the plan. And I also think people are used to having home resort priority and, again, especially for premium week owners, I think Marriott is going to find that a hurdle if they go to purely a trust based system.

Time, of course, will tell....
 

m61376

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1643 posts on a topic no one knows anything about!

What a colossal waste of time! LOL

Actually, I am really glad I've wasted the time in this thread. Besides the entertainment aspect ;) , I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of Perry's prognostications come to fruition, and that there were some early sign on bonuses. I feel like I've learned enough to be able to evaluate the program to see how it would work for us. I appreciate the insight others have given and, even though some of the suggestions may have been far fetched, overall they will help when we have to really analyze what's being offered.
 

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I eventually recieved notification by E-mail. I'd imagine all you would need to do is call MVCI and you'll be directed to the telephone sales dept.

Originally Posted by Fletch
Doug,

The reason that thier EOY weeks are cheap is they have come out and said they dont convert in the new system so anyone with EOY's is SOL.
I know what you are saying but this is what MVCI has said !

Confused. Did MVCI, the company, make an announcement that EOY will not trade into the new system or was this information from an MVCI employee providing insight into the new system?
 
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dougp26364

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In another market I'd agree. But, the reality is that today money is tight for many people and I think many (perhaps most) people will think twice about shelling out thousands of dollars, IF that is the fee to join.

I also think Marirott owners like the concept of owning deeded weeks, and whether that notion has any real benefit is immaterial. I am not so sure that people will jump to give up their deeds, again if that's part of the plan. And I also think people are used to having home resort priority and, again, especially for premium week owners, I think Marriott is going to find that a hurdle if they go to purely a trust based system.

Time, of course, will tell....

I think tuggers like the idea of owning deeded weeks. I've spoken with so many clueless timeshare owners over the years I'm not so certain John Q. Public will think of much past all the bells and whistle's any new points program, trust or deeded, will thow at them.

I do agree about the cost. In a tight economy, even all the bells and whistle's in the world won't pry open a checkbook far enough to dump thousands more into something that's already cost the owner thousands of dollars. If the price is in the hundreds I see more people jumping despite giving up their deed.
 

dougp26364

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Confused. Did MVCI, the company, make an announcement that EOY will not trade into the new system or was this information from an MVCI employee providing insight into the new system?

Former employee.

No acknowledgement has been made from Marriott that there is even a new program in the works.
 

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Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat...

In another market I'd agree. But, the reality is that today money is tight for many people and I think many (perhaps most) people will think twice about shelling out thousands of dollars, IF that is the fee to join.

I also think Marirott owners like the concept of owning deeded weeks, and whether that notion has any real benefit is immaterial. I am not so sure that people will jump to give up their deeds, again if that's part of the plan. And I also think people are used to having home resort priority and, again, especially for premium week owners, I think Marriott is going to find that a hurdle if they go to purely a trust based system.

Time, of course, will tell....

In a trust based Points system the Platinum and above owners in Hawaii will gladly see a decrease in their MFs. In Branson Missouri those folks will see their MFs go up slightly.

But just like Lance Burton makes a Corvette fly most Marriott owners will be so overwhelmed and panic at the price increases the longer they wait that Marriott is shooting fish in an aquarium. Hell, they're using a stick of dynamite to fish. Marriott owners will be mesmerized at all the wonderful things promised them.

Just like Lance has you watching his right hand while his left hand moves one step ahead, so will Marriott choreograph a roll-out that will easily convince owners that even hesitating even a day means higher costs and fewer goodies.

There is only so much elasticity to how far they can go - that's what Marriott must hopefully reach before they do reach a wall of owners who don't have the money to spend.

I can't guess if they will make it but they must assume they can do this.
 
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m61376

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Well, we're just a little over a week away. I think it is a bit surprising that there hasn't been any official preview announcement. I would have expected an e-mail marketing blast- "in just 2 weeks Marriott will introduce major enhancements to your ownership" or the like. Yet mums still the word.

IF Perry is right about the MF's, then I would foresee Branson owners balking, especially if they receive substantially lower point valuations. I think the average Marriott owners will believe whatever Marriott promotes wrt "ease of making reservations wherever and whenever" but I do think in this economy especially cost of joining, MF's and what they are getting relative to everyone else will be a big consideration for people. I'm not so sure that most owners are unsophisticated enough just to go with the flow, and their scrutiny will increase with the membership fee.

A program akin to the Asia Pacific program, forgetting about the 5K nut to crack, I think will be a hard sell here. Maybe I am wrong, but those Platinum Manor Club, Orlando, Branson, etc. week owners like getting their 2BR exchanges into other premium weeks like Hawaii, ski weeks, Aruba, summer HH and NCV, Plat. Caribbean weeks, etc.. In the AP program even a Waiohai owner couldn't exchange for a Ko'Olina unit in a like for like basis (size/length of stay) unless they borrowed or added points from elsewhere. I'm not so sure that owners of what they consider great weeks are going to be smiling after they see the value Marriott puts on their weeks. I think Marriott is going to need to be able to convince folks that the valuations make sense, because IF Marriott embraces the same type of wide point variability as in the AP program I think a lot of owners are going to be turned off because they are certain their week should have been awarded more points.

Several methods for awarding points have been suggested. IF they are simply tied to the number of reward points a week can trade for, then owners at older resorts (many of which have been refurbished, and all of which have been maintained, at the expense of the owners) will likely feel slighted because you could have higher demand and premium weeks valued lower just because they are older. For example, are the reward point valuations currently given for developer owners trading in their weeks at the HH resorts all the same? The same argument can be made if they are tied to the initial pricing; inflation shouldn't determine valuations. If they are made pretty uniform across the board (as I believe HGVC mostly does) then people who shelled out 40-80K for a week are going to resent getting the same or similar points as people who bought less expensive weeks. The only reasonable method I can see that reflects market demand (which is what the points value should reflect) is if the point valuations are based on average rental rates for the season, which Marriott can easily calculate. IF they do that, then I think people would, perhaps grudgingly in some cases, have to acknowledge that at least Marriott was objectively ascribing values. I can't think of any other objective reflection of market demand (and isn't value a reflection of market demand?). The only other reflection of market demand is, or course, purchase price- but that also reflects the time of sale, where rental reflect relative demand across the board in the same frame of time.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think most owners will look at two things very carefully- what it will cost them (which means the fee to join and how it will impact their MF's) and what it will get them (and the number of points assigned is a biggie here). And Marriott has the daunting task of convincing those that fall at the short end of the stick, or get less than they thought they should (which, given human nature, will likely be many if not most people) that they are, in fact, getting their fair share.
 

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good morning...

Three simple questions to be asked!!!

1) What will this cost to join?
2) What will the MF's be???
3) What can I get?? a.k.a THE "CHART" (point values/unit)

the answers will determine the converters from the non converters...
 

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I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system. Any thoughts? This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.
 

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I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system. Any thoughts? This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.

I think it would naturally fall by the wayside. Owners will likely get assignments based on their owned property and would have internal trading through Marriott not just for 5 other Florida properties, but throughout the system. The only difference is it won't just be simple trades, but there will be relative costs between properties (assuming variable point assignments).
 

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Well of course for anyone going away from fee simple ownership of your unit, I am comfortable that whatever points value Marriott assigns to anything will be good for a limited time, then "inflation" will take over as it has both with Marriott the last few years on what point are worth with their properties (a whole lot less than they were).
Of course we all have to wait and see but in the end will probably be a sucker's bet at Marriott's benefit over the next few years:shrug:
 

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Well of course for anyone going away from fee simple ownership of your unit, I am comfortable that whatever points value Marriott assigns to anything will be good for a limited time, then "inflation" will take over as it has both with Marriott the last few years on what point are worth with their properties (a whole lot less than they were).
Of course we all have to wait and see but in the end will probably be a sucker's bet at Marriott's benefit over the next few years:shrug:
I would assume that there would be some type of lock on the points. As a min, that the total points for the year at a given resort could not change though they'll have to retain some option to rearrange them if needed.

I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system. Any thoughts? This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.
I don't know. Certainly if you convert you'd lose the FL club but pick up a replacement that should do everything better and earlier than the FC. The real issues though is what happens to those in the FC if they don't convert, that I do not know. If the club goes away, the fee should as well. I simply don't know if the FC is contractual enough to force it to continue though given that those eligible don't have a choice (is my understanding), it might be.
 

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I know I talk a lot about the AP program, but that's about all I know. In the AP program, the point values are guaranteed to stay the same forever. The only shifting is for certain week #'s where a holiday may fall in a different week # for a certain year. I am also told that any added properties will carry consistent values (meaning they would not squeeze out the old owners). Of course, I have not seen this in an official contract form.

I would think the point values would be based on the demand average of your season at your resort (Plat, Silver, Gold). If your resort has several high demand platinum weeks, then your platinum average would give you a higher point value versus a resort with lower demand platinum weeks. Just do averages via the II TDI chart to get you close to the Marriott valuation. Again, I'm only speculating. We will see.
 

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Hawaii - how to sell Points there?

WorldMark can't sell their Points (Credits) in Hawaii - Hawaiians want to see specific deeds or Right to Use documents for each and every week/point in a Hawaiian timeshare - WM doesn't sell that way so they don't sell there - the big sales gallery they built in Kihei is full of moldy rugs. (I'm not a lawyer but this is what I understand the law to be)

How will Marriott handle sales in Hawaii? How does a trust sell there?

Disney is finishing their new resort there but the RTU's Points are tied to that timeshare and the Hawaiians are happy.

1 week until we find out...
 
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dougp26364

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Well of course for anyone going away from fee simple ownership of your unit, I am comfortable that whatever points value Marriott assigns to anything will be good for a limited time, then "inflation" will take over as it has both with Marriott the last few years on what point are worth with their properties (a whole lot less than they were).
Of course we all have to wait and see but in the end will probably be a sucker's bet at Marriott's benefit over the next few years:shrug:

In every points system I've seen, once points are assigned to a unit, they never change. The biggest changes come when new properties are built. The newer properties often require more in points to trade into. But then again, that's sort of how it works with the weeks based system. Demand is high for the new resort and one needs more trade power to get the higher demand weeks. The difference would be that, over time, demand cools off as the new wears off. Thus weeks that were once hard to get become easier. I would imagine that Oceana Palms is somewhat difficult to get right now but Ocean Pointe may have become easier over the years.

As to MF's in trust based systems. What is suppose to happen is that every unit week is pooled in the trust. All the MF's and expenses are pooled. The MF's and expenses are then divided by the number of points outstanding in the trust pool and owners are charged a flat fee per point. Thus, as Perry points out, those in high demand and high expense resorts benefit while those in lower demand and lower cost resorts are punished.

In our case with DRI and Polo Towers, by staying in the deeded owner but member of the internal points program rather than joining the Hawaiian or even the US trust, my MF's are $500/year lower (two units) than if I joined one of the trusts. Needless to say I saw very little advantage to giving DRI my deeds and voting rights just to be able to book any resort in their trust at 13 months rather than 10 months. In this case, earlier booking for resorts in the trust was the only advantage I could see. It wasn't worth the increase in MF's IMHO.

Will Marriott's be a trust based ownership? Will it be an overlay points program with deeded weeks backing the points? Will it be a combination of both? Who knows. We'll have to wait a couple of more weeks to find out. I'm hoping it's just a points overlay internal exhange program. I haven't been pleased with any trust based ownership I've seen so far.
 

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WorldMark can't sell their Points (Credits) in Hawaii - Hawaiians want to see specific deeds or Right to Use documents for each and every week/point in a Hawaiian timeshare - WM doesn't sell that way so they don't sell there - the big sales gallery they built in Kihei is full of moldy rugs. (I'm not a lawyer but this is what I understand the law to be)

How will Marriott handle sales in Hawaii? How does a trust sell there?

Disney is finishing their new resort there but the RTU's Points are tied to that timeshare and the Hawaiians are happy.

1 week until we find out...

I think Worldmark has some other issues. DRI sells trust based ownerships in Hawaii on Kauai and Maui. DRI doesn't sell deeds with their trusts as far as I know. It's strictly a trust based ownership.
 

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Hup - two - three - four....

I haven't seen any discussion in this thread about how Marriott might handle the Florida Club in their new system. Any thoughts? This may not even be a consideration for me since I bought EOY private sale.

The Florida Club will probably join EOY owners on their march to extinction ...
 

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I think Worldmark has some other issues. DRI sells trust based ownerships in Hawaii on Kauai and Maui. DRI doesn't sell deeds with their trusts as far as I know. It's strictly a trust based ownership.

That could very well be - just the scuttlebutt I heard for the moldy rugs in Kihei.
 

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That crazy beach in front of the Maui Ocean Club is a warning...

In every points system I've seen, once points are assigned to a unit, they never change. The biggest changes come when new properties are built. The newer properties often require more in points to trade into. But then again, that's sort of how it works with the weeks based system. Demand is high for the new resort and one needs more trade power to get the higher demand weeks. The difference would be that, over time, demand cools off as the new wears off. Thus weeks that were once hard to get become easier. I would imagine that Oceana Palms is somewhat difficult to get right now but Ocean Pointe may have become easier over the years.

As to MF's in trust based systems. What is suppose to happen is that every unit week is pooled in the trust. All the MF's and expenses are pooled. The MF's and expenses are then divided by the number of points outstanding in the trust pool and owners are charged a flat fee per point. Thus, as Perry points out, those in high demand and high expense resorts benefit while those in lower demand and lower cost resorts are punished.

In our case with DRI and Polo Towers, by staying in the deeded owner but member of the internal points program rather than joining the Hawaiian or even the US trust, my MF's are $500/year lower (two units) than if I joined one of the trusts. Needless to say I saw very little advantage to giving DRI my deeds and voting rights just to be able to book any resort in their trust at 13 months rather than 10 months. In this case, earlier booking for resorts in the trust was the only advantage I could see. It wasn't worth the increase in MF's IMHO.

Will Marriott's be a trust based ownership? Will it be an overlay points program with deeded weeks backing the points? Will it be a combination of both? Who knows. We'll have to wait a couple of more weeks to find out. I'm hoping it's just a points overlay internal exhange program. I haven't been pleased with any trust based ownership I've seen so far.

True, but they can be shifted around like the sand on the beach in front of MOC.

I took a tour at Club Intrawest in Whistler many years ago - all the sales reps sold was Christmas and New Year's weeks - they bragged about "The number of Points for a condo can't be changed". All the salesreps talked about were the number of Points needed for the week and they just sold holiday weeks - never brought up the fact of thousands of other owners wanting the same exact thing.

Well Points can be shifted around to reflect supply and demand - that's what happened and about 5 years later those two weeks required about double the Points as when I toured. The Points from mud weeks went to nothing and were shifted to holiday weeks which is what salesreps sold.

So will we have a "Beach erosion chart" for all Marriotts now?

Will day-one have Marriott owners happy but a year from then their purchasing power has decreased because of shifting Points? Marriott, of course, has the answer - buy more points!

This is to be expected when one system handles both SELLING the Points and RESERVATIONS with those same Points.
 
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Dean

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WorldMark can't sell their Points (Credits) in Hawaii - Hawaiians want to see specific deeds or Right to Use documents for each and every week/point in a Hawaiian timeshare - WM doesn't sell that way so they don't sell there - the big sales gallery they built in Kihei is full of moldy rugs. (I'm not a lawyer but this is what I understand the law to be)

How will Marriott handle sales in Hawaii? How does a trust sell there?

Disney is finishing their new resort there but the RTU's Points are tied to that timeshare and the Hawaiians are happy.

1 week until we find out...
Marriott already sells points for HI as well as Wyndham, DRI, Shell and Hilton (likely others). I left out Bluegreen because I don't think they actually sell points directly for the Kauai resort they are involved in but Jim can likely say for sure. But selling in different legal markets is certainly a challenge with timeshares because you have to be licensed to sell in the given state of the person you're selling to OR you have to have them physically in a state you can sell to for any legal actions to take place. With some states I believe they have rules/laws specifically for "vacation clubs" that are somewhat separate from timeshares. Trust based timeshares would blur this distinction it seems to me as do, I know they do in FL.
 
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