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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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PerryM

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Marriott is just doing what ALL Resort Developers do. They double, triple and quadruple dip on their current customer base at 2-3 times what an educated buyer would pay. Nobody here should be surprised. In fact, we should anticipate and exploit it. It's so predictable that it's easy to capitalize on (or be eaten alive by) their future actions.

Marriott will definitely launch a points system sometime in the near future. If not June, then some other time within the foreseeable future. Why? Because they can make even more money by selling the same inventory and access to inventory to new owners that they already sold to past customers. They will be able to re-acquire inventory at pennies on the dollar and then resell the same product again and again to new suckers who are born every day.

Moreover, access to inventory is a zero sum game. If you give access to one group, another group loses it. That IS what developers do. But, all is not lost. In fact, this creates more opportunity for all of us here on TUG funded by Retail owners who buy directly from Marriott. Smart resale buyers will always be able to get a lion share of the benefit for a fraction of the cost. Being a member of TUG, you have decided to take the "RED" pill. Stick around and we will tell you how deep the rabbit hole goes. I've been to the bottom and it's an unbelievable place. This new Marriott point system will be no different.

Those who are trying to figure out what to do are thinking about the situation incorrectly. That thinking as expressed in above posts will force you to make the same mistake over and over again. Stop doing that! Start thinking like an opportunist and not a fairness advocate. Timesharing is inherently unfair. Either get on the same side as the opportunists or get eaten alive by them. Sorry, but timesharing is all about survival of the fittest and smartest at making the rules work for them... whatever they are. Everyone else pays for their cheap vacations.

It's clear to me that Marriott will try to coerce owners into the new system. They will do it by scaring owners into believing that the only way to get access to prime inventory is to turn their prime weeks over to Marriott control. Many many owners will fall for this while making additional purchases. Marriott will lure us into their trap by taking all of their inventory and put it into the points pool. What once went to II exchangers will no longer be available. It will now be in the Marriott's own Flexchange program. In addition, Marriott will subsidize maintenance fees for a few years so that a comparison of what owners currently pay vs. what they will have after a small retail purchase will be artificially lower for now. Later, those fees will be raised at a much higher than inflation rate to catch up with the subsidies as they remove them. It's the oldest trick in the book.

So, the counter Marriott's actions, it is very likely that the smartest move will be to determine where the great inventory actually is. Then, get a resale purchase at the highest value, lowest cost resorts. Expect to hold for 2-3 years. Take out as much high value internal exchanges as you can in that time. Dump it before the fees start ramping before Marriott is sold out. Take advantage of the low rates when Marriott is subsidizing them.

The only thing we don't know is what the rules are. When we know the rules, it will be patently obvious how to outsmart the Marriott product managers. Why? Because they have no choice but to create simple rules. Those simple rules will not be a perfect market solution. In other words, supply and demand will not be matched by whatever point table they create. Whenever it is in our favor to own. Buy. Whenever it isn't, stay away.

As I said earlier, I don't care what Marriott launches. I will find a way to make it work simply by evaluating the rules they put into place and exploiting them. All others watch your wallets.

I could not say it any better.

I'm guessing that the real gems will be fixed week Platinum Plus on the resale market - I can't even guess if prices will go up or down.

Floating seasons will crumble if Marriott continues the assault on owners by submitting 200 reservations for a juicy week within the season at 8:00:0000001 AM CST. If that's the case then floating weeks, on the resale market, will become a party joke.
 

BocaBum99

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I could not say it any better.

I'm guessing that the real gems will be fixed week Platinum Plus on the resale market - I can't even guess if prices will go up or down.

Floating seasons will crumble if Marriott continues the assault on owners by submitting 200 reservations for a juicy week within the season at 8:00:0000001 AM CST. If that's the case then floating weeks, on the resale market, will become a party joke.

My guess is it will be at Platinum in the top resorts in Hawaii and Ski Resorts. Buy the platinums when ROFR is not being exercised. That's because when it Marriott starts exercising again, prices will rise.

If it is true that Marriott will target Platinum owners into the points system AND they will load up the points inventory with the unsold developer inventory, then those deals will be the best to own.... for now.

Buy when there is no ROFR, then profit when developer starts exercising again. For those of you who said that prices never rise after falling, bookmark this post. When it happens, I won't even need to say, "I told you, so." Someone else will do it for me.
 

timeos2

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Well said. No matter what they come up with...the TUGGERS will be able to manipulate it.

THAT is a fact Jack! It makes me wonder why so many are so worried about it. There is never a system that can't be played for best value. The fine folks here will be at the top of the list to find the value, they always are!

It is just another trade option - that is all it is ever going to be. The world will not end.
 

GregT

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My guess is it will be at Platinum in the top resorts in Hawaii and Ski Resorts. Buy the platinums when ROFR is not being exercised. That's because when it Marriott starts exercising again, prices will rise.


Boca, I agree completely with your logic here (above) -- but I'm a little confused by the 2-3 year horizon that you've mentioned.

I am thinking that the Platinum/high TDI's are something to own "in perpetuity", versus something to deposit into the points system. Are you suggesting that they be deposited to take advantage of Marriott's incentives and then the points be dumped before MFs get too high?

Best to all,

Greg
 

BocaBum99

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THAT is a fact Jack! It makes me wonder why so many are so worried about it. There is never a system that can't be played for best value. The fine folks here will be at the top of the list to find the value, they always are!

It is just another trade option - that is all it is ever going to be. The world will not end.

Those who are worried about it are trying to preserve their current investments. Their rightful place in line based on what they paid to get into the game. It's like buying a tech stock in Jan 2000 and deciding to in August 2010 to hold onto the stock until "it comes back."

The better move is to take a paper or real loss on your investment and value it for what it is rather than what you hope it will become. Then, buy, sell or hold based on the future of that product. Then, make a rational decision on the new product when it shows up. Buy, sell or hold based on a short term view of extracting 100% of your value as quickly as possible. Then, play with that ownership with the house's money. When they create the next product to obsolete this one, do it all again.
 

BocaBum99

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Boca, I agree completely with your logic here (above) -- but I'm a little confused by the 2-3 year horizon that you've mentioned.

I am thinking that the Platinum/high TDI's are something to own "in perpetuity", versus something to deposit into the points system. Are you suggesting that they be deposited to take advantage of Marriott's incentives and then the points be dumped before MFs get too high?

Best to all,

Greg

I recommend that people take a very short term view of timeshares. 1-3 years. Keep rotating your portfolio. That's because the developer is always depreciating the products. Always jump on the new product that is being subsidized by the Developer to make it appear to be cheaper than it is. When it isn't any longer, sell it and move to the next one. There is always a next one.
 

Dean

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While I'm sure Platinum will be the most desired for conversion from Marriott's standpoint, I'm not convinced it'll be the best to own for conversion from the members standpoint. The issue is what are you getting, what are you giving up and what will it cost you. My feeling is that the best things to convert will likely be the best things to trade, Gold at the better resorts and Platinum at the lessor demand resorts. You still might get more if converting Platinum but you're also giving up more, likely a lot more. But it does depend on specifics. Previously I was asked what it'd take for me to convert my Platinum HH weeks and that is essentially the question on a larger scale. Marriott has to decide the balance on income and participation to entice current owners to convert as well as the specifics of the plan. If they allow owners to essentially keep their weeks or trade in for MVCI points similar to Hyatt, I think they'll get a lot of people interested even with high demand weeks/resorts. If there is no home resort priority or even if there is but it's open to all owners at a given resort, it'd be tough for me to give up my top weeks. We'll see if/what happens, it should be fun. I have no doubt that I can make any plan work but that doesn't mean it'll work as well as what I have now, we don't know yet.
 

dougp26364

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I recommend that people take a very short term view of timeshares. 1-3 years. Keep rotating your portfolio. That's because the developer is always depreciating the products. Always jump on the new product that is being subsidized by the Developer to make it appear to be cheaper than it is. When it isn't any longer, sell it and move to the next one. There is always a next one.

This is assuming that you're not buying to own a particular resort. While it may be a good strategy for buying to exchange, I don't see that it would be profitable when buying for personal usage.

In our case, we've always purchased a timeshare because we believed one of two things. 1. We were going to use it and 2. we liked the system. Of course, over time usage may change.

We were just gettting ready to dump our Polo Towers timeshares and move onto something different in a different destination when DRI bought out Sunterra. Suddenly, with the advent of DRI's points based internal exchange system, what was old was new again. Granted $2,995 might not seem inexpensive to join I still calculated it as being less expensive, quicker and producing the same results I was after than selling and buying something new.

There is no fool proof method to timeshare ownership. As you've pointed out, it is important to understand the rules of the game, know which rules can change and that they WILL change, then take advantage of the contracts until you can no longer see a good return for your money and move on.

We're fortunate in that we are extremely pleased with the two Marriott resorts we own........so far. We purchased them to use and use them we have. I did purchase the particular unit type based on an expectation of possible future needs (proximity to Orlando, Florida Club membership and 3 bedroom unit) and, to some extent, trade potential (full 1 bedroom LO with the 3 bedroom Grand Chateau unit). So in our situation we do enjoy mixed usage with both personal and exchange usage.

Now comes Marriott with potentially a new product. It's going to be hard to say whether this product will benefit us or not. If it does, will it be affordable? It it's affordable, how will it benefit us? What will the rub be to added flexablity? These are all things no one can answer right now. Speculation is good but getting overly excited about it is like tilting and windmills.

Then there's the resale value that Perry is shouting about. All I can say is, with timeshare, what resale value? Marriott propped resale values up for years with ROFR. The economy collapsed, Marriott appears to have figured out a way around the expense of ROFR and things are going to change. I feel sorry for those that purchased contracts based on non-guarenteed benefits such as Marriott Rewards points but, I'll also point out they were foolish to believe the gravy train would go on forever. If you don't have it in writing, then it's going to change. Things like MR points will only continue so long as it's mutually beneficial to both parties. When it's no longer beneficial to Marriott, Marriott is going to take the offer off the table. The fact that anyone would be surprised or upset about making a decision based on their inability to examine what's in writing always amazes me.

The most important thing about timeshare, as far as I'm concerned, is to understand your contract and to work that contract to your advantage. Be ready for change. Change is inevitable. It will come sooner or later. The only thing you can do is prepare for it. Because change is inevitable, my stance has been, and remains, buy in a location and at a resort where you are happy to take vacations. In this way you'll always be happy.
 

billymach4

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I recommend that people take a very short term view of timeshares. 1-3 years. Keep rotating your portfolio. That's because the developer is always depreciating the products. Always jump on the new product that is being subsidized by the Developer to make it appear to be cheaper than it is. When it isn't any longer, sell it and move to the next one. There is always a next one.

Boca,

You can be my broker any day!
 

curbysplace

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Earlier this week I was told by a person in Marriott's hq that emails w/r/t the new program have started going out to some MVCI owners. That individual said there have been hundereds of emails intra company in all areas if the organization over the past few months--has to be a big thing for that. Later, told by my sales person this week that MVCI sales managers know the ins and outs of the new system but the sales force doesn't yet--until training to make sure the right, appropriate & legal things are said (or unsaid) as the case may be. The sales pitch this week is 'buy before the change to be a "legacy" owner'. As a legacy owner you will have all the options: do nothing and keep your deeded week continuing TS life as we know it now; or with the point system it appears as a developer-sold week owner you may be able to alternate back and forth on an annual basis between points or trade or go to your home resort an option that might not be availabe to resale buyers--he didn't elaborate as he didn't know. His further comment was that with 400,000 owners Marriott is not going to wreck its reputation on a bungled new system. So take it from there--it won't be long and we will all know everything! Then we will all begin to learn how to make the new system work best or see how well maintaining our current status works. We will have new threads as we progress through. Time will tell whether we end up seeing this change as an opportunity and not a problem.
 

PerryM

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Earlier this week I was told by a person in Marriott's hq that emails w/r/t the new program have started going out to some MVCI owners. That individual said there have been hundereds of emails intra company in all areas if the organization over the past few months--has to be a big thing for that. Later, told by my sales person this week that MVCI sales managers know the ins and outs of the new system but the sales force doesn't yet--until training to make sure the right, appropriate & legal things are said (or unsaid) as the case may be. The sales pitch this week is 'buy before the change to be a "legacy" owner'. As a legacy owner you will have all the options: do nothing and keep your deeded week continuing TS life as we know it now; or with the point system it appears as a developer-sold week owner you may be able to alternate back and forth on an annual basis between points or trade or go to your home resort an option that might not be availabe to resale buyers--he didn't elaborate as he didn't know. His further comment was that with 400,000 owners Marriott is not going to wreck its reputation on a bungled new system. So take it from there--it won't be long and we will all know everything! Then we will all begin to learn how to make the new system work best or see how well maintaining our current status works. We will have new threads as we progress through. Time will tell whether we end up seeing this change as an opportunity and not a problem.

Someone help me here - I can't think of the last developer "opportunity" I got....
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
For Those Opportunities, Thanks But No Thanks.

I can't think of the last developer "opportunity" I got.
Shux, those full-freight & big-bux timeshare sellers fall all over themselves offering the opportunity to buy a Lifetime Of Prepaid Vacations that you can use or rent out or sell or bequeath to your kids & grandkids -- all for less money that you'd be paying over ___[number]___ of years of just staying in dinky motel rooms where you get nothing but the 4 Bs (a Bed & a Bathroom & a Bible & a Bill).

Such a deal !

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 
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Fredm

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This ship has already sailed

Someone help me here - I can't think of the last developer "opportunity" I got....



The opportunity will be to opt-in if an owner by the end of June.
If you don't opt-in, nothing changes for you.
Reserve at your home resort, and trade with I.I., as always.

My guess:

If you do opt-in, you can participate based on the Marriott Rewards value assigned to your ownership interest. Also, based on the frequency of MR availability. Those that can convert to MR annually will be able to play with the new points annually (think Shadow Ridge Platinum). Most will be able to play every other year.

This ship has already sailed. It's too late to buy a resale that will close in time for legacy status.

The question of wanting to play is another issue.
 

Swice

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A suggestion

This threat is awfully long! ;)

Would the first person with the "real" information please start a new thread, "New system details" so that others don't have to wade through and get confused by the previous "speculation in this thread?"

:whoopie:
 

PerryM

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Doing nothing is NOT doing nothing...

The opportunity will be to opt-in if an owner by the end of June.
If you don't opt-in, nothing changes for you.
Reserve at your home resort, and trade with I.I., as always.

My guess:

If you do opt-in, you can participate based on the Marriott Rewards value assigned to your ownership interest. Also, based on the frequency of MR availability. Those that can convert to MR annually will be able to play with the new points annually (think Shadow Ridge Platinum). Most will be able to play every other year.

This ship has already sailed. It's too late to buy a resale that will close in time for legacy status.

The question of wanting to play is another issue.

Guys, guys, guys....

There will be all kinds of consequences no matter what owners do. I probably won't join the new kids club but here is what I'm expecting:

  • Lower resale prices - dropping instantly by the membership fee - and forever
  • Harder upgrade exchanges - probably won't exchange Gold for Maui Platinum anymore
  • Harder to make reservations - its me against the Marriott computer to snap up 4th of July week at Summit Watch

There are more but I'm going to be impacted negatively by NOT doing anything.
 
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MOXJO7282

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Floating seasons will crumble if Marriott continues the assault on owners by submitting 200 reservations for a juicy week within the season at 8:00:0000001 AM CST. If that's the case then floating weeks, on the resale market, will become a party joke.

This is no different than it is now with floating weeks. Sales people sell the dream now by telling clients to buy Florida and trade into Maui, creating 1000s of trade requests.

I'll argue that less people may go for the prime week because its easy to calculate a cost of points, and it can be seen that you have to pay using 2 years worth of points to get to Maui, as opposed to a float week where it doesn't cost more to try. If I can clearly see its going to cost more in the form of increased points I can do the math and say it doesn't pay. With a owned float week, the owner says, hey no harm no foul, let's put in the request. To me the float model creates more demand for popular weeks because decisions in a points program will be made on cost not just a dream to buy low and trade high.
 

kjd

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All this talk and anguish about a new internal trading system beginning June 1st? We're getting close to the magic date and there's no sign of it. "Informed insiders" who put out this rumor are silent while the rest of us speculate about what's behind the curtain. Fifty-five pages and over 1,300 posts all about nothing. Is this a joke?

The rumor could quite possibly be true. I will believe it when and if it happens but find the entire discussion, when nothing is being presented by Marriott, rather inane. Marriott recently renewed their agreement with Interval International. It would seem that action would be in conflict with Marriott offering an internal trading system of their own.

That fact doesn't seem to bother the speculators. Right now no one seems to know much about anything including me.
 

PerryM

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This is no different than it is now with floating weeks. Sales people sell the dream now by telling clients to buy Florida and trade into Maui, creating 1000s of trade requests.

I'll argue that less people may go for the prime week because its easy to calculate a cost of points, and it can be seen that you have to pay using 2 years worth of points to get to Maui, as opposed to a float week where it doesn't cost more to try. If I can clearly see its going to cost more in the form of increased points I can do the math and say it doesn't pay. With a owned float week, the owner says, hey no harm no foul, let's put in the request. To me the float model creates more demand for popular weeks because decisions in a points program will be made on cost not just a dream to buy low and trade high.

Big, huge, humongous, (and something even bigger than that) difference:

NOW Marriott must have something in inventory to sell - want 4th of July in Maui and they MUST have a Platinum Maui week in inventory.

In June, Marriott doesn't need to have ANY Platinum Maui weeks to sell in order to sell them! They will be selling Silver Branson weeks if they want.


All this talk and anguish about a new internal trading system beginning June 1st? We're getting close to the magic date and there's no sign of it. "Informed insiders" who put out this rumor are silent while the rest of us speculate about what's behind the curtain. Fifty-five pages and over 1,300 posts all about nothing. Is this a joke?

The rumor could quite possibly be true. I will believe it when and if it happens but find the entire discussion, when nothing is being presented by Marriott, rather inane. Marriott recently renewed their agreement with Interval International. It would seem that action would be in conflict with Marriott offering an internal trading system of their own.

That fact doesn't seem to bother the speculators. Right now no one seems to know much about anything including me.


Gee; Lost ended, and then 24 ended but I knew the drama would continue here at Tug. That's the only thing keeping me going this spring...

Guys, it's called a chat-room for a reason....
 
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dougp26364

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Big, huge, humongous, (and something even bigger than that) difference:

NOW Marriott must have something in inventory to sell - want 4th of July in Maui and they MUST have a Platinum Maui week in inventory.

In June, Marriott doesn't need to have ANY Platinum Maui weeks to sell.

This is both true and false. Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell. The difference is that all the inventory is converted to points and points are points. It doesn't matter if the points are in Branson or if the points are in Maui. If it's a trust, deed location no longer matters to either the buyer or the seller. All that matters to the buyer is that they have enough points to reserve the unit they want and that the unit they want is available.

I'll give you an example. I own 7,000 points with Hilton. Those points are actually deeded in Las Vegas. If I want a NYE Hawaii Penthouse unit. all that is required of me is to have enough points available to reserve that unit AND that unit be available to reserve.

DRI's trust makes it even easier. If you own trust points, you have no deed. All that's required is enough points to reserve the unit you desire. You can own the points outright or, you can save from one year and borrow from the next. All you need are the points. DRI doesn't even sell a particular resort. They sell points in packages of 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 or more depending on your needs. No deeds, no worries, just points.
 

davidvel

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I probably won't join the new kids club but here is what I'm expecting:
  • Harder to make reservations - its me against the Marriott computer to snap up 4th of July week at Summit Watch
If Marriott uses its computers to snap up weeks for its system, and everyone else has to do it manually, there will be plenty of happy plaintiff lawyers. I'll be lead counsel.
 

PerryM

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That subtle little difference...

This is both true and false. Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell. The difference is that all the inventory is converted to points and points are points. It doesn't matter if the points are in Branson or if the points are in Maui. If it's a trust, deed location no longer matters to either the buyer or the seller. All that matters to the buyer is that they have enough points to reserve the unit they want and that the unit they want is available.

I'll give you an example. I own 7,000 points with Hilton. Those points are actually deeded in Las Vegas. If I want a NYE Hawaii Penthouse unit. all that is required of me is to have enough points available to reserve that unit AND that unit be available to reserve.

DRI's trust makes it even easier. If you own trust points, you have no deed. All that's required is enough points to reserve the unit you desire. You can own the points outright or, you can save from one year and borrow from the next. All you need are the points. DRI doesn't even sell a particular resort. They sell points in packages of 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 or more depending on your needs. No deeds, no worries, just points.

I suggest another word:

Original: Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell.

Perry's: Marriott still has to have ANY inventory to sell.
 

PerryM

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Scrimshaw alert....

If Marriott uses its computers to snap up weeks for its system, and everyone else has to do it manually, there will be plenty of happy plaintiff lawyers. I'll be lead counsel.

OK, how about 200 folks from Bangladesh - mouse fingers at the ready just waiting for the elephant to sound the alarm cry at 8:00:00 AM CST.

We don't stand a chance....
 
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Dean

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Big, huge, humongous, (and something even bigger than that) difference:

NOW Marriott must have something in inventory to sell - want 4th of July in Maui and they MUST have a Platinum Maui week in inventory.

In June, Marriott doesn't need to have ANY Platinum Maui weeks to sell in order to sell them! They will be selling Silver Branson weeks if they want...
As I pointed out, this is the very nature of points systems, subject to the specific rules and any limitations such as home resort priority, etc. In effect I read this as you are inherently against a deverloper selling a points system in any way because there is ALWAYS an element of the bronze point being bought to use at the Platinum time. I realize your additional contention is this is a change midstream. I look at it as if Marriott were cutting off the MVCI and starting a new system that was unrelated, something also well within their rights.
 

dougp26364

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Location
Kansas
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grand Chateau
Marriott Shadow Ridge
Marriott Ocean Pointe
Marriott Destination Club Points
Hilton Grand Vacation Club Las Vegas Blvd
Grand Colorado on Peak 8
Spinnaker French Quarter Resort Branson
I suggest another word:

Original: Marriott still has to have the inventory to sell.

Perry's: Marriott still has to have ANY inventory to sell.

But, there still has to be enough points/inventory. Marriott can NOT just sell points without the inventory available to back it up.

Now, you're right in that they'll be selling points in Branson with the idea that you can use those points to stay anywhere/anytime with one rule. You must have the points available to accomplish the vacations you plan.

Selling timeshares has always been about selling dreams. It doesn't matter if they're selling you into a weeks program with the promise you can exchange your week for ANY week in the system or with Interval or, if they're selling you points that you can use to purchase your vacation within the system or through Interval. It's all the same and, like it or not, it's still going to be sold the same. That is the dream of the ideal vacations for life. Points/weeks makes not difference.

Points will do a couple of things.
1. Makes exchanging more transparent. You KNOW what's required rather than guessing if you have the exchange power.
2. Eliminates selling specific deeded weeks and specific seasons. You just sell points packages and people buy only what they need.

It has advantages for both buyer and seller.
 
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Bill4728

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Please remember the big down side of point based TS systems. Developers will often try to get a sale by selling a person the smallest point package ( therefore the cheapest) that the developer sells. So the person buying it is almost guaranteed to be disappointed with their purchase.

Therefore my rule on buying point based TS systems: Be sure you buy enough pts to get the vacation you want. DO NOT UNDERBUY in a pt based TS system.
 
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