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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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jcjl1

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Kauai Lagoons Sales Presentation

Attended a sales presentation on Wednesday and of course, there was little that would be said of the new program. The only facts confirmed:

1. All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program
2. No more EOY
3. Current developer bought will be able to get in


Anything else, they sheepishly would not comment on.
 

puckmanfl

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good afternoon

Let me make sure I have this correct!!! A sales rep tries to get you to fork over $50K for a Lagoons week. Then he/she tells you that in 3 weeks the rules change and we can't tell you much about it!!! Yikes... Sounds like they should just stop the tours now!!! I feel for the sales force as this has got to be extremely awkward and un-fun for them!!!
 
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PerryM

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Mother Marriott

And since all we have right now is rampent speculation, who says that Marriott isn't going to do something similar? It's those that have been whipping everyone into a frenzy about how owners are going to be screwed without even knowing the details.

Until proven otherwise, I prefer to have a positive outlook on any new system. The weeks system is outdated. Marriott will have to change and adapt to keep up or all the other systems out there will begin to look better to buyers. Starwood, Hilton and Disney have converted to points long ago. So many have moved to points that's remaining in a weeks based system almost doesn't make any sense. It's been a long time coming for Marriott to convert. They haven't converted yet but there's enough out there for us to believe they're about to. The only thing that makes anyone worry is the fear of the unknown. There is no reason to fear the unknown. It's like being afraid of the dark.

Kind of like Wall St reform, health care reform, off shore drilling reform - just sit back and Mother will take care of this for us.

Me, I take a skeptical outlook and assume I'm going to get screwed......
 

PerryM

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Am I a grandfather or not?

Attended a sales presentation on Wednesday and of course, there was little that would be said of the new program. The only facts confirmed:

1. All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program
2. No more EOY
3. Current developer bought will be able to get in


Anything else, they sheepishly would not comment on.

All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program

  • Which year?
  • On 6/16 "Marriott weeks" is a thing of the past - like 60% resale to developer pricing - what will resales be quoted in? Weeks or Points which can't be sold or bought resale?


No more EOY
  • Can't "bank" Points to next year?
  • EOY folks take a hike with the new system?
  • EOY resale - what happens to you?

Current developer bought will be able to get in
  • What's current? Starting 6/17/10?
  • Existing Resale weeks - are they current on 6/15/10?
  • My resale Gold week has no home anymore?
  • Am I a grandfather on that day? Will I be able to join if I wanted to?

Like with most rumors they just embellish themselves each cycle and are harder to understand.
 
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jcjl1

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Kauai Lagoons Presentation

Most tour couples do not know the currnt system and all are being sold the current system. Since we are TUGers, we know that something is afoot and this differentiates us from the rest of the crowd. Yes, it was uncomfortable for the sales rep but how many TUGers are coming through each day? Not many I presume. Just her unfortunate luck.

Lagoons is being sold right now as real estate with a deed. 6/16 and beyond it will be as points as will all properties.

PS - Lagoons current inventory is 65% sold out, offers the "Founders Club" benefit of 2 rounds of golf per day for a week for the first 10 years. I was shown a sales directive stating that it was going away with the 6/16 date and would not be extended under any circumstances.

Just thought everyone should hear the current line. Don't shoot the messenger!
 

BocaBum99

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Most tour couples do not know the currnt system and all are being sold the current system. Since we are TUGers, we know that something is afoot and this differentiates us from the rest of the crowd. Yes, it was uncomfortable for the sales rep but how many TUGers are coming through each day? Not many I presume. Just her unfortunate luck.

Lagoons is being sold right now as real estate with a deed. 6/16 and beyond it will be as points as will all properties.

PS - Lagoons current inventory is 65% sold out, offers the "Founders Club" benefit of 2 rounds of golf per day for a week for the first 10 years. I was shown a sales directive stating that it was going away with the 6/16 date and would not be extended under any circumstances.

Just thought everyone should hear the current line. Don't shoot the messenger!

Most tours are owner updates. So, tours definitely know about the current system.
 

PerryM

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Call for Mr Rumor...

Most tour couples do not know the currnt system and all are being sold the current system. Since we are TUGers, we know that something is afoot and this differentiates us from the rest of the crowd. Yes, it was uncomfortable for the sales rep but how many TUGers are coming through each day? Not many I presume. Just her unfortunate luck.

Lagoons is being sold right now as real estate with a deed. 6/16 and beyond it will be as points as will all properties.

PS - Lagoons current inventory is 65% sold out, offers the "Founders Club" benefit of 2 rounds of golf per day for a week for the first 10 years. I was shown a sales directive stating that it was going away with the 6/16 date and would not be extended under any circumstances.

Just thought everyone should hear the current line. Don't shoot the messenger!

Nothing I said was directed at you - sorry if that was the impression.

I was addressing Mr Rumor....
 
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Mamianka

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Attended a sales presentation on Wednesday and of course, there was little that would be said of the new program. The only facts confirmed:

1. All sales beginning 6/16 will be in the new program
2. No more EOY
3. Current developer bought will be able to get in


Anything else, they sheepishly would not comment on.

We attended a similar presentation at MGC this past Monday. Told same thing - they will be *closed for retraining* that week. There will be no more EOY for sale by Marriott, except for any resales that they are handling for owners who turned them in for Marriott to sell. Again, no particulars on the program content and proposed changes. There MUST be some kind of window of grace period in which owners can get their ducks in a row - there is no steel wall that closes on 6/16. I would think. Not overly concerned about this - have to wait and see before I get my undies in a bunch. I know that there are some real hardcore Marriott owners, but this is hardly all that we do - had a full life before, and could live without this if need be. I a few weeks, we'll know more.

Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there. Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them. II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do. We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.
 
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billymach4

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Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there. Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them. II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do. We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.

That is a pretty big bold "oops" statement. If the salestrash told you this then it is untrue.
 

dualrated2

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Also told about Interval

That is a pretty big bold "oops" statement. If the salestrash told you this then it is untrue.

I was told the same thing last week at Shadow Ridge.
 

Corky

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Is it a positive that Marriott is leaving II???? Loved those getaways. Where will we find deals like that in the future?

What happens to the special Marriott owner phone line?
 

davidvel

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OK, how about 200 folks from Bangladesh - mouse fingers at the ready just waiting for the elephant to sound the alarm cry at 8:00:00 AM CST.

We don't stand a chance....

Same as my prior comment. Slam dunk.
 

billymach4

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Marriott can getaway from the II "getaways" not a problem.

But if they pull the rug out from under the II privileges then they will instantly devalue all of the owner weeks out there. I say this because the owner base will be so infuriated and dump their weeks on the open market.

The value of Marriott TS's will plummet to nearly $1 ebay price. Marriott is not stupid.

The one exception being if they extend the same privileges to ALL current owners in their "so called rumored internal/ points system".

Marriott is not going to remove our interval priority.
 
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PerryM

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SNAP goes the weasel...

We attended a similar presentation at MGC this past Monday. Told same thing - they will be *closed for retraining* that week. There will be no more EOY for sale by Marriott, except for any resales that they are handling for owners who turned them in for Marriott to sell. Again, no particulars on the program content and proposed changes. There MUST be some kind of window of grace period in which owners can get their ducks in a row - there is no steel wall that closes on 6/16. I would think. Not overly concerned about this - have to wait and see before I get my undies in a bunch. I know that there are some real hardcore Marriott owners, but this is hardly all that we do - had a full life before, and could live without this if need be. I a few weeks, we'll know more.

Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there. Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them. II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do. We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.

Marriott just resigned with II just a month or so ago. The sales weasel got his tail caught in the truth trap.

Marriott can't go 100% internal - folks will want to convert Points to II exchanges and the other way must be open too. II folks will be exchanging into the new exchange system in Marriott.

So how much more of the rumor is bogus - 2 weeks will reveal the answers.

P.S.

Does the 24-day, Marriott only II exchange window die on 6/16/10?

If so there should be a moment of silence at 8:00 AM CST that morning....

Then there is the sticky problem of what will a Marriott week be worth in terms of II trading power? Marriott will turn over a basket of reservations that are Platinum down to Bronze and a generic Marriott week will represent ALL Marriott units - thus lower quality and trading power.

II will probably treat those of us who can lock in a juicy week and turn that over much higher than those Point owners who turn over a mutt. So II hopefully will create 2 types of Marriott exchanges - Points and weeks. If they don't then we, that don't join, will get screwed.

That's my guess.
 
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taffy19

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All I can say in reply is the DRI has no less than three different systems in play at the same time. Trust based owners, who can reserve a unit in their particular trust at 13 months, deeded owners converted to points who can reserve their home resort at 12 months and deeded weeks based owners who can reserve their units at 12 months. All inventory is kept seperate and no one has an issue getting a week/view at their home resort as far as I've been able to tell. As a deeded owner in the points program, I have had no problems and, it's been easier than exchanging in Marriott's current system. It's been MUCH easier.

The problem owners at the small resort may be having is that it's a small resort and you're dealing with RCI points, not an internal systems points. Marriott has 50 resorts with a couple of new ones opening soon. Inventory should not be an issue with Marriott. I am a little nervous about the first couple of years and being able to see inventory in all 50 Marriott resorts but, I'll have to wait to see what the plan looks like and how Marriott has addressed whatever concerns I might have.
That sounds like a complicated system with three complete different inventories. A good computer program should be able to handle that even with the constant changes because people are converting most likely daily from here on.

I still don't like to see that the deeded owners, who don't want to convert, have a later date to make reservations. None of us expected the program to change one day but they can make these changes with a floating time system as several have done so already. Let's hope that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages so the new system may end up being better.

I remember reading that there was a big problem once with someone who owns an oceanfront unit at one of your resorts but didn't get it. Were they rented out by the resort? They have no right to do that. I realize that your resort changed names and ownership several times so that may have added to the confusion.

We don't have that problem with the Marriott but will they give point owners a head start with the best weeks and views? That would make many week owners, who do not want to switch, very unhappy. You almost have no choice then but to make the switch. I am only speculating as nobody knows yet what will happen.
 
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Dean

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Oops - forgot to say that Marriott is leaving II, and there will be no more Marriott Getaways posted there. Too bad - there were some nice deals if you could grab them. II will be left with not a whole lot of quality when Marriott goes - as the salespeople said, a lot of Marriott owners do most of their trading into other Marriotts anyway - we sure do. We don't anticipate staying in II - everything they offer, we can get someplace else, better and cheaper.
Sounds like sales lies though there may be a bit of truth there. While I don't believe that the value of what current owners have means anything to MVCI, nor that it should, I don't see how Marriott owners would lose access to II, those resorts who had access to RCI before still do. But they could take away the reduced fees and 24 day priority. Getaways are simply a way to rent weeks so I don't see this issue as having any meaning in this discussion.
 

m61376

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Sounds like sales lies though there may be a bit of truth there. While I don't believe that the value of what current owners have means anything to MVCI, nor that it should, I don't see how Marriott owners would lose access to II, those resorts who had access to RCI before still do. But they could take away the reduced fees and 24 day priority. Getaways are simply a way to rent weeks so I don't see this issue as having any meaning in this discussion.

First of all, if Marriott was going to sever relations with II they would not have just signed a long term agreement. Even Starwood, who has had a long standing points internal exchange system, has a long-term relationship with II, owners use II for some internal and all external exchanges, and there are Starwood Getaways; I would expect Marriott to continue to similarly use II as a venue for renting excess weeks as Getaways and a means of enticing other timeshare owners to visit their properties (Getaways are also a means to get people to visit and hopefully provide fodder for tours).

I don't agree that the value of what current owners have means nothing to Marriott and that it shouldn't mean anything; while Marirott of course wants to enhance its bottom line, a loyal customer base is the foundation of any business. Maintaining current owner value is essential to Marriott's future; new projects are fueled primarily by current owner purchases, especially in pre-construction phases and, certainly, by word of mouth. IF Marriott was to turn its back on its loyal customers (and I don't believe it will), then Perry's prognostication of it circling the drain would become a reality.

As for continued affiliation with II, Marirott is well aware that their contemplated system will not appeal to everyone (that was clear from Fletch's posts), and they have precedence with that in their Asia Pacific program. They also want to be able to sell their weeks as having access to thousands of properties world-wide, not just fifty something resorts. So II exchanges are mutually beneficial. If there are any fees to join and/or if there is a loss of home resort priority with any new system, there will likely be many people who continue business as usual, and there will likely remain considerable Marriott inventory in II, at least in the short term. IF over time Marriott's internal trading program catches on, then inventory in II will likely proportionally decrease, but the value of deeded weeks owned, reserved and deposited (as per current ownership contracts) in II may actually be enhanced because of more limited inventory, although the options for Marriott to Marriott trades will be impacted.

IF Marriott's new system is purely a points system with loss of home resort priority, as Fletch and others have indicated, then ultimately we will all have to weigh whether the ability to reserve what we now own is outweighed by the possible easier ability to reserve within the Marriott system and the increased flexibility. Personally, I'd like the best of all worlds- I want to keep my home resort priority, I'd like to directly book other Marriotts with the ability to use a form of currency (ie- points) to have control of view, and I like the concept of having control over length of stay (although a week is fine with me so that's not a big issue) and size of unit (it would be nice to be able to book a 3BR for some trips and a smaller unit for others). Since I bought primarily to use, I would not be willing to give up my home resort priority and I would really resent being forced to shell out anything substantial, especially in this economy, to join any new system. The last two biggies for me are MF's (although if home resort priority was maintained that would infer that it was not purely a points trust system, and the current MF system would remain intact) and, the bottom line, how value is assigned.

I know others disagree, but I still maintain that point assignment must be a reflection of real market demand, and not an arbitrary assignment of a number to increase sales. If I own a Grande Vista week, for example, and it is going to cost me double the value of my week to book a winter Caribbean week, then I want to be able to justify that trade. The bottom line- if I could go to Marriott's website and that Grande Vista week is $239 per night for a 2BR villa for week 5 and $855 for the same week in Aruba, then spending additional points makes sense (although if I was the Grande Vista owner I might decide that I prefer the week for week trading through II). However, if I can look at Marriott's website and find that a mid-August week in Aruba is $585 a night and the same size unit it $394 a night at Marco for the same time period, then I wouldn't expect an exchange into Marco to be costing more points than the Aruba unit is allotted; Marriott should not be artificially inflating point values as a sales tool. If I am going to give up my week, I want to be able to get equivalent value (after all, isn't that what, at least on paper, points systems offer- flexibility and being a more equitable system), and that value must have some form of real market objective determination.

That said, I can understand that many people bought into the system with the concept of Platinum for Platinum or high demand Gold for perhaps lower demand Platinum, etc., so I could embrace a system like HGVC's, etc., where most resorts are valued similarly. I can see the concept of equity there too on a broad scale basis.

I think owners will be looking at not only how many points they are getting, but how the points are distributed and if they truly reflect value (and value is really a reflection of market demand, which Marriott's rental rates already reflect) or if, alternately, Marriott decides to value similar seasons similarly across the board (which, to a large degree, is how the product was sold for the last 25 years); for me, I can see equity in either of these scenarios. I cannot see equity in some arbitrary assignment, either now or in the future, of enhanced valuations as a sales tool (ex.- inflating Marco's point allotment to sell units).

History, btw, has a tendency to repeat itself. Starwood did that with inflated values for Lagumar, for ex.. They created a system wherefew deposited high value weeks. Although they later reallocated point assignments to WSJ, very few St. John's weeks ever get deposited because owners will rent them out first. Very few prime weeks are available for non WSJ owners to reserve even internally because the point allocations make it such that owners feel they get gypped if they book anywhere else because they simply don't get enough points allocated. Harborside is another property with similar issues. So Marriott has to be careful that older, but premium properties, don't get out-priced by newer properties simply because they are newer, but might never achieve the same status of some older properties simply because in vacations, like real estate, it is location, location, location.
 

Clark

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When we attended a sales presentation at SurfWatch in April, the sales person commented that Marriott would stop placing inventory with Interval in June.
 

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I'm a long time lurker who has learned a lot by reading all your posts. We own a gold OF Barony Beach week and a gold OF Surf Club week. I've been following this thread since it started and am now more confused than ever. We used an accommodation certificate to snag a last minute week at OceanWatch in Myrtle Beach. We agreed to attend a timeshare presentation last Monday. When asked about the new point system, our sales rep insisted she had heard nothing about any such thing. After her manager or whoever he was came in to question us about how she did.........and to warn us that the wonderful deal they were offering us (20% off the price) would expire after we walked out.......he also denied knowing anything about a new points system. But he did assure us that IF such a thing were to happen.......we, as Marriott owners, would be the first to know about any new "enhancements." After reading about what other sales reps have been revealing to potential customers........the whole presentation seemed quite bizarre to say the least. This presentation was exactly like every other one we've ever attended where they describe all the wonderful vacations you can take with Marriott rewards points.......only this time they were talking about the 5 night vacation packages instead of the 7 day ones.
 

PerryM

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In a nutshell...

Marriott is faced with a dilemma on 6/16/10:

A 2BR Gold Summit Watch sells for $20,000 and the average Gold SW week rents for $1,000 - how do you make a Point system that handles BOTH buying Points and then using those Points for rental rates?

The fly in this ointment is the resale rate of just $6,500 to buy that same week - how does that fit in?

How Marriott will address these complex problems is what ALL these conversations is all about...

P.S.

Geez what was I thinking - do the above and allow owners not to join and keep that system going with II on top of everything.
 
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Dean

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First of all, if Marriott was going to sever relations with II they would not have just signed a long term agreement.
I'm not sure if you just chose my post to use as a point of reference or that you misread what I wrote. My point was that the members who owned at existing Marriott resorts (and likely future resorts) would likely retain access to II though it's possible that some of the workings of the current internal exchange program would be altered or eliminated going forward. My view would be looking over the next 5-10 years, not 1-2 though. On that is seems we agree.

As for how much Marriott cares about you and I, it really depends on what issue we're talking. We likely disagree a lot less than you might think, but I don't think Marriott is going to worry one bit about members complaining about resale prices or what they say on places like TUG. They will care about the issues that will keep them from buying new weeks or into a new system.
 

dougp26364

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When we attended a sales presentation at SurfWatch in April, the sales person commented that Marriott would stop placing inventory with Interval in June.

Here's what I think happend. The salesman heard that Marriott was going to a points based exchange system through the grapevine. They assumed, since RCI has RCI points, that Marriott was dumping I.I. and going to RCI because Interval doesn't have a points based exchange system. They were wrong. The problem with sales people, and this thread for that matter, is they get bits and pieces and then let their imaginations run wild. As mentioned above, Marriott just signed a long term contract with Interval. They wouldn't have done that if they were moving to RCI.

I was once told by a salesman that Marriott owned RCI. Even when I got the Interval book out that he had and showed him all the Marriott resort in it and the lack of Marriott resorts in RCI, he still stood on his statement that Marriott owned RCI as a solid fact.

Generally speaking, most salesmen only know how to sell. Many don't own the product, don't use the prodcut and don't have a clue about the product past what their sales managers tell them to say. Needless to say, they get some wild rumors going on their own when they make assumptions and then believe them to be facts.
 
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dougp26364

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I'm a long time lurker who has learned a lot by reading all your posts. We own a gold OF Barony Beach week and a gold OF Surf Club week. I've been following this thread since it started and am now more confused than ever. We used an accommodation certificate to snag a last minute week at OceanWatch in Myrtle Beach. We agreed to attend a timeshare presentation last Monday. When asked about the new point system, our sales rep insisted she had heard nothing about any such thing. After her manager or whoever he was came in to question us about how she did.........and to warn us that the wonderful deal they were offering us (20% off the price) would expire after we walked out.......he also denied knowing anything about a new points system. But he did assure us that IF such a thing were to happen.......we, as Marriott owners, would be the first to know about any new "enhancements." After reading about what other sales reps have been revealing to potential customers........the whole presentation seemed quite bizarre to say the least. This presentation was exactly like every other one we've ever attended where they describe all the wonderful vacations you can take with Marriott rewards points.......only this time they were talking about the 5 night vacation packages instead of the 7 day ones.

You can take it one of two ways.

1. Nothing is going to happen and we've all allowed our imaginations to run wild or

2. They're toeing the company line and keeping their mouths such, which is something ALL Marriott sales persons should be doing on this subject.

A couple of years ago I'd have been standing on #1, that it was just a rumor and nothing was going to happen. The thing is, there's been to much chatter, we have a couple of people who post here who have a few contacts higher up with Marriott and, the timeshare world has changed to a points driven internal exchange system and Marriott is almost the last major developer standing who doesn't have such a product. I believe something is going to happen and, I believe it's more likely to be sooner than later. I dread the thought that June and July will come and go without any announcements by Marriott. If nothing has happened by July, then I'll be back to #1, that it's just a rumor, and that nothing is ever going to change. Actually, either way is fine by me right now.
 

Asia2000

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Just some opinionated thoughts here. After all, if we had all of the facts, this thread would not be very much fun.

If people know all of their options in the timeshare world, very few people would even consider a retail priced (from Marriott) timeshare point program versus a resale deeded week. The gauge on how soon the points program will effect deeded week owners will be based on how many deeded week owners convert to points. The question is how much money will Marriott charge deeded week owners? In Asia it was $5,000 and from the looks of things, very few people converted. One, because $5,000 is too much. Two, because the point system in Asia did not really give you anything better other than a low entry price on points and the hotel "Club Connections" (I think many of the people that converted, added points at the low price - Marriott gave up to one year at the initial offering price once your deeded week was converted).

My whole purpose in acquiring a timeshare was to get away from hotel rooms. With children, we want the extra bedroom and the ability to cook so we do not have to pay $20-$30 a head for breakfast. Club Connections and Marriott Reward points will not sway very many people. I think the only way to make people go for the points is to give them something big that their regular deeded week cannot give them. The only thing that comes to mind is "priority". People want assurance that they will be first in line. I don't think it will come to what Perry talked about, but I do think it will move in that direction (not having an effect on most people but may start to creep in over time).

Marriott cannot sell point program timeshares for weeks of inventory they do not have. They can fill up the system, but they cannot overfill it as people will not be able to use their programs (gridlock). A deeded week is exactly that. They will either have to change/adjust/add the rules (as far as who gets priority - Points or Deeds) or build/add more resorts. I think they will do both. Point owners will have an edge on priority in the long term (concerning trades - not home resort weeks). Marriott will also add more resorts (your tier II properties/resorts that are not part of MVCI right now) and also some of their Tier I hotels NYC Marquis, Miami South Beach, etc. (prime properties in locations where MVCI does not currently exist).

Making a point program is not enough to get anyone excited about buying into the program. They need to add some things and make it enticing for deeded week owners to convert. Smoke and mirrors will result in a failed program when dealing with the well educated timeshare owners of the Western world.

I guess we will find out for sure in a few weeks.
 
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