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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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puckmanfl

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Hi...

If my GV is going to get me 40% better trading power than Koolina I will put that into points immediately and KEEP the KOOLINA for usage and II exchanges. There is no possible way my 3 bedroom GV has 40% better trading power than KOOLINA.

I believe that MVCI inversely used MR value to stimulate developer sales at more difficult to sell places. Hawaii and the ski weeks (also 85K points) sell themselves. MR points are not a reliable indicator of value or trading power...
 

Dean

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Dean...

Please help me out and explain to me why you would even remotely consider converting your "top shelf" HHI summer weeks!!!

If you plan to occupy, there is no reason to change. If you plan "like-like" exchanges, this system may add a little flexibility but will add so many more "players" that can snag these units that availability must inevitably decrease. I do believe that flexibility in "downtrading" will be dramatically increased. The good news is that a summer HHI week or Hawaii week might generate 10-14 days in Ocean Pointe/ Marco off season and that 3-4 day getaways in these off seasons will be plentiful. Visiting resorts off season within driving distance for 3-4 getaways will definitely be a plus...

I do forsee II "fighting back" and coming up with incentives to get MVCI weeks in their system!!! Perhaps increased availability of AC's and other perks!!!

I just need someone to convince me to participate. All I have really heard is that there is some increased flexibility and "ALL the other TS companies do it" so it must be good...
Obviously the specifics will determine any decisions. As to what could convince me to convert all of my weeks including the Platinum Grande Ocean and Surfwatch Platinum weeks, here are a few possibilities. If they gave me the right to use my week or get points as I believe Hyatt does or if there were a VIP level such that the benefits gave me enough priority are 2 possibilities. I'm sure there are others. I do agree that it's not very likely any new system will offer enough to get those weeks but it's possible.

Dean- While I agree with much of what you say, there are a few things I'd like to comment on. First, the inventory should and I think legally can only be separated according to ownership in the respective systems. In order to make systems equitable the reservations for every unit type and every reservation day should reflect the portion of ownership- so that if there are 25% point owners, then a quarter of the reservations should go to that group for each unit type and reservation day. Logistically, I am sure this will create a bit of a nightmare, and be especially hard for smaller resorts and more limited villa types (at many resorts there may be 20 OF or 3BR villas, spread out over 3,4 or 5 arrival dates each week).

Secondly, to address what I quoted above. I hope Marriott doesn't lose sight of the fact that the more successful points based systems, which most here tout as DVC and HGVC, either don't differentiate or make minimal distinction between how owners acquired their weeks. Not surprisingly, resale values are higher and so is owner satisfaction.

Even Starwood's program, which does distinguish buyers at many of their properties, has had any distinction built in from the onset; that is, at the point of purchase every buyer was aware of their rights and limitations, if any. I have said it before and I will reiterate it- it is one thing for Marriott to enact a new system that creates a distinction between future purchasers and a very different thing to create sub-classes of current owners. The only delineation which I would consider equitable would be to enhance the current distinction- that is, make the transfer of points to the Rewards Program the selling point it once was. That would increase value for current retail owners and would maintain what should currently be the real distinction, but has morphed into a program of limited value to many.

That said, while I would not like it I do not feel it would be unfair for them to create a larger distinction for future purchasers, since people will have the option to buy or not buy as they see fit. However, I do think they should look long and hard at how the voluntary program has decimated the value of many of the Starwood properties and the high rate of owner dissatisfaction and default. Marriott has the power to make the distinction between retail and resale something of real value without being punitive, simply by enhancing the reward point trade value.

Ten to fifteen years ago, when many of these values were set, MF's were considerably less, up front costs were considerably less, and the point cost for travel packages was a whole lot less. Many of those up front incentives practically paid the difference in purchase price. Today, prices of units are much higher, MF's doubled in some cases, travel packages require a lot more points and the only thing that has remained stagnant is the redemption value of the weeks. Even values assigned for current purchases don't reflect the full increases on the redemption side. In reality, since the trade value doesn't change but every other parameter increases, the value of this perk has decreased commensurate to the other increases. A fairer exchange value would be easy to implement, and building in a cost of living factor would help keep the program relevant ten years down the road. Marriott could easily take a positive approach to enhancing developer sales by making it truly a seamless program with owner access to the hundreds of hotels worldwide, with owners getting really good value for their money. After all, Marriott gets a nice timeshare to rent out for thousands of dollars for the week, so shouldn't owners be able to book equivalent accommodation value when trading? THAT would be a win-win program and something that might entice many, even resale owners, to participate in. Then we'd truly be buying pre-paid vacations world-wide- and, after all, isn't that what they are selling?
I think there are several ways they could legally separate the inventory. They could do it by the week on the deed or by the % of owners that have converted within a given Marriott season. I think the latter is more likely but that assumes they retain the same seasons for the affected resorts in any new system as they have now.
 

Dean

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Here are the Pros to Marriott:
  • No worries about selling doggy weeks - sell Points to access owners' reservations
  • Resales crumble since Marriott sells Points and resales sell weeks - no compatibility and thus 5 cents on the dollar resales
  • Exercise ROFR at the 5% level and recycle weeks to Points
  • 400,000 owners with 2 weeks each, lest's say 1,000,000 weeks, times $2,500 per week is a goal of $2.5 Billion goal for this project

Here are the Cons to Marriott:
  • Huge learning curve to explain to 400,000 owners
  • Owners balking at paying the membership fee
  • Ticked off owners with 2 reservation pools
  • Ticked off owners realizing that there are many shades to Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, and Platinum Plus
  • Lawsuits that could challenge the very existence of the new system
  • Wrong timing resulting in poor conversion and poor acceptance for new owners

For the 400,000 owners:
  • Will the new system help or hurt our Marriotts now and 10 years from now?
  • Will the resale market be impacted by the incompatibility of Points versus weeks?
  • Will the new system be better than II?
  • Can I afford to join?

I can't overstate that the new system, in my estimate, will kill the Marriott resale market - Marriott sells Points in an exchange club and resales are for deeded weeks not in Marriott's exchange club - the two are not compatible.; thus Wyndham type resales of 5 cents on the sales dollar.

But isn't this what the salesreps have said for years now?

"Better not buy resale or you'll be sorry"

Personally, I believe them.....
Perry, while I agree with your list of pros and cons in large part, I disagree with your previous assertion (if I understood correctly), that this means they shouldn't do it. I do believe they can come up with a win-win scenario for most owners and I don't think that resale values for weeks you and I own are their concern nor should they be.

Well that's the whole idea - at least to Marriott salesreps.
That's the main draw to the developer for all points systems/resorts I know of.

I don't think legally they can change the ability of any future resale owners to book what they are buying, because they are buying the original contract/deed.
They could restrict them to the actual week they bought and it's essentially a certainty that the inventories would be totally separate. I do agree that a weeks owner will have to have access to reserve "what they bought" on a relatively equal footing but there's really almost no way to make it totally equal for all situations. I also suspect it's like the 13/12 month reservation window will fall fairly early in such a plan. Look at the Maui Marriott property where they have had quite an issue of people buying "platinum" but not being able to get the time they wanted (like summer).

Since we are all speculating, try this one on.

Marriott's new points system will need lots of inventory.
So, every owner as of June 30 is grandfathered. No buy-in.

Rather than inventing a long table of point values for exchange, they adopt the Marriott Rewards point value (or a proportionate value) for each season or Plus week at every resort. They already have them.

Home resort reservation rules still apply.
So does the maintenance fee. As is currently the case, they are not tied to season value.

Exchanges via I.I. are still available for those who wish to not play.
Fred, I've said essentially the same thing. I don't think it'll be free and automatic but likely relatively easy and inexpensive early on. Even at free it might not be a good deal for many.

I don't see any way that the amount of points a unit gets can be used to determine the points value of any such system but I'm sure it'll mirror it in large part as in general the reward points a given week will trade for has some reflection of the underlying price and demand. However, the system has changed such that newer properties are tending to get less MR points than older ones did. Can we say Monarch at 130K MR points.
 

puckmanfl

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Dean...

If the incentives do get to convert your "primo" HHI weeks, Are you optimistic about your chances for obtaining "fair value" in a "like for like" exchange..
Keep in mind, more customers will be "eyeballing" the same weeks you are!!!

puckman
 

Dean

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Dean...

If the incentives do get to convert your "primo" HHI weeks, Are you optimistic about your chances for obtaining "fair value" in a "like for like" exchange..
Keep in mind, more customers will be "eyeballing" the same weeks you are!!!

puckman
No way to say at this point. I am confident that any points system Marriott rolls out will be a good and fair one and equally confident that some won't like it, esp those that are used to the current system. I'd be willing to bet Perry won't like it, any takers?
 

PerryM

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Nightmares on Marriott Street....

No way to say at this point. I am confident that any points system Marriott rolls out will be a good and fair one and equally confident that some won't like it, esp those that are used to the current system. I'd be willing to bet Perry won't like it, any takers?

I could very well love the new system - my II exchanges get higher Trading Power and I snag some upscale timeshares - maybe even Platinum Marriotts.

With our lockout and 59 day exchanges I could very well stay at 2BR Platinum Marriotts - twice!

Who knows what an unproven exchange system will bring to all of us.

But I am confident Marriott resales will be joining Wyndham at the 5% level eventually. I'll be on the lookout for fixed weeks in the Marriott system that I can use and rent as their resale value won't hit 5% but will be way below the old 60% level compared to current Marriott sales.

Like many other timeshare owners I hope to do well from the foibles of owners who just want to get out of the nightmare they are now in.

One person's nightmare is another person's dream come true.
 

Dean

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I could very well love the new system - my II exchanges get higher Trading Power and I snag some upscale timeshares - maybe even Platinum Marriotts.

With our lockout and 59 day exchanges I could very well stay at 2BR Platinum Marriotts - twice!

Who knows what an unproven exchange system will bring to all of us.

But I am confident Marriott resales will be joining Wyndham at the 5% level eventually. I'll be on the lookout for fixed weeks in the Marriott system that I can use and rent as their resale value won't hit 5% but will be way below the old 60% level compared to current Marriott sales.

Like many other timeshare owners I hope to do well from the foibles of owners who just want to get out of the nightmare they are now in.

One person's nightmare is another person's dream come true.
Perry, I can't ever recall seeing you post anything positive about Marriott, I'm sure it's happened but I don't recall it.
 

PerryM

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Stumbling and bumbling...

Perry, I can't ever recall seeing you post anything positive about Marriott, I'm sure it's happened but I don't recall it.

Well of course I have - all the vacations at the Maui Ocean Club, Beach Place Towers, MountainSide, Summit Watch, etc.

We used to own 3 MountainSides - 2 week 52's and 1 week 51 and 2 other Platinum Plus holiday weeks at other Marriotts. Sold all 5 for a BE profit and if you throw the years of usage and rental paid for all MFs and had a little left over. Those were the good ol' days.

You won't find me complaining about exchanging 10,000 WM credits in II and staying Christmas week at Summit Watch in a 2BR - love the place.

I just find the 4 years of constant bashing of resales by Marriott minions despicable and in the gutter like most other timeshare developers.

I think Marriott is simply doing what's best for their stockholders and if that harms us they don't give a hoot. Just like all the rest except for Disney.

In our case our only exposure is a $5,500 resale of a Gold week at Summit Watch I bought 4+ years ago and have fantastic exchanges and probably won't do so good in the future.

But some of you have hundreds of thousands of dollars at risk and this should be a VERY big deal to all of you.

We will see if June has Marriott exiting the timeshare business and rebooting as a timeshare exchange company with any success. For the sake of many folks here I hope Marriott doesn't stumble...
 

Dean

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Well of course I have - all the vacations at the Maui Ocean Club, Beach Place Towers, MountainSide, Summit Watch, etc.

We used to own 3 MountainSides - 2 week 52's and 1 week 51 and 2 other Platinum Plus holiday weeks at other Marriotts. Sold all 5 for a BE profit and if you throw the years of usage and rental paid for all MFs and had a little left over. Those were the good ol' days.

You won't find me complaining about exchanging 10,000 WM credits in II and staying Christmas week at Summit Watch in a 2BR - love the place.

I just find the 4 years of constant bashing of resales by Marriott minions despicable and in the gutter like most other timeshare developers.

I think Marriott is simply doing what's best for their stockholders and if that harms us they don't give a hoot. Just like all the rest except for Disney.

In our case our only exposure is a $5,500 resale of a Gold week at Summit Watch I bought 4+ years ago and have fantastic exchanges and probably won't do so good in the future.

But some of you have hundreds of thousands of dollars at risk and this should be a VERY big deal to all of you.

We will see if June has Marriott exiting the timeshare business and rebooting as a timeshare exchange company with any success. For the sake of many folks here I hope Marriott doesn't stumble...
My reference was your posts about the company and related info, not your vacations. Didn't you previously own several Marriott weeks that you divested yourself of? My risk is more than yours because I have more weeks and some of them are high end, but I knew going in there was risk and accepted those risks up front. It doesn't mean I'll be thrilled if I end up worse off but you won't see me complaining that Marriott is bad because such changes affect me negatively. About the most you'll see from me is a statement of where I am with any new system and what I see my choices are going forward.
 

m61376

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It's me again -- the only ways that I could see the system improving the exchanges opportunities for the points customers would be as follows (all at the expense of the existing customer base, retail and resale):

1) Marriott uses its massive quantity of weeks (in a trust) to book multiple consecutive prime weeks that now limit the inventory even further for non-points customers (but to the benefit of the points purchaser)
2) Marriott limits the ability of resale owners to make reservations until X months before check-in (edited: less likely per previous post)
3) Marriott extends the reservation time line for points purchasers (they all get 13 month reservations, even if they only have points for a single week, since the Trust has multiple weeks)
4) They offer loads of points for your Platinum week that make you think you can get better or flexible reservations

These would be reasons to join the point system if you are a single week platinum owner -- but I dislike the first 3 because they purely take advantage of the captive existing ownership (like Wyndham likes to do).


By the way, I think sales personnel may tell prospective buyers that Marriott reserves the best weeks for the points system, because its a great sales tool. I am skeptical that Marriott can and will be able to do that.

Good luck to all,

Greg
I am fairly certain that Marriott will only be able to play with the portion of weeks owned by the point system. Marriott must keep separate inventory and I am fairly certain will only be able to apportion the percentage of each reservation opportunity (week/day of arrival/unit size/unit view) that belongs to the point system. Thus, even if Marriott let point owners reserve at 13 months, the week owners would still have their fair share of inventory to reserve at the 12 month mark. That's why your first three scenarios won't make an impact.

Where it will get dicey are those resorts/villa size or villa views with very limited inventory.
 

m61376

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Since we are all speculating, try this one on.

Marriott's new points system will need lots of inventory.
So, every owner as of June 30 is grandfathered. No buy-in.

Rather than inventing a long table of point values for exchange, they adopt the Marriott Rewards point value (or a proportionate value) for each season or Plus week at every resort. They already have them.

Home resort reservation rules still apply.
So does the maintenance fee. As is currently the case, they are not tied to season value.

Exchanges via I.I. are still available for those who wish to not play.
Your speculation makes sense. The only real issue here is that over time newer resorts were issued higher point values and, in some cases, more recent buyers at the same resort received adjusted point allocations if they decided to trade in for points. The trade for reward point values aren't really a fair reflection of unit value, at least in my opinion.

My speculation would be a system similar to what you suggest, but I think a more equitable allotment would be to base the allocation on the fair market rental rate; Marriott's own rack rates for rentals are already in place, and reflect unit size, view, and resort demand (which is a combination of location and quality). Average the rental rates across each season. An objective system between unit sizes, views, even days of the week already exists and has been market tested and balanced across the board. Future resorts can similarly be allotted values based on their rental rate at the time compared to the allocations already in place elsewhere, so it would be easy to fairly equalize point allocations of newer properties- if they are that much nicer so that they demand a rental rate of 125% of another property, then it should receive a similar increase in points. It is easy to do and easy to make comparisons to compensate for inflation (ie- in 2010 resort A gets 2100 points. In 2015, resort B is built. Rental rates at resort A were $300 a night in 2010, but are $350 a night in 2015. If rental rates at resort B are $350 a night, then it should still only get 2100 points; if rental rates at resort B are $385 a night, then it should get 2310 points [the increased value adjusted for inflation]).
 

m61376

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I think there are several ways they could legally separate the inventory. They could do it by the week on the deed or by the % of owners that have converted within a given Marriott season. I think the latter is more likely but that assumes they retain the same seasons for the affected resorts in any new system as they have now.

I think they would have to do it by the percentage of owners that have converted within a certain unit type/season. Marriott spent twenty years telling owners that the week on the deed didn't matter and to now change that would cause a huge uproar.
 

Dean

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I think they would have to do it by the percentage of owners that have converted within a certain unit type/season. Marriott spent twenty years telling owners that the week on the deed didn't matter and to now change that would cause a huge uproar.
I agree this is most likely, esp early on. I think the issues will be at the extremes. Say only a few owners are left in a given category OR only a few have converted or for the 2 week Plat Plus situations where even a minimal amount of asymmetry between the 2 possible weeks might be evident. Just remember that even a great plan will have losers.
 

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Perry is very wary

My reference was your posts about the company and related info, not your vacations. Didn't you previously own several Marriott weeks that you divested yourself of? My risk is more than yours because I have more weeks and some of them are high end, but I knew going in there was risk and accepted those risks up front. It doesn't mean I'll be thrilled if I end up worse off but you won't see me complaining that Marriott is bad because such changes affect me negatively. About the most you'll see from me is a statement of where I am with any new system and what I see my choices are going forward.

I'm what might be called an aggressive consumer - I work hard for my money and I demand my money must work hard for me.

Marriott sounds like it wants to change all the rules it lived by for the past 20 years - I don't get to do the same so I take this as an ultra aggressive move against me and 400,000+ fellow owners. Tossing out the rule book in the middle of the game is a very aggressive, and hostile, move.

On Marriott's side I believe this is a sign of desperation and they've decided to bet MVCI as "all in". Personally I don't like it but I'm going to spend time trying to maximize the new rules to my advantage.

To those Marriott owners with a lot of money invested - you should be very wary of a company that wants to change the rules you used to buy into their product - very wary.

So I now lump Marriott into the same class as Wyndham, Westgate, and all the other companies who are a far step below Disney; it's a shame but Marriott is the one doing this...
 
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Dean

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I'm what might be called an aggressive consumer - I work hard for my money and I demand my money must work hard for me.

Marriott sounds like it wants to change all the rules it lived by for the past 20 years - I don't get to do the same so I take this as an ultra aggressive move against me and 400,000+ fellow owners. Tossing out the rule book in the middle of the game is a very aggressive, and hostile, move.

On Marriott's side I believe this is a sign of desperation and they've decided to bet MVCI as "all in". Personally I don't like it but I'm going to spend time trying to maximize the new rules to my advantage.

To those Marriott owners with a lot of money invested - you should be very wary of a company that wants to change the rules you used to buy into their product - very wary.

So I now lump Marriott into the same class as Wyndham, Westgate, and all the other companies who are a far step below Disney; it's a shame but Marriott is the one doing this...
Didn't you and I both say they should have done it previously, though likely for different reasons. Taking any such move as a personal affront would be a poor approach, IMO.

I know II has been rumored to have been developing a points product in the past, I wonder if a joint venture could be in order.
 

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Perry- Before we are hypercritical we need to see exactly what it is that they roll out. IF it is akin to the Asia Pacific program then I agree with you. I also agree that there is an inherent risk to changing the rules midstream.

IF they adopt a program similar to what Fred outlined, maintaining home resort priority and the ability to book what you own in advance but having the flexibility of a points based exchange system and the ability to even have some flexibility with length of stay at your home resort, without an added fee to join (or perhaps a minimal fee like II has), with all owners being equally welcomed (with the distinction between direct and resale purchasers remaining the ability to trade for Marriott Reward points that direct buyers have), and IF they use an equitable basis for point valuation which represents true value of a week (supply, demand and quality- which is already represented by the fair market rental rates) and has a means of maintaining equity as future resorts are added (a way of valuating future properties so that the points difference will represent unit value and not just an arbitrary inflation in order to enhance sales), I could see this as a real benefit to many owners.

Of course, those that have worked the system, such as you have, will understandably find fault. But to be honest, even you must admit that closing such loopholes really wouldn't be unfair and might make the program overall more inherently equitable. 3BR Plat. owners at prime resorts should get more for their trades, esp. when the 3BR resorts are non lock-off units. If those former "losers" benefit at the expense of the "upgraders," Marriott may hit upon something that, while not universally appealing, may be more equitable. My real concern is that Marriott is going to tilt the scales solely for Marriott's benefit. A pure points system utilized primarily as a sales ploy, with wide variation between point allocations with the likelihood of an ever increasing scale for future resorts, without home resort advantage so that people who paid a premium for premium weeks would continue to get first crack at reserving them, might have the dire consequences that you are predicting.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next months or so.
 

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Doing too well in America is a bad thing these days...

Perry- Before we are hypercritical we need to see exactly what it is that they roll out. IF it is akin to the Asia Pacific program then I agree with you. I also agree that there is an inherent risk to changing the rules midstream.

IF they adopt a program similar to what Fred outlined, maintaining home resort priority and the ability to book what you own in advance but having the flexibility of a points based exchange system and the ability to even have some flexibility with length of stay at your home resort, without an added fee to join (or perhaps a minimal fee like II has), with all owners being equally welcomed (with the distinction between direct and resale purchasers remaining the ability to trade for Marriott Reward points that direct buyers have), and IF they use an equitable basis for point valuation which represents true value of a week (supply, demand and quality- which is already represented by the fair market rental rates) and has a means of maintaining equity as future resorts are added (a way of valuating future properties so that the points difference will represent unit value and not just an arbitrary inflation in order to enhance sales), I could see this as a real benefit to many owners.

Of course, those that have worked the system, such as you have, will understandably find fault. But to be honest, even you must admit that closing such loopholes really wouldn't be unfair and might make the program overall more inherently equitable. 3BR Plat. owners at prime resorts should get more for their trades, esp. when the 3BR resorts are non lock-off units. If those former "losers" benefit at the expense of the "upgraders," Marriott may hit upon something that, while not universally appealing, may be more equitable. My real concern is that Marriott is going to tilt the scales solely for Marriott's benefit. A pure points system utilized primarily as a sales ploy, with wide variation between point allocations with the likelihood of an ever increasing scale for future resorts, without home resort advantage so that people who paid a premium for premium weeks would continue to get first crack at reserving them, might have the dire consequences that you are predicting.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out over the next months or so.

I love going to Vegas and playing blackjack - I've got my little card memorized, do some card counting and have a ball just watching folks lose money - at the end of the week I'm down a few bucks and had a really good time.

I learned a set of rules and used them to my advantage just to break even!

Sure I've done great with our Gold Summit Watch - I learned Marriott's and II's rules and idiosyncrasies and have done very well. Did I do too well? I'm sure many II weeks make it to the 59-day window at II and are basically given away. I've snapped up those too.

So should I be punished for playing by the rules and doing very well? It appears that some Marriott owners might just think so. I get that a lot.

Now, 20 years into selling timeshares Marriott decides to change the rules and it sounds like the rule changes will be large. Why change the rules at this late date?

Well that's what we will learn in June and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised but judging from all the tinkering that Marriott has done since I've been a Marriott owner, just 10 years, these changes will benefit Marriott and not me.

The thing I wish to stress is that my resort, Summit Watch, long ago sold out all the Platinum Plus, Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze is still around to haunt the HOA. The huge sales gallery has been torn down and condos built in its place. We, the owners, hire Marriott to run the place and clean the toilets.

Marriott want's to destroy that tranquility and turn owner against owner, some will join Marriott and their weeks are lost to those of us who don't convert; and vica-versa.

Resale values of Summit Watch owners will plunge in value as Marriott drives an exchange system we don't need down our throats; II will turn out to be just as good at making timeshare exchanges as Marriott can do.

Christmas weeks, New Year's weeks, President's weeks, 4th of July weeks and more will be hijacked by Marriott to sell more Points into an exchange system that I believe will do more harm to Marriott owners than help us.

And for what? For the benefit of Summit Watch owners - no. For Marriott's benefit.

I don't like it one bit. Could I be wrong - sure, but we are talking about timeshare developers and salesreps - I don't give them the benefit of my doubt at all...
 

Dean

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I love going to Vegas and playing blackjack - I've got my little card memorized, do some card counting and have a ball just watching folks lose money - at the end of the week I'm down a few bucks and had a really good time.

I learned a set of rules and used them to my advantage just to break even!

Sure I've done great with our Gold Summit Watch - I learned Marriott's and II's rules and idiosyncrasies and have done very well. Did I do too well? I'm sure many II weeks make it to the 59-day window at II and are basically given away. I've snapped up those too.

So should I be punished for playing by the rules and doing very well? It appears that some Marriott owners might just think so. I get that a lot.

Now, 20 years into selling timeshares Marriott decides to change the rules and it sounds like the rule changes will be large. Why change the rules at this late date?

Well that's what we will learn in June and maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised but judging from all the tinkering that Marriott has done since I've been a Marriott owner, just 10 years, these changes will benefit Marriott and not me.

The thing I wish to stress is that my resort, Summit Watch, long ago sold out all the Platinum Plus, Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze is still around to haunt the HOA. The huge sales gallery has been torn down and condos built in its place. We, the owners, hire Marriott to run the place and clean the toilets.

Marriott want's to destroy that tranquility and turn owner against owner, some will join Marriott and their weeks are lost to those of us who don't convert; and vica-versa.

Resale values of Summit Watch owners will plunge in value as Marriott drives an exchange system we don't need down our throats; II will turn out to be just as good at making timeshare exchanges as Marriott can do.

Christmas weeks, New Year's weeks, President's weeks, 4th of July weeks and more will be hijacked by Marriott to sell more Points into an exchange system that I believe will do more harm to Marriott owners than help us.

And for what? For the benefit of Summit Watch owners - no. For Marriott's benefit.

I don't like it one bit. Could I be wrong - sure, but we are talking about timeshare developers and salesreps - I don't give them the benefit of my doubt at all...
Perry, technically all you bought was a Gold week at Summit Watch all the rest is just add on that was not guaranteed and not contractual. As has been pointed out, you should still have a fair option to use the week (season) you own and likely to trade it as well though possibly without the II internal trading preference going forward. I don't see this as hurting a given resort (not that it affects the decision even if it does) and if there are unsold weeks that can now be sold, that will help such affected resorts. That you learned the rules and they might change in a way neg to some really has no meaning in my book if done even handedly, to me, such is the way of timesharing. When someone suggests that you've done well using the current system and that it might change for the neg, that's not about punishing people, however if a new system ends up being very negative for people in some positions (myself included), so be it. As for owner against owner, IMO, it's always been that way with timesharing, esp Marriott, other than fixed week/fixed unit resorts like HP, Vail & Monarch and one has to wonder how long at least 2 of those 3 will be a part of the system at all.

I don't see how Marriott could hijack weeks. I predict you'll actually like the new system OVERALL but dislike the options to get from where you are to a position you can use it. This should be fun for a few more months at least.
 

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Let the morphing begin...

Perry, technically all you bought was a Gold week at Summit Watch all the rest is just add on that was not guaranteed and not contractual. As has been pointed out, you should still have a fair option to use the week (season) you own and likely to trade it as well though possibly without the II internal trading preference going forward. I don't see this as hurting a given resort (not that it affects the decision even if it does) and if there are unsold weeks that can now be sold, that will help such affected resorts. That you learned the rules and they might change in a way neg to some really has no meaning in my book if done even handedly, to me, such is the way of timesharing. When someone suggests that you've done well using the current system and that it might change for the neg, that's not about punishing people, however if a new system ends up being very negative for people in some positions (myself included), so be it. As for owner against owner, IMO, it's always been that way with timesharing, esp Marriott, other than fixed week/fixed unit resorts like HP, Vail & Monarch and one has to wonder how long at least 2 of those 3 will be a part of the system at all.

I don't see how Marriott could hijack weeks. I predict you'll actually like the new system OVERALL but dislike the options to get from where you are to a position you can use it. This should be fun for a few more months at least.

A hijacker doesn't own the thing they take control over.

Marriott need not own one single hot holiday week to sell all of them. Marriott will be hijacking owner's deposited weeks as something that is up for sale but in actuality Silver weeks at Branson might be the weeks generating enough Points to theoretically reserve a Platinum Plus week.

That's the hijacking I'm talking about.

This is not unique in the Points world - all the Points developers spend all their time selling enough Points to get to holiday weeks. They, like Marriott, oversell holiday weeks with impunity.

Then the fun begins - how will Marriott handle hot holiday weeks that everyone wants - the Points required will not be enough to stymie the demand their salesreps caused.

Marriott, like all the other Point systems, will shrug its shoulders and just sell more holiday weeks.

I love Point systems and if Points were there from day one, like WM or Disney, then every owner bought in under those rules and need never worry about the developer morphing back to weeks.

Marriott will join Wyndham and enter the party late and cause huge consternation among the owners and that will be easy to see as more Marriott owners dump their weeks on the resale market and prices head to 5 cents on the sales dollar like Wyndham.

History repeats all the time - the experiment with Wyndham's morphing from weeks to Points will repeat here with Marriott. Marriott could care less - we, the owners, will see history repeat itself right in front of our eyes.
 

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A hijacker doesn't own the thing they take control over.

Marriott need not own one single hot holiday week to sell all of them. Marriott will be hijacking owner's deposited weeks as something that is up for sale but in actuality Silver weeks at Branson might be the weeks generating enough Points to theoretically reserve a Platinum Plus week.

That's the hijacking I'm talking about.

This is not unique in the Points world - all the Points developers spend all their time selling enough Points to get to holiday weeks. They, like Marriott, oversell holiday weeks with impunity.

Then the fun begins - how will Marriott handle hot holiday weeks that everyone wants - the Points required will not be enough to stymie the demand their salesreps caused.

Marriott, like all the other Point systems, will shrug its shoulders and just sell more holiday weeks.

I love Point systems and if Points were there from day one, like WM or Disney, then every owner bought in under those rules and need never worry about the developer morphing back to weeks.

Marriott will join Wyndham and enter the party late and cause huge consternation among the owners and that will be easy to see as more Marriott owners dump their weeks on the resale market and prices head to 5 cents on the sales dollar like Wyndham.

History repeats all the time - the experiment with Wyndham's morphing from weeks to Points will repeat here with Marriott. Marriott could care less - we, the owners, will see history repeat itself right in front of our eyes.
Making appropriate assumptions of course. Technically they wouldn't be selling those weeks, only the opportunity to vie for them assuming an appropriate and fair (but not perfect) coexistence of points and weeks. And they'd only be doing so within the confines of the weeks that were in the points system. We don't know if a points system will happen and if it does, how the priorities will be divided up. Worst case scenario for a single resort and their owners it would likely only affect other points members. It will likely help seasonal resorts with unsold or weeks turned back in. I would agree that every point sold is a high demand point in the eyes of the buying and that such is the very nature of all points systems I know of save one resort which ties the points to a unit view, size AND season; a system I don't think workable for Marriott to that degree.
 

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Making appropriate assumptions of course. Technically they wouldn't be selling those weeks, only the opportunity to vie for them assuming an appropriate and fair (but not perfect) coexistence of points and weeks. And they'd only be doing so within the confines of the weeks that were in the points system. We don't know if a points system will happen and if it does, how the priorities will be divided up. Worst case scenario for a single resort and their owners it would likely only affect other points members. It will likely help seasonal resorts with unsold or weeks turned back in. I would agree that every point sold is a high demand point in the eyes of the buying and that such is the very nature of all points systems I know of save one resort which ties the points to a unit view, size AND season; a system I don't think workable for Marriott to that degree.

On the 50+ timeshare sales tours we've been on, Marriott, and other developers, use deception to sell timeshares:

"See that condo next door to our resort - it doubled in price in 2 years" is a favorite technique to get the prospect in the mood that their timeshare doubled in price too.

Marriott can now use this:
"See that week 52 reservation at MountainSide in our system - it costs just 50,000 Points - and I can sell you those Points for just $80,000"

Same kind of lie.
 

Dean

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On the 50+ timeshare sales tours we've been on, Marriott, and other developers, use deception to sell timeshares:

"See that condo next door to our resort - it doubled in price in 2 years" is a favorite technique to get the prospect in the mood that their timeshare doubled in price too.

Marriott can now use this:
"See that week 52 reservation at MountainSide in our system - it costs just 50,000 Points - and I can sell you those Points for just $80,000"

Same kind of lie.
I don't see it the same at all but if we did, that would be essentially the same scenario for DVC and Worldmark and essentially any other points system and it's the same now as any other week in a floating system (see the Maui Marriott as an example). And given a choice, I don't see as a problem, just the nature of points systems. Plus as I pointed out, it should only affect those that chose to buy in who hopefully will realize that reservations are subject to availability and they're not buying a given week, only the ability to attempt to reserve that time. I'm confident that Marriott will provide this information though one might need to read the legal documents to get it.

With this concern I don't see how you could like ANY points system. I know you made the point about changing vs being the initial offering which I don't see as a consideration from a ownership usage standpoint even if it reduces exchange options or other peripheral effects beyond your purchased time at your home resort.

I don't recall Marriott ever being dishonest on a sales tour though I'm sure it's happened, others yes, but it's not the norm or suggested option from Marriott like it is with some companies.
 

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With this concern I don't see how you could like ANY points system. I know you made the point about changing vs being the initial offering which I don't see as a consideration from a ownership usage standpoint even if it reduces exchange options or other peripheral effects beyond your purchased time at your home resort.

Dean- While I agree with most of what you've said, I do feel changing the rules mid-stream is very different then if one buys under a certain set of rules and inferred expectations. Legally, Marriott must comply with a certain set of rules, but I can also appreciate the sense of unfairness if rules that have been in existence for twenty years which owners have made an assumption would continue based on precedent are suddenly changed.

Secondly, a point system without home resort advantage will effect the use of purchased time at one's home resort, even for some people who opt to stay in the current system. There are some resorts with limited villas in certain categories. For example, take a resort with 20-24 OF or 3BR villas, with 5 arrival days. Heretofore, someone wanting a Sat. arrival, for example, would have to try to nab one of four villas. If two are taken at 13 months, now it is one of two. What happens if half go to points? What happens if 60% go to points? This will be a real issue for some views/unit sizes at some resorts, and will ultimately infringe on the rights of one's purchased time at one's home resort. So there are ramifications beyond the exchange arena.

I know I resent the prospect that potentially my rights as an owner may be infringed upon. On the other hand, while I consider it unlikely, I can envision an equitable points system with home resort priority retained which could conceivably make the system more equitable overall, but would still make some people unhappy because in making an equitable point system up-trades would be eliminated or at least severely curtailed. Did I like getting a 2BR for my studio this past Feb.- of course (although it was a Flexchange trade)- but I can admit that it wasn't an equitable trade, and wouldn't resent it's curtailment. However, I think others, such as Perry, would, because they've grown accustomed to using their ownership that way and had the natural expectation of the program continuing.

Clearly Marriott won't satisfy everyone. It will be interesting to see which path- if any- they decide to follow.
 

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Apples and pineapples - close but.....

I don't see it the same at all but if we did, that would be essentially the same scenario for DVC and Worldmark and essentially any other points system and it's the same now as any other week in a floating system (see the Maui Marriott as an example). And given a choice, I don't see as a problem, just the nature of points systems. Plus as I pointed out, it should only affect those that chose to buy in who hopefully will realize that reservations are subject to availability and they're not buying a given week, only the ability to attempt to reserve that time. I'm confident that Marriott will provide this information though one might need to read the legal documents to get it.

With this concern I don't see how you could like ANY points system. I know you made the point about changing vs being the initial offering which I don't see as a consideration from a ownership usage standpoint even if it reduces exchange options or other peripheral effects beyond your purchased time at your home resort.

I don't recall Marriott ever being dishonest on a sales tour though I'm sure it's happened, others yes, but it's not the norm or suggested option from Marriott like it is with some companies.

While what you say is absolutely true there is one HUGE difference that I keep yelling at the top of my lungs:

"Resales will die - Marriott sells Points and resales sell deeded weeks and NOT Points; the two are mutually exclusive".

WM and Disney sell Points(Credits) and so do folks selling their Points on the resale market; easy to compare developer prices and discount them on the resale market.

This dichotomy will eviscerate the Marriott resale market - deeded weeks can't be compared to Points so how does the resale market decide on what a deeded week, not compatible with Marriott's exchange system, is worth?

What makes me just livid is the fact that this aids Marriott recycle worthless deeded weeks into Points that they then sell at full value. We shall see in a few weeks if my fears are correct.

And Marriott's excuse is what - better exchanges among members in their Points club? Marriott will do no better than II does at matching exchanges. The complaints will be identical except for that membership fee which will be eye-watering.

I've given our experience with Marriott before:

We owned 3 MountainSides which initially offered 200,000 MRPs EOY and Marriott decided to make that EY if we would cough up $2,500 each - the offer was valid for 72 hours if I remember correctly.

We had no choice but to pay $7,500 and all new sales had that EY MRP built in. Of course we lost the $7,500 when we sold our units on the resale market.

So I've been down this path with Marriott before....
 

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...I've given our experience with Marriott before:

We owned 3 MountainSides which initially offered 200,000 MRPs EOY and Marriott decided to make that EY if we would cough up $2,500 each - the offer was valid for 72 hours if I remember correctly.

We had no choice but to pay $7,500 and all new sales had that EY MRP built in. Of course we lost the $7,500 when we sold our units on the resale market.....

You had no choice? Were they taking away the EOY option for pionts? What would have happened if you did not pay the $7500 per unit? What would you have lost/changed?

Ray
 
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