Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[RandR]

Can those who own in the Hilton system please answer a question for me? I seem to remember when I was looking at HGVC that the home resort advantage was only if you are booking the exact thing that you own. Meaning, if you owned a 2 bd Platinum, you had to reserve that for a full week. If you wanted to do something smaller/larger, out of season or shorter trip, you had to wait until the 9 month point with everyone else. Am I correct?

 

[Fredm]

; Your speculation makes sense. The only real issue here is that over time newer resorts were issued higher point values and, in some cases, more recent buyers at the same resort received adjusted point allocations if they decided to trade in for points. The trade for reward point values aren't really a fair reflection of unit value, at least in my opinion.

My speculation would be a system similar to what you suggest, but I think a more equitable allotment would be to base the allocation on the fair market rental rate.

Equitable to whom? Not those who already have a higher MR value.

MR points already exist. Owners already know the comparative value. Yes, KoOlina gets 85,000, and Desert Springs Red gets 125,000. Owners bought KoOlina anyway, because they want to occupy KoOlina. KoOlina owners are not revolting because they only get 85,000 MR if they want a point exchange. They are not saying "gee, I should get as many hotel nights as Desert Springs owners".

We already know that the I.I. affiliation agreement has just been renewed. Owners will be able to exchange weeks internally and externally, as always.

I think the new program will be positioned as yet another "enhancement".

I may be way off base, but I give Marriott more credit than some here. I simply cannot swallow the idea that Marriott is going to announce a "me too" points program. Makes no sense to me.
Nor can I believe they will do anything that compromises the perception of value with its owners. 45% of all new sales are from existing owners and their direct referrals. NOTHING is worth screwing that up.
I expect nothing less than a program that redefines the branded timeshare industry.
I will be sorely disappointed if it is otherwise.

Marriott can do that by expanding the program to include some number of resort hotels (similar to the AP program), and use MR values as the basis for the currency (a close look a the AP point values suggests that they are structured at ~2:1 of Marriott Rewards).
Sold this way, owners will perceive the whole thing as yet another flexible option. No less fair than the current MR timeshare values.
I.I. trades will continue to be available, just as before

If owners want more, then they can buy more. IF all owners are initially grandfathered at no cost, it will be a home run (no, it will be a grand slam).

Of course, I am just mind tripping. But, I cannot escape my underlying assumption that the new program will have the competition scrambling. Otherwise, why do it? Not to screw existing owners who account for 45% of all new business.

 

[m61376]

Fred- While I agree in premise to most of what you say, I strongly disagree that a system based on current MR point valuations could be considered equitable by most people, for several reasons.

The case you cited illustrates the underlying inequity. True, Ko'Olina owners bought anyway, because they wanted to occupy AND because they knew that their trade value would be at the top of the heap, and many recognized that with the high MF's they'd be unlikely to trade for reward points. That is VERY different from having an inferior trade value when doing any internal trades. At many resorts, different views, which may have cost 5K more, have the same point trade value. Plat. Plus weeks, which may have a double upfront cost, may only get 15% greater reward points.

Extrapolating what is an inherently unfair reward point allocation to be the basis of all exchanges, or even any booking at your home resort other than the week of ownership (or, if there is no home resort priority, as the basis of all reservations) would be to create an inherently inequitable system from the get-go; it would be a system that had built in inequities like you mentioned, and had valuations based on time of construction and, to a certain extent, sales marketing, rather than being a true value of unit value. IF Marriott wants to create an equitable system it must base value on some objective terms, and the "value" must reflect unit size, view, time of visit, geographical location and resort quality/amenities. The designated value must reflect market conditions- and what better reflection of market demand is the rack rental rate which has already been set for every parameter, and is seemingly accurate since Marriott is a successful hotelier.

The fact that a Desert Spring week gets almost 50% more reward points than a Hawaii week is enough evidence to me that the reward point conversion is flawed. In reality, depending on time of purchase, the same property may be valuated differently wrt reward points. I think if Marriott does, in fact, do as you suggest, and base their valuation on the current reward point values, it will be doomed from the start.

 

[dougp26364]

Can those who own in the Hilton system please answer a question for me? I seem to remember when I was looking at HGVC that the home resort advantage was only if you are booking the exact thing that you own. Meaning, if you owned a 2 bd Platinum, you had to reserve that for a full week. If you wanted to do something smaller/larger, out of season or shorter trip, you had to wait until the 9 month point with everyone else. Am I correct?

This is true. We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season at the Las Vegas Strip location. During home resort advantage I must book the entire 2 bedroom unit. It can not be split and I can not book either a 1 bedroom or studio unit. I may ONLY book the exact style unit I own. It's one of the few drawbacks we have with HGVC.

Should we only want to use enough points for a 1 bedroom exchange, I have to wait until the 9 month date when everyone can book whatever is in the inventory. Should this same system be implemented with Marriott, it would be a problem for us. We bought 3 bedroom units not because we needed or even wanted 3 bedroom units. We bought them for their location, unit layout and view.

Needless to say we always have locked out the units in the past and exchanged the lock-out portion. This year will be the first year since 2001 that we'll book the full 3 bedroom unit at Ocean Pointe and that's only because we're planning on having company. Should that company back out, I'll lock the unit off and deposit the studio section for a future exchange.

 

[PerryM]

Around the world or ski Park City?

You had no choice? Were they taking away the EOY option for pionts? What would have happened if you did not pay the $7500 per unit? What would you have lost/changed?

Ray

We were given 3 days to decide and the offer would be withdrawn - we would be stuck with turning in MRPs EOY. Why not 1 month? We got a phone call on a Monday, I think, and were told that a credit card charge of $2,500 for each week would be required by Wednesday at the close of business EST.

Basically Marriott sold us on New Year's week at Park City, in a 2BR, or 2 round trip airline tickets to any Marriott on the planet for 1 week. Initially turning in the week for MRPs was limited to EOY but the demand was so great because of the up coming 2002 Olympics in Park City that they wanted EY capability of MRPs so villas could be gotten easier by non-timeshare Marriott folks.

At the time we planed to keep our units for many many years and at that time 200,000 MRPs could get you 2 round trip airline tickets ANYWHERE on the planet and 1 week at a Cat 5 Marriott hotel. I believe the MF back in 2000 was $650 and 2 round trip tickets to Australia and 1 week at a Marriott was $4,000 - we thought it was a fantastic concept.

It was a big thing back then - now its much less.

Back then MountainSide had a price increase every Friday so it was hard to tell if new sales bumped up $2,500 for Platinum Plus weeks. I doubt new units were instantly increased by $2,500 plus the regularly scheduled price increase.

This same pressure will be applied to converting units when the new system is released - time measured in hours.

 

[puckmanfl]

Doug

Just curious!!! When you try for inventory at the 9 mos. window for occupancy NOT at your home resort is there an adequate supply for "like-like" exchanges???

 

[bogey21]

We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season at the Las Vegas Strip location.

I'm not an HGVC Owner, but I really like all the HGVC Las Vegas Resorts.

George

 

[dougp26364]

Doug

Just curious!!! When you try for inventory at the 9 mos. window for occupancy NOT at your home resort is there an adequate supply for "like-like" exchanges???

Generally speaking, if it's with a HGVC resort (Orlando, Hawaii and Vegas) the answer is yes. Most of the affilitated resorts have a lot fewer units available for HGVC members so, in their case, not so much. It's the achilles heal of HGVC. The build in three major markets and keep their sales cost lower by concentrating on those markets.

Hawaii has been getting progressively more difficult as they over build Vegas and Orlando but sell new owners on the idea you can exchange into Hawaii very easily (Perry's contention about selling the most valuable resorts at lessor resort pricing). I can exchange into Hawaii for most dates but, the inventory of types of units can be limited. For instance, I wanted a 1 or 2 bedroom ocean front unit. The best I could do was a 1 bedroom ocean view or a 2 bedroom city view at HHV in the Lagoon Tower.

On the other hand, I can get pretty much anything I want in either Orlando or Vegas. We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season unit but, getting a 2 or 3 bedroom penthouse unit isn't hard at all. Even for the holiday weeks it really not an issue.

 

[Dean]

Dean- While I agree with most of what you've said, I do feel changing the rules mid-stream is very different then if one buys under a certain set of rules and inferred expectations. Legally, Marriott must comply with a certain set of rules, but I can also appreciate the sense of unfairness if rules that have been in existence for twenty years which owners have made an assumption would continue based on precedent are suddenly changed.

Secondly, a point system without home resort advantage will effect the use of purchased time at one's home resort, even for some people who opt to stay in the current system. There are some resorts with limited villas in certain categories. For example, take a resort with 20-24 OF or 3BR villas, with 5 arrival days. Heretofore, someone wanting a Sat. arrival, for example, would have to try to nab one of four villas. If two are taken at 13 months, now it is one of two. What happens if half go to points? What happens if 60% go to points? This will be a real issue for some views/unit sizes at some resorts, and will ultimately infringe on the rights of one's purchased time at one's home resort. So there are ramifications beyond the exchange arena.

I know I resent the prospect that potentially my rights as an owner may be infringed upon. On the other hand, while I consider it unlikely, I can envision an equitable points system with home resort priority retained which could conceivably make the system more equitable overall, but would still make some people unhappy because in making an equitable point system up-trades would be eliminated or at least severely curtailed. Did I like getting a 2BR for my studio this past Feb.- of course (although it was a Flexchange trade)- but I can admit that it wasn't an equitable trade, and wouldn't resent it's curtailment. However, I think others, such as Perry, would, because they've grown accustomed to using their ownership that way and had the natural expectation of the program continuing.

Clearly Marriott won't satisfy everyone. It will be interesting to see which path- if any- they decide to follow.

They can only really affect the owners that have purchased or converted into a points system as they will have to keep the inventory separate. As you point out (and I did earlier) limited villa numbers will mean it's not 100%. They can't feasibly take from us what we purchased but they can take from us based on our assumptions and ? trust. I don't see a fundamental change as a major issue else we'd all have corded phones and no cell phones. But I think there is an OK and not OK way to convert and we'll see where we all fall on that issue if it happens.

While what you say is absolutely true there is one HUGE difference that I keep yelling at the top of my lungs:

"Resales will die - Marriott sells Points and resales sell deeded weeks and NOT Points; the two are mutually exclusive".

WM and Disney sell Points(Credits) and so do folks selling their Points on the resale market; easy to compare developer prices and discount them on the resale market.

This dichotomy will eviscerate the Marriott resale market - deeded weeks can't be compared to Points so how does the resale market decide on what a deeded week, not compatible with Marriott's exchange system, is worth?

What makes me just livid is the fact that this aids Marriott recycle worthless deeded weeks into Points that they then sell at full value. We shall see in a few weeks if my fears are correct.

And Marriott's excuse is what - better exchanges among members in their Points club? Marriott will do no better than II does at matching exchanges. The complaints will be identical except for that membership fee which will be eye-watering.

I've given our experience with Marriott before:

We owned 3 MountainSides which initially offered 200,000 MRPs EOY and Marriott decided to make that EY if we would cough up $2,500 each - the offer was valid for 72 hours if I remember correctly.

We had no choice but to pay $7,500 and all new sales had that EY MRP built in. Of course we lost the $7,500 when we sold our units on the resale market.

So I've been down this path with Marriott before....

Perry, I'll repeat that what you and I can sell for is really not Marriott's concern, only what they can sell it for. I don't see your MR points issue as germane to the situation, no one forced you to pay up and you chose to sell. I suspect many of those new owners with EY points also paid more, likely that much more or greater. Of course only being able to trade for points EOY was likely a blessing anyway.

 

[Dean]

Equitable to whom? Not those who already have a higher MR value.

MR points already exist. Owners already know the comparative value. Yes, KoOlina gets 85,000, and Desert Springs Red gets 125,000. Owners bought KoOlina anyway, because they want to occupy KoOlina. KoOlina owners are not revolting because they only get 85,000 MR if they want a point exchange. They are not saying "gee, I should get as many hotel nights as Desert Springs owners".

We already know that the I.I. affiliation agreement has just been renewed. Owners will be able to exchange weeks internally and externally, as always.

I think the new program will be positioned as yet another "enhancement".

I may be way off base, but I give Marriott more credit than some here. I simply cannot swallow the idea that Marriott is going to announce a "me too" points program. Makes no sense to me.
Nor can I believe they will do anything that compromises the perception of value with its owners. 45% of all new sales are from existing owners and their direct referrals. NOTHING is worth screwing that up.
I expect nothing less than a program that redefines the branded timeshare industry.
I will be sorely disappointed if it is otherwise.

Marriott can do that by expanding the program to include some number of resort hotels (similar to the AP program), and use MR values as the basis for the currency (a close look a the AP point values suggests that they are structured at ~2:1 of Marriott Rewards).
Sold this way, owners will perceive the whole thing as yet another flexible option. No less fair than the current MR timeshare values.
I.I. trades will continue to be available, just as before

If owners want more, then they can buy more. IF all owners are initially grandfathered at no cost, it will be a home run (no, it will be a grand slam).

Of course, I am just mind tripping. But, I cannot escape my underlying assumption that the new program will have the competition scrambling. Otherwise, why do it? Not to screw existing owners who account for 45% of all new business.

I too give Marriott enough credit that if they convert to a points system it'll be something most people want to be a part of that would otherwise own or consider Marriott. But not everyone will be happy, Perry, I'm still betting you will be one that is not.

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening....

Please let's not discount the ability to use II's internal MVCI preference as some minor benefit of current ownership. There is nothing immoral or evil at work here amongst the owners that use this. The ability to use lock offs as flexchange "chips" is a well documented part of the "old system" marketing strategy. I distinctly remember owner seminars on how to do this. The sales pitch for "doggy" weeks was as follows. "Get a 2 bedroom lock off doggy week, lock off and use BOTH halves for awesome Flexchange deals". They were actually correct, but the weeks "snagged" in this fashion are the ones that other MVCI owners have "passed" on. I am sure that Perry and I are not the only souls that have figured this out. It is important to remember that this product was sold BOTH as an occupancy AND exchange tool. I don't agree with the line of thought that states " an owner is only entitled to in -season usage at home resort and all else is gravy". Please remember the name of the organization is called "Vacation CLUB international"..

I am hopeful that Fredm is correct and this turns out to be the best "mousetrap"....but I am concerned that ability to do even like/like exchanges may be diminished!!!

 

[PerryM]

...

Perry, I'll repeat that what you and I can sell for is really not Marriott's concern, only what they can sell it for. I don't see your MR points issue as germane to the situation, no one forced you to pay up and you chose to sell. I suspect many of those new owners with EY points also paid more, likely that much more or greater. Of course only being able to trade for points EOY was likely a blessing anyway.

My illustration is simple meant to show:

• Marriott has charged $2,500 for new features to existing ownership before
• Marriott applies pressure with arbitrary small time frames

Expect the same with their new system.

 

[Dean]

good evening....

Please let's not discount the ability to use II's internal MVCI preference as some minor benefit of current ownership. There is nothing immoral or evil at work here amongst the owners that use this. The ability to use lock offs as flexchange "chips" is a well documented part of the "old system" marketing strategy. I distinctly remember owner seminars on how to do this. The sales pitch for "doggy" weeks was as follows. "Get a 2 bedroom lock off doggy week, lock off and use BOTH halves for awesome Flexchange deals". They were actually correct, but the weeks "snagged" in this fashion are the ones that other MVCI owners have "passed" on. I am sure that Perry and I are not the only souls that have figured this out. It is important to remember that this product was sold BOTH as an occupancy AND exchange tool. I don't agree with the line of thought that states " an owner is only entitled to in -season usage at home resort and all else is gravy". Please remember the name of the organization is called "Vacation CLUB international"..

I am hopeful that Fredm is correct and this turns out to be the best "mousetrap"....but I am concerned that ability to do even like/like exchanges may be diminished!!!

IMO, sales tactics not based in contractual information are not guaranteed and can be taken away at any time. What some sales person promised or an angle they used really means nothing otherwise. While we all bought with certain assumptions, technically we ONLY bought a week at a given resort during a season, there is no denying this. While I wouldn't see using the exchange system as set up as immoral, I also wouldn't see changing it completely as wrong.

My illustration is simple meant to show:

• Marriott has charged $2,500 for new features to existing ownership before
• Marriott applies pressure with arbitrary small time frames

Expect the same with their new system.

I would see neither of those issues as anything wrong on Marriott's part. You had the choice. Even DVC has used 3 day limits on promotions and stuck to it. I would see it as a much larger problem if they were inconsistent in such matters.

Other than some basic assumptions including my right to reserve and use my week, I don't know what to expect with a new system. I assume that the II internal trading preference will go away at some point and that there will be some cost and compromise if I want to convert to the new system. But the choice will be mine though I realize that the fear of what I might lose by not converting (like you with the EY MR points option) may drive my decisions.

 

[puckmanfl]

Dean...

Shame on me for my "naivete". I played by the rules and I did not expect a company that I have always trusted for integrity to change the "rules" 20 years into the game. I specifically remember the "stuff " about how a weeks based II system " is the most valuable. I was actually told if I wanted "points" I should buy DISNEY...

I am still hopeful that they will use this as an opportunity to reinvent the wheel and to become "the best and brightest", but none of the posts have really convinced me that this system will benefit me unless i want a bunch of flexible varying length stays to off season joints... Please keep in mind that it only takes 1 home resort owner extending a stay from Friday to the NEXT Sunday to completely take a week out of circulation!!!

You can be sure, I will be examining the "fine print" on the offering to be 100% sure what is "changeable" AND subject to devaluation in the new program

 

[RandR]

This is true. We own a 2 bedroom Platinum season at the Las Vegas Strip location. During home resort advantage I must book the entire 2 bedroom unit. It can not be split and I can not book either a 1 bedroom or studio unit. I may ONLY book the exact style unit I own. It's one of the few drawbacks we have with HGVC.

Should we only want to use enough points for a 1 bedroom exchange, I have to wait until the 9 month date when everyone can book whatever is in the inventory. Should this same system be implemented with Marriott, it would be a problem for us. We bought 3 bedroom units not because we needed or even wanted 3 bedroom units. We bought them for their location, unit layout and view.

Needless to say we always have locked out the units in the past and exchanged the lock-out portion. This year will be the first year since 2001 that we'll book the full 3 bedroom unit at Ocean Pointe and that's only because we're planning on having company. Should that company back out, I'll lock the unit off and deposit the studio section for a future exchange.

That's what I thought. When I was trying to decide whether to go HGVC or MVCI that was one of the things that held me back from HGVC. It will be interesting to see what Marriott roles out.

 

[Dean]

Dean...

Shame on me for my "naivete". I played by the rules and I did not expect a company that I have always trusted for integrity to change the "rules" 20 years into the game. I specifically remember the "stuff " about how a weeks based II system " is the most valuable. I was actually told if I wanted "points" I should buy DISNEY...

I am still hopeful that they will use this as an opportunity to reinvent the wheel and to become "the best and brightest", but none of the posts have really convinced me that this system will benefit me unless i want a bunch of flexible varying length stays to off season joints... Please keep in mind that it only takes 1 home resort owner extending a stay from Friday to the NEXT Sunday to completely take a week out of circulation!!!

You can be sure, I will be examining the "fine print" on the offering to be 100% sure what is "changeable" AND subject to devaluation in the new program

I think we'll all be examining any new program closely, how it can change (the worst case scenario) is really important. Keep in mind that even things in print in the legal paperwork can often change unilaterally. My original POS from Grande Ocean gives a reservation procedure of sending a written request with several choices by mail. Normally I assume the worst and hope for the best with timeshares. I trust Marriott will come forward with a good product but don't know if it'll be for me yet. I also realize they are a company with profit as their primary goal.

As for changing the rules mid term, I wonder how those owners at the Sea Pines Villas, Spicebush, Swallowtail, Loon Mt, Barbados, part of Vail, Paradise Island and Longboat Bay Club feel about this issue. Esp SB/ST who were asked by Marriott to do certain things that had associated costs so they could stay within, they did so, and were dropped anyway (I know it's a little more complicated but that's the basics as I see it). Or how will Harbour Pointe and the rest of Vail feel about Marriott when they've been let go.

That's what I thought. When I was trying to decide whether to go HGVC or MVCI that was one of the things that held me back from HGVC. It will be interesting to see what Marriott roles out.

A system with essentially no home resort priority is a problem, esp within Marriott. The demand is too unequal to be workable with everyone vying for the high demand options at the same time. IMO they have to have some type of home resort/season type priority (and more than HGVC has) OR they have to have a VIP system like Wyndham/Bluegreen. I don't see a free for all as workable

 

[PerryM]

...
I would see neither of those issues as anything wrong on Marriott's part. You had the choice. Even DVC has used 3 day limits on promotions and stuck to it. I would see it as a much larger problem if they were inconsistent in such matters.

...

Never even hinted that Marriott has done anything wrong - just that they have done it in the past and will do so in the future...

 

[dougp26364]

That's what I thought. When I was trying to decide whether to go HGVC or MVCI that was one of the things that held me back from HGVC. It will be interesting to see what Marriott roles out.

That and the lack of true HGVC destinations are what kept me from increasing my ownership with Hilton. Hilton's great if you want to go to Orlando, Vegas or Hawaii.

From what I've seen in looking around, there is no perfect system. Everything has it's drawbacks and, as Perry has pointed out, the developers won't roll out a system that doesn't work towards increasing sales. For that matter, every system I've seen has some form of discouragement for resale buyers.

Now as to whether Marriott will be charging owners to join any new points based system, I have little doubt they will. That will be almost pure profit except for the paper work involved in amending the deeds. I'm hoping it's nothing like the $2,500 I'm seeing bandied about but, DRI charged current Polo Towers owners $2,995 to join THE Club but, they already had a strong base of owners that were in the points program. I would like to think that Marriott would want to encourage large groups of owners to join any new points program they might roll out by keeping the joiner fee more reasonable. Especially when you consider the current economic situation. $500 would be a no brainer for me IF the program would work for us. $1,000 is pushing it right now as far as my budget is concerned and the facts we tend to use our units and I'd still be happy exchanging through Interval.

But then again it will depend on my percieved value of any new program to me. With DRI, I was able to calculate the benefit and it was pretty obvious after I ran the numbers that I could still get the usage I was accustomed to AND squeeze enough value to offset the joiner fee in a little over 2 years. If things didn't change for the worse, after 3 years the program would actually be profitable to me. Because of how we use our Marriott ownerships, it's doubtful that it would be beneficial for me to join the same program with Marriott at the same price.

 

[m61376]

Doug-
I agree that the price to join needs to be under 1K, esp. if it is per week, esp. if they are rolling something so dramatically different out in this economy. Otherwise I think most people won't even consider such a discretionary expense. Marriott has to recognize that many owners will still opt for II membership and/or have multi-year II memberships that have already been paid for. So this is likely just an additional expense, rather than a substitute for II's membership fees.

Besides the cost is of course the question of whether they are inclusive of resale owners and/or just make a minimal differentiation (doesn't DVC, Hyatt and HGVC either treat all owners the same or have some insignificant distinction?) and the more universal concerns of home resort priority (or lack thereof), how the points are allocated (are they tied to some objective factor and can this modality be used to fairly allocate points for any future properties), and how will MF's be determined?

I hope once (if?) the program is announced those with more expertise will thoroughly dissect the pros and cons, so that IF, as Perry suggests, there is a time limited initial offer, we can make an educated decision expeditiously.

btw- something I think Marriott tried to do in the initial offering of the AP program was to enhance the reward point conversion for a limited time (I think it was 5:1 for the first ten years or so and then returned to 3:1) and then later offerings didn't have this enhancement. I suspect the initial offering will have some type of similar perk built in. I am actually surprised that the overall program did not enhance the reward point conversion, since that truly could be a great benefit to buying retail, as many here have attested to. While many here still tout it as a wonderful option, I think most (although I could be wrong) feel that at current pricing and at recent limited up front point offerings, coupled with current increased MF's, along with stagnant reward point conversions despite program point devaluations, retail purchases are, at best, questionable. Over the last six months I've seen even one of the most ardent supporters of retail purchases buy a resale week because the price difference didn't warrant the added "value" of the points program.

So, I think Marriott really has the opportunity here to be inclusive of all owners but to really enhance their direct sales- they can include all owners in the new program, even charge a uniform initiation fee- BUT enhance the rewards program perk only, of course, for those entitled to participate. Give points that reflect real value. If they can rent your timeshare for $750 a night or more, give enough points to reserve hotel rooms in that price range for a week (or a lower priced room for a longer period). Imagine how attractive a program would be if owners could trade in their week knowing they will be getting similar value. That's the best way to have people clamoring to buy directly- make it not only a timeshare product, but create a seamless use of hotels as an option for world-wide travel. Make the rewards program option once again a valuable perk, as it was designed to be and once was.

 

[PerryM]

Yes, there's an App for that....

A shining example of a Point based exchange system gouging their customers is RCI Points.

Our resort used to charge $150, 5+ years ago, to join now charges $4,000 to join - per week.

(I understand that it's the resorts doing this and not RCI but who cares)

All Marriott has to do is have a live counter, ticking away, that shows the current fee to join:

[3] memberships left at [$2,000] per week

Next [20] at [$2,100] per week​

That's all Marriott has to do and it will have a stampede on it's hands.

(The numbers in [ ] are changeable by Marriott to reflect goals met and targets still open)

Hell, if I were Marriott I'd give away an App for the iPhone/Android - watch the numbers move in real time - it probably would go viral with the right push from Marriott.

Get your App...​

(Even if you don't own an iPhone/Android, you need this App)​

 

[RandR]

A system with essentially no home resort priority is a problem, esp within Marriott. The demand is too unequal to be workable with everyone vying for the high demand options at the same time. IMO they have to have some type of home resort/season type priority (and more than HGVC has) OR they have to have a VIP system like Wyndham/Bluegreen. I don't see a free for all as workable

I agree that a home resort priority is important. The problem with Hilton's is that it allows you to do nothing else other than get exactly what you paid for. At least in MVCI I can lock off and use my 1bd when I want to go and then use the l/o for a trade.

 

[m61376]

Perry-
:ignore: shhh...don't give them any ideas! A sign up woot off would create a feeding frenzy, that's for sure, but I hope Marriott is smart enough to realize that, at the end of the day, it relies on having happy campers, and hopefully won't try to shove anything down anyone's throats.

 

[Dean]

I agree that a home resort priority is important. The problem with Hilton's is that it allows you to do nothing else other than get exactly what you paid for. At least in MVCI I can lock off and use my 1bd when I want to go and then use the l/o for a trade.

That's why I said essentially no home resort because I didn't think that that stated for HGVC wa enough esp for converting current resorts.

A shining example of a Point based exchange system gouging their customers is RCI Points.

Our resort used to charge $150, 5+ years ago, to join now charges $4,000 to join - per week.

(I understand that it's the resorts doing this and not RCI but who cares)

IMO it matters a great deal who's doing it. While it may not affect the cost if you own at that resort, it does affect your choices and who you look to as someone you want to do business with.

Never even hinted that Marriott has done anything wrong - just that they have done it in the past and will do so in the future...

That's appropriate as historical perspective though I really don't think it has any bearing on this current issue. However the tone of your posts suggested you were posting the info as a negative slant toward Marriott as has been your usual. Sorry, if I misunderstood. IMO they can charge what they want and then the choice is mine as to whether to bite or not as it was for you for the EY points which you chose to participate in then give up when you sold.

 

[BocaBum99]

Marriott is just doing what ALL Resort Developers do. They double, triple and quadruple dip on their current customer base at 2-3 times what an educated buyer would pay. Nobody here should be surprised. In fact, we should anticipate and exploit it. It's so predictable that it's easy to capitalize on (or be eaten alive by) their future actions.

Marriott will definitely launch a points system sometime in the near future. If not June, then some other time within the foreseeable future. Why? Because they can make even more money by selling the same inventory and access to inventory to new owners that they already sold to past customers. They will be able to re-acquire inventory at pennies on the dollar and then resell the same product again and again to new suckers who are born every day.

Moreover, access to inventory is a zero sum game. If you give access to one group, another group loses it. That IS what developers do. But, all is not lost. In fact, this creates more opportunity for all of us here on TUG funded by Retail owners who buy directly from Marriott. Smart resale buyers will always be able to get a lion share of the benefit for a fraction of the cost. Being a member of TUG, you have decided to take the "RED" pill. Stick around and we will tell you how deep the rabbit hole goes. I've been to the bottom and it's an unbelievable place. This new Marriott point system will be no different.

Those who are trying to figure out what to do are thinking about the situation incorrectly. That thinking as expressed in above posts will force you to make the same mistake over and over again. Stop doing that! Start thinking like an opportunist and not a fairness advocate. Timesharing is inherently unfair. Either get on the same side as the opportunists or get eaten alive by them. Sorry, but timesharing is all about survival of the fittest and smartest at making the rules work for them... whatever they are. Everyone else pays for their cheap vacations.

It's clear to me that Marriott will try to coerce owners into the new system. They will do it by scaring owners into believing that the only way to get access to prime inventory is to turn their prime weeks over to Marriott control. Many many owners will fall for this while making additional purchases. Marriott will lure us into their trap by taking all of their inventory and put it into the points pool. What once went to II exchangers will no longer be available. It will now be in the Marriott's own Flexchange program. In addition, Marriott will subsidize maintenance fees for a few years so that a comparison of what owners currently pay vs. what they will have after a small retail purchase will be artificially lower for now. Later, those fees will be raised at a much higher than inflation rate to catch up with the subsidies as they remove them. It's the oldest trick in the book.

So, the counter Marriott's actions, it is very likely that the smartest move will be to determine where the great inventory actually is. Then, get a resale purchase at the highest value, lowest cost resorts. Expect to hold for 2-3 years. Take out as much high value internal exchanges as you can in that time. Dump it before the fees start ramping before Marriott is sold out. Take advantage of the low rates when Marriott is subsidizing them.

The only thing we don't know is what the rules are. When we know the rules, it will be patently obvious how to outsmart the Marriott product managers. Why? Because they have no choice but to create simple rules. Those simple rules will not be a perfect market solution. In other words, supply and demand will not be matched by whatever point table they create. Whenever it is in our favor to own. Buy. Whenever it isn't, stay away.

As I said earlier, I don't care what Marriott launches. I will find a way to make it work simply by evaluating the rules they put into place and exploiting them. All others watch your wallets.

 

[RedDogSD]

Well said. No matter what they come up with...the TUGGERS will be able to manipulate it.