Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[Dean]

With Marriott pushing this rumor for 4+ years I'd bet they think this is a big deal.

My assumption, all along, is that the optimum decision making period will be measured in hours after the announcement - maybe just minutes.

We've all gone through this with Marriott reservations - miss the opening bell by even 15 seconds and your holiday plans just changed.

I'm assuming that Marriott will do the same on the announcement - the "pre-construction" pricing, if there is any, will be snapped up in minutes. The more scenarios we can imagine and review the more prepared we will be to make an informed decision.

Count on me to try to analyze the new product/scheme as soon as it is released and I hope to make a decision within minutes as to what this means to me and what opportunities and pitfalls await me.

That's all I'm doing here - and I imagine the tempo will increase substantially as the opening bell rings - those salesreps can't help themselves but blab what they learn. We have to run that through a filter of what we know about salesreps and try to understand the truth.

Customers deal with truth, salesreps deal with imagination.

Perry while I would agree that there is likely to be an opening special if this happens, it's unlikely to be gone in a few minutes, days or even weeks. Marriott needs a critical mass and the best way to get it is to convert as many people as possible early on. Ultimately we all have to look at any program that's rolled out and make decisions, in my case there's a good chance I'd convert 4 or 5 weeks but not all 9 if the program is appealing. I think it's also very possible that the first price is not the best price/option. The questions to me aside from the specifics of the points program itself, will be whether you have to pay a closing cost on each unit converted and whether you have to purchase additional points to secure the conversion.

I think it's reasonable to assume that any points program that Marriott might tender will be a good one overall, the question that's more variable is whether getting into it as a current owner is worth the costs to convert. When I say costs, I'm referring to both money and what you're giving up. As noted, it's a certainty that even if the program is a good one and the conversion options reasonable, it will not be a great option for every person.

Here are a few situations where those looking to convert might lose in some ways.

• Off season owners may not get as many points as they think they should.
• Lower quality/demand resorts likewise might not get enough points.
• Those with special views might lose out on that guarantee.

OTOH, lower season owners would get options they don't currently have and they MIGHT get lower dues while those with more points might get higher dues.

 

[puckmanfl]

Dean

Am I understanding you correctly? I believe that you are trying to tell me that If I convert to "points" my MF's will probably rise and the inventory in the "points" pool will most likely be skewed too "low demand" "low view". Why would any plat or high demand owner even consider this plan???

 

[SMB1]

Ritz-Carlton (RC) is a Destination Club (DC) and if Marriott is to become a DC then we are all doomed.

Remember Glum from Gulliver's Travels?

 

[Dean]

Dean

Am I understanding you correctly? I believe that you are trying to tell me that If I convert to "points" my MF's will probably rise and the inventory in the "points" pool will most likely be skewed too "low demand" "low view". Why would any plat or high demand owner even consider this plan???

Overall a point system is more expensive to operate than a floating weeks system so ultimately fees have to rise, the question is how much and how to divide them between all the members. And that's likely true even for those that don't convert once a significant number of people have. For sold out resorts where one must rely on conversion to get inventory, it's very likely that the inventory will be skewed to lower demand times and view UNLESS they give you the option of keeping your week or getting the points as BG and Hyatt (I believe) do. However that method would further reduce the high season or better view options for low season/lower view converters. The issue with Marriott is how to cont the floating season system once a significant number of people have converted. It's possible they could revert to the fixed underlying week of the deed which would put additional pressures on many to convert, myself included. Though all 5 of my HH weeks are good weeks, they are not the same week and I use them for a family trip about EOY where i get multiple units in one week.

 

[SueDonJ]

Overall a point system is more expensive to operate than a floating weeks system so ultimately fees have to rise, the question is how much and how to divide them between all the members. And that's likely true even for those that don't convert once a significant number of people have. For sold out resorts where one must rely on conversion to get inventory, it's very likely that the inventory will be skewed to lower demand times and view UNLESS they give you the option of keeping your week or getting the points as BG and Hyatt (I believe) do. However that method would further reduce the high season or better view options for low season/lower view converters. The issue with Marriott is how to cont the floating season system once a significant number of people have converted. It's possible they could revert to the fixed underlying week of the deed which would put additional pressures on many to convert, myself included. Though all 5 of my HH weeks are good weeks, they are not the same week and I use them for a family trip about EOY where i get multiple units in one week.

How is this possible, if the governing docs of the unconverted floating weeks stipulate that the week number in the deed is not a guaranteed period of use, that usage is based on a floating season subject to compliance with the reservation procedures? How have the other timeshare companies that have done weeks-to-points conversions managed to negate the governing docs of the sold weeks? What's in the Marriott governing docs that would allow such a thing?

(Just checked my deeds - Gold 40 and 41, Plat 31 - I would NOT be a happy camper.)

 

[yumdrey]

Overall a point system is more expensive to operate than a floating weeks system so ultimately fees have to rise, the question is how much and how to divide them between all the members.

Dean, on what based you can define that?
I own Worldmark (pure point based system) and Hilton (deeded, but also point based system), but they have the most reasonable MF among all my TS.
Maybe converting weeks system to point system will cost money, but that's why Marriott would charge customers one time joining fee at the beginning if that ever happen.
I don't think point system will rise MF compared to weeks system.

 

[PerryM]

The week ahead is going to be very busy for me so I'm out of here for now.

What started as a simply Red-Week type of exchange system that simply "Sits on top" of the existing week system has morphed into a Destination Club with confiscation of the deeds - there are so many alternatives that I've presented my theories until the next tidbit of rumor.

Unless there is a truly outstanding rumor floated I'm finished with this thread. If someone really needs to ask me a question, PM me.

Have fun...

 

[Dean]

How is this possible, if the governing docs of the unconverted floating weeks stipulate that the week number in the deed is not a guaranteed period of use, that usage is based on a floating season subject to compliance with the reservation procedures? How have the other timeshare companies that have done weeks-to-points conversions managed to negate the governing docs of the sold weeks? What's in the Marriott governing docs that would allow such a thing?

(Just checked my deeds - Gold 40 and 41, Plat 31 - I would NOT be a happy camper.)

My 5 weeks Plat at HH are two 25's, 28, 30 & 31. I'd have to review the POS to be more certain about this issue and don't have the time to do so but I'm convinced that they could limit you to your exact week IF they so chose. If I convert my weeks, you're removing the week in question for that week's inventory. Given the current system that would be good for those that don't convert if they leave the system in place for that group.

Dean, on what based you can define that?
I own Worldmark (pure point based system) and Hilton (deeded, but also point based system), but they have the most reasonable MF among all my TS.
Maybe converting weeks system to point system will cost money, but that's why Marriott would charge customers one time joining fee at the beginning if that ever happen.
I don't think point system will rise MF compared to weeks system.

I can't speak to the specifics of either but if you add up the total fees for the resorts for the year I'm sure you'll find more costs compared to similar resorts. The extra housekeeping, extra full time resort staff and extra housekeeping personnel have costs. That's not to say it has to be a lot more but there are inherent costs you can't get away from. DVC ties the fees to a given resort as does Marriott currently, BG averages the fees for current buyers over the entire system. BG also spreads any SA over the entire system.

 

[SueDonJ]

My 5 weeks Plat at HH are two 25's, 28, 30 & 31. I'd have to review the POS to be more certain about this issue and don't have the time to do so but I'm convinced that they could limit you to your exact week IF they so chose. If I convert my weeks, you're removing the week in question for that week's inventory. Given the current system that would be good for those that don't convert if they leave the system in place for that group.

Anything is possible, I guess, but I'd have to see the justification for Marriott implementing a change from floating to fixed weeks for current owners who do not choose to convert to any points system, in order to believe the possibility. Especially as at the time of purchase, Marriott does not make a choice of certain week(s) available to owners - they make it quite clear that the week/unit numbers on the deed are irrelevant to what's being purchased, i.e. a floating weeks system, beyond seasonal/villa type usage. I remember one person in one of these discussions said that s/he specifically asked for a certain week "just in case" but that's the only instance I've heard of it.

 

[Tommy_Boy]

The view from here...

From a newbie who has been viewing TUG BBS for a few weeks (and I'm joining TUG soon, as soon as I hear back that I passed through Marriott's ROFR for my Platinum Aruba week!) I gotta say, this thread, the gloom n' doom, etc. appears semi-hysterical --- I could have read many of the same posts, near-verbatim, 3 or 4 YEARS ago....yet nothing has changed. And someone posted recently that Marriott re-upped with II for at least another few years, too!

If wagering were legal, my wager will be June will come and go, and NOTHING will change. Perhaps I'll be wrong. But as someone who's just arrived, and having viewed the historical perspective through the posts, I think this whole thread may be an entertaining way for you guys to pass some time, but ultimately, moot, at least for the foreseeable future.

Cheers,

Tommy_Boy

 

[billymach4]

From a newbie who has been viewing TUG BBS for a few weeks (and I'm joining TUG soon, as soon as I hear back that I passed through Marriott's ROFR for my Platinum Aruba week!) I gotta say, this thread, the gloom n' doom, etc. appears semi-hysterical --- I could have read many of the same posts, near-verbatim, 3 or 4 YEARS ago....yet nothing has changed. And someone posted recently that Marriott re-upped with II for at least another few years, too!

If wagering were legal, my wager will be June will come and go, and NOTHING will change. Perhaps I'll be wrong. But as someone who's just arrived, and having viewed the historical perspective through the posts, I think this whole thread may be an entertaining way for you guys to pass some time, but ultimately, moot, at least for the foreseeable future.

Cheers,

Tommy_Boy

Way to go Tommy Boy.....
I am with you all the way.

 

[dougp26364]

The week ahead is going to be very busy for me so I'm out of here for now.

What started as a simply Red-Week type of exchange system that simply "Sits on top" of the existing week system has morphed into a Destination Club with confiscation of the deeds - there are so many alternatives that I've presented my theories until the next tidbit of rumor.

Unless there is a truly outstanding rumor floated I'm finished with this thread. If someone really needs to ask me a question, PM me.

Have fun...

It's only morphed in some of our minds. Nothing official has been released yet. This is like fearing what's behind a closed door. It could be a huge monster waiting to devour us all or it could be a tiny kitten. It's only been our imagination that's run wild. I don't count salesmens rumors as substantial information to work from.

 

[dougp26364]

From a newbie who has been viewing TUG BBS for a few weeks (and I'm joining TUG soon, as soon as I hear back that I passed through Marriott's ROFR for my Platinum Aruba week!) I gotta say, this thread, the gloom n' doom, etc. appears semi-hysterical --- I could have read many of the same posts, near-verbatim, 3 or 4 YEARS ago....yet nothing has changed. And someone posted recently that Marriott re-upped with II for at least another few years, too!

If wagering were legal, my wager will be June will come and go, and NOTHING will change. Perhaps I'll be wrong. But as someone who's just arrived, and having viewed the historical perspective through the posts, I think this whole thread may be an entertaining way for you guys to pass some time, but ultimately, moot, at least for the foreseeable future.

Cheers,

Tommy_Boy

I think you're pretty accurate in your assessment. I just wish Marriott would do something soon because the rumors keep larger and the monster keeps getting bigger.

I think that Marriott will do something eventually and, I think the odds of it being this June are better than they've ever been. It it doesn't happen, I'm still a happy little camper as I've learned how to work the existing system to get what we want. Our wants are relatively small and it's worked out excellent for us.

If they do make an announcement on June 17th, I look forward to seeing what new toys Marriott is offering us to play with. Maybe it will be something of great value, maybe we'll want to stick with our weeks the way they are now.

I'll say one thing and that is it must be terrible stress to buy a resale week on the cheap with the one purpose of exchanging into nicer more expensive units, then having to see monsters in every corner just waiting to take your candy away from you. I'm not sure I could deal with that sort of unnecessary stress in my life. Timeshare ownership should be about enjoyment. One should not have to spend so much energy and time worrying about something that may not happen or, if it does happen, may not be a bad thing at all.

I think if it bothered me that much, I'd sell my weeks and get out of timeshare. Renting would be a much more stress free environment. But then again, I'm not trying to work a system and be as cheap as humanly possible while still enjoying a particular level of comfort. I find it easier to buy what I want and live a little more stress free.

 

[JimIg23]

As long as I can continue to reserve summer NCV weeks and holidays in Orlando, I will be happy with my deeded weeks whatever they do. If they play with the inventory and make it impossible to get a summer NCV week with my deeded week, I will have to get out if I can..... If most Tuggers followed the rule "buy where you want to go" most of us will be fine.

 

[SueDonJ]

Well sure it's possible that June will come and go with absolutely no changes, but I think the probability of something being changed in the near future is much higher than its been at any time over the years that this new internal exchange system has been discussed. It doesn't appear now that we're dealing with the same vague sort of rumors that have been around for years - on top of the leaked information being more detailed than it's ever been and more of it coming from non-sales staff Marriott employees, more than one person has heard of the actual training sessions being scheduled.

I don't see where this discussion shouldn't be happening at all, though. Why not? Some of us want to look at all angles before the fact, some want to deny it's even being considered at all until Marriott makes it official, one seems to want to prepare himself and the rest of us for the absolute worst. Eh, it's all just thinking out loud ...

 

[AceValenta]

As we all sit here and speculate of what will be and what won't be, there should be one simple question, "Where did we hear about the June deadline and the internal trade system other than the Tug Boards?"

I would suspect 90% would answer a sales person or sales presentation. None of this was put in writing at the time. Face it, they are there to sell and they will use every sales tactic, including stretching the truth.

Even if they do roll out this internal system, I have a feeling that those of us who stay on the deeded week system will benefit with II. Now the resorts may not be Marriott but we could still pull some pretty strong traders.

BTW..... My rumor mongering came from a sales person!

I look forward to June and beyond. If there are changes, I have enjoyed my ride and the trades that I have received paid for the price of both my timeshares. The rest is just icing on the cake from here on out. My wife and my kids will continue many travels around the globe, Marriott or not. I think the money we spend on vacations at a Marriott resorts and what others spend will be missed.

 

[dougp26364]

Well sure it's possible that June will come and go with absolutely no changes, but I think the probability of something being changed in the near future is much higher than its been at any time over the years that this new internal exchange system has been discussed. It doesn't appear now that we're dealing with the same vague sort of rumors that have been around for years - on top of the leaked information being more detailed than it's ever been and more of it coming from non-sales staff Marriott employees, more than one person has heard of the actual training sessions being scheduled.

I don't see where this discussion shouldn't be happening at all, though. Why not? Some of us want to look at all angles before the fact, some want to deny it's even being considered at all until Marriott makes it official, one seems to want to prepare himself and the rest of us for the absolute worst. Eh, it's all just thinking out loud ...

No problem with a discussion. It's just that it often seems to border on hysteria that the end is near. Doom is hanging over our heads. The timeshare world according to Marriott is coming to an end. That sort of talk is what bothers me the most.

I understand that we could see a deeded weeks that convert to points or a trust based ownership where no one has a home resort. I have no problem with that sort of discussion. But this stuff that Marriott is going down the drain or that Marriott is on the verge of insolvency and is desperate is a little to the extreme.

As mentioned before, it you own a week at a resort you enjoy in a season you enjoy being there, what can you possibly lose? You have deeded rights that Marriott won't be taking away. This is just another option that will work great for some, won't work at all for others and will leave a few sitting on the fence.

Now, if you bought a lower value week at a resort you have no intention of going to in the season you own with the sole purpose of trading into high end, high season resorts and you've been bragging all along about how smart you are and how dumb everyone else is, maybe that gravy train is coming to an end.

 

[m61376]

I think the most important part of this discussion, at least for me, besides giving me an excuse to waste some time , is that if Marriott actually does roll out a program I think I know a lot more now and am better equipped to evaluate it.

While I don't feel it will be a 1 day transient period like Perry suggested, it is possible that a new program may have some initial sign on incentives to get the ball rolling, whether they be a lower price, some bonus points, or some other offer, and it MAY be to our advantage to be able to make a decision within the first few weeks of the offering, if there is one.

Putting aside the doomsday type scenarios, I think the multitude of posts have covered most if not all of the potential issues with a points program, especially how it might impact our underlying ownership.

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning...

This has been a wonderful thread!!!!

Sometime soon a decision will need to be made. Hopefully, because of the informed, logical and emotional "posts" we will all be better equipped to make an "informed" decision.

I have learned so much. Now I understand LP (Linear Progression), "deeds", "trusts", RTU's etc. There have been valuable experiences from MVCI owners who can bring their experiences from other systems to the equation. The daily "Perry Posts" while awash in passion, have some insight as well. The more controlled logical posts of Doug, Dean and Sue are appreciated as well. I feel bad for many of the "uninformed" non TUGggers out there, that will get a notice about all of this and say "huh". There are sales reps as we speak, are conducting business as usual to unsuspecting customers, that have no clue a major "paradigm" shift is coming!!!

My only concern regarding this thread seems to be an underlying resentment towards "exchangers" who up-trade. I am going to have to side with Perry on this one. In a perfect world, all owners would purchase to "occupy" at their "dream" resort in-season. The beauty of the system is that it is great for "occupiers" AND exchangers. If Perry, can get a "primo" unit for his Gold Summit I say good for him. Please keep in mind that any unit available on "uptrade" has been deposited (not used) by an owner. It has to make it through the II system. If a Plat week gets thru to a gold exchanger, it means that no "higher" bids were placed on it. IF a unit is in "Flexchange", it has essentially cleared "waivers" There is nothing immoral or evil here. I have plat weeks that I love to occupy, but I also love "locking off" and trying to upgrade. Sometimes, travel plans need to be varied. It is fun putting those units in the system and trying to "live the dream"...

My point is that the system as it is is great for occupiers, exchangers and point generators. I am hopeful that new system will ENHANCE, not HINDER ALL owners. I even hope that resale owners are welcome. I CHOSE to purchase from the developer with an informed decision but I see how resale is great as well and I respect those that moved in this direction!!!!

I hope Perry doesn't work too hard this week and comes back soon!!!

 

[AwayWeGo]

Record-Setting TUG-BBS Discussion Topic ?

This could be just about the longest & most participated-in TUG-BBS discussion topic yet that's based on sheer speculation.

( Frivolous topics like toilet paper rotation & boiled pizza & comical typefaces, etc., don't count -- not that there's anything wrong with those. )

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[dougp26364]

While there's a lot of speculation, I'm not sure you can say it's based on sheer speculation. There is decent evidence that something will happen in the near future. The speculation is relegated to what that change might be.

While I might think it's not a good idea to get overly dramatic about and potential change. I do think it's good to discuss the different types of exchange systems that are in existance today. Having a good general knowledge of those systems will give those who have followed this rather long thread the basis for asking good questions when it comes time to discuss their options.

For the record, I have nothing against trading up. I do it with my Ocean Pointe studio week and our 1 bedroom lock-out at Grand Chateau. At issue in my mind is the risk one takes when buying a unit strictly to exchange. The rules for exchange change frequently. That makes owning a unit strictly for exchange risky business. I can site many system changes I've seen in the last 12 years and my opinion is it's best to own something you can use or, you better have an exit plan when what you own no longer works for you.

Our original timeshare purchase was Polo Towers and we bought it to use. However, over time, they became strictly exchange weeks. I was almost to the point of selling them when DRI bought Sunterra and introduced their points program to Polo Towers owners. All of the sudden, those units became more valuable and more useful to us. Sometimes change is a very GOOD thing.

I own a week in Branson we bought to use but, we've been exchanging it instead. Mostly because when I search, I find what I consider good up trades. If I can't find those exchanges we're perfectly content to use the week. Eventually, we'll get tired of it and/or we won't be able to get the exchanges we want. In the back of my mind I have a value for that unit and, when I don't get that value I have an exit plan.

You can NOT buy something today and expect that things will never change. Things change frequently and the knowledgable timeshare owner understands this. There are things one can do to lessen the impact of change. One of those is to buy a timeshare you're willing to use or, buy one that has value to the larger group of potential exchangers. Either you'll have something you can use and value it for that reason or, you'll have something that's probably valuabel enough to others that you'll be able to get decent exchanges. If you buy a throw away week striclty to trade up you have to be ready to throw away that week if the rules change and it's of no use to you anymore.

 

[PaulN]

I haven't tuned in a for a while on this thread, but from what I'm reading it looks like Marriott's system will be similar to the system they are using with their Ritz brand of timeshares.

They had contacted us, like many of you I'm sure, back last year to see about trading in our week and buying into the Ritz system. It was all points based with "examples" of vacation packages with the number of points you would buy.

Mostly because it was a Ritz product, I assume, it was too expensive but in addition, we prefer the current MVC system over the points.

 

[davidvel]

Depending on my decision I will either be in the new "points" currency": or remain in the "weeks" currency with II. At the time my decision is made, I will have no idea how much inventory will be in either system as I have no idea (just guesswork) as how the other owners are choosing...
Do I have it correct???

Not unless the CCRs at your resort are amended (which cannot be done by Marriott.)

All of the inventory originally comes from the HOA the way it always has. That "inventory" doesn't change. If you don't "get with the program" you still have the right to reserve as you always have out of ALL the weeks in your season.

(This does not address Perry's theory that Marriott will steal weeks or otherwise rig the reservation system to give an advantage to its program, all of which would violate the CCRs and your rights as an owner.)

 

[dioxide45]

Not unless the CCRs at your resort are amended (which cannot be done by Marriott.)

This is why I think any system if it is ever introduced will be a pure point overlay system. Marriott will always sell weeks, except at perhaps new resorts.

 

[tlwmkw]

dioxide,

I agree- most of the resorts are sold out, or almost sold out, and it would be a nightmare (as well as extremely expensive) to re-do all the deeds, and it would be almost impossible to re-write the governing documents. What will be interesting will be how they handle the newer resorts and sales.

tlwmkw