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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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dougp26364

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Doug- I was wondering- in the system you mentioned where there were converted point weeks and where others retained their week ownership- how did that impact the MF's? IF Plat. week owners get more points than Bronze week owners (which probably is a given) and IF MF's are charged per point, that Plat. owner that converted to points would be paying more than the Bronze week owner, and theoretically the Plat. week owner's MF's would rise and the Bronze week owner's decrease. What about the Plat. or Bronze week owner that chooses not to convert? What happens to their MF's- can you have a situation where a converted Plat. week pays more than a non-converted Plat. week and a converted Bronze week pays less than a non-converted Bronze week? The MF issue is I guess my biggest concern when a new program is superimposed on an old.

I am not saying that point based systems don't have their merits- just that superimposing one on a functioning system may be fraught with issues.

The HOA still sets the MF's. It doesn't matter if you own a deeded week that was converted to points or a deeded week that wasn't converted to points. they all pay the same MF.

The trust based ownership is different. In the trust based points system, all of the MF's from all weeks deposited into the trust are added together, then divided by the total number of points to get the cost per point. The advantage is that the MF's are supposed to be diluted and you pay an average of all the resorts in the trust.

I don't see Marriott going to a trust based ownership but, I haven't seen their idea of a points based internal exchange program. I suppose it is a possiblity but, mentioning is likely to set some off on a tangent never before seen on TUG.

What you're talking about most resembles the Hilton system. That is were all two bedroom owners pay the same MF regardless of what season they own. A two bedroom Gold season recieves 5,000 points yet a 2 bedroom Platinum season recieves 7,000 points. Both own a 2 bedroom unit and both pay the same MF for their 2 bedroom unit.

The difference is in the sales price. It for this reason that it's usually recomended that you only consider platinum weeks on the resale market since you'll be paying the same MF regardless of how many points you buy. A bronze, gold and platinum 2 bedroom units MF's are the same no matter what the point total.

Marriott already does this with most of their timeshares. My 3 bedroom Silver season week at Ocean Pointe has the same MF's that the Platinum owner pays. The only difference is that the property taxes are divided up a little differently. As a Silver season owner, I pay a lower amount of the property taxes than does a Platinum owner.

Of course I paid several thousand less up front to buy that Silver season week. I expect that because I own a silver season week it will have fewer points alloted than the Platinum week. When you think about it, Interval gives those Silver season weeks lower trade power than Platinum weeks right now anyway. It's not like I'm losing anything from the way it stands now.
 

dougp26364

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I must be either really naive, really lucky, or living in some alternate universe! Because during our sales presentations we specifically asked about any differences between the Marriott-direct and external-resale products, both what was current and what could be in the future. We wanted to get those answers!

And as unbelievable as it sounds, our rep was completely honest in her answers! "Currently only the ability to exchange for MRP, in the future only what isn't specifically prohibited by the contracts but I don't know of anything in the pipeline." (And of course, some related stuff about how she had been able to take some "fantabulous!" trips with MRP, and the current values at the time for MRP, and the fact that the MRP points were set and the MRP exchange option wasn't guaranteed for the life of the ownership - but nothing there either that turned out to be a lie.)

Why shouldn't the reps say if something is in the pipeline? I understand they shouldn't lie, that's a given, but why shouldn't they be able to say today that Marriott is and has been strongly considering an internal exchange system which may impact weeks on the resale market more than weeks available from the developer? Yes, it will potentially scare off somebody who rightly thinks, "why in my right mind would I buy ANYthing before this is either tabled or rolled out?!" But if it's the truth, and at this point it does seem to be a strong consideration, it may also potentially lead any buyers back to Marriott when/if it's rolled out and the buyer realizes that a developer week will have more usage value than a resale week for his/her vacationing needs. I want that honesty from the sales reps (not the lies and exaggerations that hurt the product,) and don't want them to simply say nothing about all this and try to sell as if nothing big might be happening. That's as dishonest, IMO.

Or maybe Perry just brings out the worst in salesmen with his confrontational attitude. Since he won't let go of his dirty Marriott agent attitude, sometimes it's best just to play along. ;)

For the record, I've had very good luck with Marriott reps. Like I said in an earlier post, I have overheard some Marriott reps laying it on pretty thick. Like you maybe I've just been lucky. I usually leave the R word at home though. I almost always find that I know more about the product than the salesmen. It's been a long time since they've been able to show me a new trick I didn't know.
 

dougp26364

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Just you remember that you, the Marriott owner, is Marriott's worst nightmare.

I think it's your confrontational attitude with timeshare salesmen that gets you all worked up in the first place. If owners are Marriott's worst nightmare then why to they keep trying to increase the number of owners?
 

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Big guns...

I think it's your confrontational attitude with timeshare salesmen that gets you all worked up in the first place. If owners are Marriott's worst nightmare then why to they keep trying to increase the number of owners?

I have the power to sell Marriott timeshares - I don't need to be a real estate agent nor do I need any state sponsored credentials - I can simply list my Gold Summit Watch on eBay and sell it for a fraction of what the salesrep can sell it for. Then hire a closing firm to handle paperwork and escrow for a few hundred dollars - simple as pie.

I am a competitor of Marriott.

Now I can only do it once for the one week I own but multiply that by 250,000+ Marriott owners and Marriott is out-gunned.

Marriott is so consumed with hatred towards resales that they have spread rumors for 4+ years and are cooking up an exchange system to punish resales.

It's all about resales or the rumors wouldn't mention us.

I believe Marriott's rumors - they are building a huge weapon to take on the resale market. Especially if they aren't building new resorts and need to buy low priced resales - it all makes sense.

So yes, Marriott fears their owners...
 

m61376

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The trust based ownership is different. In the trust based points system, all of the MF's from all weeks deposited into the trust are added together, then divided by the total number of points to get the cost per point. The advantage is that the MF's are supposed to be diluted and you pay an average of all the resorts in the trust.

I don't see Marriott going to a trust based ownership but, I haven't seen their idea of a points based internal exchange program. I suppose it is a possiblity but, mentioning is likely to set some off on a tangent never before seen on TUG.

The only reason I've been bringing this up is it's exactly what Marriott did with the Asia Pacific program. I have no knowledge, of course, that any plan (IF there is any program) will resemble that program, but Fletch did mention a points based program and that there wouldn't be a home resort advantage for making reservations- which seems a bit like the Asia Pacific program.

The impact (if any) on MF's affects all owners, whether or not they elect to join any new system.
 

dougp26364

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I have the power to sell Marriott timeshares - I don't need to be a real estate agent nor do I need any state sponsored credentials - I can simply list my Gold Summit Watch on eBay and sell it for a fraction of what the salesrep can sell it for. Then hire a closing firm to handle paperwork and escrow for a few hundred dollars - simple as pie.

I am a competitor of Marriott.

Now I can only do it once for the one week I own but multiply that by 250,000+ Marriott owners and Marriott is out-gunned.

Marriott is so consumed with hatred towards resales that they have spread rumors for 4+ years and are cooking up an exchange system to punish resales.

It's all about resales or the rumors wouldn't mention us.

I believe Marriott's rumors - they are building a huge weapon to take on the resale market. Especially if they aren't building new resorts and need to buy low priced resales - it all makes sense.

So yes, Marriott fears their owners...

Trust me, Marriott is NOT quaking in fear of you and all the other owners. Owners are Marriott's best friend. That's why they continue to sell timeshares and increase the number of owners. Owners are not viewed as competitors because owner resales are not organized. Marriott does not fear owners wanting to sell in mass because they no that it's not going to happen. I don't believe that Marriott is consumed by hatered for any owner. I really think that's just your imagination overwhelming you.

It's not all about resales. It's all about making that next sale as far as the salesman is concerned. If running down resale purchases by telling you everything you can't do with it or that there might be changes less favorable to resale buyers, salesmen are typically going to try it. The agents, as you call them, of any timeshare developer are going to have some sort of line to try to discourage you from buying resale and buying a retail unit from them. I know Hilton does this and I know DRI has it's agruements against resale units. This is nothing new under the sun and Marriott isn't the evil empire for doing the same thing. You're making it sound as if Marriott is the only developer to use scare tactics to discourage resale purchases.

You're over estimating your worth and power as far as Marriott is concerned. In fact, I'm sure Marriott couldn't care less if you kept your one week of ownership purchased on the resale market or sold it to someone else.

Here's my predictions since we all seem to be in that frame of mind.

1. Marriott will come out with some sort of points based internal exchange sytem.

2. There will be some fee for current members to join. I'm thinking in the $500 to $1,000 range but it's just a guess.

3. Marriott will charge resale owners a slightly higher fee to join than those that bought from the developer. I'm thinking in the $1,500 to $3,000 range but it's just a guess

4. All new sales will be automatically placed in the new points program.

5. Those not seeing any benefit to joining the new points program may keep their weeks exactly as they are now.

6. Those that remain in the weeks based program will continue to exchange their weeks just as they have in the past.

7. Marriott will maintain the 24 day exclusive period for Marriott to Marriott weeks exchanges.

8. The internal exchange fee, if there is one, will be minimal and will certainly be less than the external exchange fee charged by Interval. My thoughts are that the fee's, if there are any, will be in the $50 to $75 range.

9. External Marriott to Marriott exchanges will continue to have a slightly lower fee than the normal Interval exchange fee but, it will be higher than the new internal points exchange fee.

10. The program will be attractive enough to get a significant number of owners to join.

It will be interesting to see how close I am to being right. I have nothing to really go on other than personal experience with HGVC's and DRI's points based systems. I don't see Marriott shooting themselves in the foot by alienating owners or putting out a program so unatractive no one once to join. Of course, I could be wrong. Marriott could self implode it's own product like Starwood seems to have done. That would really be a shame but, we did buy our timeshare to use and we were not concerned about the trade value.

The first rule of timeshare that I've learned over the years is that timeshare changes and evolves. It has to in order to keep up with the changes in our society. I can't imagine timeshare being as attractive as it is today if all developers sold were fixed week/fixed unit intervals. Extensive internal exchange systems and points based exchanges have become the new reality. That's just the way it is today. Who knows what it will be like in another 10 years.
 

dougp26364

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The only reason I've been bringing this up is it's exactly what Marriott did with the Asia Pacific program. I have no knowledge, of course, that any plan (IF there is any program) will resemble that program, but Fletch did mention a points based program and that there wouldn't be a home resort advantage for making reservations- which seems a bit like the Asia Pacific program.

The impact (if any) on MF's affects all owners, whether or not they elect to join any new system.

You have to remember that the HOA at each resort is responsible for setting the MF's. Marriott is only the management company. Marriott can be fired by the HOA/BOD. This was a possiblity recently at Beachplace Towers as the HOA and Marriott were not in agreement as to how much should be spent on renovations to the units.

Any impact on MF's will come from the HOA's and not Marriott. It would be difficult for Marriott to retrofit current owners into a trust based ownership rather than a deed base ownership but, I'm sure it could be done. After all, Sunterra managed to do this with their product. But then again, Sunterra went bankrupt.
 

PerryM

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Trust me, Marriott is NOT quaking in fear of you and all the other owners. Owners are Marriott's best friend. That's why they continue to sell timeshares and increase the number of owners. Owners are not viewed as competitors because owner resales are not organized. Marriott does not fear owners wanting to sell in mass because they no that it's not going to happen. I don't believe that Marriott is consumed by hatered for any owner. I really think that's just your imagination overwhelming you.

It's not all about resales. It's all about making that next sale as far as the salesman is concerned. If running down resale purchases by telling you everything you can't do with it or that there might be changes less favorable to resale buyers, salesmen are typically going to try it. The agents, as you call them, of any timeshare developer are going to have some sort of line to try to discourage you from buying resale and buying a retail unit from them. I know Hilton does this and I know DRI has it's agruements against resale units. This is nothing new under the sun and Marriott isn't the evil empire for doing the same thing. You're making it sound as if Marriott is the only developer to use scare tactics to discourage resale purchases.

You're over estimating your worth and power as far as Marriott is concerned. In fact, I'm sure Marriott couldn't care less if you kept your one week of ownership purchased on the resale market or sold it to someone else.

Here's my predictions since we all seem to be in that frame of mind.

1. Marriott will come out with some sort of points based internal exchange sytem.

2. There will be some fee for current members to join. I'm thinking in the $500 to $1,000 range but it's just a guess.

3. Marriott will charge resale owners a slightly higher fee to join than those that bought from the developer. I'm thinking in the $1,500 to $3,000 range but it's just a guess

4. All new sales will be automatically placed in the new points program.

5. Those not seeing any benefit to joining the new points program may keep their weeks exactly as they are now.

6. Those that remain in the weeks based program will continue to exchange their weeks just as they have in the past.

7. Marriott will maintain the 24 day exclusive period for Marriott to Marriott weeks exchanges.

8. The internal exchange fee, if there is one, will be minimal and will certainly be less than the external exchange fee charged by Interval. My thoughts are that the fee's, if there are any, will be in the $50 to $75 range.

9. External Marriott to Marriott exchanges will continue to have a slightly lower fee than the normal Interval exchange fee but, it will be higher than the new internal points exchange fee.

10. The program will be attractive enough to get a significant number of owners to join.

It will be interesting to see how close I am to being right. I have nothing to really go on other than personal experience with HGVC's and DRI's points based systems. I don't see Marriott shooting themselves in the foot by alienating owners or putting out a program so unatractive no one once to join. Of course, I could be wrong. Marriott could self implode it's own product like Starwood seems to have done. That would really be a shame but, we did buy our timeshare to use and we were not concerned about the trade value.

The first rule of timeshare that I've learned over the years is that timeshare changes and evolves. It has to in order to keep up with the changes in our society. I can't imagine timeshare being as attractive as it is today if all developers sold were fixed week/fixed unit intervals. Extensive internal exchange systems and points based exchanges have become the new reality. That's just the way it is today. Who knows what it will be like in another 10 years.

This is great! We shall see who guessed the best.

Remember that whatever the fee is to join, if it is even allowed, must be doubled since the resale owner pays it to join and when they sell their week the new buyer will demand the owner pay for it again (by way of reduced bid price) so the new owner can exchange their ownership with other owners.

Double whammy...
 

dougp26364

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Remember that whatever the fee is to join, if it is even allowed, must be doubled since the resale owner pays it to join and when they sell their week the new buyer will demand the owner pay for it again (by way of reduced bid price) so the new owner can exchange their ownership with other owners.

Double whammy...

Maybe, maybe not. Some of us actually buy a timeshare to use, not to exchange.

I won't argue that having an additional fee to join will likely hurt resale values. Knowing that there is an extra fee to pay, especially if it's significant, can't help resale values.

DRI's THE Club puts a similar hurdle in the path of resale buyers. Only with DRI, the reports I've seen lately indicate that one must buy developer inventory rather than pay the joiner fee of $2,995. It's considerably more expensive to buy developer inventory than pay the joiner fee.

I think almost every points based system puts some sort of hurdle in the way of resale buyers having full access. Hilton is proably the most relaxed in that the only thing resale buyers don't receive is Elite status for resale points.

Marriott could do like Hilton and treat resale buyers almost like developer buyers. I have to say it would surprise me if they did and, that's not something I'd predict. It's much safer to say that there will be differences in how resale and developer buyers are treated as far as joining any new system. That appears to be the trend of most systems that have converted to points based reservations systems.

I am anxious to see the new product. I'm not saying I'll be jumping for joy when it comes out but, I am curious about how it will work, how much it will cost (if anything) and what benefits there are that I might use. What I'm afraid of is, since we use our Ocean Pointe week every year and only use request first to exchange our Grand Chateau week, the cost won't be worth the benefits. Then again, the points offered for our Platinum two bedroom master suite may be sufficient to get us more than just a week for week exchange and I might be able to get even more value out of our ownership. Cost vs value, that's where the proof will be in any new system. To high of cost with to little value and the product will fail.

We do trade our studio Ocean Pointe week and our one bedroom lock-out week from our three bedroom Grand Chateau unit. So I do have a vested interest in what effect any changes will have on us. In my worst case scenario, well keep our units as they are now and seek exchanges through I.I. While I've enjoyed using the studio and one bedroom units to exchange for other Marriott properties and would hate to lose that ability, there are other quality resort systems out there that are worthy of exchanging into. I'll just have to change my thought process one more time to incorporate any new reality that comes my way.
 
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dougp26364

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How do you guys find the time to post so much? I can barely read through them all.

I can't speak for Perry but I don't have a life. :p
 

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I think almost every points based system puts some sort of hurdle in the way of resale buyers having full access. Hilton is proably the most relaxed in that the only thing resale buyers don't receive is Elite status for resale points.

What about DVC? Probably not coincidentally, it appears to be the most respected, has retained its value more than the other systems, and treats all owners as, well, valued customers who continue to support the product (by paying on going MF's) and spending money at their facilities while on vacation.

Hopefully Marriott will strive to follow the best rather than emulate the worst- as you said, Starwood appears to be imploding It is not merely due to the disparity between direct and resale purchases, but is at least partially related to having a two tier system.

I think a big issue here is that this is an "after the facts" system. Marriott is superimposing a system (IF it ever does develop the system) on a system that owners have mostly happily been using for years. It is one thing if it was starting anew, and people wouldn't be comparing it to what they had and perceived losses. I think it is a very different animal when you have owners who were enjoying privileges that may not have been specified contractual rights but were perceived as such.

I do agree with most of what you predicted, btw. Since we're postulating anyway, the only real difference I'd predict is the way they handle resales (and it's not merely a case of wishful thinking, because I don't necessarily think that part of this will be good for any owner, since all owners ultimately stand to lose because of devaluations and potentially MF defaults). It has always made sense to me that current resale owners be grandfathered- it is good for public relations, it is good to get more people on board (the more people join and get the ball rolling, the more successful the new program will be) and Marriott won't make any more sales off of these units anyway (and may get additional future sales from their happy owners).

While some owners of developer weeks might get perverse satisfaction from resale owners having to pay more, I personally believe the few dollars that Marriott might receive by making the buy-in a little higher for resale owners initially (and, if it is higher, I do believe the difference would be at most $1000 as Fletch suggested) would be outweighed by the ill will that would be generated. Again, while only 7% of all units are resales, since many people own both developer purchased and resale weeks, the percentage of owners being affected is likely considerably higher and worthwhile keeping happy as Marriott customers. Even without that, no company wants to alienate even 7% of its customers overnight; it just doesn't make good business sense.

I do think future resale owners will be charged a higher price, and I think it will be higher than 1K (although I would like it to be kept low). I think the price difference will depend on whether or not they charge a flat fee to convert (which is the simpler way of handling it) or a per point fee (more logistically difficult, but might make it more attractive for lower value weeks to join). The problem with the flat fee is that lower priced weeks (which likely will be awarded lower point values) would be just too expensive to join. That brings up the issue is what will happen to those weeks IF the internal trading system is successful. IF they are no longer deemed useful by their owners, will we have widespread forfeiture and defaults (look at Starwood) with escalating MF's to cover unpaid dues?

I also am sure that Marriott isn't doing any of this- IF they do do anything- out of the goodness of their heart. There certainly will be exchange fees, but presumably, at least initially, less than II's. And they will sell it as a one time fee to join rather than II's annual dues (neglecting to point out that if people still want to trade externally they'll have to join II anyway).

As for who will join- it depends upon the details. IF they don't retain home resort advantage (as Fletch suggested) I don't think even Platinum week owners will be running to join. People who bought where they like to go most of the time will want to continue their preference at their home resort. If they do, I suspect that the owners of those premium properties will be the first to convert, depending upon the way points are assigned. I think Gold week owners at most properties and lower seasons will be very reluctant to join. IF I am right, then then whole system can get stuck- because the only benefit to Plat. week owners (aside from trading to other Plat. properties) is to get more days at lower demand times- but if they're not part of the new system, they're not available to book. So that's a big issue.

The other issue- which I haven't seem brought up- is what impact will that new change in Reward categories have (if any)? Will Marriott be valuing the different Hawaii resorts differently in their timeshare points program as they do in their Rewards points program? When you look over that list, it does present an interesting view of how Marriott evaluates the demand for its own properties. Those category 7 owners may be at the top of the heap here and category 5 owners of some properties considered premium may find themselves falling a bit short.
 

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Here's my predictions since we all seem to be in that frame of mind.

1. Marriott will come out with some sort of points based internal exchange sytem.

2. There will be some fee for current members to join. I'm thinking in the $500 to $1,000 range but it's just a guess.

3. Marriott will charge resale owners a slightly higher fee to join than those that bought from the developer. I'm thinking in the $1,500 to $3,000 range but it's just a guess

4. All new sales will be automatically placed in the new points program.

5. Those not seeing any benefit to joining the new points program may keep their weeks exactly as they are now.

6. Those that remain in the weeks based program will continue to exchange their weeks just as they have in the past.

7. Marriott will maintain the 24 day exclusive period for Marriott to Marriott weeks exchanges.

8. The internal exchange fee, if there is one, will be minimal and will certainly be less than the external exchange fee charged by Interval. My thoughts are that the fee's, if there are any, will be in the $50 to $75 range.

9. External Marriott to Marriott exchanges will continue to have a slightly lower fee than the normal Interval exchange fee but, it will be higher than the new internal points exchange fee.

10. The program will be attractive enough to get a significant number of owners to join.

Doug,

I agree with your prediction almost point for point -- my only addition is that there has to be some "modest" annual fee to remain in the points program, like $89/year, to allow for Marriott to have a recurring revenue stream -- or perhaps this was your reference in #8 to the internal exchange fee. I do think it will be an annual fee not just a reservation fee so that even if you don't use your points (and bank them or borrow them) you still pay the fee.

Perry,

Your posts are always thought-provoking and often entertaining, but I suspect part of the frustration on this point is that you've mastered the ability to maximize the trade power of your Gold unit and Marriott's tinkering may jeopardize that. (And you've mastered Worldmark too, the knowledge from which has greatly benefited me! Thanks!).

I don't think Marriott ever intended to create a system that allowed someone to trade up so easily ---- especially without them being able to "dip their beak" in the successful trade.

Accordingly, I don't think they have it out for resale owners, we probably don't register much in their minds at all, except to the sales folks who detest resale as a competitor. But I think Marriott is trying to figure out how to get a more stable revenue stream out of the property base (which benefits them). Separately, they probably think this is an improvement and offering flexibility that they've probably gotten customer feedback on "boy I wish you had a points system". Finally, it is definitely a sales tool -- when on the HGVC tour, the sales person did not hesitate to emphasize to me that you can buy points in Vegas and trade to Big Island.

We will see -- I'm glad to own fixed weeks (though who knows what they are really worth) that are deeded -- and I believe properties with deeds will have greater value than points.

Thanks and good luck to all!
 

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... The other issue- which I haven't seem brought up- is what impact will that new change in Reward categories have (if any)? Will Marriott be valuing the different Hawaii resorts differently in their timeshare points program as they do in their Rewards points program? When you look over that list, it does present an interesting view of how Marriott evaluates the demand for its own properties. Those category 7 owners may be at the top of the heap here and category 5 owners of some properties considered premium may find themselves falling a bit short.

m, I dunno. I think what Heidi says about how point values are assigned in the MRP system - that they fluctuate based on how many redemptions are made so that high/low demand is reflected in the current MRP cost - doesn't really translate well to the MVCI model. That hotel system must make allowances for too many economic values that are independent of timesharing. For instance, during a depressed tourism industry like what we have now the timeshare folks are still trying their darndest to get to their resorts, while the typical hotel travelers are putting their vacations on hold.

I expect that the point values assigned to the MVCI resorts will correlate to the developer pricing structure (regardless of the resale market, which Marriott does not control,) m/f costs, and overall exchange demand (based on long-term tourism trends.) Simply, the more expensive weeks to own will probably have higher exchange point values. And yes, it will mean that the newer resorts will always have higher point values. I know that's a fear of some, that owning an older/less expensive week will not allow for an equal number of days in the newer/more expensive resorts, but that's how I expect it will work here. Honestly, it seems fair to me that my 2BR Barony week might only be able to exchange for 4 days into a 2BR at Maui, or 7 days in a studio at Maui, etc...

Heidi, you can put me in the No Life Camp, too. (Hi Doug!) It's busy season for Don so I'm a tax widow, and there aren't too many brides who think about lovely white dresses and bright fall days during the February doldrums. The spring brides get everything done before the winter holidays, but by late-March I'll have a life again.
 
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m61376

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Sue- To a certain degree, I'm guessing that the point assignment will reflect pricing, MF's perhaps and demand. I may be wrong, but I think initially how they have chosen to categorize the properties for Rewards points will be an indication of how they will rate the properties in a points system.

The reality that Marriott will likely assign more points to newer properties is a very real concern I think, because owners at older top rated, high demand properties, may be paying some of the highest MF's (Maui owners, for ex.) but may not have enough points to trade for like for like (size/length of stay) for Cancun when it comes on board, IF Marriott decides that offering it as a property having the most points would be a good sales tool. Of course, they might take the high road and not do that, but I don't have that much confidence in that happening.

I know you said you'd think it was fair to exchange (I'm assuming Gold) your Barony week for perhaps 4 days in Maui for a 2BR or a studio for a week. Out of curiosity- would you join and actively participate in a system where you knew that would be the trades you'd get? How do others feel about that?
 

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Ok - I'll play too. Here is my prediction:

I predict that, just like in 2007, 2008 and 2009, NOTHING will change this year...

Marriott has done many things correctly and seem to have their eye on the ball. The current system is a good one, Marriott owners are - on average - much happier than owners at other systems, and MF increases in 2010 have been relatively modest. Yes, we can point to some flaws like excessively long Platinum seasons at some resorts etc., but overall it's a pretty good system with a long and proven track record.

As I've pointed out earlier (and so has m61376) a points system is not necessarily a bad system. Despite opening the door for developers to skim off the top, there are other benefits and greater flexibility. In fact, I generally like my current Starwood ownership but I bought into it after I studied the system extensively and figured out what works best for my needs within the existing system. However, establishing a points system when they have ~500,000 owners who bought into a different weeks system has the potential to be a disaster. In my opinion, it would be a colossal mistake to do that and will create a very large number of unhappy owners (e.g. Gold/Silver/Bronze weeks who how get less than 7 days in Hawaii but now if they use II there are no good trades left - not to mention some Platinum owners, like Orlando, will be in a similar situation) with the potential for the entire system to implode upon itself.

IF such a system is being considered, I'm hopeful someone smart and high enough will put the brakes on it before it sees the light of day.
 
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How do you guys find the time to post so much? I can barely read through them all.
thank god for my Blackberry I am able to at least be one or two pages behind any given moment !!!

Perry and Doug - let's meet up over a nice BBQ say in July? I will buy both of you a beer (I don't drink).
 

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... I know you said you'd think it was fair to exchange (I'm assuming Gold) your Barony week for perhaps 4 days in Maui for a 2BR or a studio for a week. Out of curiosity- would you join and actively participate in a system where you knew that would be the trades you'd get? How do others feel about that?

Most important to me would be a home resort priority with no change in how weeks are now used when staying at a home resort; then the fee structure including initiation, annual and transaction fees; then flexchange-like short notice bargains - but yes, if I'm satisfied with those aspects then I would probably join and participate in an internal Marriott exchange system like DVC's. Honestly, I believe that the 7 days=7 days in II's system isn't always a good thing, when some owners have to consistently "trade down" in quality when exchanging (#BR, view type, or Hawaii for Virginia, for examples.) And in a DVC-like system, 7 days in a 2BR/Gold/OF could equal 4 or 7 or 10 days in a studio/1-2-or-3BR/any season/any view. I like that flexibility, think it would really open up travel options.

But I realize it won't work for everyone so I'm not saying here that I would expect everyone to be happy about and embrace the same thing. We'll all need to figure out how our individual ownership portfolios will work within any given new system. In our case, I would expect our SurfWatch weeks to overcome any loss inherent in our Barony week. Besides, we could still choose to put only certain weeks into the new system. :D
 

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... I predict that, just like in 2007, 2008 and 2009, NOTHING will change this year...

Ugh. I have no idea if anything will happen, but I hope so! Either roll out the system or table it, I don't care, just do something and make an announcement already.

Marriott has done many things correctly and seem to have their eye on the ball. The current system is a good one, Marriott owners are - on average - much happier than owners at other systems,

But isn't it possible to be happy with how things are now, be satisfied if they never change, while at the same time realizing that your ownership could be better than it is? I think so, because that's exactly where I am right now. I'll happily exchange in II forever if nothing ever changes because that's the only option, but it's not an ideal option.

{edit} Of course II isn't the ONLY option for trading, private exchanges will always be available, but I meant it's the "only option" Marriott offers now.
 
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SueDonJ

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It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them. m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has. The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined. Isn't it? The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort. So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?
 

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While I agree that flexibility is a very attractive option, and I can see the inherent "fairness" of giving a high cost, high MF property more for their trade, and a system akin to DVC's would hold a lot of attractions, what I question is whether the owners of lower cost/lower MF properties will sign on in bulk, and will they consider getting less than they are used to fair? As Fletch seemed to indicate, the system is likely not to be as attractive to these owners.

While it would be nice for your Platinum week (or mine) to get an extended stay at a property that would otherwise be considered "trading down," that means the owner of the "lesser" property has to be giving up his time. IF any new program fails to attract a broad spectrum of owners, there won't be enough points based "lesser" inventory for the premium Platinum owner to trade into. I think that's a big potential pitfall.

Not only for trading purposes, but for people still feeling they are getting value out of their ownership- enough to continue paying MF's- Marriott has to have a system that appeals to a broad spectrum of owners, in my opinion. Developing a program which will cater to the elite owners may be doomed to failure.

And then there is the issue is that this year's elite property may be relatively devalued as newer properties are developed, despite perhaps higher annual costs (MF's).

I don't know if there is a way to satisfy everyone after the fact, so to speak, because IF Marriott makes any changes it will be superimposing a new system on owners accustomed to an old system and, despite whatever perceived inequities there are in the current system, by and large everyone is chugging along complacently. I can only hope that the powers that be are considering many of the issues that have been brought up here.
 

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It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them. m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has. The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined. Isn't it? The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort. So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?

In theory it should be based on supply and demand. My guess is IF something does come out old resorts will be based on this. In practice, the developer can set it to whatever they want to create more sales, especially at new resorts. That is why at Starwood summer (Gold) Harborside and St. John owners (MFs $3000+ for a 2BR) can't trade to a similar size unit in Cancun (MFs less than $1500 for a 2BR), where summer is "Platinum". They can tell Cancun buyers that they can go for 2 weeks to the Carribean (of course they omit the part that Carribean owners are not necessarily happy to exchange internally and inventory is iffy)
 

m61376

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It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them. m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has. The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined. Isn't it? The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort. So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?

I don't think Marriott is going to set point valuations at any given resort based on MF's. Personally, I think demand is going to be the primary consideration and perhaps perhaps developer's pricing. Personally, I'm guessing that the point allocations will follow the lines of the Reward points categories, except that it will be further subdivided by season. IF I was venturing a guess, Marriott would look at the average charge for each villa during the weeks of the season. It has already figured out rental rates, so really has a working calculation of relative worth. I'm guessing the point valuation will be based on some formulation of the average rack rates Marriott is already charging.

The reason I think this is because really selling prices also reflect both the area and the time period of development, and not necessarily the desirability. Older resorts cost less to build, and hence have had lower selling prices, so the pricing does not necessarily reflect the demand. Neither, as you pointed out, do MF's. What Marriott charges as a rental rate, however, does, and it is already a formula that's in place and easy to apply.

My issue with MF's is how a new system would impact fees. Certainly, IF home resort advantage is obliterated (as in the Asia Pacific program) that clearly becomes a big issue. The other is that a valid argument could be made from owners of higher MF resorts IF they weren't happy with their new trade power, or lower season owners paying high MF's no longer getting a week in trade for their ownership. I think that's where MF's become a concern.
 

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In theory it should be based on supply and demand. My guess is IF something does come out old resorts will be based on this. In practice, the developer can set it to whatever they want to create more sales, especially at new resorts. That is why at Starwood summer (Gold) Harborside and St. John owners (MFs $3000+ for a 2BR) can't trade to a similar size unit in Cancun (MFs less than $1500 for a 2BR), where summer is "Platinum". They can tell Cancun buyers that they can go for 2 weeks to the Carribean (of course they omit the part that Carribean owners are not necessarily happy to exchange internally and inventory is iffy)

... The other is that a valid argument could be made from owners of higher MF resorts IF they weren't happy with their new trade power, or lower season owners paying high MF's no longer getting a week in trade for their ownership. I think that's where MF's become a concern.

Do people now consider the m/f when determining if they're getting value with an exchange? I dunno, that's why I'm asking. :shrug:

We just pick where we want to go, deposit our week and hope for the best. It hasn't ever occurred to me that success might depend on the m/f costs of the deposited/requested resorts, or that we're trading down if the resort we get in a trade has lower m/f than the one we deposited.
 
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