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Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

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m61376

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Do people now consider the m/f when determining if they're getting value with an exchange? I dunno, that's why I'm asking. :shrug:

We just pick where we want to go, deposit our week and hope for the best. It hasn't ever occurred to me that success might depend on the m/f costs of the deposited/requested resorts, or that we're trading down if the resort we get in a trade has lower m/f than the one we deposited.

I don't, but there are lots of posts referencing how trading a high MF resort for a lower MF one is considered trading down. That is one barometer people use when considering the value they are getting from trading.

Personally- I agree- if I can get what I want when I want it, it's a good trade. Of course, if I can get something bigger than I deposited, I feel like I've gotten more value for my money.
 

rsackett

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I bet Marriott will set points based on selling price. This would make the new program seem the fairest to new retail buyers.

Ray
 

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I bet Marriott will set points based on selling price. This would make the new program seem the fairest to new retail buyers.

Ray

WHAT selling price?? Actual price paid? Pre-construction price? Marriott list price? 20% off Marriott list price (what they are selling at currently):confused:
That could be complicated as well as the other ideas people are suggesting..:ponder:
 

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I did not mean an exact selling price, I think it would loosly follow how much Marriott sells weeks for. MMC sells retail for about 20k plat. Marco Island about 3 times that much. I bet Marco gets about 3 times the points as MMC. I am sure that my guess is worth about what you paid to get it (actual purchase price ;) )

Ray
 

SueDonJ

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I did not mean an exact selling price, I think it would loosly follow how much Marriott sells weeks for. MMC sells retail for about 20k plat. Marco Island about 3 times that much. I bet Marco gets about 3 times the points as MMC. I am sure that my guess is worth about what you paid to get it (actual purchase price ;) )

Ray

That's what I expect, too, that the developer price will be the barometer. Or at least, it appears to be the simplest way to convert from weeks to points, because the developer price structure already takes into account the views/#BR/seasons within a resort, as well as the quality differences between resorts. Perhaps to be most fair, they'll use the price structure that was in place when the highest prices were paid by owners (and maybe adjust for inflation so that all the figures they use are based on current dollars?)
 
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GregT

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I bet Marriott will set points based on selling price. This would make the new program seem the fairest to new retail buyers.

Ray

This would be consistent with what my sales rep told me about the points system -- his comment was that I could due to an equity trade and 100% of my purchase price would be applied to the points purchase. He also didn't think it would have a home resort. But, we are speculating.
 

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I agree with this also, the Marriott purchase price per week will drive the amount of points one gets. Those who paid more will get more points. But the next question is: will the amount of points for each resort be different (within the same season). I believe this also will be different. A Platinum Hawaii week will be more points than an platinum Orlando week. If they are going to do this in June, I hope they start telling people soon.
 

dougp26364

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Doug,

I agree with your prediction almost point for point -- my only addition is that there has to be some "modest" annual fee to remain in the points program, like $89/year, to allow for Marriott to have a recurring revenue stream -- or perhaps this was your reference in #8 to the internal exchange fee. I do think it will be an annual fee not just a reservation fee so that even if you don't use your points (and bank them or borrow them) you still pay the fee.


Good point and one I hadn't thought about. Both points based sytems we're in have an annual membership but, both also include the membership fee's for Interval or RCI. I believe HGVC's membership fee amounts to $79/yr and is included in the annual MF's. DRI's annual fee's are $235/yr and are billed seperately.

With Hilton, there are additional fee's when you make an internal exchange. With DRI, all internal exchanges are covered by the larger annual fee. Which is better just depends on whether you make a lot of internal exchanges or just a few.

Both actually work for us. Hilton has very few locations for internal exchanges, thus we don't make a lot of exchanges within their system. So ala carte pricing works well for us with Hilton. DRI offers over 100 possibility's for internal exchange, one of which is within driving distance to us. We tend to make more exchanges internally with DRI and, by not having to pay Intervals exchange fee's, I reconcile the cost savings on a per exchange basis. After only two internal exchanges I've covered DRI's higher membership fee.

For Marriott to charge a membership fee then the Interval International membership fee should be a part of that. Otherwise it would be one more strike against the program for people who have purchased and use their home resort.

If Marriott does have a membership fee and if it does include the annual Interval International membership fee for Marroitt owners, it will present me with something of a delima. That will leave me just one small timeshare in Branson that is outside of any system. Originally we bought it to use but, situations changed and it turned out to be a reasonably good exchange week for the price. I'm not sure that it will be that great of an exchange week if it's the only week I have with Interval and I'm having to pay a $89 membership fee plus $139 in exchange fee's plus the MF just to have a week we use for exchange. At this point, the week really isnt' necessary but, I've hung onto it because I've done very well exchanging it.
 

dougp26364

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It occurs to me that maybe we're looking at m/f all wrong here, with respect to how much an exchange points value should correlate to them. m/f are set according to the costs necessary to run a resort and not according to any quality value that Marriott and/or the owners might think a resort has. The fact is, geography is a more relevant indicator than amenities when the costs for maintaining any resort are determined. Isn't it? The nicest/newest inland resort is never going to cost as much to maintain as an island/ocean resort. So m/f might be a consideration, but perhaps only a minor one?

MF's are set by the HOA. Marriott only manages the resorts and, for doing this they receive a management fee. Marriott has shown that it will walk away from managing resorts and take their name off the resort if the HOA doesn't keep the resort maintained to Marriott standards.

Any internal exchange system is would still be seperate from the resorts themselves. The MF's will have little, if any, impact on the internal exchange system as far as Marriott is concerned. Of course the cost of MF's as compared to how many points a resort is alloted will have a big impact on whether or not owners want to join.

It's also one more reason to offer a home resort advantage. Home resort advantage protects owners of lessor seasons. If the gate opens at the same time for everyone, the Platinum owners could theoretically "stretch" the value of their ownership by reserving Silver and Gold season weeks. Since they would have more points than Gold, Silver or Bonze season owners, in theory at least they could occupy every week in those seasons while the actual owners of those seasons would be able to get a week at all. There will have to be some home resort advantage offered to protect those who own in lower seasons.
 

dougp26364

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This would be consistent with what my sales rep told me about the points system -- his comment was that I could due to an equity trade and 100% of my purchase price would be applied to the points purchase. He also didn't think it would have a home resort. But, we are speculating.

No home resort adavantage means no protection for those that own in that season. I often use the points I have from high season weeks to reserve lower season weeks to stretch my usage. In both systems I own in, owners in those seasons have a home resort advantage. With HGVC it's 3 months. With DRI it's 2 months. It gives owners in those seasons the right to reserve what they want before I pick up what I want at a lower points price.

If Platinum owners were allowed to reserve all the Bronze, Silver and Gold weeks, Marriott will have a lot of people complaining they have lost a contractual right. That is the right to reserve a week in their home resort during the season they paid to own in.

The saleman might think there won't be a home resort advantage but, IMHO, that only shows their ignorance of how points systems really work and is one example of why they don't know what's coming. Or, it could be showing my ignorance thinking that Marriott has actually thought this out and won't make to many big mistakes.
 

dougp26364

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thank god for my Blackberry I am able to at least be one or two pages behind any given moment !!!

Perry and Doug - let's meet up over a nice BBQ say in July? I will buy both of you a beer (I don't drink).

It might have to be a virtual beer. We don't leave the state of KS very much unless it's on vacation. ;)
 

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It might have to be a virtual beer. We don't leave the state of KS very much unless it's on vacation. ;)

And when you do? Do you say, "honey, we're not in Kansas anymore" a few times a day?

<thud>
 

m61376

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The saleman might think there won't be a home resort advantage but, IMHO, that only shows their ignorance of how points systems really work and is one example of why they don't know what's coming. Or, it could be showing my ignorance thinking that Marriott has actually thought this out and won't make to many big mistakes.

But that's assuming it's an overlay program. If you recall, Fletch said the same thing. And- that's what they did in the Asia Pacific program. Basically, adopters of the new program effectively gave up their ownership rights to a particular property.

And- wrt MF's- adopters of the new program pay a set MF per point. Effectively, Marriott spreads the risk across the board, across all resorts. What I find confusing is how they coordinate this with properties that still have partial week ownership.

Personally, even IF they do develop a program, if I have to give up home resort advantage I'll stick with what I have. I think a lot of Plat. week owners and other week owners who bought where they like to go most years will want to retain that right.

As for surmising how they will place point valuations- I think it will be hard for them to relate the point assignments to what the developer's pricing, because of the time factor. The price structure at newer resorts is necessarily higher because of cost, but does not necessarily reflect demand. I still think demand will play a part in the formula- and I think they will look at what they've already done. The rental rates that they charge for different size units reflects all the parameters- different demand at different times of the year, different rates for different views, etc., and has already taken the differing cost factors out of the equation. So my guess is that the point valuations will be some formulation based on what Marriott charges its rental customers, probably based on the average rate for the time period that correlates with the season. This would be very easy- if the rental rate is $875 for a 2BR then maybe they'd allocate 87,500 points; where it is $300 they'd be allocating 30,000 points. The logistics for this are already in place.
 

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Trial balloon or lead balloon?

Marriott is not a dumb Fortune 500 company - I sure believe that.

Spreading this stupid rumor for 4+ years is just dumb by a smart company.

I've always suspected that Marriott is floating trial balloons by spreading a rumor to smart folks (TUG and folks who know about resales) - that's why I'm not holding back on their stupid trial balloons.

Marriott: If you want a fantastic sales tool and keep your owners happy (those folks buy a boat load of timeshares direct from you) here's what you need to do:

Create a Point Based Internal Exchange system where no caste system is needed to make it a sales tool - drop the word "Resale" from your vocabulary.

  • Make membership price uniform to ALL owners - 10% of current sales price for grandfathered units and add 10% to the current sales price - all at the same time on the day of introduction.
  • Allow resales to enter anytime later for a fee like the above.
  • Allow membership to transfer with ALL resales - not just yours.
  • Create a reasonable fee structure.
  • 1 year commitment to exit the system.

That's it - everyone is happy.

I know you are reading these posts - you can't be stupid enough to do anything else.
 

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  • Make membership price uniform to ALL owners - 10% of current sales price for grandfathered units and add 10% to the current sales price - all at the same time on the day of introduction.

    That's it - everyone is happy.
    .


  • That means some people here would be spending 10k to buy in..... I dont know about that one.
 

PerryM

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That means some people here would be spending 10k to buy in..... I dont know about that one.

Pick 5% or 8% or 2.5% but a percentage is FAR more fair then a flat fee which applies the same to a Platinum Plus Holiday week or a Bronze week.
 

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Just a little late, but...

someone asked about 500+ posts ago about whether Marriott was the only group which had its own area at II with a special phone number. The Royal Resorts also have a separate number. It is a bit complicated for me, as when I call the Royals number, I automatically get sent to a Marriott advisor. Don't know why.
 

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Just to add to the speculation I would imagine that if Marriott does go to an internal point system units would be offered AC's more frequently for II deposit.
 
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dougp26364

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But that's assuming it's an overlay program. If you recall, Fletch said the same thing. And- that's what they did in the Asia Pacific program. Basically, adopters of the new program effectively gave up their ownership rights to a particular property.

And- wrt MF's- adopters of the new program pay a set MF per point. Effectively, Marriott spreads the risk across the board, across all resorts. What I find confusing is how they coordinate this with properties that still have partial week ownership.

Personally, even IF they do develop a program, if I have to give up home resort advantage I'll stick with what I have. I think a lot of Plat. week owners and other week owners who bought where they like to go most years will want to retain that right.

As for surmising how they will place point valuations- I think it will be hard for them to relate the point assignments to what the developer's pricing, because of the time factor. The price structure at newer resorts is necessarily higher because of cost, but does not necessarily reflect demand. I still think demand will play a part in the formula- and I think they will look at what they've already done. The rental rates that they charge for different size units reflects all the parameters- different demand at different times of the year, different rates for different views, etc., and has already taken the differing cost factors out of the equation. So my guess is that the point valuations will be some formulation based on what Marriott charges its rental customers, probably based on the average rate for the time period that correlates with the season. This would be very easy- if the rental rate is $875 for a 2BR then maybe they'd allocate 87,500 points; where it is $300 they'd be allocating 30,000 points. The logistics for this are already in place.


Then what we're talking about wouldn't be a points based exchange program, it would be trust ownership with Marriott retaining all voting rights and control of the properties. If you ask me, a program like that is likely to land with a resounding THUD with current owners who were sold on the rights of deeded ownership.

It's coordinated by splitting the inventory between the two types of ownership. It will complicate matters of placement and reservations with the resorts but, it's not impossible. This would also create a lot of dissatisfaction amoung owners.

Like you, if home resort advantage is given up they can count me out. For that matter, if this moves from deeded ownership to trust based ownership, they can count me out. I have no desire to sign over my deeds for a kiss and a promise that Marriott will look out for my best interest.
 

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Then what we're talking about wouldn't be a points based exchange program, it would be trust ownership with Marriott retaining all voting rights and control of the properties. If you ask me, a program like that is likely to land with a resounding THUD with current owners who were sold on the rights of deeded ownership.

It's coordinated by splitting the inventory between the two types of ownership. It will complicate matters of placement and reservations with the resorts but, it's not impossible. This would also create a lot of dissatisfaction among owners.

Like you, if home resort advantage is given up they can count me out. For that matter, if this moves from deeded ownership to trust based ownership, they can count me out. I have no desire to sign over my deeds for a kiss and a promise that Marriott will look out for my best interest.

The rumored Points system is doomed to failure if Marriott can't entice the vast vast majority of owners to immediately convert. If they screw around with 2 inventories and slow conversion they are going to repeat the RCI Points introduction debacle.

Like I've said for many years now there is a grown-up at Marriott that will do the right thing and spank the marketing morons for trying to implement a disaster just as the real estate market is imploding.

Marriott only gets one chance at the introduction - do they really want to bet MVCI on a sales gimmick cooked up by marketing morons who wouldn't know a faulty system if it fell on their heads.

P.S.

Hey Marriott I found an even more fair membership fee - make the membership fee based upon the number of Points a unit generates. Say a Gold week generates 1,500 Points per year - make the membership fee $1 per point; they pay $1,500 to join. A Platinum Plus Holiday week generates 4,500 Points per year - they pay $4,500 to join.

Pick a price per point and there isn't any reason you can't make the introduction easier by spreading the membership fee over 3 years. (Limited time only owners - join within 30 days and spread the membership fee over 3 years; but only for the first 30 days - hurry)

That way weeks disappear and Points are what folks think about - even as they join. If I have 3 Platinum Plus 2 Gold and 1 Silver I simply calculate the number of Points generated and I multiply that by the price per Point and know my membership fee.

If I don't have the cash I might not add the Silver now but a year or so away but still using the membership fee per point.
 
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dougp26364

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The rumored Points system is doomed to failure if Marriott can't entice the vast vast majority of owners to immediately convert. If they screw around with 2 inventories and slow conversion they are going to repeat the RCI Points introduction debacle.

Like I've said for many years now there is a grown-up at Marriott that will do the right thing and spank the marketing morons for trying to implement a disaster just as the real estate market is imploding.

Marriott only gets one chance at the introduction - do they really want to bet MVCI on a sales gimmick cooked up by marketing morons who wouldn't know a faulty system if it fell on their heads.

P.S.

Hey Marriott I found an even more fair membership fee - make the membership fee based upon the number of Points a unit generates. Say a Gold week generates 1,500 Points per year - make the membership fee $1 per point; they pay $1,500 to join. A Platinum Plus Holiday week generates 4,500 Points per year - they pay $4,500 to join.

Pick a price per point and there isn't any reason you can't make the introduction easier by spreading the membership fee over 3 years.

Holy Cow, I find myself agreeing with you this time. :D

If Marriott goes the way of some form of trust based internal system and divides the inventory into weeks based ownership and trust based ownership, they're doomed. I'd like to think that current owners are smart enough to retain all the rights, including home resort advantage and voting rights, vs signing them over to Marriott and giving Marriott complete control. It'd be a sweet deal for Marriott but it would harm the owners a great deal. I doubt I'd ever give any considertion to such a plan.

DRI is sort of interesting in that they have trust based ownership, deeded weeks based ownership and a points based reservations system that all owners can participate in whether they own deeded weeks or trust points. Oddly enough, it works rather well. Inventory is plentiful for points based exchanges and weeks based owners don't appear to have issues getting desirable weeks at their home resorts. I can't imagine keeping all that inventory seperated is all that easy for the resorts when owners want to reserve a week.

Marriott would be better served by introducing a points based system that allows owners to keep their deeded weeks and maintain their home resort advantage. That is what I've been under the impression they will do. If I'm wrong, Marriott is looking at potentially one of the largest flops for an internal exchange system timeshare has ever known. It could surpass the debacle that appears to be going on at Starwood.

Fotunately, owners won't have to join any trust based system and, if enough owners avoid it like the plague it will die a quick merciful death. Unfortunately by then Marriott will have issues with those owners that did buy into the system. Especially with new owners who wouldn't know anything different. It could really do a lot of damage to the Marriott brand.

I honestly don't see Marriott making this sort of mistake. I really hope they don't make this mistake. If they do, thank goodness we own weeks we can use. I'll be happy to use our ownership or trade using Interval until such a time Marriott would come to it's senses.

I still think they'll simply offer deeded weeks the option to convert those weeks into points, pay a yearly membership fee, pay a moderate internal exchange fee and keep their deeds. That would be the simplest and smartest thing they could do. Of course, I've seen large corporations make some pretty bone headed mistakes lately thinking the us common folk are to stupid to know what's best for ourselves.
 

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Just to add to the speculation I would imagine that if Marriott does go to an internal point system units would be offered AC's more frequently for II deposit.

Frank's comment raises a point I've been wondering about in the context of this whole discussion - where I've read that joining the anticipated new program would be optional - and that is, if someone joins the eventual "new" program, would they then be precluded from trading their converted week(s) through II?

Which is to say, would joining the program mean relinquishing the opportunity to trade into all of those other non-Marriott resorts which II offers?
 

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[Maintenance Fee

Current maintenance fee is US$ 0.027 per Club point. Maintenance Fees are not based on the specific location but the whole system. There is no "cheap Maintenance fee"-Location.

There are three Travel Demand Seasons within the scheme LOW (TDI 50 to 80), MODERATE (TDI 80 to 120), HIGH (TDI 120 to 150+).

As already quoted in the thread above, the price structure for a week is as follows:

Low/Moderate/High

Studio

10,000/15,000/27,500

1 Bedroom

15,000/23,000/42,500

2 Bedroom

23,000/32,500/60,000

3 Bedroom

32,500/45,000/85,000


The above qoutes are from another thread regarding the Asia program. The chart is regarding a trade to other Marriotts that are not currently in the Asia program. If the Asia program is used as a guide, if a platinum week in Orlando was worth 50,000 points, my maintenance fees would go from $850 to $1,350. 60,000 points would be $1,620. Those fees would scare alot of people away from converting.

It also appears that the season (platinum, gold and bronze) may be more important than the resort for assigning point values. However, the top resorts such as Hawaii may only have platinum seasons.
 

dougp26364

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Frank's comment raises a point I've been wondering about in the context of this whole discussion - where I've read that joining the anticipated new program would be optional - and that is, if someone joins the eventual "new" program, would they then be precluded from trading their converted week(s) through II?

Which is to say, would joining the program mean relinquishing the opportunity to trade into all of those other non-Marriott resorts which II offers?

I don't know of any points based or trust based timeshare ownership that has this restriction. The benefit is you can trade internally, have first crack at that systems units and pay a lower exchange fee or no fee at all. If you can't find something you like internally, then you can still trade through RCI or I.I., whichever exchange company they use.

Of note, there is a restriction within the DRI rules that says you MUST make external exchanges through I.I. They will not allow a points member to reserve a unit and exchange through an independant company. How legal that is I won't begin to guess.
 

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Marriott Aruba Surf Club 2 & 3BRs
I honestly don't see Marriott making this sort of mistake. I really hope they don't make this mistake. If they do, thank goodness we own weeks we can use. I'll be happy to use our ownership or trade using Interval until such a time Marriott would come to it's senses.

I agree with you're sentiment that Marriott shouldn't go down this road. However, I am not so sure they won't. That seems to be exactly what they did with the Asia pacific program. Also- Fletch did make a comment that, at least from what he heard, there would be no home resort advantage (which supports what they did before with the AP program).

That's one of the reasons I'm so doubtful about the new program. I hope you are right. And I do agree- those owners who bought where they are very happy going (like you and I) are not really the ones who would be in jeopardy. However, Marriott sold many properties to unsuspecting buyers with the illusion of easily being able to trade and getting season upgrades. Many have managed to work the system as the salesperson alluded to. I feel sorry for those people, who stand to lose a way of life they've grown accustomed to.

BTW- does anyone know what kind of response the Asia Pacific program has received? Is there any data on that? The program has been in effect for over half a year already- have people been converting their deeded weeks in Las Vegas, Hawaii, and elsewhere?
 
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