Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[dougp26364]

I agree with you're sentiment that Marriott shouldn't go down this road. However, I am not so sure they won't. That seems to be exactly what they did with the Asia pacific program. Also- Fletch did make a comment that, at least from what he heard, there would be no home resort advantage (which supports what they did before with the AP program).

That's one of the reasons I'm so doubtful about the new program. I hope you are right. And I do agree- those owners who bought where they are very happy going (like you and I) are not really the ones who would be in jeopardy. However, Marriott sold many properties to unsuspecting buyers with the illusion of easily being able to trade and getting season upgrades. Many have managed to work the system as the salesperson alluded to. I feel sorry for those people, who stand to lose a way of life they've grown accustomed to.

BTW- does anyone know what kind of response the Asia Pacific program has received? Is there any data on that? The program has been in effect for over half a year already- have people been converting their deeded weeks in Las Vegas, Hawaii, and elsewhere?

Since we trade our lock-offs, we've learned to "work" the system and I'm actually pretty happy with it the way it is. Unfortunately, the one thing I've learned owning timeshares is that change is inevitable. There have been a lot of changes since we started in 1998 and I'm sure there's going to be a lot more. Some of those changes have cost me money, some have not. All have forced me to rethink and relearn how to maximize the usage of our timeshares.

We own in Vegas and, even though we sat through several owners updates we were never approached about converting to the AP program. I always assumed it was because we weren't what they thought was their target market. For that matter I don't even have a clue how much inventory at the Grand Chateau is AP and how much is traditional. I can say I've never had an issue booking the week we wanted but, I always book a year in advance.

If this does turn out to be a trust based product rather than just a points based exchange system, we'll stick with Interval. We really enjoy exchanging into other Marriott resorts via the Marriott preference with Interval but, not so much I'd sell my soul (give my deeded week up) to Marriott just to have some new internal exchange system. I'm not giving up my deeds.

 

[Superchief]

Like it the way I bought it

When I purchased my timeshares, I made my decisions based on the current program and vacation preferences. I bought the timeshares and the seasons based on when and where I planned to vacation, and based on the relative cost vs. other alternatives. Since we like to travel to mountains in summer, and beaches (or desert) in spring and fall, I only purchased one week that is platinum (Royal Palms). I have alsways been able to go where I want or exchange using the current system. Recently, I locked off my June 2010 week at Mountainside, exchanged the lockoff for 2BR June 2010 at Royal Palms (for my brother), and the 1BR for 1BR at Shadow Ridge in March 2011. Other than the devaluation of Marriott Points, I like the system as it is.

Since I don't own any platinum weeks at newer resorts, I doubt that any new system will match what I can do today. I think that Marriott would be better off to determine how to more fairly allocate Marriott Rewards points as an option, rather than adopt a new points exchange system.

 

[Quilter]

When I purchased my timeshares, I made my decisions based on the current program and vacation preferences. I bought the timeshares and the seasons based on when and where I planned to vacation, and based on the relative cost vs. other alternatives. Since we like to travel to mountains in summer, and beaches (or desert) in spring and fall, I only purchased one week that is platinum (Royal Palms). I have alsways been able to go where I want or exchange using the current system. Recently, I locked off my June 2010 week at Mountainside, exchanged the lockoff for 2BR June 2010 at Royal Palms (for my brother), and the 1BR for 1BR at Shadow Ridge in March 2011. Other than the devaluation of Marriott Points, I like the system as it is.

Since I don't own any platinum weeks at newer resorts, I doubt that any new system will match what I can do today. I think that Marriott would be better off to determine how to more fairly allocate Marriott Rewards points as an option, rather than adopt a new points exchange system.

I agree with you Superchief. We also enjoy the system we bought into and are very disappointed that Marriott will be making such drastic changes. You know the saying "a house divided. . . " Some Marriott owners will stay with II for the benefits it gives out of the U.S. and outside the Marriott system, others will go with the new system. This will divide the trading inventory.

Without being part of the corporate discussions it's hard to say what the motives are but I can't see any other reason than more money for Marriott. The same thing happened when they changed the rental program. Make more money for Marriott. You just never know what they're going to come up with next. Very hard to develop trust. Doesn't give me any connection to the hype for the "Marriott Way" of old that looked out for the customer. More like the new Marriott way that says the customer will just have to deal with it.

 

[cruisin]

If its a pure points system with no home resort, Marriott will no longer have to build beautiful resorts that people will be willing to own a deed at. They will build in cheaper places with cheaper construction, and sell points at the beautiful Hawaii resorts. It will take a while to get there, but it is too hard to resist when trying to make a profit, its simply the path of least resistance. They just need a lot of people to join up. The internal exchange can be a loss-leader for them if it creates enough sales. Marriot would love to sell the Hawaii properties over and over. There will not be available inventory for anyone, but everyone will have the potential to spend New years in Hawaii.

Perry has always said that being able to sell New Years in Hawaii to every potential buyer is a salesman's bonanza.

They just need enough people to buy in.........

 

[dougp26364]

This is just a thought but, there does exist a relationship between DRI and Marriott at this moment. Grand Chateau was originally a DRI project. DRI has a silent partnership with Marriott which gave Marriott the right to build, sell and brand Grand Chateau.

DRI has a program in which there are traditional weeks owners, a points based exchange club and a trust based ownership in which there is no real home resort. What's filtered down appears to include all of these situations to some degree. I'm begining to wonder how deep the silent partnership between DRI and Marriott is running and, is Marriott looking to DRI's system of weeks, points and trust based ownership as a model for it's own program?

Only time will tell. Marriott and DRI also have many things that are not in common and this could just be some wild flight of my imagination. The one thing I have learned about timeshare in the years we've been owners is that everything is likely to continue to evolve and change. It's a type of vacation that can be very satisfactory but it does require that you keep up with what's going on in order to make the most of your ownership. It's not for those that want to just book and go last minute or want to allow a travel agent to do all the work for them. I think what has everyone on edge is the idea we'll all have a certain amount of relearning we'll need to do in order to continue to get the most out of our Marriott ownerships.

 

[PerryM]

Bingo - we have a winner...

If its a pure points system with no home resort, Marriott will no longer have to build beautiful resorts that people will be willing to own a deed at. They will build in cheaper places with cheaper construction, and sell points at the beautiful Hawaii resorts. It will take a while to get there, but it is too hard to resist when trying to make a profit, its simply the path of least resistance. They just need a lot of people to join up. The internal exchange can be a loss-leader for them if it creates enough sales. Marriot would love to sell the Hawaii properties over and over. There will not be available inventory for anyone, but everyone will have the potential to spend New years in Hawaii.

Perry has always said that being able to sell New Years in Hawaii to every potential buyer is a salesman's bonanza.

They just need enough people to buy in.........

Holy cow folks are finally beginning to understand what Marriott is going to shove down our throats - they can sell generic Points and sell thousands of new owners New Year's week in Park City or Maui or....

Thousands and thousand of sales for the same week at any Marriott they want with no need to actually own the week but use our units. It's a salesreps dream come true.

What salesrep worth their salt wants to sell Bronze, Silver, and Gold weeks when its so easy to sell Platinum Plus Holiday weeks - they are the ones that sell out first - bronze last.

The new exchange system is for Marriott's benefit at our expense. Marriott can dump doggy bronze weeks that they are still stuck with and lock in New Year's week in Maui and rent it to folks for mega-bucks.

Want to bet Marriott never thought of this?

And for goodness sakes folks drop the word "I" or "Me" or "We" from the new exchange scheme - its all about Marriott's new sales tool...

Glad to see some folks know this already - more need to get over the feeling that Marriott would never screw them. For 4 years now Marriott has been telling us they intend to screw us - believe them!!!

 

[potterew]

I think that if they do something like you are suggesting, those like me who own in Hawaii will probably not convert to points, while those at some of the other systems will convert quickly. I personally think it will be something that does the opposite and tries to convince the people who own in Hawaii to jump on it, but not benefit those in other locations.

I'm guessing that is why it has been so long to implement something. They need to come up with something to entice both sides or the program would be useless.

There is alot of speculation on what will happen. We are probably all wrong.

 

[PerryM]

That grumbling noise is not my tummy....

I think that if they do something like you are suggesting, those like me who own in Hawaii will probably not convert to points, while those at some of the other systems will convert quickly. I personally think it will be something that does the opposite and tries to convince the people who own in Hawaii to jump on it, but not benefit those in other locations.

I'm guessing that is why it has been so long to implement something. They need to come up with something to entice both sides or the program would be useless.

There is alot of speculation on what will happen. We are probably all wrong.

I doubt Marriott will have ANY problems converting a large number of Maui folks - the Points they generate will make their eyes swim.

If I were Marriott I'd go out of my way to get those Platinum folks in Maui - some kind of sweetener and the promise that they will be the first owner (notice the word owner and not system) to lock in a juicy MOC week for Christmas. They will be forced into allowing a home resort advantage - how about a 24-day same resort only window?

It's going to be fun to watch all this unfurl since I'll never join with a Gold Summit Watch - I'll be exchanging with super high Trading Power in II since II will go out of its way to entice Marriott folks to say. I really like the Sands of Kahana and can get into the Pink Elephant (Ka'anapali Beach Club) with my Gold Summit Watch for President's week just like I did for this year.

Marriott will start off great and probably do fine for a year or so until the grumbling from the owners gets in the way. Don't know what they'll do but grumble...

P.S.

Transparency is a word Marriott will NEVER use with the new scheme - the internal workings of it will be a corporate secret (just like II's and RCI's Trading Power) - there is NO way we will be able to determine if Marriott has set up an honest system. Granted we don't have that now with II but Marriott will never reveal how many exchanges it makes for itself and the rental income generated with these exchanges.

You won't find an independent auditing firm rendering a yearly opinion on the honesty of the scheme.

Expect Marriott to allow Points to be used for airline tickets, MRP purchases, car rentals - that opens the floodgates for renting on their part. They will gladly take your Points and provide a complete vacation package from airline tickets, car rentals, villa reservations, and even cruises - all require Marriott to convert Points into rental income from the units they rent to the public.

They do this with MRPs now - I don't expect anything less from MVCI.

 

[GaryDouglas]

Trizzle, trazzle, trozzle, trome...

I've heard that most owners at MOC/MMO use their weeks. I'm trying to figure out why any of these people would trade in their deeded weeks, particularly those with week 52. If the owners are wise to the ramifications of such a sceanario (maybe a big IF), the percentage of those keeping there deeded weeks would stay high and I would think in time, deeded weeks could demand a premium price. Too little facts and too much conjecture for my cloudy crystal ball... Help Mr. Wizard!

 

[David10225]

I'm not sure if I have thought this out correctly, but for those who remain in the old system, the choice of weeks you have will be dependent on how many of your fellow season holders move to the point system. For example, I own platinum season which goes from the last weekend in May through the end of August at Barony Beach in HH.

For the sake of argument, let's say that 99% of my fellow platinum season holders decide to move to the point system. I would anticipate that Marriott would start taking over the deeded weeks first from the more popular weeks and moving out towards closer to the shoulder seasons. If everyone but me moved to points, I suppose at some point I would have a choice of one week every year, maybe that end of May week...still in the platinum season..but limited to that one week.

I'm not suggesting a majority of owners will move as I have no idea...I might do so myself...but it surely impacts the available choices for those that don't. (or at least it does in my mind at 520 in the AM..lol)

 

[JimIg23]

That will be an issue. Will they be allowed to do that? that would effectively block a deeded owner from most of their season.

 

[m61376]

The whole issue of availability will depend upon how many people elect (or don't elect) to join. Perry's scenario relies on Platinum Plus Hawaii, ski week and Caribbean week owners in particular migrating to the new system. On the flip side, if people accustomed to Maui over Christmas or New Year's, skiing over the holidays or spending Christmas/New Years in Aruba, etc., simply want to continue doing what they paid big $$'s to do, then there will be very few weeks in the new system. Of course, that doesn't preclude the salespeople from selling the theoretical possibility of booking those weeks if you own enough points, or buying what you can afford now and adding to it later- a great sales pitch for people with young kids who may need school vacation times a few years down the road.

As for making reservations- since Marriott sold deeded floating weeks as having the potential to reserve any week in the season, I would assume that, as they sold or converted people to points, they would get their share of every week/arrival date reservations- so that, for example, if there were 50 units available per arrival day to reserve, IF half the owners in the season decide to join the new system, Marriott would get 25 and 25 would be reserved for owners who retain their week rights. Of course, IF there is a new system and IF most owners decide to join it, then it would theoretically be harder for week owners to reserve. Of course, the reverse is true- IF relatively few owners join any theoretical new system, then there would be fewer weeks for those who have converted their weeks to join. So the relative balance- and attractiveness of either system- will depend upon the level of adoption. As Quilter said: "A house divided..." - unfortunately, that may portend to be true.

 

[m61376]

That will be an issue. Will they be allowed to do that? that would effectively block a deeded owner from most of their season.

It would theoretically be an issue only if the majority of owners switch over. The more weeks that are converted, the more weeks that are allocated to the points system. On the other hand, there are fewer deeded week owners competing for those remaining weeks.

I think the reservation system works, to some extent, because there are so many units for Marriott to manipulate. Effectively creating two systems, with proportional inventory allotted to each, will potentially make room control a nightmare to manage. Their current reservation system has its own problems- can you imagine dealing with reservations in two distinct systems?!

 

[timeos2]

How can you trust the fox who swears they've gone vegetarian but sells wings?

As for making reservations- since Marriott sold deeded floating weeks as having the potential to reserve any week in the season, I would assume that, as they sold or converted people to points, they would get their share of every week/arrival date reservations- so that, for example, if there were 50 units available per arrival day to reserve, IF half the owners in the season decide to join the new system, Marriott would get 25 and 25 would be reserved for owners who retain their week rights. Of course, IF there is a new system and IF most owners decide to join it, then it would theoretically be harder for week owners to reserve. Of course, the reverse is true- IF relatively few owners join any theoretical new system, then there would be fewer weeks for those who have converted their weeks to join. So the relative balance- and attractiveness of either system- will depend upon the level of adoption. As Quilter said: "A house divided..." - unfortunately, that may portend to be true.

The theory that if 50% own weeks and 50% move to points puts 50% of the available inventory into a pool for each is very valid. The real problem then becomes the spread of available times over the two groups. Unfortunately the split can be unfairly tipped to one group or the other through by the system administrator. The overall season may be the top Platinum but there are still strong degrees of value to the holidays and other sweet spot times vs the very beginning and end of the designated period.

Now you've got the group who stands to gain the most - Marriott - also in control of that assignment! Does anyone really believe they won't be tempted to skew the best toward the group they want to sell to? It's another case where having a developer/sales group in charge of management is clearly a conflict of interest and a tough temptation for any company to resist. Who is going to be able to effectively call them on it when they hold the keys to every part of the process?

To be able to trust that the assignment is really being done at, in this example, 50% to each group not just overall but down to the individual start date being an even 50/50 split I would want to see an independent management that answers to the owners Board making that call. There is just too much complete trust required of any sales/marketing/management group all in one to make an owner comfortable. If so many here are convinced the whole points system will be implemented to create sales for Marriott and hurt resales then logic says they will do all they can to make those that hold out feel the old way no longer works. What better way to make THAT happen than to soak up all the high demand times with the new reservations and leave only the lesser times for the "old timers". I wouldn't trust them for a minute.

 

[Transit]

Inventory for points and weeks would probably change within a time line like other point systems like Hyatt, Starwood and DVC. Owners at 12 months would get first crack. You would most likely be able to deposit/withdraw points units from 6-10 months and there would also be a time line for II deposits. Some poster are assuming that a points system roll out would be like RCI points and they need to give back a deeded week to get a points week that may not be the case at all. Most Hyatt and Starwood are fully deeded units. Their points system is just another option/way to use your DEEDED week.

 

[jlf58]

I would expect very few PP week owners to join since they mostly use there weeks. We sold Aruba Platinum and Gold as traders so they should be a big portion. At even $400 a pop to convert, I expect alot of owners to wait and see what other think. Just an FYI, the sales people get ZERO for an owner to convert so they will be pushing new sales only !! I expect it will take 5 years to get anywhere near 30% converted.

Ok, want to know what I get a good laugh at . I sold very few crappy weeks ie. Gold in Park City, Bronze anywhere etc. They whole II system is based on like for like so except for 60 days or less, you should not be able to get a Platinum week with a Bronze or low demand Gold week. Everyone who bought these crappy weeks resale, knows that but figured out a way to get them anyway. Well now it's time to pay the pipper. The system will be tilted to the advantgae of the higher demanded weeks which is should be. As my daughter would say " oh snap "

Just an FYI
This has become the 3rd most viewed thread in Marriott and should go to 2nd soon. 1st is of course is AOC and what a great job some people are doing in getting AOC dues to continue to go up.

It would theoretically be an issue only if the majority of owners switch over. The more weeks that are converted, the more weeks that are allocated to the points system. On the other hand, there are fewer deeded week owners competing for those remaining weeks.

I think the reservation system works, to some extent, because there are so many units for Marriott to manipulate. Effectively creating two systems, with proportional inventory allotted to each, will potentially make room control a nightmare to manage. Their current reservation system has its own problems- can you imagine dealing with reservations in two distinct systems?!

 

[Transit]

I would expect very few PP week owners to join since they mostly use there weeks. We sold Aruba Platinum and Gold as traders so they should be a big portion. At even $400 a pop to convert, I expect alot of owners to wait and see what other think. Just an FYI, the sales people get ZERO for an owner to convert so they will be pushing new sales only !! I expect it will take 5 years to get anywhere near 30% converted.

Ok, want to know

Marriott still owns prime inventory at their some of their best resorts. Dangle that top shelf unsold inventory like a shiny carrot in a points system and owners will join in droves.

 

[jlf58]

Speaking of which, not they they would do this , but I would expect Marco Island Platinum weeks to have a VERY high point value. I am just sayin LOL

Marriott still owns prime inventory at their some of their best resorts. Dangle that top shelf unsold inventory like a shiny carrot in a points system and owners will join in droves.

 

[m61376]

Marriott still owns prime inventory at their some of their best resorts. Dangle that top shelf unsold inventory like a shiny carrot in a points system and owners will join in droves.

But a lot of their other top resorts are sold out for Platinum Plus and many even for Platinum.

 

[jlf58]

Marco Island Platinum will never sell out without pts help

But a lot of their other top resorts are sold out for Platinum Plus and many even for Platinum.

 

[m61376]

Speaking of which, not they they would do this , but I would expect Marco Island Platinum weeks to have a VERY high point value. I am just sayin LOL

That's exactly one of my underlying concerns wrt the possible new system. Will the newest resort- or the one they are having trouble selling at- suddenly have a disproportional point allocation? Great for sales, but not so great if current owners ever want to trade into newer resorts.

 

[m61376]

Marco Island Platinum will never sell out without pts help

Not surprising. I was referring to perhaps more popular destinations where Plat. weeks are sold old (or almost sold out).

Will that "help" consist of possibly a skewed point allocation? And then where does Marriott go from there for the next resort?

 

[cruisin]

Marriott can just pick up one PP on ROFR at every resort and sell the dream to every new buyer of Christas or new years in Hawaii or on the slopes.

 

[Superchief]

IMO, this new system will primarily appeal to those who purchased platinum weeks with the purpose of frequent exchanging, or who bought in destinations that are more expensive to travel to on a regular basis. Why would a platinum week owner at Ocean Pointe who uses their week 50%+ of the time want to buy into a point system with no home resort advantage? The whole concept of purchasing where you want to vacation goes away. Why own a timeshare at all?

 

[timeos2]

If there is one then it's available.

But a lot of their other top resorts are sold out for Platinum Plus and many even for Platinum.

They only need one week in the system to truthfully state "It's available". I'd bet they can finagle that (or even 2 or 3) at every resort quite easily. They don't have to say how easy/hard it will be to GET one, just that they exist. You know how convincing sales weasel 1/2 truths can be in the carefully designed frenzy of the sales pitch. Most potential buyers are not TUG savvy and can be easily swayed into the pretty picture painted for them. Two years later IF they aren't satisfied its way too late to back out. And most probably would be satisfied as they play with their expensive new points toy.