Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[SueDonJ]

Who knows, in the Marriott system all Plat Manor Club weeks may have the same points (I suspect they will), and there for the same trading power. This would/could open up more of the high demand weeks for owner use.

Ray

I agree with everything here, Ray. Good point. (ha! - pun not intended)

 

[wuv pooh]

Who knows, in the Marriott system all Plat Manor Club weeks may have the same points (I suspect they will), and there for the same trading power. This would/could open up more of the high demand weeks for owner use.

My comment refers to the existing system, which does make a distinction, and why someone might prefer points.

I agree with your point that if all Platinum weeks have the same points then there will no longer be any point to getting on the phone at 9am/6am to reserve 4th of July. I will just log in and choose any Platinum week available if I want to get points. It would be easier for people who want to use to get high demand weeks.

That is one anomaly of the current system. It is often easier for me to trade into a prime week than it is for an owner to reserve it. There are enough savvy traders that book the week that many are deposited. If you have an ongoing request you can match that week easier than someone who owns at that resort calling in to reserve that week.

 

[m61376]

Who knows, in the Marriott system all Plat Manor Club weeks may have the same points (I suspect they will), and there for the same trading power. This would/could open up more of the high demand weeks for owner use.

Ray

That is one benefit- owners likely won't be hogging prime weeks for trading, since I would expect all weeks in the same season to have the same point value (of the same size and perhaps the same view category).

The flip side is that Marriott will likely assign point values based on the average week in the season. The very real possibility exists that, whereas the MMC owner who reserved that prime July 4th week could trade to a nice 2BR for a week in Hawaii, for example, the point value of that Plat. week will be such that the MMC can only reserve a 1BR or perhaps a 2BR in Hawaii but for 3 or 4 days. While I am making a broad based assumption here, I am basing it on what Marriott offered Phuket owners in the Asia Pacific program. While the final program (IF any) may look quite different, it is clear that Marirott is at least strongly considering a program with wide disparities between properties/seasons.

Realistically, do you expect Marriott to assign point values based on the most desirable weeks in the season, or an average of the weeks. Let's face it, Marriott themselves rents a September week a whole lot less than a July week at many resorts where the Plat. season may extend for several months on either side of the summer. My guess is that the very resorts with those excessively long Plat. seasons might find the biggest disparity in their point assignments.

 

[SueDonJ]

Like you, m, I'd expect Marriott to assign point values based on an average week in a season and not the holiday/high-demand weeks. Perhaps, though, because Marriott certainly recognizes that the longer-Platinum-season resorts present specific challenges to those owners, instead of an average point value there they will adjust up from the average to overcome the challenge? Like everyone else, I certainly hope they're considering all the points that we're discussing.

 

[sdtugger]

Still not getting it

In the other point systems is it easy to reserve or trade into high demand weeks? I am not at all confident that a points system would make it easier to reserve holiday/summer weeks in Maui. Those weeks are gone within 1-2 minutes of coming on line. The demand is so strong that I seriously question the conclusion that if you removed those who reserve to trade that it will be easy to reserve those weeks. And, those weeks represent nearly 50% of the available weeks.

Even if it is true that removing traders makes it easier for owners to reserve, I do not believe that any of these key weeks would still be available (in any level of significance) to non-owners. If that is true, how would a would be internal trader be happier with the new system?

Let's say I bought a Ko'Olina 2 bedroom and I want to trade into Maui. If I can't trade it for any of the weeks when my kids are out of school, why would I pay extra for the new system? The current system makes it fairly easy to trade a Ko'Olina into Maui for high demand weeks, provided you are willing to split the unit and trade for 2 sides (and that is a function of owners splitting and that may continue in a new system).

I guess my point is that I don't understand the "certainty" that some are suggesting would come about from the new system. My expectation would be that it would be much tougher to trade into a key week at most resorts.

 

[brigechols]

The flip side is that Marriott will likely assign point values based on the average week in the season. The very real possibility exists that, whereas the MMC owner who reserved that prime July 4th week could trade to a nice 2BR for a week in Hawaii, for example, the point value of that Plat. week will be such that the MMC can only reserve a 1BR or perhaps a 2BR in Hawaii but for 3 or 4 days. While I am making a broad based assumption here, I am basing it on what Marriott offered Phuket owners in the Asia Pacific program.

The way I read and understand the Asia Pacific program, owners can use points or II to exchange. So using this example, the Phuket owner could use the internal point system to secure Hawaii for 4 or 5 days by converting their week to points or go through II and exchange a Phuket week for a Hawaii week. I would go with the exchange (internal sytem, external, or private party) that provides the most bang for the buck.

 

[Pit]

In a point system trade power is irrelevant - points are points. The dates are either available, or not. You either have enough points, or not.

But, for owners not in the point system (which could be a large number of weeks), trade power and rental value will remain prime considerations. I think you will still see owners clamoring for the peak demand weeks.

 

[m61376]

The way I read and understand the Asia Pacific program, owners can use points or II to exchange. So using this example, the Phuket owner could use the internal point system to secure Hawaii for 4 or 5 days by converting their week to points or go through II and exchange a Phuket week for a Hawaii week. I would go with the exchange (internal sytem, external, or private party) that provides the most bang for the buck.

And that's why, imho of course, it wouldn't make sense for even a Plat. Phuket week owner to join the Asia Pacific points program even if it were free, let alone the $5000 price tag to join. They stand to get more bang for their buck through II.

 

[rsackett]

If I were Marriott:

Anyone could reserve any week at any resort as long as Marriott still has points units avaiable at that resort. For an example: Marriott gives Joe 1200 points for his plat MMC. Joe has no need to resurve any week at MMC unless that is where he wants to go to MMC. If he does want to go to MMC his 1200 points is enough for a two bedroom 7 night stay any week during platinum season. Joe would reserve the week he wants by going on-line or calling the "Points" reservation line just like he does today on the weeks system.

If Joe wants to go to KBC over Christmas he calls the points reservation line one year out and trys for that week just like people who bought there. If all Points for that resort are already used up he is out of luck. If points are still avaible he has the right to reserve his time there, as much time as he can get with his points. His points will go farther with a one bedroom than a two bedroom, but that will be his choice.

He will be on the system trying to reserve with his points just like weeks owners will be trying to reserve. Weeks owners will only have access to the number of units still in the weeks program for a given season and points owners will only have access to the number of units in the points system for that season at that resort.

Ray

 

[m61376]

In the other point systems is it easy to reserve or trade into high demand weeks? I am not at all confident that a points system would make it easier to reserve holiday/summer weeks in Maui. Those weeks are gone within 1-2 minutes of coming on line. The demand is so strong that I seriously question the conclusion that if you removed those who reserve to trade that it will be easy to reserve those weeks. And, those weeks represent nearly 50% of the available weeks.

Even if it is true that removing traders makes it easier for owners to reserve, I do not believe that any of these key weeks would still be available (in any level of significance) to non-owners. If that is true, how would a would be internal trader be happier with the new system?

Let's say I bought a Ko'Olina 2 bedroom and I want to trade into Maui. If I can't trade it for any of the weeks when my kids are out of school, why would I pay extra for the new system? The current system makes it fairly easy to trade a Ko'Olina into Maui for high demand weeks, provided you are willing to split the unit and trade for 2 sides (and that is a function of owners splitting and that may continue in a new system).

I guess my point is that I don't understand the "certainty" that some are suggesting would come about from the new system. My expectation would be that it would be much tougher to trade into a key week at most resorts.

The "certainty" is that you don't have to wait for a trade- it is either available or it's not. The reality is that certain high demand weeks, esp. in resorts with a longer season such that many owners are vying for only a small portion of the weeks, will likely rarely be available. So it is a trade-off.

Ray- So, basically, you'd favor giving up any home resort priority? Under your scenario, would everyone pay the same MF's then? I think that KBC owner who doesn't get the week they want because it was secured by Joe would be pretty ticked that he was paying Hawaii's MF and the week he wanted was being enjoyed by Joe, paying MMC MF's. The other issue is that the KBC owner paid $$ to be able to reserve at KBC, and not have to compete with Joe who paid a lot less for his MMC unit. It's hard to change courses mid-stream because for every happy owner there are bound to be unhappy ones.

 

[rsackett]

...
Ray- So, basically, you'd favor giving up any home resort priority? Under your scenario, would everyone pay the same MF's then? I think that KBC owner who doesn't get the week they want because it was secured by Joe would be pretty ticked that he was paying Hawaii's MF and the week he wanted was being enjoyed by Joe, paying MMC MF's. The other issue is that the KBC owner paid $$ to be able to reserve at KBC, and not have to compete with Joe who paid a lot less for his MMC unit. It's hard to change courses mid-stream because for every happy owner there are bound to be unhappy ones.

I would charge maint fees baised on number of points. KBC paid 50k to get more points. Not perfect but if I was Mr. Marriott that is what I would do. Mr. KBC could join or not his choice. If we wants more time for his initial buy in he may do it. Not saying I would.

Ray

 

[sdtugger]

The "certainty" is that you don't have to wait for a trade- it is either available or it's not. The reality is that certain high demand weeks, esp. in resorts with a longer season such that many owners are vying for only a small portion of the weeks, will likely rarely be available. So it is a trade-off.

I agree that, based on my understanding of the rumors, high demand weeks will rarely be available. So, the only "certainty" is that you will not be able to trade into high demand weeks. Whereas, with the current II system, you have a strong chance of being able to trade into a high demand week. I still have children at home so I travel during the "high demand week" time period. I can't see how the new system would be interesting to me if it was free to join. Add a significant fee to join and it is almost incomprehensible to consider joining.

I'm trying to learn here, so please help me understand what would make someone with a high demand week (or low demand for that matter) join a system where the only weeks available for trading would be lower demand weeks.

 

[m61376]

I agree that, based on my understanding of the rumors, high demand weeks will rarely be available. So, the only "certainty" is that you will not be able to trade into high demand weeks. Whereas, with the current II system, you have a strong chance of being able to trade into a high demand week. I still have children at home so I travel during the "high demand week" time period. I can't see how the new system would be interesting to me if it was free to join. Add a significant fee to join and it is almost incomprehensible to consider joining.

I'm trying to learn here, so please help me understand what would make someone with a high demand week (or low demand for that matter) join a system where the only weeks available for trading would be lower demand weeks.

I wish I could....

Like you, I see lots of issues with the potential program. I think it will be very hard to totally revamp a functioning system.

There are some people who might be happy though. Owners at resorts with excessively long Plat. season who are now competing for 8 or 10 premium weeks in the season who might have less competition if people weren't nabbing them to increase their trade power (NCV, for ex.). On the other hand, if Marriott does as Ray suggests (and that, actually, concurs with what Fletch posted about eliminating home resort priority) and lets anyone with the requisite number of points book the week at the 12 month mark, you can have owners from other resorts heightening the competition. Whether it would all even out so that demand was equalized across the board is anyone's guess.

I think a big question is whether or not people would accept being given more points for their higher MF but giving up their home resort advantage. Would people be satisfied getting more purchase power by virtue of owning a high demand week and be willing to pay higher MF's, BUT lose priority for booking that high demand weeks at the resort that they purchased?

The other issue wrt MF's is that I understand what Ray suggested for KBC- the KBC owners gets more points because his week was more expensive. What does that do for different season ownership at resorts with multiple seasons? Since Bronze weeks will get fewer points, and since they paid less, do they now pay lower MF's? If so, who's going to make up the difference? Are Platinum week owners going to have to come up with additional MF's?

So, it can be that Plat. week owners will come out ahead wrt getting more points and being able to trade for either more days or bigger units at "lesser" properties, but this may come with a cost of higher MF's. Will that make it attractive?

 

[JimIg23]

I don't see Marriott making all Platinum weeks the same amount points, no matter how they structure the seasons. A platinum week in hawaii can't be the same amount of points as a platinum week in Orlando. No company is going to give a 4 week Hawaii owner that paid 300k for their weeks the same amount of points as the owner that paid 120k for 4 weeks inland. The number of points needed for a week in Hawaii will be the same amount (if not higher) than buying a Hawaii week now direct from Marriott, the same holds for an orlando week.

 

[Beverley]

A sales rep indicated that with a point system Marriott would be able to access the units that were turned in for points and use those units to be available for villa reservations (not rental). If this is true, what stops Marriott from using timeshare villas to fund rentals during those most popular weeks. In that case, those high demand weeks could actually be in less supply rather than greater supply.

Beverley

 

[bobcat]

A sales rep indicated that with a point system Marriott would be able to access the units that were turned in for points and use those units to be available for villa reservations (not rental). If this is true, what stops Marriott from using timeshare villas to fund rentals during those most popular weeks. In that case, those high demand weeks could actually be in less supply rather than greater supply.

Beverley

We had points and I do not like them. Someone has to give up a week for that week to go into points when they join . What happens if several owners do not want the point system, alot less weeks for point owners. When you purchase points, you give up your deed. I have seen some points resorts where the M F"s went up alot. There has been several good points made with this thread. You will have to wait and see. Think about it. Would you trade for points and give up your deed. We use our week each and do not trade it. As it was pointed out, if you have a week you may not have enough points to trade where you want to vacation. Also, over time, I have seen the points value go down. How will you handle that. A week is still a week.

 

[DanCali]

The way I read and understand the Asia Pacific program, owners can use points or II to exchange. So using this example, the Phuket owner could use the internal point system to secure Hawaii for 4 or 5 days by converting their week to points or go through II and exchange a Phuket week for a Hawaii week. I would go with the exchange (internal sytem, external, or private party) that provides the most bang for the buck.

As the Phuket owner you'd go to II.

As the Hawai owner you'd go to the internal system.

Good luck to the Phuket owner owner getting a Hawaii week!

I keep making this point over and over - for every person who will like the internal system there is one who will dislike it... In the end - half of the owners will not like it but if they choose to stay with II the prime weeks (belonging to the "happy" owners using the internal system) will no longer be available there...

 

[GaryDouglas]

Happiness?

Looks like I need to update my post from time to time as this thread evolves (or devolves)…

I will be happy if:

• I can go between a points and deeded system at will (or I will stay with deed only)
• I can trade internally and keep my ocean front location
• Pay no more than I currently pay II for trades, and we hardly ever exchange
• It does not devalue my properties
• Continue to easily reserve my week/s at my home resort

I will hold judgement until the rumors end and the facts appear...

 

[dougp26364]

If I were Marriott:

Anyone could reserve any week at any resort as long as Marriott still has points units avaiable at that resort. For an example: Marriott gives Joe 1200 points for his plat MMC. Joe has no need to resurve any week at MMC unless that is where he wants to go to MMC. If he does want to go to MMC his 1200 points is enough for a two bedroom 7 night stay any week during platinum season. Joe would reserve the week he wants by going on-line or calling the "Points" reservation line just like he does today on the weeks system.

If Joe wants to go to KBC over Christmas he calls the points reservation line one year out and trys for that week just like people who bought there. If all Points for that resort are already used up he is out of luck. If points are still avaible he has the right to reserve his time there, as much time as he can get with his points. His points will go farther with a one bedroom than a two bedroom, but that will be his choice.

He will be on the system trying to reserve with his points just like weeks owners will be trying to reserve. Weeks owners will only have access to the number of units still in the weeks program for a given season and points owners will only have access to the number of units in the points system for that season at that resort.

Ray

This is essentially how most points based systems work with the exception that there is a home resort reservation advantage. One system we own in give a 2 to 3 months advantage, the other gives a 3 month advantage. In this way owners of their home resort have first shot at getting the weeks they want prior to having to compete with all other owners.

Both systems have some sort of agreement with Interval or RCI as to what type of inventory they give to the exchange company for external exchangers. By having this agreement, the points have a value for exchange through the exchange company.

One system (Hilton) has a set value for points taking into consideration season, view and size of the units. It doesn't matter if you own in Hawaii or Orlando, a two bedroom Platinum season costs the same amount of points.

Most systems seem to vary the number of points by resort. DRI has different values for different resorts. One Vegas resort's two bedroom unit requires 12,500 points for a 7 night stay in the two bedroom unit. Another requires 14,000 points for a 7 night stay. Some resorts around the world cost as few as 6,000 points for a 7 night stay.

I'll be interested to see if Marriott goes with the fixed points depending on unit size, season and view or, if they'll do like most and go with varying numbers of points based on individual resorts. My bet is they'll go with varying numbers of points for each resort. Personally, I'm not in favor of this sort of system but, it allows a developer to continue to try to sell owners more points as the newer resorts go up in points cost. Since it gives current owners a reason to continue to buy more points, it's an advantage to the developer to use this sort of system to churn more business out of existing clients. That's the only reason I believe Marriott would use this type of points based system rather than a system with a fixed value system.

 

[PerryM]

Marriott Internal Exchange Points Plan 101

Here's how the new Point System will probably work:

• You must commit your unit for probably 3 years and if you sell your unit resale your new owner is screwed until the time is up
• Each season at each Marriott will be assigned a deposit amount which will be the same for each owner at that resort
• Marriott will reserve the best weeks in each season for Points owners and leave dog weeks for non-Point owners
• Renting is forbidden by owners; Marriott can use their Points to rent their reservations (Hello RCI)
• Marriott will have full access to anything they want for deposited developer weeks Points - they will get there 1/1000 of a second before any owner can
• Unused Points can carry forward 1 year with a fee of at least $179 or are lost
• Borrowing from next year is allowed if you pay the est MF for next year and $179 fee
• First come/first served with 24/7 access and the day starts at Midnight EST
• Delinquent MFs force suspension of account and reservations; reactivation fee charged after MF paid
• Exchange fee $179
• Once a reservation is made its yours - you can't rent it but can gift it to someone - don't count on redepositing your Points back
• Deposit first - no peeking to see if there is anything left but Bronze weeks
• Resales force instant cancellation of all reservations for the unit sold with all Points lost and Marriott gets them (just for the sold unit)

These are guesses on my part but they should be close for an antagonistic timeshare company. There will be fees coming out of the woodwork.

Folks, the devil will be in the detail and it ain't going to be in anyone's favor but Marriott...

 

[cruisin]

Folks, the devil will be in the detail and it ain't going to be in anyone's favor but Marriott...

That is 100% accurate. Marriott has done a better job than most making the owners feel like they are important, the economy has forced them to show their true colors.

 

[Latravel]

...I see lots of issues with the potential program... I think it will be very hard to totally revamp a functioning system.

How could you see problems when we haven't seen the program yet?

I'm sure all those high priced Marriott experts whose education and experience revolves around this type of development have thought of all the things we could possibly think of.

 

[Beverley]

I'm sure all those high priced Marriott experts whose education and experience revolves around this type of development have thought of all the things we could possibly think of.

Can't say I'm so sure they will have thought of everything. Their ideas will likely be skewed to the corporate advantage not the owner advantage.

Beverley

 

[Beverley]

We had points and I do not like them. Someone has to give up a week for that week to go into points when they join . What happens if several owners do not want the point system, alot less weeks for point owners. When you purchase points, you give up your deed. I have seen some points resorts where the M F"s went up alot. There has been several good points made with this thread. You will have to wait and see. Think about it. Would you trade for points and give up your deed. We use our week each and do not trade it. As it was pointed out, if you have a week you may not have enough points to trade where you want to vacation. Also, over time, I have seen the points value go down. How will you handle that. A week is still a week.

You raise some very good points.

I am unwilling to give up my deed .... period!! I agree what ever point system is developed that it will likely be devalued over time as that seems to be a pattern with reward points. Other point systems (WorldMark and Hilton) haven't changed the amount of points/ credits needed for a resort once established, however, as new ones are built the credit values have increased and thereby the points do not go as far.

I am not a fan of points systems either, although I have a small interest in World Mark and Hilton. I bought Marriott because I thought their system was the best the system offered when considering all the locations and the reward point options .. If they go to points and create havoc, I will not still think they are the best.

Beverley

 

[DanCali]

My how sentiment has changed in one day... :

That is 100% accurate. Marriott has done a better job than most making the owners feel like they are important, the economy has forced them to show their true colors.

If they go to points and create havoc, I will not still think they are the best.

It seems like just yesterday everyone was singing "Kumbaya"...:

Very well said. I may be foolish but I believe Marriott will put out a good product IF they decide to go that route. Based on their past performance, they are doing something right...

I agree with you two, Doug and Heidi. I think it will be interesting (and maybe a little exciting, too ) to see what Marriott might roll out here.

Are we all talking about the same topic???