Speculation About Marriott's New Timeshare Structure [merged]

[NJMOM2]

Hey, how many MVCI owners want to go to Grand Ocean for 4th of July week? I just checked Marriott.com and there is availability for July 3rd check in for 7 night at $550 per night for a courtyard view. No AAA availablity, no Marriott reward reservations availablity, no Getaways and no exchange availability. I know my exchange request for HHI never came through for ANY day for Summer 2010! Makes you wonder.

 

[hipslo]

Hey, how many MVCI owners want to go to Grand Ocean for 4th of July week? I just checked Marriott.com and there is availability for July 3rd check in for 7 night at $550 per night for a courtyard view. No AAA availablity, no Marriott reward reservations availablity, no Getaways and no exchange availability. I know my exchange request for HHI never came through for ANY day for Summer 2010! Makes you wonder.

This could always be from folks who reserved that week and then turned it back to Marriott in the rental program.

 

[taffy19]

Very amusing!

I've followed the other thread some, but haven't been pulled into the speculation. I figure I'll wait until the details are released then evaluate the new program. We need a new computer, but even if we didn't I doubt I'd pay $1,499 to convert to the new program.

I thought that the price was $595 or $695 for multiple weeks. That was posted earlier. If the price is $1,499, that is practically double.

It looks like the rumors I heard in March were right even with the dates of training but I keep thinking about one statement that was made to me about something rolling out in the fall and I wonder now if it will be the very first new resort that Marriott will introduce with points only. Where would that be?

 

[tombo]

I actually thought it would be higher than $1499. Not that I would pay $499 to convert, much less $1499, but I did think it would be higher to make marriott major profit on converting existing owners to points members. Of course if the estimated 20% of owners pony up $1499 to convert, I guess that is major profits, even by Marriott's standards.

 

[tombo]

Everyone is worried where Marriott is going to get the week from when a legacy owner converts to points in a given year. I can't help but wonder where does Marriott currently get the week from for their use when an owner opts to use get Marriott Rewards Points in a given year? Wouldn't it be the same issue?

This is a GREAT question, and one I hadnt thought of before. Anyone know the answer?

As I said in a previous post, it has been said here that Marriott currently owns 60% of the MVC's total inventory. If they own 60%, then they have plenty of weeks/days/ weekends to allocate to anything they want like Marriott reward points, the new upcoming points that will be used by the new points members, and anything else they see fit to use their 60% of the weeks for I assume.

 

[BocaBum99]

$1499 may or may not be bad. It depends on what you get. If it is $1499 per week with no discounts for multiple weeks, then that may be too expensive. It depends on the rest of the program details.

 

[hipslo]

As I said in a previous post, it has been said here that Marriott currently owns 60% of the MVC's total inventory. If they own 60%, then they have plenty of weeks/days/ weekends to allocate to anything they want like Marriott reward points, the new upcoming points that will be used by the new points members, and anything else they see fit to use their 60% of the weeks for I assume.

While that may be the case generically, it is not the case on a resort by resort basis. For example, mountainside has been 100% sold out (other than the occasional week picked up via rofr) for a number of years. And yet, there is often availability on marriott.com to rent even the most desireable ski weeks directly from marriott (for big bucks). Where do these weeks come from?

The two potential sources are (i) owners who turn their weeks in for points, and (ii) owners who reserve a week and then turn the reserved week in for rent.

The question is, as to owners who turn in their week for points, who are NOT first required to make a reservation for the week prior to turning it in, how does marriott determine which week has been turned in, that it can then rent on marriott.com?

 

[SueDonJ]

While that may be the case generically, it is not the case on a resort by resort basis. For example, mountainside has been 100% sold out (other than the occasional week picked up via rofr) for a number of years. And yet, there is often availability on marriott.com to rent even the most desireable ski weeks directly from marriott (for big bucks). Where do these weeks come from?

The two potential sources are (i) owners who turn their weeks in for points, and (ii) owners who reserve a week and then turn the reserved week in for rent.

The question is, as to owners who turn in their week for points, who are NOT first required to make a reservation for the week prior to turning it in, how does marriott determine which week has been turned in, that it can then rent on marriott.com?

Considering that Marriott generally has the right to reserve Use Periods on the same basis as Owners (SurfWatch, for example, does not allow Marriott to utilize the 13-mo rule as a multi-week owner can,) wouldn't Marriott be able to choose from the available inventory on the day that an interval is released by an exchange for MRP?

 

[hipslo]

Considering that Marriott generally has the right to reserve Use Periods on the same basis as Owners (SurfWatch, for example, does not allow Marriott to utilize the 13-mo rule as a multi-week owner can,) wouldn't Marriott be able to choose from the available inventory on the day that an interval is released by an exchange for MRP?

I don't know. But if they are directly competing with owners to make reservations, given that they also happen to control the reservation system, isnt there at least the concern that they would have the first crack at the most desireable weeks, as a practical matter?

Like I said, I have never thought about this question before, but it seems like some of the "prime" weeks could be sucked out of the system this way. If so, then why wouldnt the new points system potentially exacerbate such a concern?

 

[SueDonJ]

I don't know. But if they are directly competing with owners to make reservations, given that they also happen to control the reservation system, isnt there at least the concern that they would have the first crack at the most desireable weeks, as a practical matter?

Like I said, I have never thought about this question before, but it seems like some of the "prime" weeks could be sucked out of the system this way. If so, then why wouldnt the new points system potentially exacerbate such a concern?

I'll tell you, more and more reading TUG I get the impression that either I place way too much stock in the total lack of legitimate, proven allegations against Marriott of bad business practices, or some of you are only too willing to believe that Marriott WILL engage in bad business practices unless we keep eighty-seventeen pairs of eyes on them at all times.

Of course if Marriott is entitled to reserve at least some inventory on the same basis as every other owner, then it stands to reason that owners can at some point be in competition with Marriott for the same inventory. But why all of a sudden do we think that they're going to manipulate the inventory or the reservation process to give themselves more than the equal footing they have? And if you don't have knowledge of them doing it up to this point, why would you expect it from here on out?

I don't get it. We're all Marriott owners. We've all been playing right along with them by the rules for a number of years, and none of us has ever been able to post on TUG that there is evidence of Marriott engaging in wrong-doing. I don't even remember any posts questioning whether wrong-doing of the magnitude speculated in this thread might have been happening! The level of suspicion here is just mind-boggling.

 

[m61376]

It seems we are over-complicating the issue of a need for separate inventory or not. I don't see it being any different than it is now. II allows split weeks, etc. In a sense they have a "separate inventory" pool of weeks, which they then supply in accordance with their rules.

The new points system will simply be an amalgam of "owner's" weeks that have "deposited" their week into the points system. The "owner" will either be legacy owners in the points program or the Marriott points trust. Once the "week" gets into the points program, Marriott supplies them in accordance with the points program rules, no different than II (or Redweek, or rci...).

What people have asked multiple times (and a rational fear) is whether Marriott can allow either legacy owners in the points program, or the Marriott trust, to reserve with any advantage over those not in the points program. The answer to this from a legal prospective is NO.

Whatever form of overlay they employ, they cannot alter your current right to reserve your week, in your season, on the same basis of ANY OTHER DEED HOLDER in your season (this includes the Marriott trust or legacy owner in the points program.) They cannot use their internal computers to reserve to your disadvantage, etc..

The interesting part will be if Marriott contends that the Points Trust owns multiple weeks and is a separate entity from MVCI/"the declarant", thereby giving all those weeks the 13 month advantage. If so, lawsuits will definitely follow.

The only way that I can see them legally employing the system if they reserve in an automated system is to allow non-points users some prior of time to reserve their week (ie. 5 business days), then reserve any weeks for the deeds they hold.

But, this would not leave a lot of great weeks for their program. This would lead to their argument that they can automatically reserve a proportionate amount of available weeks based upon the deeds in the points program. While it seems fair and equitable, my opinion is that it would be a violation of the covenants. Quite a catch-22.

My head is still spinning....

I understand how inventory could (and hopefully will) be split so that non-converted weeks owners continue business as usual, competing for their fair percentage of non-converted weeks and with other non-converted owners.

BUT- how will legacy point owners reserving in their home resort (using weeks for the year) reserve- from the legacy point owners' + new point owners' pool? And if it is from that pool, does their having home resort priority mean that all other point owners will not be able to reserve at the 12 month mark? Unless they have a third and separate inventory for converted week owners electing to use their owned week, the only way the legacy point owners using their owned week could retain home resort priority was IF all points owners were not allowed to reserve at the 12 month mark. Legacy point owners and point owners could be allowed to reserve at 12 months minus even one day to allow for home resort advantage, but I'm confused as to how they could conceivably be allowed to reserve at the 12 month mark and still have a home resort advantage to those converted owners who elect to use their owned resort.

And I don't foresee Marriott selling a system where every new point owner can reserve anywhere they want to go, but where original owners at the resorts have a more advantageous reservation window than a generic points owner.

I'm sure I am missing something....The only way I see for everyone to be able to reserve at the same 12 month mark is if there are 3 separate inventories- (1)week owners who don't convert, (2) legacy week owners using their ownership weeks and (3)legacy point and new point owners booking wherever. Especially since numbers would constantly be in flux, that could be a nightmare to keep percentages fairly represented.

And, just for the record- once again- shocking as it may be - I agree with Sue- Marriott has been a good company to deal with. For the same reasons even 2 days away I am confident that Marirott will do right by all its owners and have a grandfathering for at least its current resale owners, I am dubious that Marriott will unfairly manipulate the inventory. I'm just trying to understand how it might work.

 

[PerryM]

Ah Geez here we go again; somehow I'm going to be blamed for this thread too...

 

[tombo]

The level of suspicion here is just mind-boggling.

I think Marriott is secretly trying to overthrow the world's monetary system replacing all known currency with the new and improved Marriott points. If you don't have Marriott points you won't be able to vacation, buy petrol, buy food, and lack of available marriott points will cause you to be put in debtor's prison. Marriott's goal is world domination and their points scheme is what they are using to acheive their goal. Yea that's their plan, I am sure about it, and no one is going to convince me otherwise!

 

[taffy19]

An old but important post

I believe that this person is an attorney so I paid attention to his post. To me this proves that there have to be two separate owner pots and may be three eventually for the owners of the all points resorts.

If we convert to the new system, we fall under one or the other set of rules. If you decide to use your Legacy week, you still have all the old rules in tact which includes the 13 months reservation perk if you own multiple weeks. If you decide to get points instead, then you fall under the new set of point rules.

I have no idea which pool would be the best to belong to. The more points you use, the more time you can string together but it was the same for multiple week owners too because the more weeks you owned, the earlier you could make reservations. It may be easier now because there are no exceptions like continuously and whatever the other rules were.

I guess, it is still on a first come first service basis and the competing will be fierce for the best weeks in the seasons.

I wonder what the next change in the industry will be? Give me old fashioned fixed! No messing with your deed.

 

[SueDonJ]

I think Marriott is secretly trying to overthrow the world's monetary system replacing all known currency with the new and improved Marriott points. If you don't have Marriott points you won't be able to vacation, buy petrol, buy food, and lack of available marriott points will cause you to be put in debtor's prison. Marriott's goal is world domination and their points scheme is what they are using to acheive their goal. Yea that's their plan, I am sure about it, and no one is going to convince me otherwise!

Oh. Well. World Domination. Gee. That's way different than trying to beat out an owner for a July 4th week next year.

:hysterical: :hysterical:

 

[hipslo]

Of course if Marriott is entitled to reserve at least some inventory on the same basis as every other owner, then it stands to reason that owners can at some point be in competition with Marriott for the same inventory. But why all of a sudden do we think that they're going to manipulate the inventory or the reservation process to give themselves more than the equal footing they have?

What do you mean by "more than the equal footing they have"? In a first come, first serve system?

I am not suggesting that there is, or will be, any manipulation occuring. I am just trying to understand how, as a practical matter, the system is actually implemented, currently, when marriott and its owners are in competition with one another for reservations. The answer to this question seems relevant, given that the competition may be about to increase dramatically.

Trust is good, and to date, by and large, has seemed warranted, but facts are even better.

Does anyone know the answer to this?

 

[SueDonJ]

... And, just for the record- once again- shocking as it may be - I agree with Sue- Marriott has been a good company to deal with. For the same reasons even 2 days away I am confident that Marirott will do right by all its owners and have a grandfathering for at least its current resale owners, I am dubious that Marriott will unfairly manipulate the inventory. I'm just trying to understand how it might work.

I think it's a Red Letter day, m - we've agreed with each other so much lately that we're practically best friends now.

Questioning how Marriott will make all this work, that makes sense to me. Expecting that Marriott will rip us all off blind and step all over us to gain their World Domination (ha!), that doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[SueDonJ]

What do you mean by "more than the equal footing they have"? In a first come, first serve system?

I am not suggesting that there is, or will be, any manipulation occuring. I am just trying to understand how, as a practical matter, the system is actually implemented, currently, when marriott and its owners are in competition with one another for reservations. The answer to this question seems relevant, given that the competition may be about to increase dramatically.

Trust is good, and to date, by and large, has seemed warranted, but facts are even better.

Does anyone know the answer to this?

I would expect that currently they can access the reservation inventory the same way owners can - through the same website or on the same telephone line at exactly 9AM sharp on the days the 12-month windows open (or 13-month windows, if the contracts at any resorts allow it.) In the absence of any hint that they've ever done it in a different fashion, I'm just not willing to accuse them of doing so.

 

[m61376]

I think it's a Red Letter day, m - we've agreed with each other so much lately that we're practically best friends now.

Questioning how Marriott will make all this work, that makes sense to me. Expecting that Marriott will rip us all off blind and step all over us to gain their World Domination (ha!), that doesn't make any sense at all.

:hysterical:
Even though it's still a bit of speculation, at least for me having some understanding of how Marriott could design a manageable and equitable system would be a good tool for evaluating what they roll out.

I also hope that, although presumably Sunday is the roll out day, that there is a 3 month hiatus of sorts- so that business will be as usual during the peak summer month reservation season and that they don't institute a more complex reservation system until September, giving everyone time to assimilate, staff to become adept, and rolling out the practical parts (ie- beginning the new reservations) at a time where there is little if any peak demand system wide. I dain to imagine a new reservation system beginning during some of the busiest weeks of the year at many, if not most, properties.

 

[davidvel]

I believe that this person is an attorney so I paid attention to his post. To me this proves that there have to be two separate owner pots and may be three eventually for the owners of the all points resorts.

If we convert to the new system, we fall under one or the other set of rules. If you decide to use your Legacy week, you still have all the old rules in tact which includes the 13 months reservation perk if you own multiple weeks. If you decide to get points instead, then you fall under the new set of point rules.

I have no idea which pool would be the best to belong to. The more points you use, the more time you can string together but it was the same for multiple week owners too because the more weeks you owned, the earlier you could make reservations. It may be easier now because there are no exceptions like continuously and whatever the other rules were.

I guess, it is still on a first come first service basis and the competing will be fierce for the best weeks in the seasons.

I wonder what the next change in the industry will be? Give me old fashioned fixed! No messing with your deed.

The clarification that I would make is not that there won't be separate pots/pools/groups of weeks. (These exist now: weeks that marriott owns; weeks transferred to II; weeks transferred to Redweek; Weeks returned for points; weeks reserved and retained by owners).

My point is that according to the governing documents those pools OF RESERVED AND CONFIRMED ACTUAL WEEKS have to be created AFTER the week is reserved according to the governing documents.

 

[jcjl1]

What will happen to legacy owners who banked a week in II for a trade back to their home in 2011. I see no Ko Olina in May / June. As a courtesy shouldn't those be availabble to the Legacy owners? To clarify, it is an expiring July 4th week from a year ago.

 

[m61376]

The clarification that I would make is not that there won't be separate pots/pools/groups of weeks. (These exist now: weeks that marriott owns; weeks transferred to II; weeks transferred to Redweek; Weeks returned for points; weeks reserved and retained by owners).

My point is that according to the governing documents those pools OF RESERVED AND CONFIRMED ACTUAL WEEKS have to be created AFTER the week is reserved according to the governing documents.

But doesn't the percentage have to be created beforehand so the availability of reservations can be determined? I guess the semantics are important, but essentially whether we are talking about pools of availability to reserve or actual pools of weeks, aren't we essentially referring to the same thing?

 

[pwrshift]

Years ago I bought Beachplace...and my rep called about a year later to say, for $1500 per week current owners could join the new Florida Club...the spin on it seemed great. I joined and it was totally useless to me. So, for a dollar less I can get THIS brand new benefit? Fool me once ...

Brian

 

[jimf41]

I don't get it. You folks are all so negative. Enough with the negative vibes. $1499 isn't a lot but it's enough to get me to enroll my plat weeks in the new system. If they want the Plat plus week they're going to have to pay me more than that though.

 

[davidvel]

But doesn't the percentage have to be created beforehand so the availability of reservations can be determined? I guess the semantics are important, but essentially whether we are talking about pools of availability to reserve or actual pools of weeks, aren't we essentially referring to the same thing?

No. The semantics and specific processes are crucial. You have to distinguish weeks that have yet to be reserved (ie just a potential reservation in your season) vs. a confirmed RESERVED week. This is the important distinction that many are blurring.

It is my (legal) opinion that any process that sets up percentages to determine reservations violates the covenants. This is based upon a reading of the covenants.

If Marriott owns or controls certain weeks they have to reserve just like any other owner (except they don't get 13 mo. priority) with no built-in advantage or automatic allocation, then put that RESERVED week into its points program.

My post above which refers to a "catch 22" illustrates the problem.