RIPPED OFF BY HGVC? HELP!

[PGRIF]

Be careful, because I suspect that HGVC will only try to sell you more. They do this EVERY owners update.

I only assume as much. They already tried that with me. I’ll be cut and dry with them. I am going to frankly tell them we can’t afford it and will they buy it back per the “by back” as they have stated. Wish me luck.


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[PGRIF]

This may be a long shot but I am willing to give some of my points if not all for guidance in this matter for a phone call…
Not whatsoever saying the written responses are not adequate! I am just at my wits end…


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[alwysonvac]

Hello all! I planned on responding on each and every one of these personally until I lost track. I can’t believe the comradely here! I don’t feel so helpless. Y’all are amazing! I appreciate each and every person who took the time to read this thread. Being a 28 yr old newlywed, my husband and I saw the stars… this was an extremely emotional (and intoxicated) decision we made. As of now HGV has been trying to contact me (phone tag because of holidays) I hope to talk to them next week. What we will discuss… I’m still unsure. I know the facts of the matter but still see I was deceived and we shouldn’t have been drinking. Either way I appreciate all the great advice! I will take all into account! After I speak to them I will let you know the positive negative or other response! Much love!


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Happy you came back

IMPORTANT
2022 points will expire at December 31, 2022, at 11:59 p.m. ET unless you pay ($189) to bank them for another year!
NOTE: Bonus points are typically good for two years.

Step by step tutorial

Hilton Grand Vacations - Manage My Points

Hilton Grand Vacations is committed to the idea that life is incomplete without vacations. Our distinctive resort collection features luxurious accommodations in renowned destinations with the quality service that is synonymous with the Hilton name.

club.hiltongrandvacations.com

 

[GT75]

I was going to add to my post, but noticed that @dougp26364 said what I was going to say (but much than I would have said). I will add that you also have bonus points from your purchase. Let starts planning vacations with those. We can help with that too. But the way timeshares work is you must planning ahead and book to get the best availability. In general, the club window opens 9-months (276-days), before check-out, so this is when you are going to find the best availability.

I just saw that @alwysonvac posted about saving your 2022 points into 2023. Since you haven’t used them, you must save them or you will loose them TODAY.

Edited to add: You have 2560 pts (2022) to save into 2023. But these points must be used in 2023. What I would suggest is plan a big trip in 2023 to use all of your 2022 and 2023 pts (so at least 5120 pts or even more). The reason is that it cost to save points but free to borrow points. Then you also have those bonus points to use before they expire.

 

[alwysonvac]

@GT75 I was thinking the same thing. They need to start working on their 2023 trip.
Maybe a one year anniversary trip to Hawaii or take advantage of the latest resort specials (depending on availability).



The 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation is only valid for any new reservations booked from the time of receiving this offer through February 12th, 2023.

​

The discounts by resort are as follows:

​

LAS VEGAS​

Elara, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

The Boulevard, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

HAWAII​

Hokulani Waikiki, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

The Grand Islander, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

Grand Waikikian, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

The Bay Club, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

Kohala Suites, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

Kings' Land, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

Ocean Tower, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

SOUTH CAROLINA​

Anderson Ocean Club, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

Ocean Enclave, a Hilton Grand Vacations Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

NEW YORK​

West 57th Street, a Hilton Club​

• 25% off HGV ClubPoints required to make a reservation from January 7, 2023, through May 12, 2023.

 

[dayooper]

UPDATED:

The buildings are basically the same with the exception of number of floors. I think the first 2 buildings are 5 floors, the last is 7 floors, and the rest are 6 floors. The bldg numbers are sequential and were built in order (1-7) so bldg 1 is the oldest. Building 1 starts by the main pool, buildings 4 and 5 face each other on the opposite end where the adult pool is and buildings 5-7 are across the lake but you can use the bridge. We stayed in building 1 once and it was nice to be by the main pool but understandably noisy.

Some buildings have 3brs (studio lockoff with a true 2br) at the back on each side, the others instead have 2 1brs on each side in the back - so since you have a 3br you will not have much of a lake view and you have a true 2br and a studio lockoff. We really liked the 3br setup -the master has a nice large shower and the second br has twin beds - then the normal lockoff studio. It seems i remember there is an extra bathroom too since the master bath is not really accessible except to the master br. The twin beds helped with more people too. I am pretty sure that the 3brs are in buildings 1. 2 and 7. We did 3brs often with family and usually requested building 7 - the back of that building is not exactly next to another building so it has more open space so a bit more light.

I am not a fan of the 1st floor rooms, they are a bit musty like most other places with a ground floor.

We never did a sales tour without getting our rooms included - but I suspect they will do credits. The last few "owners updates" were so brutal we will not do that again.

Sounds like we might be requesting building 7. We don’t do sales tours and usually aren’t asked. Then again we have mainly gone to South Carolina resorts and they usually don’t ask resale only to go.

 

[alwysonvac]

HGVC studios are like hotel rooms. They work well for singles and/or couples who don’t plan to spend much time in their room and/or don’t need the extra space.

Definitely take a look at the resort point charts and decide where you would like to go.
You can bank and borrow and stretch your points by planning your stay during lower demand weeks (Gold and Silver seasons). You can use open season rates for last minute travel when it’s cheaper than Hilton.com rates.
NOTE: New point charts will come out on 1/1/2023. Open Season rates can change each year.

FOR EXAMPLE

 

[andre10056]

In October of 2022 we signed for a HGVC in Las Vegas for Elara. The total cost was about $15,000 and we get 2560 points a year. Everything sounded good until we logged in and realized that 2560 points doesn't get you much of anything! Definitely not the "about 10 days" we were sold. Do I not know how to use the website or did we get completely ripped off? Either way we tried to get out of it and no one will return my phone call. The one woman I spoke to only tried to sell me more points. We need to get out of this! PLEASE HELP US!

The only thing I disagreed with (or the thing I most disagreed with) was the advice given to you to "forget an attorney, you're only going to throw good money after bad".

Ordinarily, I'd agree. But let's face it. You (and I believe 99% of all non-resale purchasers) have been defrauded. What was alleged that you would be getting was a lie/were lies. They likely glossed over that part about an annual maintenance fee as well. When you've been defrauded, that's PRECISELY the domain of attorneys. Moreover, everyone (certainly the average judge) knows full well about timeshare fraud.

However, if they ask for $2000, $3000 upfront to represent you, I'd agree that it's money that will LIKELY not be well spent.

But what if you don't spend a dime upfront?

So I did a search for "Nevada timeshare attorneys". And came up with multiple "hits", including this one:

Nevada Timeshare Lawyers - No Upfront Fees - A+ BBB Rating | The Law Offices of Kenneth H. Dramer, P.C.

Experienced Timeshare Lawyers. NO UPFRONT FEES. Cancel Your Timeshare or Don't Pay a Fee. You Have Nothing To Lose Except Your Timeshare. FREE CONSULTATIONS.

dramerlaw.com

Only $1950 if we succeed? No upfront fees? I'd say it's worth a call. If nothing else, your initial phone call will make you far more knowledgeable about what might possibly be done.

And that Dramer debt and collection specialist firm is only one of many. I know nothing about them and am certainly not recommending anyone. I leave it to you to do your due diligence and find one that might best work for you.

 

[pedro47]

New Years Resolution. Hilton please clean up this mess.

 

[Talent312]

Hilton please clean up this mess.

If HGVC had any interest in reigning in the deceptive practices of TS sales-weasels, they would have done so long before now.
-----------------------
Sorry, but HGVC can rely on a well-written contract, point to that, and say, "All representations to which we (and you) are bound is contained with the four corners of this document." The "parol evidence rule" excludes the use of prior or contemporaneous inconsistent statements in disputes over contracts.

"Information leading up to or during a contract that is not included in writing is considered inadmissible evidence and is excluded from the jury. The jury will therefore only look at the writing within the document itself to decide a contract dispute." -- Source: Cornell Law School.
-------------------
Otherwise, nearly everyone would sue every merchant claiming they were told something.

 

[heitmullerj02]

although the points are small, you could pull next years in ( 2024 into 2023) and combine the total to get a better stay which included a weekend. There is no fee with HGVC to pull the points forward just your trade fee, use it like an every other year property.

 

[andre10056]

If HGVC had any interest in reigning in the deceptive practices of TS sales-weasels, they would have done so long before now.

-----------------------
Sorry, but HGVC can rely on it's well-written contract, point to that, and say, all representations to which we (and you) are bound is contained with the four corners of this document. The "parol evidence rule" excludes the use of prior or contemporaneous inconsistent statements.

Information leading up to or during a contract that is not included in writing is considered inadmissible evidence and is excluded from the jury. The jury will therefore only look at the writing within the document itself to decide a contract dispute. -- Source: Cornell Law School.
-------------------
Otherwise, nearly everyone would sue every merchant claiming they were told something.

 

[andre10056]

Let's not give out legal advice, shall we? Especially since I assume few of us have taken even a single law school class.

The law is not the application of simplistic rules for robots. There are apparently MANY exceptions to the parol evidence rule, the most notable of which apparently are:

From the cited website:

".......here is the list of the important exceptions under which evidence normally excluded by the parol evidence rule can be admitted:

1. To resolve ambiguities in the contract or to otherwise assist in interpreting a term of the contract
2. To show that a term in the contract is a mistake
3. To show that fraud, duress, unconscionable behavior, or tortious interference with contract occurred
4. To show that consideration was never paid
5. To identify the parties or subject matter of the contract
6. To modify the contract after its has been signed by all parties, if the contract explicitly allows for that"

Exceptions to the parol evidence rule in contracts | Legal Blog

The parol evidence rule does exclude much evidence from contract disputes in court, but there are a large number of exceptions to the rule.

legal.thomsonreuters.com

I suggest all timeshare owners take a look at #3. I would assume that many (all?) judges would indeed admit (and would do so all day long) any evidence pertaining to "fraud, duress, unconscionable behavior", especially since "everybody" knows that fraud, duress, and unconscionable behavior are ALWAYS characteristics of developer/resort salesman timeshare sales.

 

[andre10056]

And yes, the parol evidence rule may often be applied. The judge may say, "I see no reason to make any inquiry or do any other fact finding than what's in the "four corners of the contract"".

But let's take an extreme scenario.

Ten Catholic priests, ten Baptist ministers, ten Episcopalian ministers, ten Jewish rabbis, ten Muslim clerics, etc., etc. are all in the same room (perhaps a convention hall) and witness your being forced to sign a horrendously unfair contract at gunpoint.

Do you REALLY envision the judge, confronted with all these credible witnesses who are champing at the bit to testify, saying "the parol evidence rule always (100% of the time) applies and all I can do is look at the four corners of the contract"???!!!

Maybe, but there's a better than even chance that the "duress" part of Exception #3 may possibly perhaps maybe apply.

 

[BingoBangoBongo]

HGVC studios are like hotel rooms. They work well for singles and/or couples who don’t plan to spend much time in their room and/or don’t need the extra space.

Definitely take a look at the resort point charts and decide where you would like to go.
You can bank and borrow and stretch your points by planning your stay during lower demand weeks (Gold and Silver seasons). You can use open season rates for last minute travel when it’s cheaper than Hilton.com rates.
NOTE: New point charts will come out on 1/1/2023. Open Season rates can change each year.

FOR EXAMPLE

View attachment 70845​

View attachment 70844​

I've got one 3BR and three studios booked at SeaWorld towards the end of January. Some of the nights fall under the last promo and I am using 694 points for a 4 night booking (Mon-Thurs), 914 points for a 3 night booking (Weds-Fri) and 1280 points for another 3 night booking (Thurs -Sun). That last booking includes a weekend night I don't need, but with the 3 night minimum it is the only way I could book rooms for my group. All told I have 7 nights in a 3BR and 10 nights in Studios and using a total of 9688 points. Using my MF rate of $.10/point that works out to be about $57/night. I also pay for AI, so no reservation fees charged on these. YMMV.

 

[GTLINZ]

Is it really a great system though?


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I have always been treated well by the HGVC reps and also at the resorts. You get used to the quality and to being treated like an owner (and yes, I bought resale). I have planned and taken trips I likely would not have otherwise and believe it was cheaper in the long run than rack rates (and much better to have a kitchen, a lanai, etc). It was fun to plan trying out different HGVC locations.

Most folks here would agree with HGVC being a good system. Most would also agree that it is hard to understand how most on the sales staff can sleep at night selling you something of almost no resale value at a very inflated price (which is what they did to you).

So to your point, when you look at it as a whole, it is for sure not all great.

 

[chapjim]

And yes, the parol evidence rule may often be applied. The judge may say, "I see no reason to make any inquiry or do any other fact finding than what's in the "four corners of the contract"".

But let's take an extreme scenario.

Ten Catholic priests, ten Baptist ministers, ten Episcopalian ministers, ten Jewish rabbis, ten Muslim clerics, etc., etc. are all in the same room (perhaps a convention hall) and witness your being forced to sign a horrendously unfair contract at gunpoint.

Do you REALLY envision the judge, confronted with all these credible witnesses who are champing at the bit to testify, saying "the parol evidence rule always (100% of the time) applies and all I can do is look at the four corners of the contract"???!!!

Maybe, but there's a better than even chance that the "duress" part of Exception #3 may possibly perhaps maybe apply.

Who will be OP's witnesses? Your hypothetical is absurd.

 

[andre10056]

Who will be OP's witnesses? Your hypothetical is absurd.

Obviously, I (in my yesterday 5:15 post) was responding to the post immediately before mine (the yesterday 5:05 post) in which the poster implied that, in all circumstances, the parol evidence rule applies. All judges are allegedly bound by this rule, according to such poster, and can NEVER consider anything but the "four corners of the contract".

Hence, to illustrate that the poster might be incorrect about that, and that there are MANY exceptions to the parol evdidence rule, I came up with the admittedly extreme, comical, and unrealistic hypothetical. Clearly, all judges can decide for themselves if "all" they're going to consider are the "four corners of the contract" under all of the circumstances....or perhaps consider things outside of those four corners.

The OP should know (as I pointed out in that same yesterday 5:15 post), that FRAUD, DURESS, OR UNCONSCIONABLE BEHAVIOR (which we all know are hallmarks of resort salesman timeshare sales) CAN indeed be considered by a judge, and likely WILL be.

Please refrain from confronting anyone for allegedly posting "absurdity" unless you understand the obvious context. Maybe read the prior post(s) to be able to recognize such context.

 

[chapjim]

Obviously, I (in my yesterday 5:15 post) was responding to the post immediately before mine (the yesterday 5:05 post) in which the poster implied that, in all circumstances, the parol evidence rule applies. All judges are allegedly bound by this rule, according to such poster, and can NEVER consider anything but the "four corners of the contract".

Hence, to illustrate that the poster might be incorrect about that, and that there are MANY exceptions to the parol evdidence rule, I came up with the admittedly extreme, comical, and unrealistic hypothetical. Clearly, all judges can decide for themselves if "all" they're going to consider are the "four corners of the contract" under all of the circumstances....or perhaps consider things outside of those four corners.

The OP should know (as I pointed out in that same yesterday 5:15 post), that FRAUD, DURESS, OR UNCONSCIONABLE BEHAVIOR (which we all know are hallmarks of resort salesman timeshare sales) CAN indeed be considered by a judge, and likely WILL be.

Please refrain from confronting anyone for allegedly posting "absurdity" unless you understand the obvious context. Maybe read the prior post(s) to be able to recognize such context.

. . . can be considered if there is evidence of it.

I was never taught that the parol evidence rule was anything but a good starting point in the analysis. Very often the ending as well.

I doubt that in the history of contract litigation against timeshare companies, there has ever been a judgment for the plaintiff when the plaintiff had nothing more than a bare allegation of fraud, duress, or unconscionable conduct. The judge will look at the terms of the contract that the plaintiff signed agreeing that no promises were made other than those in the contract. Unless the plaintiff recorded the session or has a witness, not party to the contract, who was present, it will be judgment for the defense. Plaintiff to pay costs and defendant's legal fees.

 

[andre10056]

. . . can be considered if there is evidence of it.

I was never taught that the parol evidence rule was anything but a good starting point in the analysis. Very often the ending as well.

I doubt that in the history of contract litigation against timeshare companies, there has ever been a judgment for the plaintiff when the plaintiff had nothing more than a bare allegation of fraud, duress, or unconscionable conduct. The judge will look at the terms of the contract that the plaintiff signed agreeing that no promises were made other than those in the contract. Unless the plaintiff recorded the session or has a witness, not party to the contract, who was present, it will be judgment for the defense. Plaintiff to pay costs and defendant's legal fees.

You're already presupposing that a defrauded timeshare purchaser "had nothing more than a bare allegation of fraud, duress, or unconscionable conduct".

What if he and his wife and two of his friends were watching/listening to the presentation?

What if he sent an email to his adult son reviewing all the "wonderful" characteristics of what he was told moments after the presentation/purchase?

What if he had in his possession the written notes the timeshare salesperson (i.e., the crook) wrote during the presentation as the crook tried to convince the prospective purchaser to buy?

What if he brought in as a witness another timeshare sales presentee (maybe even a person who just wanted discount coupons but did not buy...maybe someone the defrauded party met and befriended while at the resort) who testified that the salesperson had told him exactly those same untrue things?

What if the judge applies the principal of "res ipsa loquitur" ("the thing speaks for itself") when he sees how little the timeshare purchaser got for an enormous amount of money?

And what if the judge, already well aware of how evil timeshare sales people might be, simply believes the defrauded timeshare purchaser? Isn't that what a trial is all about? A fact finder being able to listen to and see whomever testifies and come to his/her own conclusions about whom to believe?

Why are you so intent in telling the OP, "Too bad. You're f'ed. Forget about even talking to an attorney who may offer (1) a free consultation and (2) offer no upfront fees and (3) a $1950 fee only if they're successful because you've got absolutely no chance"?

Perhaps you were defrauded and misery loves company. Hence, your advising others there's nothing you can do.

 

[GT75]

Thread locked.