Proposed internal exchange program and restrictions on resale weeks

[PerryM]

Leftovers are just yesterdays discards heated up...

...
8. Marriott already tried an internal trade, the Florida Club. For the most part, it is a failure. Why would this be any better?
...

The Florida Club, a great idea that was a terrible idea!

Seth is right – the Florida Club was an experiment that seems to have gone bad. When we owned our Grande Vista that was the big push – 6 months before check-in you become an owner of ALL the Marriotts in the Florida Club.

Well as you can guess 6 months from a check-in has little availability – the Florida Club was a sales gimmick and an experiment that soured.

So Marriott has a history of picking sales gimmicks that fail – will an internal owner-to-owner be a failure too? If I had to guess it will be a miserable failure like the Florida Club. Reheating leftovers is still just yesterdays unwanted food warmed up.

 

[Dave M]

Dave,
I have spoken to many of the other brokers, as well as my contacts in Marriott, and the other brokers have spoken to their contacts at Marriott. No one has been able to confirm what is being posted.

That doesn't surprise me at all. However, I'll stand by my statements and the reliability of the information I have received. It’s to be expected that key Marriott people will refuse to confirm the existence of this project, as you have found. What is to be gained by causing the very near panic (e.g., re resales) that might result? Just read this thread!!

I believe my track record for reporting accurately various coming events such as this is unbroken. There's always a first time for being wrong.... You are more than welcome to assume this will be that time.

They have brought up a number of questions though:
1. If this is to be begin with usage early 2009, as people can book 1 year to 13 months in advance, wouldn't they have to start depositing their weeks immediately for early 2009 units?

Who said this is to begin with "usage early 2009"? I certainly didn't. My statement was (in bold print in the first post in this thread):

My latest information indicates that the new system will be implemented by January 1, 2009.

In order for the new system to be available for January 2009 trades, it would have to be implemented (i.e., put in place so it can be used) by the end of this month. That won't happen.

2. [etc.] If Marriott ...? [etc.]

.....

We have also been trying to get answers to the questions above, and cannot get answers.

Why am I not surprised? My understanding is that many of the issues you raised have not been resolved. Keep in mind that this new system is likely to be about a year away from being implemented.

Based on your questions about II, it would appear that you have missed some of my earlier posts in this thread. You might want to go back and read them for a better understanding of the situation. I won't repeat everything here other than to again state that Marriott is not dumping II. Marriott will work closely with II - under a new contract - and will utilize II's exchange system for its internal trades.

Thus, it doesn't take much creativity to figure out that Marriott and II have resolved or will resolve most or all of the "how can this work?" issues involving ACs, request-first, requesting exchanges for both Marriotts and non-Marriotts, Flexchange and some of the other issues you have raised.

Will everything be just as it is now? Of course not. Will all of us be happy with the changes? Of course not. But Marriott isn't stupid. They obviously wouldn't adopt a new system that no one wants to use. They will resolve those issues.

 

[BocaBum99]

Dave,
I have spoken to many of the other brokers, as well as my contacts in Marriott, and the other brokers have spoken to their contacts at Marriott. No one has been able to confirm what is being posted. They have brought up a number of questions though:
1. If this is to be begin with usage early 2009, as people can book 1 year to 13 months in advance, wouldn't they have to start depositing their weeks immediately for early 2009 units?
2. If Marriott is going to give any difference in ability to trade, how are they going to deal with Hawaii, Arizona and a few other state laws that prohibit that (as Weston just made those states mandatory)?
3. Interval International offers bonus certificates for many Marriott deposits. How will Marriott compete with that?
4. Interval International will often offer upgrades (have a studio trade for a 1 bedroom or 1 bedroom trade for 2 bedroom). Interval does this because they have a number of people who deposit but don't book. Marriott cannot count on that with a brand new exchange process. How would they compete?
5. Many Marriott owners don't trade for other Marriotts. How would Marriott compete with that? or would they just recommend trading through Interval?
6. Many people like the request first option. Would Marriott have that option?
7. Many people want to be able to request various properties, both Marriott and non- Marriott. How can this happen?
8. Marriott already tried an internal trade, the Florida Club. For the most part, it is a failure. Why would this be any better?
9. Why would Interval International permit Marriott to set up their own program if this would potentially cost them about Fifty Million dollars per year? Wouldn't they set up a tremendous marketing campaign to try to keep their owners. Wouldn't they offer 2 for 1 memberships, bonus certificates and reduced exchange fees?
Sorry for being so pessimistic, but we (me and about 25 other broker/agents) have been trying to have anyone at Marriott corroborate the information posted and cannot. We have also been trying to get answers to the questions above, and cannot get answers.

Seth,

These are great questions. The only way that Marriott can realistically pull this internal exchange program is by fiat or by creating an overlay program.

Fiat would be the most effective in ensuring long term success. But, the short term problems that would result would be massive. Just imagine 100,000 owners calling Marriott call centers asking the questions you just posed. That is what Marriott would be signing up for with the fiat approach.

Overlay program would be less disruptive, but it would also make it difficult to get conversions. They would have an issue similar to RCI Points.

One thing that Dave M didn't say is that in order for Marriott to make a January 1, 2009 launch date, they need to have a lot in place now since development and test needs to be done. If there isn't a spec now, there is no way they can launch it on Jan 1, 2009. My guess is that they will announce it on Jan 1, 2009 and it will be delayed as everything else is when development is required.

I have thought of another way that Marriott can implement this project. What Marriott can do is require 100% of deposits to be placed with Marriott first. Then, Marriott decides what weeks get deposited into II. They just keep the best stuff for Marriott owners. All this would take is a slightly modified afflilation agreement with II and II can work pretty much the same.

The biggest issue with this would be the anger a Maui MOC owner would have if Marriott deposited a Branson week for trade.

A full overlay point system that is similar to Hyatt would be the best option, in my opinion. That would give Marriott a more competitive product and a reason for owners to upgrade into it. But, this may be too big of a product to swallow all at once. Marriott could first get control of the inventory by controlling all deposits to II. Then, once they have control of the inventory, they can overlay the points program on top.

I believe that Marriott's objective must be more than to simply take over internal exchanges. There is not that much money to be made there. They must be doing this project to make their product more competitive with their point system competitors.

The good news for timeshare brokers is there will be plenty of money to be made assisting customers in the upgrade process. People make a living doing just that in other point systems that were once fixed/floating week oriented.

 

[PerryM]

Good luck Marriott - you'll need it

If Marriott really wants to make a fortune in the exchange business they need to just form another corporation that competes with II and RCI. Make it totally voluntary and allow access to II AND RCI.

Starting over they could implement an exchange system that Marriott owners would flock to and not tinker with the current II setup. Of course I’d suggest a Point system that integrates ALL Marriott units, be they timeshares, hotel rooms, fractional units, or whole ownership units.

But I get the feeling that what Marriott wants is just a sales gimmick – good luck with that Marriott.

 

[Dean]

The Florida Club, a great idea that was a terrible idea!

Seth is right – the Florida Club was an experiment that seems to have gone bad. When we owned our Grande Vista that was the big push – 6 months before check-in you become an owner of ALL the Marriotts in the Florida Club.

Well as you can guess 6 months from a check-in has little availability – the Florida Club was a sales gimmick and an experiment that soured.

So Marriott has a history of picking sales gimmicks that fail – will an internal owner-to-owner be a failure too? If I had to guess it will be a miserable failure like the Florida Club. Reheating leftovers is still just yesterdays unwanted food warmed up.

While I think the FL club and similar split week options are a failure from a usage standpoint, are they from Marriott's standpoint. It's a program that pays for itself by mandatory dues from all that own FL club units and has enticed more than one person to buy that might not have. Obviously common sense tells you that any high demand week is not likely to be available at 6 months out. Last I heard Marriott was still considering expanding the FL club and similar options including the possibility of including HH in the FL club.

 

[PerryM]

While I think the FL club and similar split week options are a failure from a usage standpoint, are they from Marriott's standpoint. It's a program that pays for itself by mandatory dues from all that own FL club units and has enticed more than one person to buy that might not have. Obviously common sense tells you that any high demand week is not likely to be available at 6 months out. Last I heard Marriott was still considering expanding the FL club and similar options including the possibility of including HH in the FL club.

When Ma and Pa signed up for the freebies and the sales tour I doubt they have any insight as to availability of weeks, 52 weeks out (or 13 months) or 6 months out. It's up to the salesreps to paint a picture of "you own ALL Marriotts in the Florida Club at 6 months". At least that's what I remember the sales pitch 5 years ago.

Later we realized that the Florida Club was a sales gimmick and it served its purpose; we bought based partly on the Florida Club idea.

For Gold, Silver, and Bronze weeks the concept of owning more Marriotts at 6 months or heck 11 months makes a lot of sense. Too bad Marriott picked 6 months instead of 11 months.

 

[Dean]

When Ma and Pa signed up for the freebies and the sales tour I doubt they have any insight as to availability of weeks, 52 weeks out (or 13 months) or 6 months out. It's up to the salesreps to paint a picture of "you own ALL Marriotts in the Florida Club at 6 months". At least that's what I remember the sales pitch 5 years ago.

Later we realized that the Florida Club was a sales gimmick and it served its purpose; we bought based partly on the Florida Club idea.

For Gold, Silver, and Bronze weeks the concept of owning more Marriotts at 6 months or heck 11 months makes a lot of sense. Too bad Marriott picked 6 months instead of 11 months.

Then I guess it didn't fail in this case. It's not a program without value but it is a program without a lot of value IMO. I do know of people who have successfully used it including the split week option. One of the uses is getting a reservation at non Orlando properties to deposit into II. This can allow you the chance of getting a higher trader including the chance to trading back in to DVC which blocks other Orlando trades. Though I bet most members of the FL club don't know they can deposit other club resorts in to II.

 

[Pit]

If Marriott really wants to make a fortune in the exchange business they need to just form another corporation that competes with II and RCI.

Why compete with II when they could just buy it? Since II is about to be spun off by its parent company, perhaps we will once again see Marriott take an ownership interest in II. Just speculating here, I have no inside information.

 

[Palguy]

I don't think Marriott wants to be in the trade business per se. They make their money selling and reselling units, buy low and sell high. The profit margin is so much greater there, than the trading business, plus the tremendous amount of overhead and management involved. They want to stack the deck in their favor when it comes to selling more units. In other words make it in your best interest to sell to them low and in the buyers best interest to buy from them high. Nothing with II would have to change, just your ability to pick and choose choice weeks before depositing them for trade. They can sell only platinum in Hawaii for instance, but create 4 levels of it by giving 1st reservation priority to dual and then single unit owners who purchased from the developer and then to dual and single unit owners who purchased resale. Say for instance 15 and 14 months out for Marriott sold units and the current 13 and 12 for resales. That on top of the additional incentives such as points for deposits, and purchase bonuses that are already in place. If you want to insure you get first dibs on vacation choices, and all the other benefits, you buy from the developer. When it is time to sell, your unit may or may not have decreased in value from the changes made to the system, but either way Marriott wins because they can pick what they want at the lowest price (whatever that price may be) by ROFR. Nothing major or at much cost to Marriott, but something more to tip the advantage towards them in selling more units. And if the resale price drops a little because of it, pick them up at a lesser price while they are at it; win win.

Just my 2¢.

 

[PerryM]

Why compete with II when they could just buy it? Since II is about to be spun off by its parent company, perhaps we will once again see Marriott take an ownership interest in II. Just speculating here, I have no inside information.

I believe Marriott sold most or all their interest in II so I don't know how they could justify to their stockholders that the sale was a mistake and now it's a great idea - never happen in my opinion.

Sounds like Marriott is going to tinker around with the current II setup and declare an "Internal owner exchange system" and will do fine - the Marriott sales reps will have plenty of new stories to spin and all will be just fine.

I don't think they are ready to shake up the timeshare world with truly something revolutionary - no need to take the risk; yet.

 

[McFail]

I believe Marriott sold most or all their interest in II so I don't know how they could justify to their stockholders that the sale was a mistake and now it's a great idea - never happen in my opinion.

Well, in recent business history AT&T sold their huge share in Cingular to Bellsouth. Then they waited a few months and bought Bellsouth.

 

[AwayWeGo]

What's In A Name ?

Then they waited a few months and bought Bellsouth.

The way I heard it, it was BellSouth that gobbled up AT&T -- which by then was basically just a cell phone company anyway, a mere shadow of its former self so many years after the forced breakup of Ma Bell. Then, adding insult to injury, BellSouth renamed itself AT&T.

Why not? It bought everything that was left of the whole company, including the famous name & trademark. So now the expanded Baby Bell spin-off unit gets to do business under the famous old parent-company name. Who'd a-thunk?

That's roughly what Nation's Bank did after gobbling up Bank Of America. They scrapped the Nation's Bank name & applied the famous & historic Bank Of America title to the whole combined banking conglomerate after takeover.

Nothing stays the same. Everything changes. Something is lost while something is gained. So it goes.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[thinze3]

Sorry, but it was the baby bell, Soutwestern Bell (SBC), out of San Antonio that bought ATT and decided to change its name to ATT because of the national recognition of ATT's name. Then the new ATT bought BellSouth.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Bell South, Southwestern Bell -- Hard To Keep'm Straight From Back Here.

Sorry, but it was the baby bell, Soutwestern Bell (SBC), out of San Antonio that bought ATT and decided to change its name to ATT because of the national recognition of ATT's name. Then the new ATT bought BellSouth.

Back here in Chesapeake & Potomac Telephone Company territory, renamed Bell Atlantic, re-renamed Verizon, we don't know 1 Baby Bell from another out West. (Some of us don't anyway.) That is to say, to (some of) us benighted easterners, SBC & Bell South might as well be 1 & the same. And now, thanks to the buyouts & consolidation you described, they are -- doing business under Ma Bell's old name. The stockholders must be very proud.

We eastern know-it-alls -- some of us -- can't help embarrassing ourselves with our ignorance of the West. An FFV society lady from Richmond was at a country club event attended by several young college women. She asked 1 girl where she was from.

"Idaho," said the college girl.

The FFV society lady appeared amused.

"Did I say something funny?" the girl asked.

"Oh, no, my dear," the FFV lady said. "It just that here in Virginia we pronounce it Ohio."

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[skisnow&water]

When is a resale a resale?

I'm reading the posts on the speculated Marriott policy changes and would ask this as well. How will Marriott flag a deed in the computer as being resold? If the database has record of a resale trigged by title transfer, this impacts my kids ability to use the timeshare when they inherit the deed (as title passes to them) in the same way as if I had actually sold it to a 3'rd party. Clearly this would conflict with what we are all told when we purchase (directly) from Marriott.
I'm sure resales are frustrating to any company trying to get top dollar for their new units but hopefully Marriott will come to their senses and let the issue drop. Alternatively we can all start gearing up for a very expensive class action suit that would hit them hard enough that they would drop this nonsense.

 

[Dave M]

Resales are already flagged in the Marriott system. There is a big "R" that shows up on the screen. That's how a Marriott rep at Owner Services is supposed to know that the use of a resale week cannot be exchanged for Marriott Rewards points.

Transfers at no cost within a family are treated the same as with the current owner. Examples: divorce and death. Thus, such a transfer doesn't change an original week to a resale week.

 

[pwrshift]

Unfortunately Marriott Rewards doesn't feel any compassion over death (if you're not married or partnered) or divorce with the reward points you've accumulated. From the rules & regs:

Accrued points and miles do not constitute property of the member. Points accrued by a Marriott Rewards member are for the member's benefit only and may not be transferred to anyone. Points are transferable to a legal spouse or partner only in the case of documented death of the member. Points are not transferable to another person for any other reason, including divorce or inheritance.

I would like to think that points you purchased or got in exchange for trading your week's MF for points would remain a family asset, but perhaps not. Greedy greedy. The airlines have a small fee for inheritance transfers.

Brian

 

[sandytoes]

Tour Questions and Answers at Ocean Watch today

We just spend a week at Monarch on Hilton Head Island and are now at Ocean Watch in Myrtle Beach.

One observation to add to the mystery . . . the elevator signs that usually promote the sales tours and offer a choice of either Marriott Vouchers for local attractions/restaurant or points now only mention the vouchers and not the points. I noticed this at Monarch where the tours are for Surf Watch. Last year points were offered and mentioned in all advertisements.

Also on the lists of daily activities at Monarch was a program about learning about Ritz Carlton and using points for the Ritz Carlton . . . we did not attend (got busy and forgot), but this seemed strange to specifically be targeting Ritz Carlton.

Today we took the tour at Ocean Watch on Myrtle Beach. I remembered some of what was being discussed here and asked a couple of questions.

I asked about a new internal exchange program. I was told that since I asked she (the sales rep) was allow to say that the program would becoming out in March. She further said all the sales personnel had been informed but were not supposed to be talking about it unless they were asked. She did not discuss the details but she said a few things I either was not aware of or had not heard before.

I asked if resale purchases and timeshares purchased directly from Marriott would be treated differently in regards to exchanging. She said there is no difference.

According to her, the 24 day Marriott advantage for Marriott deposits and owners does not show up with II on the computer system. When Interval gets a Marriott deposit they are required to hold it for the use of Marriott for 24 days. The only way a Marriott owner finds out about a unit that is in the 24 day window is by talking to your Marriott Adviser. She stressed several times that I should call my adviser and establish a report with my adviser. She indicated this was important. She also said the Marriott desk at II may know about some of the units but not all the units available within the 24 day "hold for Marriott Owners" period. Anyone using the computer will not see those units. Upon reflection, I am wondering if the owner's home resort may have access to the inventory prior to the general Marriott owners who do not own at a Marriott resort they are hoping to exchange into. This may be part of the new program. My next paragraph will shed a little light into why I am thinking this might be a possibility. This is only speculation on my part.

The sales rep also claimed that within the exchange hierarchy it is possible (though not always probable) for a bronze week owner to get a Platinum week at anytime . . .not just within the 59 day period. She stated that all owners at their home resort have priority over all other exchanger who do not own at a certain resort, including Marriott owners exchanging from another Marriott resort in their same season, irregardless of the season they own. So, when you go through the pecking order of Marriott owners in their home resort exchanging into the season they own, giving priority to multiple week owners staying at their home resort, before a week is offered to II, any owner in any season at their home resort has a priority over any other Marriott owner or outside exchanger. Thus, if a bronze owner calls and asks for a platinum week, if one is available it goes to the bronze week owner in their home resort if there are no other high priority request unfulfilled. She said she would not buy a bronze week with the hope of exchanging into a platinum but it does occasionally happen. Hopefully you all will be able to understand what it is I am trying to explain

Let me know your thoughts.. . as if I had to ask

 

[Dean]

Sandy, regarding your last paragraph. I'd agree with what you were told for the most part other than the idea that home resort gives you much of a priority, it is only a tiebreaker. You could apply the same info to trading up in unit size as for the demand of the week. I'd also add that resort quality and overall trade power are still applicable, just a little fuzzy in application in the internal trading system. It will be interesting to see what happens with any changes. To be honest, I think many of the sales reps aren't that well informed about the trading issue.

 

[JimIg23]

According to her, the 24 day Marriott advantage for Marriott deposits and owners does not show up with II on the computer system. When Interval gets a Marriott deposit they are required to hold it for the use of Marriott for 24 days. The only way a Marriott owner finds out about a unit that is in the 24 day window is by talking to your Marriott Adviser. She stressed several times that I should call my adviser and establish a report with my adviser. She indicated this was important.

Is this true now? Do we get better trades by asking an advisor instead of putting in a request to II?

 

[Eric]

This is 1000% wrong. Same resort exchange is a tie breaker BUT way down the list. This is how sales people get you to buy offseason at thier resort when you can not afford a Platinum week.

Thus, if a bronze owner calls and asks for a platinum week, if one is available it goes to the bronze week owner in their home resort if there are no other high priority request unfulfilled. She said she would not buy a bronze week with the hope of exchanging into a platinum but it does occasionally happen. Hopefully you all will be able to understand what it is I am trying to explain

Let me know your thoughts.. . as if I had to ask

 

[Dave M]

Confirming, from the "Marriott Exchange Priority" section of the MVCI site (bold emphasis added):

In addition, when all comparable factors are equal, Interval International gives priority to Marriott Vacation Club Owners who request an exchange back to their home resort.

 

[sandytoes]

The example being given was for Ocean Watch where all the units are two bedroom units. The rep stated that a two bedroom Ocean Watch Owner had priority in an exchange even if the trade was for a higher season over all non Ocean Watch owners. Those who were owners trading in their season had priority over those owners trading out of their season.

Thus . . . Ocean Watch priority as I understood what the sales rep was saying . . . . . .

multi week owners of Ocean Watch trading in season
single week owners of Ocean Watch trading in season
multi week owners of Ocean Watch trading out of season
single week owners of Ocean Watch trading out of season
All other are below

Just had a thought . . . could she actually be meaning when I call into Marriott to reserve my week at the resort I own?

Confirming, from the "Marriott Exchange Priority" section of the MVCI site (bold emphasis added):

 

[sandytoes]

What about the 24 day Marriott advantage? Any truth to the fact that you need to call your Marriott Adviser to have access to all those Marriott held weeks? If true . . . this was the biggest news of all that was stated during our tour.

 

[thinze3]

....According to her, the 24 day Marriott advantage for Marriott deposits and owners does not show up with II on the computer system. When Interval gets a Marriott deposit they are required to hold it for the use of Marriott for 24 days. The only way a Marriott owner finds out about a unit that is in the 24 day window is by talking to your Marriott Adviser. She stressed several times that I should call my adviser and establish a report with my adviser. She indicated this was important. She also said the Marriott desk at II may know about some of the units but not all the units available within the 24 day "hold for Marriott Owners" period. Anyone using the computer will not see those units....
Let me know your thoughts.. . as if I had to ask

IN reference to the 24 day Marriott advantage not showing up on the computer, I am not sure I agree unless you talking about a future Marriott trading system.?.?

Current trading system with II:
I own two Marriotts and a single non-Marriott unit and can tell you first hand that Marriott weeks show up all the time on II's website that I cannot see with my non-Marriott until the 24 day Marriott priority has passed. I watched many Florida Marriott weeks in the last few months waiting for one to get through the priority period in hopes of using my non-Marriott to make a trade. A June week finally made it through and my trade happened. It was almost frustrating at times, because not many good Marriott weeks make it past the 24 day window.

I have noticed the same thing for weeks inside Flexchange, the only difference is that the Marriott hold period is shorter and varies greatly. I have watched good weeks not be available for my non-Marriott for up to two weeks. Others I have seen become available in only a few days.

I tried to use my non-Marriott AC to get a 2BR at MGC for February during Flexchange, but nothing ever seemed to get through the Marriott hold so I ended up booking a room elsewhere.

This priority/hold period is a huge advantage for Marriott owners within II's trading system. IMO

.