Proposed internal exchange program and restrictions on resale weeks

[saturn28]

That's exactly why it works for Marriott. They can tell potential purchasers- "Buy directly from Marriott, you'll have access to the most inventory!!"

This could be a huge selling point for Marriott in the future!!

Yea it may work great for Marriott in the beginning. But after those same buyers, as well as thousands more, walk out the door and find the unit they just purchased is worth 10 percent of what they just paid because of the restrictions on resales. We will see how it affects Marriott sales. They won't be getting many repeat buyers that is for sure.

 

[Dave M]

As saturn28 suggests, I think a number of people here who seem to think Marriott can't change its reservations program for resale owners are missing a key point. The various POS documents are written in a permissive manner, not a restrictive manner. In other words, they state that an owner may make reservations 12 months in advance. They don't state that an owner cannot make a reservation more than 12 months in advance.

Those MOC documents also say, as I recall, that an owner of two MOC weeks may make multiple-week reservations 13 months in advance. Some years ago, Marriott quietly extended the 13-month reservations benefit to those who any two or more weeks, whether at the same resort or not. However, I don't believe there is any language in the older POS documents that specifically allows that. There is one active TUGger who fought Marriott on that point, posting here about it for several years, and ultimately got nowhere.

Accordingly, if one gets creative, one could imagine many ways that Marriott could add or extend some benefits so as to treat all current owners and those who purchase direct from Marriott in the future differently from those who purchase resale weeks in the future. Based on the POS wording, it might be easy for Marriott to do that.

Even if that's not what Marriott is planning - and I have no knowledge either way - Marriott has obviously had its best legal minds review every detail of its plans.

Marriott has made many changes (e.g., instituting new fees for a variety of services (e.g., for ROFR waiver) and, so far, no court has ever overturned any of those changes. I'm betting that whatever changes Marriott makes here will also withstand any legal scrutiny.

As for whether resale values will plummet, I think Marriott is a lot smater than we are and won't make changes so significant as to allow that to happen.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Luxury Timeshare Digs For Motel 6 & Super 8 Rates.

In either case it doesn't give a warm feeling or make anyone want to spend big bucks for a Marriott if thats the way they behave.

Shux, I already don't want to spend big bux on a Marriott or any timeshare.

Half the fun -- closer to 3/4 of the fun, even more like 9/10 of the fun -- is getting an outstanding resale timeshare for nickels on the full-freight dollar.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax), Virginia, USA.​

 

[JimH]

All the major hotel chains have the same wish - find a way to offer an incentive to buy from the developer rather than resale. How about the top 5 or 6 brands getting together to create an exchange company (exclusively for those who bought from the developer) to trade entirely among those 5 or 6 top brands. They could call it Very Nice Hotels International. This would be a significant benefit to those with developer weeks - a significant detriment to those that are resale and I don't think they would even have to grandfather it!

 

[rmfine]

Alot of interesting thoughts here. From my perspective - I would doubt this program ever gets implemented:

1. Anti-trust/ Anti-competetive issues. The implementation of this type of program clearly creates a competetive disadvantage to anyone who wants to sell their timeshare on their own or using another outside broker. As an owner - am I to be penalized because I desire to avoid paying Marriott's 40% resale commission - or I wish to make a private sale to a friend or relative.

Additionally, this type of change would also be a direct assault on the resale brokerage community - which I don't think will roll over and play dead should an attempt to implement such a policy be tried.

2. Interval International. You can be assured II is not going to let this business walk out the door. I would image II would take a much more aggressive stance with respect to exchange fees in order to keep this business in house.

3. Fragmentation of exchange weeks. If weeks are split between II and a Marriott internal systems ..... owners actually have fewer choices. Difficult trades become more difficult for all owners whether you bought from Marriott or outside of Marriott.

4. Homeowner Association Issues. The overwhelming number of MVC resorts are Homeowner owned and controlled. Besides addressing the fragmentation issue as noted above - certainly the HOA boards have an obligation to assure all owners receive equal and fair treatment by the management company.

Marriott HOA boards do hold some leverage with MVCI when it comes to these issues. It is important to remember Marriott "works for / is paid by" the homeowner association - and certainly HOA boards have the ability to require fair and equal access of all owners to exchanges by their management company (ie, Marriott) regardless of how the timeshare is purchased.

For several years the idea of a Marriott internal exchange has been discussed. My personal feelings are that Marriott continues to allow this rumour to propagate through its sales operations so as to cast a shadow over the resale market. While Marriott may implement an internal program somewhere down the road - I believe even Marriott realizes it must walk a tight rope so as to not be anticompetetive and penalize owners that desire to sell or buy their Marriott timeshare through other venues other than Marriott.

 

[JimIg23]

I guess one of my questions is how profitable are the timeshares that have created a internal trading system which resales now command pennies on the dollar as oppose to Marriott and Disney? Is it so much higher that it would be worth Marriott distroying their resale market and create the negative opinions that follows? Does Disney make profits in line with Marriott? They allow resale the same benefits as others.

 

[dougp26364]

You didn't read the whole post. The week and unit on your deed can be used as a starting point. Some people may be happy with that week or unit. However, you would still have the option, as you do now, to book any week within your season at no cost. So, you won't be forced to take anything. Everything remains the same. Only you have the added option of keeping the week and unit on your deed it you choose.

The way Hyatt works is you have a fixed week. Then one year before your check-in date there is a 6 month window that you have to decide whether you will occupy your unit or do an internal trade to another resort. Marriott could do a similar thing and within that time period you could decide whether you want to occupy the unit on your deed or reserve another unit and week within your same season at your home resort. The only reason I put this in is because people are complaining about having to phone in exactly one year ahead of time to reserve their unit. If you are going to use your unit to trade, I have found most dates in a season trade pretty much the same.

No, I read the entire post. It's just that in Marriott's sales contract it states you don't have any right to that specific unit and that specific week. It's only for deeding purposes.

Marriott might be able to change it's program but it can't go back and change the written sales contracts it's been using.

It's not a bad thought. It's just that because of the way units have been sold and the contracts that were written I don't believe it will be practical.

 

[dougp26364]

If the rules are spelled out in the disclosure filed with the state as outlined above by Lawlar then Marriott does not have the right to change it at their whim. The one rock any timeshare / condo purchase is based on is the disclosure and the words there are nearly impossible to change after the sale without a super majority vote of the ownership. A different version can be sold to new buyers but it wouldn't apply to prior sales or resales of those contracts as the original rules stay with the contract. Of course a developer or management can choose to ignore it and figure no one will challenge - they could be right about that - but it would not be legal if it were challenged.

Far too many developers try to push the limits for this type of critical owner right and it appears Marriott isn't above that dirty trick either.

Keep in mind rules (not contracts but rules) can be changed by a vote. In many cases the developer has managed to own enough that they can vote in any change they want to vote in (or out).

 

[Dean]

If the rules are spelled out in the disclosure filed with the state as outlined above by Lawlar then Marriott does not have the right to change it at their whim. The one rock any timeshare / condo purchase is based on is the disclosure and the words there are nearly impossible to change after the sale without a super majority vote of the ownership. A different version can be sold to new buyers but it wouldn't apply to prior sales or resales of those contracts as the original rules stay with the contract. Of course a developer or management can choose to ignore it and figure no one will challenge - they could be right about that - but it would not be legal if it were challenged.

Far too many developers try to push the limits for this type of critical owner right and it appears Marriott isn't above that dirty trick either.

Per the Surfwatch POS exhibit F to the Master deed and c/w all I've seen

...the Management company or the Association, may without the consent of the owners and in it's reasonable business judgement , revise the reservation system from time to time ...

It goes on to discuss some of the things they could do including

Such other conditions, restrictions and limitations as the management company or the association shall deem necessary under the circumstances to assure a manageable and fair system.

Under that type of legal restraints they were able to change to the current 12/13 month system. While I think there are potential safeguards for home resort reservations that should prevent many potential abuses, this system allowed the 12/13 month reservation option. Still, this would only help with a home resort and not any exchange or non home resort option where Marriott would have total control. Regardless, every single change that benefits a given owner will likely negatively impact someone else.

 

[littlestar]

I guess one of my questions is how profitable are the timeshares that have created a internal trading system which resales now command pennies on the dollar as oppose to Marriott and Disney? Is it so much higher that it would be worth Marriott distroying their resale market and create the negative opinions that follows? Does Disney make profits in line with Marriott? They allow resale the same benefits as others.

We did okay when we sold some DVC points - we sold them for $11.00 more a point than what we paid direct from Disney. These points were bought in '02 and sold in '06. Of course, we didn't have to worry about Disney treating the new buyer as "second class." I know with DVC being RTU that it will eventually go down in value, but with DVC (Disney), if you buy and use, say for 10 to 15 years, I believe you can more than get your money back out of a DVC purchase if your life circumstances change.

Some of this talk makes me think Marriott is starting to look more like Westgate or maybe Starwood. Starwood seems nutty to me with their mandatory and voluntary resorts.

Hilton, Hyatt, and DVC bought as a resale (or maybe developer) look much more attractive to me right now than what Marriott does. Which is a real shame, because Marriott does have some nice resorts.

 

[Lawlar]

Marriott Apologist or Supporter of Timeshare Owners?

As saturn28 suggests, I think a number of people here who seem to think Marriott can't change its reservations program for resale owners are missing a key point. The various POS documents are written in a permissive manner, not a restrictive manner. In other words, they state that an owner may make reservations 12 months in advance. They don't state that an owner cannot make a reservation more than 12 months in advance.

Those MOC documents also say, as I recall, that an owner of two MOC weeks may make multiple-week reservations 13 months in advance. Some years ago, Marriott quietly extended the 13-month reservations benefit to those who any two or more weeks, whether at the same resort or not. However, I don't believe there is any language in the older POS documents that specifically allows that. There is one active TUGger who fought Marriott on that point, posting here about it for several years, and ultimately got nowhere.

Accordingly, if one gets creative, one could imagine many ways that Marriott could add or extend some benefits so as to treat all current owners and those who purchase direct from Marriott in the future differently from those who purchase resale weeks in the future. Based on the POS wording, it might be easy for Marriott to do that.

Even if that's not what Marriott is planning - and I have no knowledge either way - Marriott has obviously had its best legal minds review every detail of its plans.

Marriott has made many changes (e.g., instituting new fees for a variety of services (e.g., for ROFR waiver) and, so far, no court has ever overturned any of those changes. I'm betting that whatever changes Marriott makes here will also withstand any legal scrutiny.

As for whether resale values will plummet, I think Marriott is a lot smater than we are and won't make changes so significant as to allow that to happen.

Dave, I’m beginning to think your last name is Marriott.

Does it concern you that Marriott, in your opinion, would write the rules in such a manner that it could change them for its own benefit whenever it wants? Are you comfortable with the idea that Marriott's lawyers are good at doing that sort of thing? Is that really what you mean, and is that really how you feel?

Do you care about the owners Dave? [This is the Timeshare Owners Group - Isn't it?]

 

[Dave M]

I'm not judging or lobbying. I'm reporting what I know, based on information from sources that have never been wrong over varying periods extending back at least six years.

As to my opinions (e.g., comments regarding Marriott lawyers), such opinions, depending on the topic, are based partly on information given to me, partly based on my knowledge of the POS and program rules for three separate Marriotts and more than ten years of ownership, partly based on having immersed myself in an effort to know everything I can about Marriott because of my responsibility as moderator of this forum and partly based on the legal, finance and other roles that I have played and am still playing in large corporate and other business situations over the past 44 years. I work for a large manufacturing corporation that has no connection with Marriott.

Occasionally, there is a blending of what I state as fact and what I state as opinion. That can happen rarely, not necessarily in this thread, when I am given factual information that I am not authorized to disseminate immediately.

Whether a particular forthcoming change concerns me isn't pertinent to my reporting of it. I would do a disservice to participants here if I withheld information merely because I didn't like it.

I think my record for accuracy in reporting and in making predictions on this Marriott forum is unblemished. I hope to keep it that way and, thus, try to avoid making predictions that I can't support in some way. I think those that have observed my posts here for several years or more will back me up on that.

I wish I could report on what my sources of information are, but if I did, that would end the flow of information.

Edited to add: Regarding your unnecessarily harsh question about whether I care about Marriott owners, I am one and have owned multiple Marriott weeks for more than 10 years, purchasing my most recent one - from Marriott - about three years ago. Also, if I didn't care about Marriott owners, I wouldn't have more than 3,000 posts on this Marriott forum over the past 2 1/2 years!

 

[Steel5Rings]

Dave, I’m beginning to think your last name is Marriott.

Does it concern you that Marriott, in your opinion, would write the rules in such a manner that it could change them for its own benefit whenever it wants? Are you comfortable with the idea that Marriott's lawyers are good at doing that sort of thing? Is that really what you mean, and is that really how you feel?

Do you care about the owners Dave? [This is the Timeshare Owners Group - Isn't it?]

Easy Cowboy!!! Easy There!!!

Dave has been a great resource for Marriott owners on this sight including myself. He has great contacts inside MVCI and reports what he hears....he is hardly a shill for them.

That said, it is time that everyone wake up and understand that Marriott IS A BUSINESS!!! BUSINESS EXIST TO MAKE MONEY!!! I love the Marriott properties and am very happy to be an owner, but, as a former Streamside owner I can tell you in no uncertain terms that Marriott will do whatever it deems in it's best interest and for it's bottom line and damned the owners and HOA's. The Marriott romantics on this board need to wake up.....jacked up manitance fees, increased management cost, dropping resorts after letting them decline, less value for MAR Points, the 13 month rule....and now the internal trade system.

 

[alanraycole]

What gives?

I can understand the apprehension of us Marriott owners with any added limitations that resale owners may face. But, as long as resale owners have equal use of any future internal exchange, what misgivings could anyone have?

I admit to only skimming this thread. But, I have been skimming it for comments on the internal exchange program itself. I haven't seen much... just hand-wringing over the limitations that resale buyers may face and the resulting diminishing resale value.

Just for a minute, let's pretend that part of the plan was never proposed... what are the misgivings about an internal exchange system... how about a discussion of what our dream internal exchange system would be. Then, maybe, Marriott will read it and maybe even implement it... What are our dreams, not our fears?

 

[LAX Mom]

... how about a discussion of what our dream internal exchange system would be. Then, maybe, Marriott will read it and maybe even implement it... What are our dreams, not our fears?

alanraycole-
I like your idea and I started a new thread. I think we should all list what we would like to see with a new Marriott internal exchange program.

 

[taffy19]

Just for a minute, let's pretend that part of the plan was never proposed... what are the misgivings about an internal exchange system... how about a discussion of what our dream internal exchange system would be. Then, maybe, Marriott will read it and maybe even implement it... What are our dreams, not our fears?

It seems to me that the Hilton and Hyatt internal exchange systems have the most satisfied timeshare owners. I still don't see how the Marriott can make exchanges for less than three days like the Hilton can.

The Marriott has a week based system but some resorts let you split the week. I still believe that a lot of people prefer staying a whole week at a resort if they have to drive far or fly to them or the stay is hardly worth it. They wouldn't be happy if they can no longer reserve a full week as that is what they bought originally.

The Hyatt system seems to be the system they can follow so owners can reserve the full week for a certain time and when it goes to the internal system, it can be exchanged for by the day as the owners gave the week up so both features will be available that way.

This is how I see it. I cannot see how the Marriott could become a point-based system like the Hilton is. Their system seems to work great and people love the flexibility and it is very fair as everyone has a chance to get a good week if they save up their points and you don't have to keep buying more weeks just to keep competing with each other for the best weeks. That was a great deal for the Marriott bottom line but expensive in maintenance fees alone for the timeshare owners.

 

[Dean]

Dave, I’m beginning to think your last name is Marriott.

Does it concern you that Marriott, in your opinion, would write the rules in such a manner that it could change them for its own benefit whenever it wants? Are you comfortable with the idea that Marriott's lawyers are good at doing that sort of thing? Is that really what you mean, and is that really how you feel?

Do you care about the owners Dave? [This is the Timeshare Owners Group - Isn't it?]

I can tell you that every one of the systems I have any familiarity with has this power, it's likely all the rest do too. Sometimes I think people have higher expectations of some systems than others and thus hold them to a higher standard. I am comfortable that Marriott will be reasonable but I am certain there will be losers with any change. That's one of the reasons I've frequently told the DVC members that timeshares are a risky venture. DVC has a lot more power than does Marriott as they retain the right to vote for you.

 

[Pit]

Do you care about the owners Dave? [This is the Timeshare Owners Group - Isn't it?]

No reason to flame Dave. He's been a very reliable source of information on Marriott. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[PerryM]

Ba humbug!

This WM owner votes against this – it’s going to devalue WM credits as a result and I’m going to have to actually stay at WM resorts instead of at Marriotts. This is not what I signed up for and I’m writing Santa today and complain!

This would mean that in addition to our 1 Gold Summit Watch I might have to buy back my week 51 and 52 at MountainSide SummitWatch, and plain Jane Platinum weeks at Maui. This would hurt a lot in 2008.

So I vote no – stick with a proven winner of a system Marriott. Just my one vote here.

If Marriott does dump II for an internal exchange system here are my recommendations:

1) Do NOT screw around with making one Marriott owner better than another – just ask FF/Wyndham what that does for resale values. No special advantage for making and using the new reservations system.

2) Add the new exchange system “on top” of the existing system and let each owner decide if they want to continue the status quo or take advantage of the new system but make it voluntary

3) Charge $99 to convert; if the owner does it 6 months before a deadline. After that charge 10% - 20% of the current sales price to convert a week later – that way any unit that did not convert in the beginning can convert at anytime.

4) Charge $99 to deposit the unit into the system each year.

5) Make the system a Point Based System based upon the rate Marriott charges rental rates (Call them Coins and not Points for less confusion). E.g. if a 2BR week 52 at MountainSide rents from Marriott for $4,900 then the owner get’s 4,900 Coins and others shopping around pay 4,900 Coins to get that reservation - it never changes until it expires/exchanges

6) Allow banking of unused Coins into the next year and borrowing Coins from the next year – no cost to do this

7) Allow one owner to move Coins from their account to another account via the Internet page. This allows for renting of Coins between owners. No fee for this

8) Don’t screw around with removing anything that the owner paid for, like membership, when the unit is sold – even to a 3rd party, that membership goes with the unit

There Marriott, follow those rules and you will so dominate the timeshare market as to cause others to follow your lead.

But, as I stated I’m for the existing status quo – so Ba Humbug to Marriott.

If II had their head screwed on right they would adopt this Point system and offer it to Marriott as a Christmas gift in 2008 – they make the money exchanging (what they do best) and the Marriott salesreps do what they do best – spin Christmas stories.

 

[PerryM]

Grandfather knows best...

Dave, I’m beginning to think your last name is Marriott.

Does it concern you that Marriott, in your opinion, would write the rules in such a manner that it could change them for its own benefit whenever it wants? Are you comfortable with the idea that Marriott's lawyers are good at doing that sort of thing? Is that really what you mean, and is that really how you feel?

Do you care about the owners Dave? [This is the Timeshare Owners Group - Isn't it?]

Lawlar, Dave has contacts within Marriott and I, for one, take advantage of information that I believe is better than 50/50; I suggest you might take advantage of Dave’s feelings as to what Marriott might do in this very very important area.

Based upon this release and past releases of similar feelings from Dave I will look to buy Marriott weeks in 2008 that I believe will benefit our way of using Marriott – resale of course. I believe Marriott will offer an internal exchange system at some point (probably not mine) and know that Grandfathering will be a key part to leverage my money with Marriotts.

However, what happens on this little chat room is just a whimsical footnote to the developers. I truly believe that they start some of their management meetings with “Did you hear what TUG is saying today?”

 

[Lawlar]

Passive or Assertive Owners' Group?

Lawlar, Dave has contacts within Marriott and I, for one, take advantage of information that I believe is better than 50/50; I suggest you might take advantage of Dave’s feelings as to what Marriott might do in this very very important area.

Based upon this release and past releases of similar feelings from Dave I will look to buy Marriott weeks in 2008 that I believe will benefit our way of using Marriott – resale of course. I believe Marriott will offer an internal exchange system at some point (probably not mine) and know that Grandfathering will be a key part to leverage my money with Marriotts.

However, what happens on this little chat room is just a whimsical footnote to the developers. I truly believe that they start some of their management meetings with “Did you hear what TUG is saying today?”

I didn’t mean to pick on Dave. Maybe I had too much caffeine yesterday. If my comments are seen as a personal attack on Dave, then I sincerely apologize. Yes, I have seen Dave post some very positive and helpful information. He is probably a great guy.

But Perry, you express my concerns very clearly when you say: “However, what happens on this little chat room is just a whimsical footnote to the developers. I truly believe that they start some of their management meetings with “Did you hear what TUG is saying today?”

Is that what TUG wants to be – just a place for whimsical chat? When Marriott changed the rules to give priority to those who bought multiple weeks (see complaint from ICONNECTIONS and others) did TUG complain to Marriott that it was acting unethically? If Marriott tries to implement a new policy that harms its customers, will TUG try to contact Marriott to mediate or oppose the new policy? If not, then TUG is just a forum to explain Marriott’s policies and allow us owners to vent to no purpose.

Dave said: “I'm not judging or lobbying. I'm reporting.” OK. That is helpful to put us on alert that something wicked this way comes. But how about using his connections with Marriott to tell Marriott that TUG members believe that they are going to be harmed by this change. It would be nice to think that Marriott is fully informed before it makes its decision. If Marriott acts improperly then owners can find ways to oppose Marriott’s actions.

I’m a 60s rebel. I don’t like to see big business trample on the rights of its customers. Many of Marriott’s TS owners are hard working people who believed the little white lies told to them by the salespeople. There are still a few businesses in this country that put the welfare of its customers first. Unfortunately, that philosophy seems to be dying. No wonder the rest of the world is losing respect for this country.

 

[PerryM]

A chuckle can change the world...

I didn’t mean to pick on Dave. Maybe I had too much caffeine yesterday. If my comments are seen as a personal attack on Dave, then I sincerely apologize. Yes, I have seen Dave post some very positive and helpful information. He is probably a great guy.

But Perry, you express my concerns very clearly when you say: “However, what happens on this little chat room is just a whimsical footnote to the developers. I truly believe that they start some of their management meetings with “Did you hear what TUG is saying today?”

Is that what TUG wants to be – just a place for whimsical chat? When Marriott changed the rules to give priority to those who bought multiple weeks (see complaint from ICONNECTIONS and others) did TUG complain to Marriott that it was acting unethically? If Marriott tries to implement a new policy that harms its customers, will TUG try to contact Marriott to mediate or oppose the new policy? If not, then TUG is just a forum to explain Marriott’s policies and allow us owners to vent to no purpose.

Dave said: “I'm not judging or lobbying. I'm reporting.” OK. That is helpful to put us on alert that something wicked this way comes. But how about using his connections with Marriott to tell Marriott that TUG members believe that they are going to be harmed by this change. It would be nice to think that Marriott is fully informed before it makes its decision. If Marriott acts improperly then owners can find ways to oppose Marriott’s actions.

I’m a 60s rebel. I don’t like to see big business trample on the rights of its customers. Many of Marriott’s TS owners are hard working people who believed the little white lies told to them by the salespeople. There are still a few businesses in this country that put the welfare of its customers first. Unfortunately, that philosophy seems to be dying. No wonder the rest of the world is losing respect for this country.

I am a very aggressive consumer – I fight for everything I buy/use. However, there is a line between being a consumer and consumer activism – you get into politics. TUG seems to stay away from political fights of one group of owners hell bent on destroying another group of owners – and for good reason.

Marriott has but one mission – the maximize the net worth of their stock investors. We as their customers have some concern to Marriott – negative press at worst, and further areas to exploit at best.

To assume that we, their customers, or lawyers, or courts, know more than Marriott’s goal to maximize stockholders wealth is folly.

I owned 5 Marriott weeks, some were the most expensive weeks Marriott sold at that time, and sold all 5 of them and found ways to go right back to those same Marriotts at the same time for 1/10 the cost – I did my part to maximize my usage of funds invested in timeshares.

Did I dump Marriotts because of the 13 month rule – no. Did I dump Marriotts because I couldn’t get the vacation reservation I wanted – no. I dumped the Marriotts for the same reason their stockholders bought/sold Marriott stock – I found better uses of my money.

All that came about because I am a member of TUG and listen intensely to those that I believe know more than I do – Dave is one of them. I contribute to TUG to repay the kind efforts of Dave and others who have helped me over the years. (Some might not want my input but I offer it freely anyway).

I’m perfectly happy if TUG offers a whimsical opening to a timeshare developer’s management meeting. Even if they consider us whimsical they still are listening and perhaps one day we might make an impact to them. However, lawyers, courts, and lynch mobs are fought tooth and nail.

Good humor is based upon truth and planting a chuckle in the minds of the developer is, to me, priceless.

 

[MikeM132]

There is nothing in my deed or contract that says that a person buying my TS will be penalized for buying it resale. ..............................
I’m really surprised that TS groups aren’t more active in advocating for the protection of their rights.

I am not familiar with anything in any deed I have with Marriott, nor in any documents from each timeshare that gives me any "rights" whatsover to exchange. I bought a timeshare and the right to use it. Exchanging is part of the Marriott program so long as they see fit to allow it. At least that's my worst-case expectation.

 

[MikeM132]

Perry: in any well-run corporation, the principal goal is profit, not stock appreciation. I would guess this is true within Marriott. You would think these two goals would follow each other closely, but then you would disregard buyouts, option-based compensation and other manipulations that you hear about too often where companies do exactly as you say--worry about stock price before profit. Long term this is not a good plan. Just a minor observation.

 

[timeos2]

What level of input do you want?

But Perry, you express my concerns very clearly when you say: “However, what happens on this little chat room is just a whimsical footnote to the developers. I truly believe that they start some of their management meetings with “Did you hear what TUG is saying today?”

Is that what TUG wants to be – just a place for whimsical chat? When Marriott changed the rules to give priority to those who bought multiple weeks (see complaint from ICONNECTIONS and others) did TUG complain to Marriott that it was acting unethically? If Marriott tries to implement a new policy that harms its customers, will TUG try to contact Marriott to mediate or oppose the new policy? If not, then TUG is just a forum to explain Marriott’s policies and allow us owners to vent to no purpose.

Dave said: “I'm not judging or lobbying. I'm reporting.” OK. That is helpful to put us on alert that something wicked this way comes. But how about using his connections with Marriott to tell Marriott that TUG members believe that they are going to be harmed by this change. It would be nice to think that Marriott is fully informed before it makes its decision. If Marriott acts improperly then owners can find ways to oppose Marriott’s actions.

I’m a 60s rebel. I don’t like to see big business trample on the rights of its customers. Many of Marriott’s TS owners are hard working people who believed the little white lies told to them by the salespeople. There are still a few businesses in this country that put the welfare of its customers first. Unfortunately, that philosophy seems to be dying. No wonder the rest of the world is losing respect for this country.

There is a basic assumption one almost has to make when dealing with the bigger systems vs owning at an individual resort. If you buy into an independent, owner controlled resort that has voluntary affiliations with exchange groups such as RCI, II, or even some mini-systems like Diamond's Club (which has a plan that allows voluntary vs mandatory membership) then you have a direct voice on the ultimate control of that resort - the Board of Directors. But if you buy into a mini-system with ongoing developer control (Wyndham, the Diamond "Trust" Club, DVC, etc) you are basically accepting that you are along for the ride and have no say in how that operation is run. You better believe the first priority is to making money for the controlling group not the best interests of the individual buyers. Marriott blurs those lines more than most as they are both a central, controlling agent yet buyers get sold into a single resort they may or may not have a independent voice to look out for their interests.

If you want to sit back and use what you are offered then a multi-resort system like DVC, Wyndham, Diamond with near total developer control is a way to go. We own two "shares" (weeks) in one of those - Wyndham - and overall we're satisfied that what we pay gets us good value. But we are at the mercy of Wyndham as the two votes we hold pale under the massive voting power of the Developer and they will always win.

On the other hand we own 4 other resorts that, in theory, are owner controlled and decisions are made at the "local" level by the owner elected Board. All but one of those are very responsive to the desires of the owners and we feel our voices are heard in any operational decisions and they are focused on doing the best they can for the owners rather than the sales/developer. The exception is the nightmare operation of Wastegate which is the worst of a non-system but a continued (and most likely illegal) dominance by the developer that pays ZERO attention to any owner except to ensure payments. So even a so called owner controlled resort can be horribly mismanaged but that is the exception not the rule. We like both types of ownership but have no delusions that Wyndham would take steps to enhance owner value if it cost them even $.10 in corporate profits. It's just the way it is and if we don't like it we should sell.

Marriott also seems to be moving toward the bastardized Wastegate model rather than the independent resort or mini-system routes. That just may be the worst of both worlds and one we would avoid owning.

Finally there is a bigger issue that the formation of these mni-systems and large internal trade programs fosters. It is a continuing fragmentation of the available timeshare inventory into small, exclusive groups rather than a master clearinghouse that RCI once represented. It is getting harder and harder to obtain a large cross section of inventory using trades while the availability of specific resorts and dates as rentals are becoming the real method of "exchange". It just utilizes cash rather than a week for week or points based barter. Ultimately that may be the most efficient way for owners to "exchange" outside of any inexpensive internal method offered. It certainly opens the greatest number of opportunities for exact resorts/times/units that the old exchange services of RCI. II, etc could never offer. Maybe it really is the market's way of saying this is what we want.