NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[brigechols]

I have read everything in this thread and the other thread referenced. I see NOTHING that backs up the conclusion everyone is ASSUMING to be correct. It is not correct. That is not what the documents say.

What documents contradict the reports in this thread and the other referenced thread?

 

[kedler]

I agree that Marriott has done a HORRIBLE job of rolling out this program - it needed to spend 3 weeks NOT 3 days educating its sales force instead of forcing them to learn on the job and us to learn on our own. That said, Hot Coffee is right the legal documents that we sign when we enroll and/or purchase control this issue and those documents provide:

From the Disclosure Guide:

1. "For so long as the Association governing the Trust Member maintains its Affiliation Agreement with the Exchange Company, suchTrust Member[defined as owner of interest in Trust] will be granted privileges in the Program as a Member ...In order for a Trust Member to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program, the Affiliate Program Manager and/or the Association of the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program must have voluntarily entered into and maintain an Affiliation Agreement with Exchange Company. During the term of the Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members will have the right to voluntarily reserve and use the Accommodations that are a part of the Program as described in the Exchange Procedures. If a Trust Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program (e.g., outside the Trust Member’s trust) or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Trust Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures."

2. "In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company so long as a Exchange Member[defined as owner of interest in weeks] remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program."

3. "Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program (“Program”)"

From the Exchange Procedures:

1. "Member means a person (natural or otherwise) who owns an Interest in an Affiliate Program, a Component or Accommodation that is affiliated with the Program."

2. "Affiliate Program means a program of benefits and services, as they may exist from time to time, the operator of which has entered into an agreement with Exchange Company through which the Affiliate Program’s members participate in the Program. Participation in the Program is made available on a voluntary basis to Members of an Affiliate Program in accordance with the terms and conditions established by Exchange Company from time to time, in its sole and absolute discretion. Members have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Members’ Affiliate Program in accordance with the Affiliate Program Reservation System for that Member’s Affiliate Program. If a Member desires to use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of another Affiliate Program, the Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in these Exchange Procedures.

Interpretation of Legaleze:

Owners of Beneficial Interests in the Trust ("Trust Members") belong to the Trust Association who signed an Affiliation Agreement with Marriott's Exchange Company to provide Trust Members with the "right to reserve accommodations made available through the Exchange Program" [from Contract to Purchase Beneficial Interest]

Weeks Owners have the rights provided to them in their deed and the property is governed by the HOA and II is the predominent method of exchange. If Weeks Owners want the benefits of the Program they have to sign the Enrollment Agreement with the Exchange Company then, and only then, will they be given the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities in the Program. If you don't enroll you have to use II or an alternate method or exchange and cannot access points related benefits or exchanges.

IMO the reason that everyone is getting two different answers to the same question is that there are TWO different groups - Points/Trust & Weeks/Exchange with different deeds, rights and affiliation agreements.

Trust members are automatically part of the Exchange Program but Week/Exchange members have to enroll. Neither group can use the other groups' deeds UNLESS the owner of the deed chooses to use the interest granted by the deed to obtain a reservation.

Trust members may use their points for reservations through the Exchange Company. The Contract to Purchase points says that the owner will be granted a right to use their interest to reserve property in the trust (which if you think about it only makes sense because the interest is deeded). The contract to purchase is still "pre-construction" and states that that right to use does not come into being until Marriott sends the owner a Notice of Right to Use.

Trust members will not be able to make a points reservation and obtain any of the Exchange members' weeks UNLESS the Exchange member enrolls AND decides to exchange their week for points or for MR points, etc., in which case the exchanged week is available for a points reservation or exchange.

Exchange Members will not have access to Trust Member's interests without exchanging their week for points thereby becoming eligible to make a points reservation or exchange.

Points are points but if you don't enroll and then convert your week to points you can't access the benefits (or burdens depending on your point of view) given to owners of points.

All members have the right to deposit their respective interests in II and obtain access to deposits made by weeks owners who choose not to enroll, weeks Marriott deposits in II, etc.

ALL RESERVATION REQUESTS ARE SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY.

My opinion is based on my legal interpretation of the documents, not on answers from overwhelmed and confused sales/points personnel.

If Dave has any official information directly from Marriott on how they are going to administer this system that would be great.

 

[DanCali]

kedler - not sure if you read what I wrote in post #111...

First, there is a subtle difference between what is written in the "Disclusure Guide" and what is in the "Exchange Procedures". The differences are highlighted in that post.

Please read post #111 and tell us what you think because if I read the stuff on Page 1 of the "Exchange Procedures" it sure sounds different (to me).

 

[BocaBum99]

What a mess. Marriott really tried to do way too much with this product introduction.

It actually doesn't matter what anyone puts in writing. Whatever they say will likely be wrong.

The only way for us to know for sure what is going on is to sign up for an account and compare inventory you can see in all three scenarios.

1) inventory seen with an enrolled week with points deposited

2) inventory seen with Trust points

3) inventory seen with a combination.

Once we see the inventory, it will be obvious how it's implemented.

 

[korndoc]

Can anyone please explain to me what are "legacy" "exchange" and "trust" owners? What is an affiliate? My head is spinning!
This is all pretty overwhelming for someone who has had only one very enjoyable exchange in II since purchasing my Desert Springs Villas timeshare (which has relatively low points in the new system). I purchased Marriott so I could exchange into Marriott. I purchased a lock-off unit so I could get more value for the money spent. Now Marriott timesharing appears to have gone down the crapper!
Can't see any good reason to change to points, but am fearful that by staying with weeks only, I will lose the opportunity to trade into the Marriotts I want to trade to, like in Hawaii, etc.

Thanks, Jeff

 

[Clemson Fan]

Interpretation of Legaleze:

Owners of Beneficial Interests in the Trust ("Trust Members") belong to the Trust Association who signed an Affiliation Agreement with Marriott's Exchange Company to provide Trust Members with the "right to reserve accommodations made available through the Exchange Program" [from Contract to Purchase Beneficial Interest]

Weeks Owners have the rights provided to them in their deed and the property is governed by the HOA and II is the predominent method of exchange. If Weeks Owners want the benefits of the Program they have to sign the Enrollment Agreement with the Exchange Company then, and only then, will they be given the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities in the Program. If you don't enroll you have to use II or an alternate method or exchange and cannot access points related benefits or exchanges.

IMO the reason that everyone is getting two different answers to the same question is that there are TWO different groups - Points/Trust & Weeks/Exchange with different deeds, rights and affiliation agreements.

Trust members are automatically part of the Exchange Program but Week/Exchange members have to enroll. Neither group can use the other groups' deeds UNLESS the owner of the deed chooses to use the interest granted by the deed to obtain a reservation.

Trust members may use their points for reservations through the Exchange Company. The Contract to Purchase points says that the owner will be granted a right to use their interest to reserve property in the trust (which if you think about it only makes sense because the interest is deeded). The contract to purchase is still "pre-construction" and states that that right to use does not come into being until Marriott sends the owner a Notice of Right to Use.

Trust members will not be able to make a points reservation and obtain any of the Exchange members' weeks UNLESS the Exchange member enrolls AND decides to exchange their week for points or for MR points, etc., in which case the exchanged week is available for a points reservation or exchange.

Exchange Members will not have access to Trust Member's interests without exchanging their week for points thereby becoming eligible to make a points reservation or exchange.

Points are points but if you don't enroll and then convert your week to points you can't access the benefits (or burdens depending on your point of view) given to owners of points.

All members have the right to deposit their respective interests in II and obtain access to deposits made by weeks owners who choose not to enroll, weeks Marriott deposits in II, etc.

ALL RESERVATION REQUESTS ARE SUBJECT TO AVAILABILITY.

My opinion is based on my legal interpretation of the documents, not on answers from overwhelmed and confused sales/points personnel.

If Dave has any official information directly from Marriott on how they are going to administer this system that would be great.

Excellent post!!!

After reading this whole thread along with reading a lot of the other stuff here over the past 3 weeks, I think you're interpretation of legaleze is right on the money!

I think the reason everybody is getting conflicting answers from Marriott is because the reps haven't been trained that well and they're frankly just pulling stuff out of their a$$. The sales folks are even worse because they will twist things whichever way suits them best in order to try and make a sale, and this confusion allows them to get away with some of this crapola.

I'm in complete agreement with kedler and IMO this entire thread is much to do about nothing! :zzz:

 

[pipet]

Right now I am not feeling much love for Marriott , but it's hard to believe they aren't going to make all point inventory available to people with points to spend, whether they got those points by purchasing Trust points or exchanging their weeks for points. Otherwise, they just aren't going to be able to fulfill requests. It won't be just TUG readers who will be going ballistic. I think they will want requests to be filled, and I still would guess they want point requests to be fulfilled with priority since they want the new system to appear to work.

However, I do think the wording pretty much allows them to do whatever they want with their mysterious "exchange procedures." They can treat legacy enrolled members differently if they want since they specifically define both Trust Members & Exchange Members and use slightly different wording. I'm no lawyer, but it seems like they left a lot of wiggle room (I would assume on purpose), and that is why when everyone reads the document, they are able to see something in it one way or the other; that way how can you challenge the thing?

I'm actually still more concerned about the point requests taking priority in II over weeks exchangers!

 

[JimIg23]

Still unsure if this is true or not (since no one can get the same answer), but if it is, here is how I see that it works.

There are technically three types of ownership entities in this.

• Legacy non-enrolled weeks owners
• Legacy enrolled week owners
• The Trust (I don't indicate trust owners, because the trust is just another enrolled weeks owner)

Then you have the Exchange Program that all owners exchange through in the new program. The Exchange Program is a separate entity from the trust.

1. When a non-enrolled weeks owner wants to make an exchange, they do so as in the past, through II. No changes.
   
2. When a trust owner wants to make a reservation at a trust resort, they just make the reservation. This doesn't go through the exchange program as long as the trust still has inventory for the requested resort.
   
3. When a trust owner wants to make a non-Marriott exchange. The exchange manager deposits a week in to II equivalent to the points given up for the exchange. This inventory doesn't go through the new exchange program.
   
4. When a trust owner wants to make an exchange to a Marriott resort not in the trust. The trust makes available to the exchange program the number of points that they are exchanging with and the trust owner gets a week that a legacy enrolled owner deposited/converted for points. This same number of points now become available in the exchange company. Legacy weeks owners can now reserve via the exchange company for resorts in the trust equivalent to the amount of points that the trust has deposited to the exchange program.
   
5. When a legacy enrolled weeks owner converts and wants to exchange/reserve for any time, they can only reserve for inventory in the exchange program. That inventory is made up of weeks that were converted to DC points (perhaps also MR points) and points that were deposited to the exchange program. Legacy weeks enrolled owners can't access the points trust inventory until the trust makes it available to the exchange program.

The exchange program is a points in points out system. The trust and legacy owners put points in and then take time out. Trust owners can't access inventory that are not deposited to the exchange program, so I can see why enrolled weeks owners can't access points not deposited to the exchange program either.

This is all speculative and my analysis of what I have read in this thread.

This is the way it was finally explained to me by MVC after my first set of call saying points are points. I tend to think what you said is correct. I am going to try to confirm with a point specialist today.

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

Kedler

MVCD's interpretation of the legalese is different from yours.

In the MVCD interpretation, even after an Exchange member relinquishes his/her unit and turns it into "points", the Exchange member DOES NOT have access to "Trust Interests". MVCD can release Trust Interest into availablity to the Exchange members when a Trust member takes a unit out of the Exchange company (generated from legacy weeeks).

It is a small but vital distinction!!!

Here is why. let's say there are currently 100,000 units in the trust. Since June 20 there have only been 1000 point purchasers. On Day 1 7/26, these 1000 owners ave access to all 100,000 units + ALL point availability from legacy week conversions. half (500) of these gran a week from the legacy side.

Now take the legacy owners. 400,000 in total. 20% enroll leaving 80,000 enrolleees. 10% of these convert a week to points making 8000 legacy point players. These 8000 legacy point converters have access to the legacy weeks converted to points but ONLY 500 of the 100,000 weeks in the trust as these weeks were made available to compensate for the 500 legacy weeks claimed by trust owners.

It should concern everyone!!! Even weeks and II players. Here's why!!! Now MVCD will have tons of trust units (not used) in trust resorts such as Koolina, Kauai Lagoons, Oceana Palms and Marco. Pretty nice places!!! A deeded week owner at HHI wants to go skiing in park City. The HHI owner does an II "like for like" exchange (as always). A Trust owner wants to go to Park City, but there is no availability!!! The Trust owner wait lists and the "exchange manager" tries to make an II request to fill the ski request for the Trust member. MVCD has tons of trust inventory , not available to legacy point players, but great trading chips for II. Who do you think is going to get the exchange???

MVCD has gone from partner in exchanges to a direct competitor. The dichotomy in point inventory sets the table for this!!!

In a nutshell, MVCD has created a new point system that a legacy owner can't play in. Legacy points <= Trust points. You also get skimmed points in the process...

Upon bringing these issues to MVCD, I was assured that although my legal interpretation is correct in practicality there will be significant co-mingling of inventory. They encouraged me to continue my test drive on 7/26 and see for myself. I agreed...

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

Dioxide...

As always great analysis, but I believe with a small crucial omission. When a legacy owner converts a week to points that unit goes into the Exchange company and can be grabbed by either a legacy or trust owner.

When MVCD created the trust and converted those weeks to points, these units STAY in the trust and do not go to an exchange company and can only be grabbed by trust owners. Thus legacy owners never have access to All of the trust but point (trust owners do). Legacy owners only get access to a small number of units corresponding to what Trust players take from the exchange company.


There are two big cookie jars filled with goodies. The older kids can grab cookies from BOTH cookie jars immediately, but the little kids have to wait to see how many cookies the big kids take from the little cookie jar, then they can reach into the big boy jar and only take out what the big boys took from the other jar...

It's all a poker game but the odds are stacked in favor of the house...

legacy points <= trust points. Yes I know they cost more, but that should not matter. Just as the HHI purchaser in 1984 that has a platinum unit should ave equal trading power that I do in 2010 for the same unit. Legacy owners should not be penalized for purchasing earlier!!!

 

[KathyPet]

Woo Hoo! Dave to the rescue again! Dave, we await your response from your Marriott contact with bated breath. I , for one, will not get a moment's sleep until this issue is clarified.
One thing we may all agree on I think is that this is a textbook example of how not to introduce a new product. It should be brought forth as a Harvard Business School Case study of what not to do. I would think that with a corporation as large as Marriott with huge staff that they must have dedicated to marketing and introducing this new product they did a shoddy job of training staff, writing materials, and publicizing the new system. Horrible! Horrible!

 

[CMF]

Any contract that leaves this much room for interpretation and creates confusion is a bad contract. Marriott needs better lawyers.

Charles

 

[dioxide45]

Now take the legacy owners. 400,000 in total. 20% enroll leaving 80,000 enrolleees. 10% of these convert a week to points making 8000 legacy point players. These 8000 legacy point converters have access to the legacy weeks converted to points but ONLY 500 of the 100,000 weeks in the trust as these weeks were made available to compensate for the 500 legacy weeks claimed by trust owners.

But Marriott still has to do someting with those other 99,500 units. They won't let them sit empty. The trust will bulk deposit points in to the exchange program so those weeks can be absorbed. Many of that time will also find its way to II just like it has in the past.

 

[dioxide45]

good morning

Dioxide...

As always great analysis, but I believe with a small crucial omission. When a legacy owner converts a week to points that unit goes into the Exchange company and can be grabbed by either a legacy or trust owner.

When MVCD created the trust and converted those weeks to points, these units STAY in the trust and do not go to an exchange company and can only be grabbed by trust owners. Thus legacy owners never have access to All of the trust but point (trust owners do). Legacy owners only get access to a small number of units corresponding to what Trust players take from the exchange company.


There are two big cookie jars filled with goodies. The older kids can grab cookies from BOTH cookie jars immediately, but the little kids have to wait to see how many cookies the big kids take from the little cookie jar, then they can reach into the big boy jar and only take out what the big boys took from the other jar...

It's all a poker game but the odds are stacked in favor of the house...

legacy points <= trust points. Yes I know they cost more, but that should not matter. Just as the HHI purchaser in 1984 that has a platinum unit should ave equal trading power that I do in 2010 for the same unit. Legacy owners should not be penalized for purchasing earlier!!!

I agree. To expand. The big kids can look in both cookie jars first. If they like something in the little kids jar better than the big kids jar, they can take it from the little kids jar but they have to move a cookie from the big kids jar to the little kids jar to do so.

The little kids don't need to wait for all the big kids to finish before they get to pick. They can pick at any time and if there are some big kid cookies in there they can take them after the very first one is put in the little kids jar.

 

[ArtsieAng]

I agree. To expand. The big kids can look in both cookie jars first. If they like something in the little kids jar better than the big kids jar, they can take it from the little kids jar but they have to move a cookie from the big kids jar to the little kids jar to do so.

Are they going to move the cookie that nobody wants into the little kids jar, and take out the cookie that everybody is trying to get?

The little kids don't need to wait for all the big kids to finish before they get to pick. They can pick at any time and if there are some big kid cookies in there they can take them after the very first one is put in the little kids jar.

I'm envisioning a bunch of very unhappy little kids. They're crying because their older siblings have eaten all the good cookies from the big kid cookie jar, and they are now snatching the good cookies from the little kids cookie jar, and replacing them with crumbs.

 

[tombo]

I That is not what most reps are saying. Some reps are even enrolling their own weeks to get the benefits of accessing all resorts.

.

Count the response from reps that have been posted here. Most responses posted here that owners have gotten from reps/point advisers is that Legacy weeks are NOT eligible to use points to access trust inventory. Some reps dispute whether buying 1000 points will make all points eligible for trust inventory, or if purchasing 1000 points would only make those 1000 points eligible for trust inventory, but very few have said that lagacy weeks will be able to access trust inventory whether they purchase additional points or not.

You made the point for 2 separate groups in your own post on a previous thread. You said a trust member is one who buys points. A converted legacy member did not buy points and unless they do they never will own points, which would mean legacy owners would never have access to the trust inventory unless they BUY POINTS. Why would you feel any different now?

It is clear: Trust members are those who have an ownership intgerest in the trust, which is what owns the points that have been sold. So a trust member is one who buys POINTS. The distinction is based on what they own

BTW you seem to know what reps are saying and doing often. You are always on the side of Marriott no matter what the discussion. Just curious, are you a Marriott sales rep or employee?

 

[windje2000]

I'm envisioning a bunch of very unhappy little kids. They're crying because their older siblings have eaten all the good cookies from the big kid cookie jar, and they are now snatching the good cookies from the little kids cookie jar, and replacing them with crumbs.

Marriott has become the cookie monster! (Click to enlarge)

 

[puckmanfl]

Good morning

dioxide....

You are 100 % bang on correct with your last two posts. You do have an amazing clarity of vision!!!!

any rep stating that Legacy points= trust points has not had advanced training....

Remember that it took Tuggers 3 weeks to catch this one


I am going to let my guru rest and not push for the answer regarding the purchase of extra trust points and inventory

 

[ArtsieAng]

Marriott has become the cookie monster! (Click to enlarge)

:hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

 

[ArtsieAng]

Good morning

dioxide....

You are 100 % bang on correct with your last two posts. You do have an amazing clarity of vision!!!!

any rep stating that Legacy points= trust points has not had advanced training....

Remember that it took Tuggers 3 weeks to catch this one


I am going to let my guru rest and not push for the answer regarding the purchase of extra trust points and inventory

I agree....And, thank you both!!!! You have both explained the situation very well, and made it so that finally, we can now all understand, and know what to expect.

 

[newowner]

Weeks that have been deposited in the Trust at this point have not yet been paid for (ie this is develloper inventory). It actually makes sense to me that Marriott maintains full contol over these weeks.

Marriott can then choose to make weeks in the trust available to point owners in exchange for their deposited weeks if they think it is in their interest to do so (ie if they need a week from a sold out resort to maintain inventory).

Weeks that have been deposited by legacy owners and converted to points are not owned by Marriott (ie they have been paid for) and, as such, need to be maintained separately.

 

[puckmanfl]

Good morning....

Here is my most recent try at simplifying this.....

Today, if youbwalk into a sales center and spent $140k,you get over 13000 points. these are like Disney points(except deeded). these points are good to make reservations for any unit in point inventory....

If you are legacy owner that has enrolled, you become a member of a new exchange company. When you convert a unit to points, you do not have acess to all point inventory,but the ability to deposit your points into the exchange company and EXCHANGE for any inventory already deposited into the company!!!

points were sold to me as a currency used to avoid an Exchange company (II orMVCEC). After enrolling and getting skimmed, I find out I am still exchanging!!!

 

[ArtsieAng]

Good morning....

Here is my most recent try at simplifying this.....

Today, if youbwalk into a sales center and spent $140k,you get over 13000 points. these are like Disney points(except deeded). these points are good to make reservations for any unit in point inventory....

If you are legacy owner that has enrolled, you become a member of a new exchange company. When you convert a unit to points, you do not have acess to all point inventory,but the ability to deposit your points into the exchange company and EXCHANGE for any inventory already deposited into the company!!!

points were sold to me as a currency used to avoid an Exchange company (II orMVCEC). After enrolling and getting skimmed, I find out I am still exchanging!!!

Yup....Now, think of the Legacy owner who does not have enough points to be a Premier/Premier Plus member. Aren't they now being placed behind three different groups of owners? Premier, Premier Plus & Trust Owners?

 

[rsackett]

I agree. To expand. The big kids can look in both cookie jars first. If they like something in the little kids jar better than the big kids jar, they can take it from the little kids jar but they have to move a cookie from the big kids jar to the little kids jar to do so.

The little kids don't need to wait for all the big kids to finish before they get to pick. They can pick at any time and if there are some big kid cookies in there they can take them after the very first one is put in the little kids jar.

Bingo! Best post yet, even simple enough for me.

Ray

 

[tombo]

I'm envisioning a bunch of very unhappy little kids. They're crying because their older siblings have eaten all the good cookies from the big kid cookie jar, and they are now snatching the good cookies from the little kids cookie jar, and replacing them with crumbs.

If the big boys take all of the good cookies out of the little boys cookie jar, Marriott can fill the little boy's jar back up with crumbs from the big boy's jar, and as long as the total volume of the little boy's cookie jar remains the same everything is equal.

It actually isn't the same as we all know. One 6000 point Hawaii week taken out of the little boys cookie jar does not really equal six 1000 point shoulder weeks deposited to replace it, but it is supposed to according to points rules.