NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[tiel]

So the majority of Points specialists agree, Marriott has first class customers who buy points restail from Marriott who get access to all points inventory (including trust weeks and Legacy weeks), and then there are the second class Legacy owners who convert and will never be able to access trust inventory.

The documents are so hard to read that this might very well be true, it also might be a lie salesmen are telling, and it might be a misunderstanding, but to not be able to answer a simple question like this with no if's and's or but's is NO WAY for a huge company like Marriott to launch a new program. People should be fired for introducing a system they can't even explain to their own employees.

I tried to make these very comments on Bill's blog, but it never made it past the moderator. There is no doubt this is a complex program, BUT, it is clear they were just meeting an arbitrary release date on June 20. They were not, and still are not, ready to release this program, though of course it's way too late to do anything about that. At a minimum, their documentation should be in plain English; there should be clear, understandable rules laid out so we can all (Marriott staff AND weeks/points/combo owners) know what is going on.

Just wondering what is going to happen on JUL 26, when the website is supposed to be operational!?!?!?! Guess we'll be relying on the programmers to indirectly tell us what the rules are, by making our transactions possible or impossible to accomplish. That is truly scary.

 

[KathyPet]

DAVE,

Yoo Hoo! Dave where are you when we need clarification on this point from your "Marriott buddy"?

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening...

just a tidbit to raise the comedy level a little...

On 7/26 the "death star" will NOT be operational. If you wish to play with "points" on this day as either an Exchange owner or trust owner, you must call owner services and get your VOA on the "line". The VOA will be able to check inventory and make your transaction...

I can't wait to test drive this!!! It will be worth the $695 just to "make a call" in the poker game so that I may finally see the other guys hand!!! I promise to report back with my results!!!!

 

[Janette]

If you want to use your deeded week as usual, you don't want points folks to have access to that inventory. Once you turn in your week for points, then you are on the same level with those who bought points and will pull from that pool. I'm at Grande Ocean this week and am not worried about my future vacations.

 

[JimIg23]

Long conversation with yet another Marriott rep, who was actually very nice and understood my problems. She thinks what this thread is saying IS correct and that exchange members will only have access to other inventory after Marriott decides to release it, which could be 10 months, whenever. They said exchange owners have 10 days to cancel their memberships if they already signed or emailed back.

I was on the fence, but was willing to try the system based on the understanding points are points. This is crazy. No way I am going to pay for something like this.

 

[hipslo]

The concern expressed in this thread seems unlikely to be valid to me. Just a hunch, nothing more.

Think about how happy with marriott everyone will be when they clear this up definitively, and it works the way enrolled owners would like it to work.....

 

[ondeadlin]

Yep, Fred covered it all without lapsing into hyperbole, attributing anything sinister to Marriott, or implying insults against other TUGgers. It's too bad we can't all speak so plainly or politely.

What's the quote? Ah yes, the world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness, lol.

Here's a hint, Sue: Just because something is phrased in passive aggressive manner doesn't make it any less of an implied insult.

 

[DanCali]

Once you turn in your week for points, then you are on the same level with those who bought points and will pull from that pool.

There are numerous posts in this thread that reach an opposite conclusion based on conversations with Marriott reps.

Your conclusion is based on...?

 

[DanCali]

I was on the fence, but was willing to try the system based on the understanding points are points. This is crazy. No way I am going to pay for something like this.

You mean you were willing to pay $2K to get an edge on weeks owners but you won't pay $2K to be a second class citizen?

 

[tombo]

The concern expressed in this thread seems unlikely to be valid to me. Just a hunch, nothing more.

Think about how happy with marriott everyone will be when they clear this up definitively, and it works the way enrolled owners would like it to work.....

How could an owner later be pleased that owners had to call marriott employees repeatedly asking questions about inventory and they kept getting different answers? It should be an embarassment for Marriott and it is another slap in the face for owners.

Right now the best we can do is go on the majority rule. The majority of Marriott employees have told the owners who called and inquired that Legacy owners who deposit weeks will not be able to access trust inventory. If that is later proven to be wrong, or if it is in fact correct, the ineptitude of marriott's roll out and the lack of training of it's employees is something that significantly reduces most owner's confidence in Marriott as a well run organization. In addition after not getting a straight answer for weeks at a time, when they finally give a supposedly definitive answer, how can you trust them to not change it later and say oops you were told wrong again?

 

[DanCali]

For my final post in this thread. Here again is the applicable section of the Destination Points Disclosure Guide. It is the document that defines the two groups of program members:

IV. Membership in the Program​

1. Trust Members. This paragraph only applies to Trust Members. For so long as the Association governing the Trust Member maintains its Affiliation Agreement with the Exchange Company, such Trust Member will be granted privileges in the Program as a Member, subject to the terms and conditions set forth in this Disclosure Guide. Other than the Affiliation Agreement, there is no Program contract with any Trust Member separate and distinct from the Trust Member’s contract with the Developer for the acquisition of an Interest at an Affiliate Program. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. In order for a Trust Member to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program, the Affiliate Program Manager and/or the Association of the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program must have voluntarily entered into and maintain an Affiliation Agreement with Exchange Company. During the term of the Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members will have the right to voluntarily reserve and use the Accommodations that are a part of the Program as described in the Exchange Procedures. If a Trust Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program (e.g., outside the Trust Member’s trust) or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Trust Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Affiliation Agreement will occur. Every Affiliation Agreement will have a two year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by mutual agreement of the applicable Association and Exchange Company. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company.
2. Exchange Members. This paragraph only applies to Exchange Members. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company and so long as a Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program in accordance with the Exchange Procedures. If a Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s Affiliate Program or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Enrollment Agreement will occur. Every Enrollment Agreement will have a one year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by the Exchange Member. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company.

hotcoffee - based on your posts I assume you think the above text proves there is one inventory pool.

This is getting VERY interesting because I just downloaded the "Exchange Procedures" document from Marriott's website and it reads as follows on page 1 (note the highlighted differences):

II.
EXERCISE OF MEMBERSHIP PRIVILEGES; MEMBER’S DISTRIBUTION
A. Trust Members. This section only applies to Trust Members. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Trust Member, the Affiliate Program Manager and/or Association of your Affiliate Program must have voluntarily entered into an Affiliation Agreement with Exchange Company, where the Affiliate Program Manager and/or Association is a member of the Program. Trust Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of Membership in the Program. During the term of the Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Program or an Affiliate Program in accordance with these Exchange Procedures. Unless otherwise provided pursuant to the applicable Affiliation Agreement, Trust Members have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations, facilities, services, and experiences that are a part of the Trust Member’s Affiliate Program in accordance with that Affiliate Program’s Affiliate Program Reservation System. If a Trust Member desires to use the Special Benefits that may be offered by Exchange Company from time to time, the Trust Member may voluntarily participate in the Program as described in these Exchange Procedures.

this is clearly different and leads me to a different conclusion than yours...

(the Exchange members Paragraph reads similar to yours, implying the can only reserve "Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program in accordance with the Exchange Procedures. ")

 

[SueDonJ]

What's the quote? Ah yes, the world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness, lol.

Here's a hint, Sue: Just because something is phrased in passive aggressive manner doesn't make it any less of an implied insult.

Funny how that works.

 

[dioxide45]

Still unsure if this is true or not (since no one can get the same answer), but if it is, here is how I see that it works.

There are technically three types of ownership entities in this.

• Legacy non-enrolled weeks owners
• Legacy enrolled week owners
• The Trust (I don't indicate trust owners, because the trust is just another enrolled weeks owner)

Then you have the Exchange Program that all owners exchange through in the new program. The Exchange Program is a separate entity from the trust.

1. When a non-enrolled weeks owner wants to make an exchange, they do so as in the past, through II. No changes.
   
2. When a trust owner wants to make a reservation at a trust resort, they just make the reservation. This doesn't go through the exchange program as long as the trust still has inventory for the requested resort.
   
3. When a trust owner wants to make a non-Marriott exchange. The exchange manager deposits a week in to II equivalent to the points given up for the exchange. This inventory doesn't go through the new exchange program.
   
4. When a trust owner wants to make an exchange to a Marriott resort not in the trust. The trust makes available to the exchange program the number of points that they are exchanging with and the trust owner gets a week that a legacy enrolled owner deposited/converted for points. This same number of points now become available in the exchange company. Legacy weeks owners can now reserve via the exchange company for resorts in the trust equivalent to the amount of points that the trust has deposited to the exchange program.
   
5. When a legacy enrolled weeks owner converts and wants to exchange/reserve for any time, they can only reserve for inventory in the exchange program. That inventory is made up of weeks that were converted to DC points (perhaps also MR points) and points that were deposited to the exchange program. Legacy weeks enrolled owners can't access the points trust inventory until the trust makes it available to the exchange program.

The exchange program is a points in points out system. The trust and legacy owners put points in and then take time out. Trust owners can't access inventory that are not deposited to the exchange program, so I can see why enrolled weeks owners can't access points not deposited to the exchange program either.

This is all speculative and my analysis of what I have read in this thread.

 

[camachinist]

Another point of interest to legacy weeks owners wrt the influence of the new 'trust' is that, while methodically going through MARSHA looking at Marriott rental inventory, I'm seeing huge holes in inventory for next year (2011). A lot of 'unsuccessful sells'. For legacy owners who like to occupy/exchange and augment their week with a few revenue nights at the timeshare property, and often at the advantageous MOD rate, this is a point of value which may become much harder to acheive with the trust/points scheme in place.

One more datapoint...

 

[brigechols]

Has anyone heard the term World Vacation Collection before?

Yes on MVCI in the FAQ link (requires log-in)

Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?

Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.

 

[DanCali]

This is all speculative and my analysis of what I have read in this thread.

This is how I understand it too, assuming all this issue of 2 pools is correct.

 

[dioxide45]

For my final post in this thread. Here again is the applicable section of the Destination Points Disclosure Guide. It is the document that defines the two groups of program members:

2. Exchange Members. This paragraph only applies to Exchange Members. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company and so long as a Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program in accordance with the Exchange Procedures. If a Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s Affiliate Program or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Enrollment Agreement will occur. Every Enrollment Agreement will have a one year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by the Exchange Member. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company.

I think the portion in red better relates to what is being discussed. The owner of an interest is a trust owner or a weeks owner. In order for exchange members to enjoy all the benefits of the trust inventory, an owner in the trust must voluntarily enter in to an enrollment agreement with the exchange company. They enter in to this agreement by exchanging through the exchange company and depositing points as I indicated in my prior post.

 

[SueDonJ]

I think the portion in red better relates to what is being discussed. The owner of an interest is a trust owner (only trust owners own beneficial interests). In order for exchange members to enjoy all the benefits that owner of the interest must voluntarily enter in to an enrollment agreement with the exchange company. They enter in to this agreement by exchanging through the exchange company as I indicated in my prior post.

What do you think, Dioxide? Is Marriott considered a Trust Owner of a beneficial interest because of their development holdings in the Trust? Is it reasonable to expect, as siberiavol and others have concluded, that Marriott will "enter into an enrollment with the exchange company" to provide inventory that satisfies Enrolled owners' requests for exchanges to Trust properties?

 

[dioxide45]

What do you think, Dioxide? Is Marriott considered a Trust Owner of a beneficial interest because of their development holdings in the Trust? Is it reasonable to expect, as siberiavol and others have concluded, that Marriott will "enter into an enrollment with the exchange company" to provide inventory that satisfies Enrolled owners' requests for exchanges to Trust properties?

It is possible that the trust will bulk bank time (points) in to the exchange program, just like Marriott has done in the past with II. The exchange program will also bank time in to II just like in the past (likely also that trust time that was deposited to the exchange program).

The trust owners won't get anywhere close to reserving all of that time owned by the trust and won't exchange for enough time outside of the trust to use it up. So Marriott will now have two streams to bulk bank to. I don't think people really need to worry much about this. The trust owners can't use up all of that trust inventory themselves. There are probably only a couple thousand trust owners now.

 

[urple2]

This thread is another WOW...All this just to figure out how to go on a vacation. I had no reason to join from the beginning and this continuation of events keeps on reinforcing that. The tuggers on here flushing all this out though are remarkable!

 

[californiagirl]

good evening...

just a tidbit to raise the comedy level a little...

On 7/26 the "death star" will NOT be operational.

Thank you for the comic relief:rofl: :hysterical: :rofl: Seriously, I can't tell which is the "dark side" at this point!

 

[Dave M]

Yes, this thread is a "WOW!”

I'll try to find out something authoritative, but considering the variety of "authoritative" responses that people have reported in this thread, I don't have a lot of confidence that anything I find out can be relied upon. I will ask for a written statement for publication here and ask if Marriott can publish some clarifying information. I'm skeptical as to whether that request will be honored.

What a mess!

As I understand it there have basically been four different responses to the points access question for enrolled owners. Enrolled owners who elect to use points for a particular year...

1) have access to all inventory in Marriott's hands (trust inventory, enrolled week deposits, legacy weeks traded for Marriott Rewards points, etc.) or ...

2) have access only to weeks owned by other enrolled owners who elected to use points for the given year or ....

3) have access to all inventory in Marriott's hands, but only if they buy a minimum of 1,000 points at $9.20 each or ...

4) have access only to weeks owned by other enrolled owners who elected to use points for the given year if they use points. And if they buy a minimum of 1,000 points they will not be able to combine those points with their elected points for the year to access all inventory.

Does that about cover it? Or did I miss a major response?

Thursday is a very busy mostly non-TUG day for me, but I'll do my best to get the query started.

 

[californiagirl]

Thank you so much Dave for taking a stab at it with Marriott.

 

[DanCali]

Yes, this thread is a "WOW!”

I'll try to find out something authoritative, but considering the variety of "authoritative" responses that people have reported in this thread, I don't have a lot of confidence that anything I find out can be relied upon. I will ask for a written statement for publication here and ask if Marriott can publish some clarifying information. I'm skeptical as to whether that request will be honored.

What a mess!

As I understand it there have basically been four different responses to the points access question for enrolled owners. Enrolled owners who elect to use points for a particular year...

1) have access to all inventory in Marriott's hands (trust inventory, enrolled week deposits, legacy weeks traded for Marriott Rewards points, etc.) or ...

2) have access only to weeks owned by other enrolled owners who elected to use points for the given year or ....

3) have access to all inventory in Marriott's hands, but only if they buy a minimum of 1,000 points at $9.20 each or ...

4) have access only to weeks owned by other enrolled owners who elected to use points for the given year if they use points. And if they buy a minimum of 1,000 points they will not be able to combine those points with their elected points for the year to access all inventory.

Does that about cover it? Or did I miss a major response?

Thursday is a very busy mostly non-TUG day for me, but I'll do my best to get the query started.

Dave - I think you covered it.

Also - what is the status if the "original" inevntory question on you end? That's whether enrolled weeks that convert and available in the points inventory are allocated on a pro-rata basis or can owners using points theoretically book all the high demand inventory in a season?

I know that m has spoken to a senior person in consumer advocacy who confirmed the pro-rata allocation. Until then, the issue has been very ambiguous. Has there been any further confirmation or news on this issue on your end?

 

[BocaBoy]

I have read everything in this thread and the other thread referenced. I see NOTHING that backs up the conclusion everyone is ASSUMING to be correct. It is not correct. That is not what the documents say. That is not what most reps are saying. Some reps are even enrolling their own weeks to get the benefits of accessing all resorts.

Do not forget that using a little logic might also be helpful: There is little or no trust inventory at most resorts right now. If Marriott's trust acquires a few units, why would those few be kept separate from the larger pool? An administrative hassle for no benefit. Also, at a newer resort the trust owns most of the units. But remember that few points have been sold. For quite aq while if not forever, the vast majority of points will come from legacy weeks owners. So if legacy owners do not get access to the resort via points, the resort will either be (a) largely empty; or (b) there will be thousands of weeks on II and no points availability. This will not happen.

I wish Dave M would post a response from Marriott on this point so it could be debunked to you guys' satisfaction and we could concentrate on real questions.