NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[RedDogSD]

Wow, this is a big deal. Did anyone find out if those owners who do pony up for 1000 more points (crazy I know) have access to the Trust inventory with ALL of their points, or will they only be able to use 1000 points with the trust inventory.

Trust me, I would never even THINK about paying $9200 and $400 per year just to do that, but was curious none the less.

 

[GrayFal]

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse...........

Aren't you glad u own at properties u do not mind visiting - in fact you LIKE where u own!
It could always be worse....but I will have to think REALLY hard to think of what it could be.

 

[windje2000]

good afternoon

It's pretty simple folks...

Trust owners can access ANY week in the point inventory. Legacy owners that convert a week to points can access ONLY the inventory that other legacy owners have converted to MR or DC points + units available from delinquencies...

There are some provisions for crossover for legacy point players if and when trust owners hit the legacy points inventory.

This is 10 times worse than the skim. At least the skim was seen upfront and can be viewed as a feeble attempt to charge a fee for short stays, definitive dates and flexibility!! The two sets of inventories for points players are hidden in a well crafted clause about affiliated resorts when describing the exchange company for enrollee's...

I'm stuck (out $695) and will test drive my 4550 pts on 7/26 to see just how bad it really is...The good news is that if I don't see anything in pointr inventory. I can keep my week as a week (as I have not yet converted it). I can then lock off and play in the II account. If they ever contact me about it!!!!

yikes...

Call them up and unenroll! edited to add: Demand a refund. What have you got to lose?


edited again to add - If they refused, I'd call the President of MVCI [Stephen Weiscz (sp?)] directly. I called when they dragged their heels on processing my deeds. Calling the CEO GET RESULTS.

If I got no satisfaction call Bill Marriott's office directly. He has staff dedicated to irate customers.

You can also file in small claims court. Win or lose, they need to retain an attorney to appear.

File a complaint with the AG of your state.

No refund makes me a squeaky wheel. Get your money's worth.

 

[SueDonJ]

Of course (access to weeks deposited for points), isn't this the dream they are trying to sell to new Points Buyers.

It would seem that they would have to replace this inventory with comparable inventory from the trust pool (or some other source) or there might be nothing for the legacy weeks owner with points from a deposit to reserve from the legacy pool.

That's my thought as well and I asked it in the other thread. If yesterday we were all so worried that Legacy owners would somehow be able to raid all the good weeks out of the Weeks inventory, why today are we thinking that they won't do exactly that? When they do, an interval from the Trust has to be released to the Legacy pool. As well, Marriott is still holding developer inventory that has not been conveyed to the Trust and we don't know how/when that will be released to Trust/Legacy/Weeks owners.

But probably most important to consider, as far as how the inventory actually works within the set-up, is what siberiavol posted to that other thread:

"We might be forgetting that Marriott Corp probably still owns 95% of trust at this point in time. They have the same right to turn in a week into new program as an enrolled member. Marriott as an owner has to do something with those weeks. They are not going to sit on them waiting for the 5% of the trust owners who are new point buyers to make up their mind on what they want.

They will wear their owner hat and deposit into points pool as requests come in. I had assumed they would be most of their inventory but I can't see it being none of their inventory. The likely worst case is they release it more gradually to give new point buyers a better opportunity to see trust properties."

I just can't see Marriott not allowing Enrolled Points owners access to any Trust inventory as a punishment measure. It would hurt them to let inventory sit unused much more than it hurts us to be thought of as second-class owners. So if a Legacy owner has to put in a wait-list request for Trust inventory, does anybody really think that Marriott won't release it if Trust owners don't want it? How is a wait-listed request in this new system any different from an II request, with respect to having to wait for a match? At least with the Points system you will know before you make the request that what you're depositing is enough to get you the inventory when/if it becomes available.

 

[ArtsieAng]

Aren't you glad u own at properties u do not mind visiting - in fact you LIKE where u own!
It could always be worse....but I will have to think REALLY hard to think of what it could be.

Please, don't think of what could be worse. The last thing Marriott needs is more ideas on how to make the DC any worse than it already is. LOL

Yes, I'm very happy that I bought where I like to vacation......If I feel like changing things up, I can always rent. That most likely is what I will be doing in the future.

 

[tlwmkw]

If you un-enroll will they give you the money back? I was told that you have a five day recission period and after that you get no money back. If so it's too late for me so I'll have to hope that this is not true. If it is true then what use are my 800 plus points that they gave me?

I suppose if legacy owners complain about lack of availability at newer resorts then they will just say "Buy some of these shiny new points and you will have all the access in the world! Come on, try it, you'll love it!". Ugh- if this is true then I certainly will have lost respect for Marriott and MVCI and will not be buying anything from them.

tlwmkw

 

[GregT]

All,

This is very interesting, let's walk through a couple possible implications. Let's take PuckmanFL's desired trade, a 3BR in Kauai Lagoons.

Marriott has the desired week sitting in its Trust inventory. Puckman will put in a trade request -- it's a practical impossibility that week will be available to Puck on July 26th, unless it is Marriott's Trust that provides the needed week. Otherwise, Puckman will sit there waiting for some Kauai Lagoons owner to 1) enroll and 2) redeem their 3BR for the exact week Puck wants. That's just not going to happen. I bet Marriott makes the trade because otherwise they eat the KL week and they are awash in KL weeks.

Where the rubber will hit the road is for a sold-out property -- take Frenchman's Cove, where there may be modest inventory in the Trust, and Puck decides he wants to go there in 2012 and redeems his week for (skimmed) points and requests a MFC trade.

If there are few MFC weeks in the Trust and Puck is offering Ko Olina where the Trust is awash in weeks, I can easily see Marriott not making its precious MFC week available to Puck, and requiring that Puck wait until another enrolled owner redeems their MFC week for (skimmed) points, to match Puck. Trade Power of the relative weeks, combined with scarcity of inventory in the Trust, means Puck has to wait for another enrolled/skimmed owner.

All they did, in the second example, was move the exchange marketplace from II to their internal system, but did not supplement the internal system with their own weeks. I would assume that the trade chances are no better than from II.

Interesting stuff and I'm sure there is much we will still learn about this.

Best to all,

Greg

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening

Sue, the difference between a wait list for a trust unit v. II exchange is that a trust point person doesn't have to wait list (exchange members do) for the same inventory. Trust members get access to legacy weeks converted to points as well, competing with you for these as well...

At the end of the day MVCD is telling you that your legacy point is worth less than a trust point. Counting for inflation,you paid as much for your points as trust owners!! In addition to this, you get "skimmed" to get less valuable points... In 2004, I did not have the option of purchasing in a trust and becoming a trust owner,so Why is my conversion getting me to a weaker quality of point...

An II exchange is an independent transaction, monitored by a third party whose motive is to make deals, not promote sales of points...

I am with Tombo

Roll Tide Roll

I am sorry to be so argumentative, but I really feel betrayed by this!!!

 

[ArtsieAng]

SueDonJ


I just can't see Marriott not allowing Enrolled Points owners access to any Trust inventory as a punishment measure. It would hurt them to let inventory sit unused much more than it hurts us to be thought of as second-class owners. So if a Legacy owner has to put in a wait-list request for Trust inventory, does anybody really think that Marriott won't release it if Trust owners don't want it? How is a wait-listed request in this new system any different from an II request, with respect to having to wait for a match? At least with the Points system you will know before you make the request that what you're depositing is enough to get you the inventory when/if it becomes available.

jimf41 has stated that Legacy owners will never have access to the trust. Not now, not ever. Do you have different information?

jimf41

We will have no access to the points in the beneficial trust. Not now, not ever.

SueDonJ

How is a wait-listed request in this new system any different from an II request, with respect to having to wait for a match?

II is strictly an exchange company. They are not selling you vacation points, and then playing favorites with new DC owners vs old Legacy owners.

 

[tlwmkw]

Susan,

You mentioned that Marriott is holding inventory that isn't in the trust. My understanding from conversations with a number of the MVCI folks is that Marriott will no longer hold anything other than the trust- all weeks are deposited into the trust as soon as they become MVCI property. Why would they hold onto inventory that they won't be selling? It doesn't make sense for them to do that. Now they may say that the points that represent unsold units in the trust may be available to the legacy owners but that's not what everyone is saying here. I'm guessing that this will have to happen otherwise how could you use your 800 plus points that we got for enrolling?

I am still hoping that this is not true and am waiting to see if Dave m. or someone with some Marriott contacts can explore this further for all of us. There is so much bad information out there and this program is being so badly administered that I don't know who to believe. I can't keep calling these folks or trying to chat with them, I feel like I'm just banging my head against the wall.

tlwmkw

 

[K2Quick]

< deleted >

 

[puckmanfl]

hi

my trade could not be made the old II way!!! As I only have 2 (2 bedroom) Hawaii units (you cannot combine unit size or trade up in II). With the new system, I was planning on using the flexibility of combining two units worth of points to snag a unit available in point inventory. I give MVCD two Waiohai's units for their inventory and I get 8550 pts. Then I snag my KL 3 bedroom for 5550 pts and keep the other 2900. This plan assumed equal valuer on both legacy and trust points. I can put this request on "wait list" but I MUST committ both my weeks to points (losing the usage). This is no different than II. How many of us have heard that the motivation for all of this is angst with II. Now we know what the motives are!!!

 

[ArtsieAng]

tlwmkw

I am still hoping that this is not true and am waiting to see if Dave m. or someone with some Marriott contacts can explore this further for all of us. There is so much bad information out there and this program is being so badly administered that I don't know who to believe. I can't keep calling these folks or trying to chat with them, I feel like I'm just banging my head against the wall.

I completely agree. This info really needs to be verified, one way, or the other.

 

[SueDonJ]

good evening

Sue, the difference between a wait list for a trust unit v. II exchange is that a trust point person doesn't have to wait list (exchange members do) for the same inventory. Trust members get access to legacy weeks converted to points as well, competing with you for these as well...

At the end of the day MVCD is telling you that your legacy point is worth less than a trust point. Counting for inflation,you paid as much for your points as trust owners!! In addition to this, you get "skimmed" to get less valuable points... In 2004, I did not have the option of purchasing in a trust and becoming a trust owner,so Why is my conversion getting me to a weaker quality of point...

An II exchange is an independent transaction, monitored by a third party whose motive is to make deals, not promote sales of points...

I am with Tombo

Roll Tide Roll

I am sorry to be so argumentative, but I really feel betrayed by this!!!

I don't see you as being argumentative at all, Puck - you're just trying to figure this all out the same way the rest of us are!

I guess I just go back to what I said in that other thread, not ever expecting to be on par with a Trust owner. They're the darlings of the new system and we just have to figure out how Marriott can make their ownerships more usage-valuable than ours, so that we can then figure out how to make ours work the best they can for us. If as an Enrolled member I am a second-class citizen, well, so be it. The only thing that matters is how I can use my Weeks to their fullest potential - and the question still remains, is that as an Enrolled member trying to use the existing Points system, an Enrolled member trying to use the existing Weeks system, or as a Weeks member trying to figure out how all this new stuff changes things from what existed prior to June 20th? I enrolled in Points not because I expected to be a darling in Marriott's grand scheme, but because it gives me options that are not available if I don't enroll and my costs are reasonable. That hasn't changed with yours and tiel's findings here.

I think Greg's post should go a long way toward allaying some of the usage fears, even if it can't remove the stigma of second-class.

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon

windje...

I am so emotionally involved at this point, I want to see the game thru until 7/26 and see what happens. Worst case is that it is truly awful and I don't re-enroll for 2012. At this point it has gone past the $$$695. I want to see this thru to the end game and report ALL of the trap doors to my friends here on TUG...

stay tuned for 7/26...

A better way for MVCD to handle this would have been to show upfront that trust points were better than legacy points. They could have offered an equity exchange (legacy deeds for trust points) to owners that wanted to play a different way. Weeks owners could also beleft alone.

This hybrid 12 headed albatross combo thing is a boondoggle and will bite them (oops can't say that on a family thread). This is almost a game they are playing to see if they can alienate every legacy owner!!!!

 

[windje2000]

good afternoon

windje...

I am so emotionally involved at this point, I want to see the game thru until 7/26 and see what happens. Worst case is that it is truly awful and I don't re-enroll for 2012. At this point it has gone past the $$$695. I want to see this thru to the end game and report ALL of the trap doors to my friends here on TUG...

stay tuned for 7/26...

A better way for MVCD to handle this would have been to show upfront that trust points were better than legacy points. They could have offered an equity exchange (legacy deeds for trust points) to owners that wanted to play a different way. Weeks owners could also beleft alone.

This hybrid 12 headed albatross combo thing is a boondoggle and will bite them (oops can't say that on a family thread). This is almost a game they are playing to see if they can alienate every legacy owner!!!!

I feel your pain. Please see my edited response above.

Don't get mad - get even.

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon

Sue...

I really respect your graciousness!!! It does come thru in cyberspace...

I don't plan on throwing my ownership out the window!!! I plan on making what I have work, just as you are doing!!! (all my 2011 weeks are planned except 1 in the legacy points game) What irritates me is that the "trust" point thing might actually work better for my future needs but my 13,666 pts. are "trapped" as legacy points and they can't ever play with the other children (trust points)!!!

I don't have another $130K in handy money to purchase an equivalent number of points in the trust...

If there was to be a dichotomy in points some system of equity exchange should have been made available to legacy owners...where they could (for a fee of course) convert to trust points... I am sure they would factor in the skim for this as well!!!

 

[SueDonJ]

jimf41 has stated that Legacy owners will never have access to the trust. Not now, not ever. Do you have different information?

I don't first-hand, no, but I'm going by what Puck was told by his guru and posted in the other thread where this was first discussed:

"... on the opening day of trading (7/26) Trust owners (new points purchasers) have access to BOTH pools #1 and #2, Exchange owners (legacy owners that have enrolled and converted to points) have access to only Pool #2.

Here is where it gets tricky!!! If and ONLY if a Trust owner grabs a reservation from Pool #2, then a reservation becomes available to an Exchange owner from Pool #1. Legacy point users have to wait until Trust owners make moves before Legacy point users get access to Trust inventory... ..."

II is strictly an exchange company. They are not selling you vacation points, and then playing favorites with new DC owners vs old Legacy owners.

Which is why I used the qualifier, "with respect to having to wait for a match." I'm aware there are differences between Legacy and Points owners, and between Marriott's and II's systems. The comparison I made was between an II request and a DC wait-list.

 

[hotcoffee]

Some of you might be panicking too soon. This is from the Destination Club Disclosure Guide:

Exchange Members. This paragraph only applies to Exchange Members. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company.

2. Exchange Members. This paragraph only applies to Exchange Members. In order to enjoy the benefits of Membership in the Program as a Exchange Member, an owner of an Interest must have voluntarily entered into an Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company. Membership in the Program is not an appurtenance to Interests. Exchange Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions for Membership in the Program. During the term of the Exchange Member’s Enrollment Agreement with Exchange Company and so long as a Exchange Member remains enrolled in the Program, Exchange Members will have the right to reserve and use the Accommodations and facilities that are a part of the Program in accordance with the Exchange Procedures. If a Exchange Member desires to use the Accommodations outside the Exchange Member’s Affiliate Program or access Exchange Benefits, from time to time, the Exchange Member may voluntarily participate in the Program described in this Disclosure Guide and the Exchange Procedures. There is no guaranty that the renewal of any Enrollment Agreement will occur. Every Enrollment Agreement will have a one year term and may be renewed on a voluntary basis by the Exchange Member. Members must comply with all of the terms and conditions of the Program as determined by Exchange Company.

 

[SueDonJ]

Susan,

You mentioned that Marriott is holding inventory that isn't in the trust. My understanding from conversations with a number of the MVCI folks is that Marriott will no longer hold anything other than the trust- all weeks are deposited into the trust as soon as they become MVCI property. Why would they hold onto inventory that they won't be selling? It doesn't make sense for them to do that. Now they may say that the points that represent unsold units in the trust may be available to the legacy owners but that's not what everyone is saying here. I'm guessing that this will have to happen otherwise how could you use your 800 plus points that we got for enrolling?

I am still hoping that this is not true and am waiting to see if Dave m. or someone with some Marriott contacts can explore this further for all of us. There is so much bad information out there and this program is being so badly administered that I don't know who to believe. I can't keep calling these folks or trying to chat with them, I feel like I'm just banging my head against the wall.

tlwmkw

I don't know the answer to this, either, tlw, unless Marriott is somehow conveying inventory to the Trust secretly. I doubt that can happen, legally, and I doubt that Marriott is doing anything illegal with respect to the Trust inventory. All I know is that a couple weeks before the roll-out on Jun 20th we met with our sales rep and saw a list of several SurfWatch and at least one Barony Beach intervals that Marriott had available for sale. Those were not on the list of conveyed units that were included in the original docs and none of the TUG sleuths has come up with any evidence of further conveyances since the roll-out. I'm sure that eventually Marriott will not hold Weeks inventory outside of the Trust, as you expect, but I'm not as certain that they've conveyed everything to date.

 

[tombo]

good evening

Sue, the difference between a wait list for a trust unit v. II exchange is that a trust point person doesn't have to wait list (exchange members do) for the same inventory. Trust members get access to legacy weeks converted to points as well, competing with you for these as well...

At the end of the day MVCD is telling you that your legacy point is worth less than a trust point. Counting for inflation,you paid as much for your points as trust owners!! In addition to this, you get "skimmed" to get less valuable points... In 2004, I did not have the option of purchasing in a trust and becoming a trust owner,so Why is my conversion getting me to a weaker quality of point...

An II exchange is an independent transaction, monitored by a third party whose motive is to make deals, not promote sales of points...

I am with Tombo

Roll Tide Roll

I am sorry to be so argumentative, but I really feel betrayed by this!!!

Are you now rooting for Bama with me, just agreeing that you have given up on Marriot doing what is right for legacy owners, or both?

Either way welcome.

 

[SueDonJ]

good afternoon

Sue...

I really respect your graciousness!!! It does come thru in cyberspace...

I don't plan on throwing my ownership out the window!!! I plan on making what I have work, just as you are doing!!! (all my 2011 weeks are planned except 1 in the legacy points game) What irritates me is that the "trust" point thing might actually work better for my future needs but my 13,666 pts. are "trapped" as legacy points and they can't ever play with the other children (trust points)!!!

I don't have another $130K in handy money to purchase an equivalent number of points in the trust...

If there was to be a dichotomy in points some system of equity exchange should have been made available to legacy owners...where they could (for a fee of course) convert to trust points... I am sure they would factor in the skim for this as well!!!

We're guinea pigs for sure, Puck, but I refuse to believe that Marriott has offered us something that has less value than what we owned before we enrolled. Even if the very worst predictions for Points usage were to come true (which I don't expect,) we are still able to use our Weeks on the exact same basis as every other Weeks owner. We're not losing anything that we had, and we stand to make some gains. That's not a bad position to be in.

Good luck with your test drive. You're a step ahead of me for Jul 26th in that you at least know what you want to do with your weeks ... two of mine are in limbo.

 

[californiagirl]

So let me see if I understand this correctly. My goal was to trade my garden view 2 bdrm MOC for points and trade back into MOC in a 1 bdrm ocean view or ocean front unit and have points left over to use somewhere else. Since MOC is sold out, am I to understand that if another legacy week owner deposits the exact unit (into the points system) that I am seeking and I make the request, a trust owner can scoop it out from under me??? I would be in second place behind a trust owner even though I am exchanging legacy points for legacy points?

If this is the case, I am one very unhappy camper! I had gotten past the skim and was thinking the flexibility was worth it for me. This takes it to a whole new level of dissatisfaction. I also would appreciate Dave M. requesting confirmation from his source in Marriott. I agree that if this is the case, then this is the straw that breaks the camel's back. I can not believe how poorly this program has been presented and delivered!! That we are still calling and getting conflicting information from the Marriott specialists is beyond belief. I am so disappointed with Marriott. I have been a huge fan for several years and expected much more from them. Right now I feel that in return for my loyalty to Marriott I am receiving a sucker-punch!

 

[ArtsieAng]

I don't first-hand, no, but I'm going by what Puck was told by his guru and posted in the other thread where this was first discussed:

"... on the opening day of trading (7/26) Trust owners (new points purchasers) have access to BOTH pools #1 and #2, Exchange owners (legacy owners that have enrolled and converted to points) have access to only Pool #2.

Here is where it gets tricky!!! If and ONLY if a Trust owner grabs a reservation from Pool #2, then a reservation becomes available to an Exchange owner from Pool #1. Legacy point users have to wait until Trust owners make moves before Legacy point users get access to Trust inventory... ..."

OK thanks, I understand your point.....I think this all needs to be verified. Hopefully, this will happen sooner, rather than later.

Which is why I used the qualifier, "with respect to having to wait for a match." I'm aware there are differences between Legacy and Points owners, and between Marriott's and II's systems. The comparison I made was between an II request and a DC wait-list.

The difference is that Marriott is playing favorites, and II is not. If two identical weeks are deposited into II, they will be treated exactly the same when it comes to fulfilling their requests. The only difference between the two in the eyes of II would be when each week was deposited.

Marriott is giving the clear advantage to points. If it does turn out that there is a wait list, it would be just another line I'd have to get behind now, in order to get an exchange. Sigh.

 

[puckmanfl]

Good evening


Sorry tombo

I live in Gatorland....

Congrats on last year, the better team won!!!!p