Resale of Enrolled Week Not Eligible for Points Program - Discussion

[DanCali]

This topic has been discussed in at least 10 different threads and creates a lot of confusion. Even Marriott reps give inconsistent answers... Many, including myself, realize that if an enrolled week were eligible for points it would likely make it more valuable on the resale market. Therefore, I think it's important to clarify this once and for all.

Unfortunately, my understanding from Marriott's documents is that an enrolled week cannot reenroll in points if resold.

This statement pretty much clarifies that:

Weeks purchased externally before June 20, 2010 may be enrolled for $1,495 for the first week or $1,995 for one and a half or more weeks. Weeks purchased externally, with a deed recording date after June 20, 2010 are not eligible for the program.

The thing that is confusing is the following information regarding initiation fees (Program Disclosure Guide page 3):

a. Trust Members. Upon the sale of an Interest, Exchange Company may require the payment of an initiation fee. (The current initiation fee is $200 per Interest with a $2,000 minimum initiation fee; however, Exchange Company reserves the right to adjust the amount of the initiation fee from time to time and to waive the initiation fee on a case-by-case basis in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion.) Until payment of any required initiation fee is received (or waived by Exchange Company), the owner of such Interest(s) will not be entitled to Base Plus Exchange Benefits or Exchange Benefits; however, payment of the initiation fee will allow access to the Base Plus Exchange Benefits. If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Exchange Benefits in Exchange Company’s sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid. Additional payments may be required to access the Exchange Benefits.

b. Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner.

So what do we understand from this?

My understanding is that Trust Members are people who buy points from Marriott. Therefore, as weeks owners, this whole paragraph does not apply to us.

My understanding is that Exchange Members are people who own weeks and enroll them in the points program. That would apply to those os us who enroll. What the paragraph above says is that if the buyer of an enrolled week pays then then prevailing enrollment fee, they can enroll in points.

But we already concluded that, currently, there is no enrollment fee for weeks bought after June 20. They are simply not eligible (or think of it as an enrollment fee of $100M dollars...). So my understanding is that weeks sold/bought from now on are not eligible for points for an indefinite period of time. Will it change? Maybe... Maybe not... Only Marriott knows.

Does anyone else interpret things differently?

 

[hotcoffee]

Until we get a difinitive answer from Marriott, there is always going to be the question of whether enrolled weeks sold through Marriott are eligible to be later rejoined by buyers. My take is that they are (based upon the second document you included). I think the documentation otherwise makes it clear that externally purchased weeks are not eligible.

 

[DanCali]

My take is that they are (based upon the second document you included).

Your take is that they are, even if you ignore the "Trust Members" paragraph?

Sorry, I just don't see it... can you elaborate why you think tht way?

Unfortunately, the Marriott reps know much less than us about the program. Their training on this was horrendous (but on par with the quality of the points program).

 

[BocaBum99]

I think you have it right. However, I believe that Marriott will take trade ins of weeks for a small purchase of points.

 

[BocaBoy]

I think the Exchange Members paragraph refers to people who buy a week from an enrolled member THROUGH MARRIOTT'S RESALE OPERATIONS group. I am afraid it does not mean a private resale on the secondary market.

I generally support most of the new program as a valuable option for existing owners, but this resale restriction is a big problem.

Also, I do not think the points system is a good one for new buyers.

 

[hotcoffee]

Your take is that they are, even if you ignore the "Trust Members" paragraph?

Sorry, I just don't see it... can you elaborate why you think tht way?

Unfortunately, the Marriott reps know much less than us about the program. Their training on this was horrendous (but on par with the quality of the points program).

Trust members are those who are enrolled in the program. Since the paragraph concerns the sale of a "interest". An "interest" is anything in the Trust inventory that can be purchased by a trust member. So, it sure sounds like it is saying that interests sold through Marriott or an "approved broker" can rejoin.

 

[DanCali]

Trust members are those who are enrolled in the program. Since the paragraph concerns the sale of a "interest". An "interest" is anything in the Trust inventory that can be purchased by a trust member. So, it sure sounds like it is saying that interests sold through Marriott or an "approved broker" can rejoin.

As I said in my original post - My understanding is that trust members are the ones who bought POINTS from Marriott. Points can and will be transferable for a fee - that makes sense. The fee just devalues them on the market even more. However, that paragraph does NOT apply to weeks owners.

As weeks owners, what applies to us the the "Exchange Members" paragraph. This is what I had to say about that:

My understanding is that Exchange Members are people who own weeks and enroll them in the points program. That would apply to those os us who enroll. What the paragraph above says is that if the buyer of an enrolled week pays then then prevailing enrollment fee, they can enroll in points.

But we already concluded that, currently, there is no enrollment fee for weeks bought after June 20. They are simply not eligible (or think of it as an enrollment fee of $100M dollars...). So my understanding is that weeks sold/bought from now on are not eligible for points for an indefinite period of time. Will it change? Maybe... Maybe not... Only Marriott knows.

If I'm misunerstanding what a Trust Member is, that's a different story - then it's ambiguous. But I don't think I am...

 

[hotcoffee]

As I said in my original post - My understanding is that trust members are the ones who bought POINTS from Marriott. Points can and will be transferable for a fee - that makes sense. The fee just devalues them on the market even more. However, that paragraph does NOT apply to weeks owners.Member is, that's a different story - then it's ambiguous....

That seems like an artificial distinction to me. That would mean if a enrolled weeks owner bought points, he is trust member, but if he did not, he is not a trust member. My take is that everyone in the program should be considered a trust member.

Sounds like another question that will have to be addressed to my rep.

 

[BocaBoy]

It is clear: Trust members are those who have an ownership intgerest in the trust, which is what owns the points that have been sold. So a trust member is one who buys POINTS. The distinction is based on what they own--no more, no less.

 

[hotcoffee]

It is clear: Trust members are those who have an ownership intgerest in the trust, which is what owns the points that have been sold. So a trust member is one who buys POINTS. The distinction is based on what they own--no more, no less.

I will find out for sure whenever I can get ahold of my rep. This being a holiday weekend, I don't know if he will be working tomorrow or Monday.

 

[5infam]

DanCali - your original post sounds right to me. The documents are for both types of owners it appears, and Trust Members are points only owners, because that is what they own; a piece of the Trust (a share being 250 points).

This further concerns me, if we can not sell our weeks and allow the new buyer to join in points - as it relates to transfers to family members. I do not know how this works, but I do know that every Marriott timeshare presentation I attended made mention of that fact that I had a deeded week, and that I could will that to my kids or hand it over to them some day. Would that type of transfer also constitute that my kids could not join points - of course assuming that a resale can not join points? Just curious as to what you experts think.

 

[hotcoffee]

DanCali - your original post sounds right to me. The documents are for both types of owners it appears, and Trust Members are points only owners, because that is what they own; a piece of the Trust (a share being 250 points).

This further concerns me, if we can not sell our weeks and allow the new buyer to join in points - as it relates to transfers to family members. I do not know how this works, but I do know that every Marriott timeshare presentation I attended made mention of that fact that I had a deeded week, and that I could will that to my kids or hand it over to them some day. Would that type of transfer also constitute that my kids could not join points - of course assuming that a resale can not join points? Just curious as to what you experts think.

So then, if I sold my week through Marriott and my points through Marriott, the buyer of my points could use them if they paid the initiation fee, but the buyer of my week could not enroll it.

It also suggests that it is possible to sell your points through an external broker, but the buyer would then not be able to use them.

Also, what does "interest" mean in the paragraph for an Exchange Member?

 

[jimf41]

An interest is a beneficial interest (BI). a BI is 250 points in the total trust. If you purchase a BI it will always be equal to 250 points. If the trust has 100,000 points then you own 250 of 100,000 or one BI. If the trust builds a new resort that equals 20,000 points then you own 250 of 120,000.

It might look like they devalued your ownership but look at it as you would a week. If Marriott adds 20 more units to your resort your week did not lose value, it's just part of a bigger whole.

Initial purchase is four BI's or 1000 points. You can then add in one BI increments or 250 points.

 

[DanCali]

So then, if I sold my week through Marriott and my points through Marriott, the buyer of my points could use them if they paid the initiation fee, but the buyer of my week could not enroll it.?

This is how I understand it.

I believe they may invite owners from selected resorts if they need inventory but I just can't see Marriott regularly allowing resale weeks into the program.

If they did then why buy points from them? Just go and buy a resale week that was enrolled and then re-enroll it - it will cost a lot less than buying points from Marriott. We'd all be rushing to do that to get to Premier Plus the cheapest way possible and who knows, maybe resale values may have even risen - at least for enrolled weeks.

It also suggests that it is possible to sell your points through an external broker, but the buyer would then not be able to use them.

Yes - at least it gives Marriott the option to deny the buyer entry into points. Whether they will do it or not, who knows? But the new program gives the a lot of control they didn't have before in the resort CC&Rs.

 

[JimIg23]

I agree with DanCali, sounds like deeded weeks that bought into the exchange program are not eligible to have their points transfered to the new owner on any type of resale (even thru Marriott), even if you sell them as a bundle with a trust points membership as they are two distinct sales. Maybe a Marriott rep can confirm.

However, that goes back to taking the chance of potential future positive changes with the point system and joining, maybe that will change. Just like the skim, if enough people join and do not convert their points and if enough owners complain over time, Marriott may adjust the points given to owners for their weeks. (Although it also could go the other way....)

 

[hotcoffee]

I agree with DanCali, sounds like deeded weeks that bought into the exchange program are not eligible to have their points transfered to the new owner on any type of resale (even thru Marriott), even if you sell them as a bundle with a trust points membership as they are two distinct sales. Maybe a Marriott rep can confirm.

However, that goes back to taking the chance of potential future positive changes with the point system and joining, maybe that will change. Just like the skim, if enough people join and do not convert their points and if enough owners complain over time, Marriott may adjust the points given to owners for their weeks. (Although it also could go the other way....)

Then how do you interpret this below (from OP)?

"b. Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner."

Sounds like someone will be able to purchase someone's week and enroll it if he pays the enrollment fee, doesn't it?

 

[hipslo]

Then how do you interpret this below (from OP)?

"b. Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner."

Sounds like someone will be able to purchase someone's week and enroll it if he pays the enrollment fee, doesn't it?

I agree with this. If a weeks owner has enrolled the week, that person becomes an "Exchange Member". If someone then buys the enrolled week from the Exchange Member, the language suggests that the purchaser would be permitted to access the system upon payment of the then- current enrollment fee.

I would imagine that the enrollment fee for purchasers of enrolled weeks will be high.

Then there is this language:

"If the purchase of an Interest is not made from an Approved Broker, then the owner of such Interest(s) may not be entitled to Special Benefits in Exchange Company's sole and absolute discretion, even if the initiation fee is paid".

So taken together, I think this means that (i) enrolled owners can sell their enrolled weeks through an Approved Broker (presumably at marriott's direct prices, with the Approved Broker taking something like 40% to 50% of the purchase price off the top as a commission), and if they do so, the buyer can enroll in the points program if they pay the then current initiation fee, and (ii) an enrolled owner can sell their enrolled week privately (ie - other than through an Approved Broker), and if the purchaser pays the initiation fee, they can be in the points program, but they can only make reservations in the points system 60 days in advance, unless marriott decides otherwise (they could still use the week as they can currently).

Bottom line, if buyers want to participate in the points program going forward, and not be limited to 60 day advance reservations, they will need to purchase points directly from marriott, or points or enrolled weeks from an Approved Broker, and the prices through Approved Brokers will likely be comparable to buying direct from marriott.

 

[hipslo]

My take is that everyone in the program should be considered a trust member.

Under the documents, it is clear that Trust Owners are those who have purchased points directly from marriott, and they are trust owners only as to the purchased points. Exchange Members are weeks owners who have enrolled their weeks, as to the enrolled weeks.

 

[JimIg23]

Then how do you interpret this below (from OP)?

"b. Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner."

Sounds like someone will be able to purchase someone's week and enroll it if he pays the enrollment fee, doesn't it?

I see your point. I dont know. Can it be only with an approved broker? Too many seperate paragraphs when added together makes my head spin.

 

[hipslo]

I see your point. I dont know. Can it be only with an approved broker? Too many seperate paragraphs when added together makes my head spin.

I believe the document, taken as a whole, means that unless the sale is through an Approved Broker, marriott has the discretion to limit beneifts in the points system to "Base Benefits (can only reserve 60 days out), even if the enrollment fee is paid.

Which basically allows them to control the resale market.

 

[DanCali]

Then how do you interpret this below (from OP)?

"b. Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner."

Sounds like someone will be able to purchase someone's week and enroll it if he pays the enrollment fee, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]

I actually agree with the bolded statement above except it should read:

Sounds like someone will be able to purchase someone's week and enroll it if he pays the prevailing enrollment fee, doesn't it?

So what is the prevailing enrollment fee for a week bought after June 20? My argument that the fee to enroll a resale week bought after June 20, 2010 is infinity...

Marriott has not set an enrollment fee for those weeks. By saying

Weeks purchased externally before June 20, 2010 may be enrolled for $1,495 for the first week or $1,995 for one and a half or more weeks. Weeks purchased externally, with a deed recording date after June 20, 2010 are not eligible for the program.

they are specifically saying they will not accept them, at least until further notice.

So that's how I concludeed you cannot enroll a resale week that was enrolled...

 

[hotcoffee]

I may have some mis-placed faith, but I believe that Marriott will support some type of resale option. It is in their interest to do so. It appears that they have excluded external resales altogether. So, that leaves just resales via Marriott itself. If true, is that going to be a good option? Don't know, but it is better than nothing.

Human nature is such that people tend to shy away from purchasing defective merchandise even when the defect has no effect on the overall quality or functionality of the merchandise. That is why I think that excluding resale weeks in the program altogether (including those bought through Marriott) will heavily damage the Marriott resale market. I don't see how it can help them sell their product if once in you can't get back out. If they have their own resale option available, the sales staff can calm the fears of buyers by telling them that if they should want to sell at some time in the future: "not to worry, we will handle that for you" (or something like that).

 

[BocaBum99]

Then how do you interpret this below (from OP)?

"b. Exchange Members. If a purchaser of a Exchange Member’s Interest does not pay the then-current enrollment fee and enroll in the Program, such purchaser will not be entitled to be a Member and will not be permitted to access the Program in any manner."

Sounds like someone will be able to purchase someone's week and enroll it if he pays the enrollment fee, doesn't it?[/QUOTE]

I actually agree with the bolded statement above except it should read:



So what is the prevailing enrollment fee for a week bought after June 20? My argument that the fee to enroll a resale week bought after June 20, 2010 is infinity...

Marriott has not set an enrollment fee for those weeks. By saying



they are specifically saying they will not accept them, at least until further notice.

So that's how I concludeed you cannot enroll a resale week that was enrolled...

You are spending a lot of time trying to prove an irrelevant point. What is relevant are the real decisions that current owners have now. To enroll or not. To purchase points or not.

No matter what you read into the current documentation and no matter what our current understanding is. Marriott WILL make it possible for resale weeks to enroll into points in some way. It will either be by a strict enrollment program, a trade in program or an authorized reseller program. I would be willing place a bet on it.

The only reason I am so confident about it is that it is in Marriott's best financial interest to do it. And, every other developer that I follow does it, too.

 

[BocaBum99]

I may have some mis-placed faith, but I believe that Marriott will support some type of resale option. It is in their interest to do so. It appears that they have excluded external resales altogether. So, that leaves just resales via Marriott itself. If true, is that going to be a good option? Don't know, but it is better than nothing.

Human nature is such that people tend to shy away from purchasing defective merchandise even when the defect has no effect on the overall quality or functionality of the merchandise. That is why I think that excluding resale weeks in the program altogether (including those bought through Marriott) will heavily damage the Marriott resale market. I don't see how it can help them sell their product if once in you can't get back out. If they have their own resale option available, the sales staff can calm the fears of buyers by telling them that if they should want to sell at some time in the future: "not to worry, we will handle that for you" (or something like that).

I agree with your logic.

 

[hotcoffee]

Okay. I just got a response from my Marriott rep. I don't think it is fair to copy-n-paste his e-mail here. So, I will summarize what he said.

1. A resale week sold via Marriott will be able to be enrolled into the program.
2. As several posters here concluded, "Trust member" is someone who owns only points.
3. "Exchange member" is someone with an enrolled deeded week.
4. Marriott will not allow resales obtained through an external broker to be enrolled into the points program.
5. When Marriott sells an enrolled member's week, they will not sell the week bundled with any extra points owned by the member. Points will be bought back by Marriott, and the week will be sold without the points.
6. Points can be sold on the open market. However, points purchased on the open market will have use restrictions on their booking timeframes.
7. Marriott plans to establish a department to sell the "beneficial interests" [whatever that means] on behalf of owners who no longer want them.