NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[winger]

All this uncertainty and fear just to buy points?

how about I enroll (just to save expenses every yr), then just deposit my platinum week on Dec 30th for Marriott Reward Points. At that point, I don't even care what buckets there are and Marriott would conceivably NOT get a good week to use.

 

[winger]

I have only read up to this post...so forgive if my post is 'old'

They were not, and still are not, ready to release this program,

I have a suspicion this was a business call on Marriott's side to introduce a working program (regardless how screwed up it is) on x date , whether it be competitive advantage or whatever.

...
Just wondering what is going to happen on JUL 26, when the website is supposed to be operational!?!?!?! Guess we'll be relying on the programmers to indirectly tell us what the rules are, by making our transactions possible or impossible to accomplish. That is truly scary.

Tiel, you are not too far from how things sometimes work in the real world...I have seen numerous times where the business asks the programmar "so how does the system work now" ? Hmmm, that sounds good, ok that would be the 'business rule', then. Next...

 

[BocaBum99]

Can we join those 1,000 points with our current 2,200 points to use together? Honestly, reading through the posts on this particular subject, I can't figure out if we can or not. Does anyone have a definitive answer to this question?

I do not have such definitive answer. However, if Marriott did this, it would be the all time most stupid points program ever created.

It would result in 100% customer dissatisfaction for existing weeks owners both retail and resale.

For that reason alone, I give it a 99.99% probability that such points can be combined to make a single reservation. Heck, even Wyndham allows that scenario. Just not at the 13 month mark.

 

[BocaBum99]

Tiel, you are not too far from how things sometimes work in the real world...I have seen numerous times where the business asks the programmar "so how does the system work now" ? Hmmm, that sounds good, ok that would be the 'business rule', then. Next...

I completely agree. I've seen this happen time and time again. The programmer has to program rules. If the business guys don't define them, the developer will.

 

[Dave M]

Dave - I think you covered [the summary of the four different response peolle are getting to the primary issue raised in this thread].

Also - what is the status if the "original" inevntory question on you end? That's whether enrolled weeks that convert and available in the points inventory are allocated on a pro-rata basis or can owners using points theoretically book all the high demand inventory in a season?

I know that m has spoken to a senior person in consumer advocacy who confirmed the pro-rata allocation. Until then, the issue has been very ambiguous. Has there been any further confirmation or news on this issue on your end?

I have sent a detailed message off to my contact, including links to seven posts in this and one other thread to demonstrate how different the responses from MVCI are on this topic. My message also asks about the "original" inventory issue.

I have asked for a lot - correct answers that I can post, links to or quotes from any legal documents that Marriott believes support whatever answers I am given, permission to quote the response to my questions, especially if the supporting language isn't in the existing documents, etc. I have also made a couple of suggestions, the results of which I hope to be able to report back here.

Based on the complexity of the way I have asked the questions and Marriott's demonstrated desire to ensure they have the best possible answers for me before responding, it wouldn't surprise me if it's Monday or Tuesday before I have answers that I can post here.

When I do have answers, if the answers are meaningful, I will start a new thread on this topic as well as reference it in my "Definitive" answers thread so that no one need wade through many, many posts in this thread to find out what I learn.

Meanwhile, please be patient....

 

[NJMOM2]

I completely agree. I've seen this happen time and time again. The programmer has to program rules. If the business guys don't define them, the developer will.

I am a programmer and I completely agree with you. I keep trying to come up with a 'rule' for the reservation system in my head if I were to create the reservation program. I would make points be points and would have a hard time creating a system with different types of points....but I am NOT the programmer. Let's hope Marriott does the right thing.

 

[DanCali]

I have sent a detailed message off to my contact, including links to seven posts in this and one other thread to demonstrate how different the responses from MVCI are on this topic. My message also asks about the "original" inventory issue.

I have asked for a lot - correct answers that I can post, links to or quotes from any legal documents that Marriott believes support whatever answers I am given, permission to quote the response to my questions, especially if the supporting language isn't in the existing documents, etc. I have also made a couple of suggestions, the results of which I hope to be able to report back here.

Based on the complexity of the way I have asked the questions and Marriott's demonstrated desire to ensure they have the best possible answers for me before responding, it wouldn't surprise me if it's Monday or Tuesday before I have answers that I can post here.

When I do have answers, if the answers are meaningful, I will start a new thread on this topic as well as reference it in my "Definitive" answers thread so that no one need wade through many, many posts in this thread to find out what I learn.

Meanwhile, please be patient....

Thank you.

 

[JanT]

Boca,

I'm sorry I'm not following you. If allowing the points to be combined, why would that be the "most stupid points ever created?" Why would it result in 100% customer dissatisfaction across the board?

And if those two things are true then why do you give it a 99.99% probability that Marriott will allow it? Do you really think Marriott wants to piss off it's customer base?

I do not have such definitive answer. However, if Marriott did this, it would be the all time most stupid points program ever created.

It would result in 100% customer dissatisfaction for existing weeks owners both retail and resale.

For that reason alone, I give it a 99.99% probability that such points can be combined to make a single reservation. Heck, even Wyndham allows that scenario. Just not at the 13 month mark.

 

[pipet]

But, the Bluegreen Vacation Club has points that are allocated based on a specific resort, deeded week and unit number. The points granted are exactly same as the points required to book such unit and the individual days associated with that week. And, owners get priority access to their underlying fixed week if they want it. At 11 months prior to check in, if those rights aren't elected, then the inventory automatically goes into the Bluegreen reservation system where inventory is made available to all owners on a first come, first served basis. All points owners, whether they are Trust owners, enrolled weeks owners, or external weeks owners depositing one time weeks in the system have the EXACT same reservation rights and access to a single consolidated inventory pool.

Why didn't Marriott just do this (including the part about being about to book your own week)! Think of all the mayhem they could have avoided.

Still, I hope the exchange part works like it does with Bluegreen. It doesn't make sense to me NOT to match up possible exchanges when they are there just because they come from different sources.

I know there is the possibility they might reserve certain properties for Trust owners, and screw with the II inventory, but I hope not. In the end, II still wants trades (seems like there would be some commission for them even in corporate accounts) and Marriott needs to make trades or the whole thing implodes.

LOL, I sure hope they communicated more clearly to their programmers than they did to their customers.

JanT, I think BocaBumm is saying that forever keeping all the pools separate is about the dumbest thing he's ever heard (which I agree), and that's why they will allow trust & exchange points to be combined.

 

[mjbaran]

Can we talk to the programmers?

At this point the programmers could provide better answers to our questions than the sales reps!

 

[DPat54]

Basic Questions

I'm new here (just registered today), but my family owns six weeks of MVCR, and I'm more than a little concerned.

1. What is meant by "properties held in a Marriott trust"?
2. Am I right in saying that someone, anyone, with 6,500 points, no matter where they got them, can book in my home resort, any season, for just 7 nights, and they can book there a month before I can book there ?
3. Has all of this been made possible because Marriott had some weeks in inventory, at disadvanted locations, and they "converted" those weeks into "points" that could be spent anywhere? Thus increasing the interest level, and the value, of those weak weeks?
4. So they've increased the competition for bookings at MY home resorts, by selling "weeks" (points) at weak resorts ? And if those newbies are resourceful, they can book a full month before me ?

 

[sandytoes]

So what is the difference between a Legacy owner and a trust owner? . . . I purchased two weeks directly from Marriott . . . what does that make me?

 

[camachinist]

I'm new here

Hey, welcome Heck of a time you picked to climb on board this train

Firstly, amongst your ownerships, do you have any seasons which overlap, IOW where you are booking or can book multiple weeks at the same time? If so, the 13 month rule can apply to you too, simply by being a deeded owner. No points required

The underlying system is very complex, hence what you're seeing here in this thread. Take a couple days and read through the threads related to the points system and I think a clearer picture will emerge. If you get a headache, you're in good company

So what is the difference between a Legacy owner and a trust owner? . . . I purchased two weeks directly from Marriott . . . what does that make me?

You're a legacy developer weeks owner, just like me If you decide to purchase 'points' @ 9.20/pt per 1000, or whatever the future price is, then you'll become a 'mixed' owner, having legacy weeks *and* points in the trust. Clear as mud?

 

[gravitar]

At this point the programmers could provide better answers to our questions than the sales reps!

One inventory database (pool)

Deposit coded as it goes in
x-points
y-legacy
z-undefined

Owner accounts get permissions assigned. Permissions based on what inventory is allowed to be viewed

On the assumption that you had legacy and points and that you were restricted to legacy inventory for legacy booking and points inventory for points booking, when you select the type of exchange (points or legacy), as you would have both in your account, the system would look-up the permissions for that type of search and return only the inventory with the assigned code.

Not that complicated

 

[tiel]

My head is literally spinning from all the posts in the last several weeks. It's like a bad train wreck that I can't look away from.

We haven't decided if we will now or ever join the points system. We own a 1 br EOY Grand Chateau week that garners 2200 points. For us that is sufficient because we don't like to travel peak time. The beauty of the points system for us would be the ability to book 1-4 nights at a time to extend our stay that we booked with another week.

There is a part of us that says well maybe we'll buy the extra 1,000 points but I seriously doubt we will because as I said, the 1-4 night booking would work for us just fine. We're just not into spending another $9200 for points plus the additional $400 a year maintenance fee.

BUT, if we decided to do that (and I don't need a long drawn out discussion on WHY we shouldn't), I simply want to know one thing:

Can we join those 1,000 points with our current 2,200 points to use together? Honestly, reading through the posts on this particular subject, I can't figure out if we can or not. Does anyone have a definitive answer to this question?

THAT is exactly what we are trying to find out! We have no definitive answer yet. But, DaveM is attempting to get this and some other issues addressed as we type! Hopefully, maybe, surely??? we will know something next week. It is an important point that needs to be clearly delineated.

 

[m61376]

Welcome to Tug.
As posted above, spend a few days reading through the mess here and you'll have a clearer picture. Just to give you some basic answers though:

I'm new here (just registered today), but my family owns six weeks of MVCR, and I'm more than a little concerned.

1. What is meant by "properties held in a Marriott trust"?Marriott has taken the unsold inventory at 11 resorts and grouped it together, assigned point values, and placed those in a trust for sale in lieu of a deeded week like legacy owners were given.
2. Am I right in saying that someone, anyone, with 6,500 points, no matter where they got them, can book in my home resort, any season, for just 7 nights, and they can book there a month before I can book there ?Yes and no- they can book at 13 months- but supposedly only up to 50% of the periods owned by the point inventory
3. Has all of this been made possible because Marriott had some weeks in inventory, at disadvanted locations, and they "converted" those weeks into "points" that could be spent anywhere? Thus increasing the interest level, and the value, of those weak weeks? A good basic premise
4. So they've increased the competition for bookings at MY home resorts, by selling "weeks" (points) at weak resorts ? And if those newbies are resourceful, they can book a full month before me ?See answer to #2- theoretically, you will only be competing with other week owners for the week owners' proportionate share of inventory. I was told unconditionally by someone high placed that this was, in fact, how it would work. There is no written documentation to this, however, but there is no reason to believe at least at this point in time that this is not their intention. However, everything is subject to change at anytime.

 

[musical2]

Maybe I am looking at this too simplistically.

1. We weeks owners own a pool of weeks

A. We reserve our week like we always have.
B. We exchange our week into II
C. We exchange our week into Marriott point system through Marriott Exchange System
D. Trust owners cannot raid our owned weeks unless exchanged
​

2. Trust owners own a pool of point time.

A. Trust owners reserve time from trust pool
B. Trust owners exchange their points from pool for inventory in II
C. Trust owners exchange their points into Marriott exchange for other Marriotts not in Pool through Marriott Exchange system
D. Weeks owners cannot raid Trust owned point time unless exchanged​

I don't see the inequity and I only own weeks. I believe whoever gets to the points in the exchange pool points first wins regardless of whether or not they are weeks owner exchanges or trust owner exchanges if that time is available in the exchange.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

So what is the difference between a Legacy owner and a trust owner? . . . I purchased two weeks directly from Marriott . . . what does that make me?

Poor:hysterical:

 

[DanCali]

Maybe I am looking at this too simplistically.

1. We weeks owners own a pool of weeks

A. We reserve our week like we always have.
B. We exchange our week into II
C. We exchange our week into Marriott point system through Marriott Exchange System
D. Trust owners cannot raid our owned weeks unless exchanged
​

2. Trust owners own a pool of point time.

A. Trust owners reserve time from trust pool
B. Trust owners exchange their points from pool for inventory in II
C. Trust owners exchange their points into Marriott exchange for other Marriotts not in Pool through Marriott Exchange system
D. Weeks owners cannot raid Trust owned point time unless exchanged​

I don't see the inequity and I only own weeks. I believe whoever gets to the points in the exchange pool points first wins regardless of whether or not they are weeks owner exchanges or trust owner exchanges if that time is available in the exchange.

The inequity you are missing is that trust owners can "see" your inventory and access it at will the moment you put your week in points in a given year. If they choose to exchange you then gain access to a "like for like" exchange from the trust.

You, on the other hand, can only see weeks enrolled in points by other weeks members. You ability to gain access to trust inventory depends on their willingness to access converted enrolled weeks.

There are rumors that Marriott will do a lot of comingling of inventory after all to satisfy enrolled weeks demand. But how much do you trust them at this point? The reality seems to be that the system is set up that your points are inferior to trust points in terms of what inventory you can see with them.

 

[DanCali]

It is clear: Trust members are those who have an ownership intgerest in the trust, which is what owns the points that have been sold. So a trust member is one who buys POINTS. The distinction is based on what they own--no more, no less.

BTW you seem to know what reps are saying and doing often. You are always on the side of Marriott no matter what the discussion. Just curious, are you a Marriott sales rep or employee?

Yeah, he was called on it a couple of weeks ago already but he keeps at it...

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=940936&postcount=11

 

[BocaBum99]

JanT, I think BocaBumm is saying that forever keeping all the pools separate is about the dumbest thing he's ever heard (which I agree), and that's why they will allow trust & exchange points to be combined.

Thank you for clarifying my post. This is exactly what I am saying.

 

[rickxylon]

2 points inventories confirmed by Customer Advocacy!

Just spent 45 minutes with them. Very helpful and clear. They confirmed the following:

1-There is a weeks inventory that can only be accessed by weeks owners whether they enroll or not
2- There is an "exchange" inventory of points made up of enrolled owner weeks that are converted to points + any put there by Marriott from the "trust" inventory
3- There is a "trust" inventory of points made up of the initial unsold weeks from the 11 properties plus probably all new future properties

Trust owners have access to "trust" points inventory ONLY. If there request cannot be filled from that inventory, Marriott must give a comparable week from the "trust" inventory to the "exchange" inventory in order to take the requested week from the "exchange" inventory.

Enrolled legacy owners have access to the weeks inventory and ONLY the "exchange" points inventory when they convert to points usage.

If no enrolled legacy weeks owner converts to points, there would be no "exchange" inventory.

Competition for the weeks inventory would remain the same as now. If someone converts to points, they would not be able to compete in this inventory pool and their week would also not be available.

Competition in the "trust" points inventory will be among trust point owners only.

Competition in the "exchange" points inventory is among enrolled legacy owners who convert to points.

If an enrolled legacy owner buys trust points, those trust points DO NOT have access to the "exchange" points inventory ONLY to the "trust" points inventory.

Clear?

 

[DanCali]

Just spent 45 minutes with them. Very helpful and clear. They confirmed the following:

1-There is a weeks inventory that can only be accessed by weeks owners whether they enroll or not
2- There is an "exchange" inventory of points made up of enrolled owner weeks that are converted to points + any put there by Marriott from the "trust" inventory
3- There is a "trust" inventory of points made up of the initial unsold weeks from the 11 properties plus probably all new future properties

Trust owners have access to "trust" points inventory ONLY. If there request cannot be filled from that inventory, Marriott must give a comparable week from the "trust" inventory to the "exchange" inventory in order to take the requested week from the "exchange" inventory.

Enrolled legacy owners have access to the weeks inventory and ONLY the "exchange" points inventory when they convert to points usage.

If no enrolled legacy weeks owner converts to points, there would be no "exchange" inventory.

Competition for the weeks inventory would remain the same as now. If someone converts to points, they would not be able to compete in this inventory pool and their week would also not be available.

Competition in the "trust" points inventory will be among trust point owners only.

Competition in the "exchange" points inventory is among enrolled legacy owners who convert to points.

If an enrolled legacy owner buys trust points, those trust points DO NOT have access to the "exchange" points inventory ONLY to the "trust" points inventory.

Clear?

Yes - very clear, thanks!

So basically what I wrote in post #194 is correct?

 

[BocaBum99]

Just spent 45 minutes with them. Very helpful and clear. They confirmed the following:

1-There is a weeks inventory that can only be accessed by weeks owners whether they enroll or not
2- There is an "exchange" inventory of points made up of enrolled owner weeks that are converted to points + any put there by Marriott from the "trust" inventory
3- There is a "trust" inventory of points made up of the initial unsold weeks from the 11 properties plus probably all new future properties

Trust owners have access to "trust" points inventory ONLY. If there request cannot be filled from that inventory, Marriott must give a comparable week from the "trust" inventory to the "exchange" inventory in order to take the requested week from the "exchange" inventory.

Enrolled legacy owners have access to the weeks inventory and ONLY the "exchange" points inventory when they convert to points usage.

If no enrolled legacy weeks owner converts to points, there would be no "exchange" inventory.

Competition for the weeks inventory would remain the same as now. If someone converts to points, they would not be able to compete in this inventory pool and their week would also not be available.

Competition in the "trust" points inventory will be among trust point owners only.

Competition in the "exchange" points inventory is among enrolled legacy owners who convert to points.

If an enrolled legacy owner buys trust points, those trust points DO NOT have access to the "exchange" points inventory ONLY to the "trust" points inventory.

Clear?

Yes, but very stupid. What you describe is one of the scenarios previously described.

An enrolled week owner once depositing their week for points could end up having less access to inventory than if they just kept their week.

Why would someone willingly and knowingly sign up for such a program?

If this is correct, then FredM has it completely correct. What is does is gives Trust points owners first dibs on Trust inventory. Whenever a Trust owner takes something from the exchange inventory, then something from the Trust needs to be placed into the exchange inventory based on the whims of some Marriott employee or computer algorithm.

Why didn't they just give Trust owners preferential access from 13-months to 11-months from checkin and allow everyone else to access all available inventory at 11 months or something like that? Then, there is no need for an arbitrary algorithm and blocking trades from happening that would normally occur when all parties have access to all inventory?

 

[rickxylon]

Yes - very clear, thanks!

So basically what I wrote in post #194 is correct?

Yes, other than I didn't ask what anyone coud "see".