NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[CMF]

Just spent 45 minutes with them. Very helpful and clear. They confirmed the following:

1-There is a weeks inventory that can only be accessed by weeks owners whether they enroll or not
2- There is an "exchange" inventory of points made up of enrolled owner weeks that are converted to points + any put there by Marriott from the "trust" inventory
3- There is a "trust" inventory of points made up of the initial unsold weeks from the 11 properties plus probably all new future properties

Trust owners have access to "trust" points inventory ONLY. If there request cannot be filled from that inventory, Marriott must give a comparable week from the "trust" inventory to the "exchange" inventory in order to take the requested week from the "exchange" inventory.

Enrolled legacy owners have access to the weeks inventory and ONLY the "exchange" points inventory when they convert to points usage.

If no enrolled legacy weeks owner converts to points, there would be no "exchange" inventory.

Competition for the weeks inventory would remain the same as now. If someone converts to points, they would not be able to compete in this inventory pool and their week would also not be available.

Competition in the "trust" points inventory will be among trust point owners only.

Competition in the "exchange" points inventory is among enrolled legacy owners who convert to points.

If an enrolled legacy owner buys trust points, those trust points DO NOT have access to the "exchange" points inventory ONLY to the "trust" points inventory.

Clear?

And smart Marriott people bet the bank that this would work. I'm not smart enough to believe in it I guess.

Charles

 

[DanCali]

An enrolled week owner once depositing their week for points could end up having less access to inventory than if they just kept their week.

Why would someone willingly and knowingly sign up for such a program?

At the extreme - if there are no trust points owners yet (so no exchanges from trust), and Marriott sticks by the rules they defined, and you are the only person converting in a given year then you have access to zero inventory in points?

 

[BocaBum99]

Yes - very clear, thanks!

So basically what I wrote in post #194 is correct?

What is the trade algorithm between the Trust and Exchange system and how and when is it executed?

This seems like a completely unnecessary complexity.

 

[BocaBum99]

At the extreme - if there are no trust points owners yet (so no exchanges from trust), and Marriott sticks by the rules they defined, and you are the only person converting in a given year then you have access to zero inventory in points?

Exactly. Why would they develop such a bad system? I don't see the advantage to anyone in this model.

I think I may need to re-evaluate my predictions based on new information. I assumed that there were reasonably intelligent people working on this program. If this is indeed how the program has been implemented, I can only assume that the business and product teams who developed it are truly imbeciles. They would be the single best sales prevention team in the industry.

 

[musical2]

The inequity you are missing is that trust owners can "see" your inventory and access it at will the moment you put your week in points in a given year. If they choose to exchange you then gain access to a "like for like" exchange from the trust.

You, on the other hand, can only see weeks enrolled in points by other weeks members. You ability to gain access to trust inventory depends on their willingness to access converted enrolled weeks.

There are rumors that Marriott will do a lot of comingling of inventory after all to satisfy enrolled weeks demand. But how much do you trust them at this point? The reality seems to be that the system is set up that your points are inferior to trust points in terms of what inventory you can see with them.

But won't we also get to see all the points they have already exchanged into the exchange pool when we deposit our converted weeks/points into the exchange pool? Also, when trust owners deposit their points can't we "see" their inventory and access it at will the moment they put their points in a given year. If so, isn't that the same thing?

 

[BocaBum99]

Well, there is some good news. If indeed Marriott implemented a program where you deposit a week, get 7-10% points skimmed so that you can't make an equivalent trade, NOBODY can claim that the reason for skim is to sell you an additional 1000 points. That because that extra 1000 points cannot be combined with your other skimmed points to book a ressie.

Just how stupid is that?

 

[windje2000]

Yes, but very stupid. What you describe is one of the scenarios previously described.

An enrolled week owner once depositing their week for points could end up having less access to inventory than if they just kept their week.

Why would someone willingly and knowingly sign up for such a program?

I think the operative word is knowingly.

 

[SueDonJ]

I just don't understand how anyone can believe whatever they hear about this inventory issue from any Marriott rep. Why does anyone who has heard directly from a rep, whether in email or on the phone or through the website, think that what they've heard is any more valid than what someone else heard? These aren't slight differences in interpretation that we're being treated to!

Think about it. ALL of these (paraphrased) statements that completely contradict each other have been made by Marriott reps:

"Only Trust members will have access to the Trust inventory, no exceptions. Enrolled Weeks members will never have access to Trust inventory."

"Enrolled Weeks members will have access to Trust inventory only after Trust members exchange into non-Trust inventory."

"Enrolled Weeks members will have access to the same Trust inventory above, as well as whatever inventory Marriott - as a Trust member by virtue of the developer inventory they've conveyed to the Trust - releases to the Exchange Company.'

"For practical purposes Enrolled Weeks members will have the exact same access to all Points inventory that Trust members do, but to satisfy the legal requirements the Trust and exchange inventory will be accounted for in separate pools."

"Enrolled Weeks members who purchase an interest in the Trust will be able to combine their total point values for usage on the same basis as a Trust member."

"Enrolled Weeks members who purchase an interest in the Trust will not be able to combine their total point values; their Trust and Enrolled Weeks memberships will remain distinct and be subject to the applicable usage rules of each."

I guess it doesn't hurt at all for folks to continue to post whatever they might learn from any rep, but I don't understand how anyone at this point can think that it helps. Or maybe more importantly, that it's any more correct than any other info floating around here. I'm with Dave here - the ONLY information we will be able to rely on will be that which is confirmed in an official statement from Marriott and can be substantiated by the governing docs. Everything else is just noise.

 

[BocaBum99]

I guess it doesn't hurt at all for folks to continue to post whatever they might learn from any rep, but I don't understand how anyone at this point can think that it helps. I'm with Dave here - the ONLY information we will be able to rely on will be that which is confirmed in an official statement from Marriott and can be substantiated by the governing docs. Everything else is just noise.

Actually, I don't agree with your assertion that the ONLY information is that which is confirmed by an official statement.

In my view, the ONLY information we can rely on is direct interaction with the system which is reported by owners doing trade tests with various ownership types. Just because some executive says that it is supposed to work one way, it does NOT mean the developer coded it that way.

 

[nwstar]

Can you define Legacy owner?

I purchased a Marriott timeshare about four months ago and I'm completely confused about the terminology used here. I know I have an option to convert the week at my resort to points after paying the one time initiation fee and a yearly fee of about $200. My question is that if I do that, does it mean that I'll have problems booking at resorts like the Kauai Lagoons because Marriott sales are now based solely on points and therefore they are part of their inventory trust? When I talked to a representative yesterday she told me that once I convert my weeks to points I will have access to all Marriott inventory including Kauai Lagoons.

Thanks,

Finding out about all the wrongs Marriott has done to Legacy owners with their points launch is like watching a soap opera.

One day Marriott is charging resale owners more than retail. If it was a soap opera it would be a married person with lipstick on the collar. Signs of bad things to come.

Next the skim is found out about. In the soap opera it could be seeing a spouse in an embrace with another person. When Marriott is asked, oh no we aren't doing that, when asked again we are doing that, when asked again, maybe?

Now Marriott is later caught and grudgingly admits that they will never give legacy converters access to trust inventory. Too bad Legacy owners, take it or leave it. We care about the new purchasers, not our past customers.

This is the final betrayal for many. In the soap opera it would be you catching your spouse in bed with another, and when confronted being told by your spouse, this is how it is , accept it or not. I have moved on.

Some here will actually accept such treachery and say what can I do to make it better? The answer to that question from both Marriott and the uncaring spouse is basically the same. Hop into bed with my new lover at any terms I choose or else I really don't care what you do. My new lover/points customer is all I care about, you are yesterday's news.

I wonder what twists and turns will be in next week's episode?

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon

yes, you will not be able to access unsold trust inventory at KL

no, you cannot access all of the resorts...

This is all explained in detail in the beginning of this thread...

yikes

Legacy points < Trust points...

 

[SueDonJ]

Actually, I don't agree with your assertion that the ONLY information is that which is confirmed by an official statement.

In my view, the ONLY information we can rely on is direct interaction with the system which is reported by owners doing trade tests with various ownership types. Just because some executive says that it is supposed to work one way, it does NOT mean the developer coded it that way.

That's true. But if the controversy surrounding this issue is going to be cleared up prior to the system going on-line on July 26th, nothing less than an official statement from Marriott will satisfy as a definitive answer. If one is made and then we find after July 26th that it was incorrect, well, then we would have a legitimate, recorded, official reason to legally challenge the results of the system in action.

Understand, I'm not saying that now we don't have a reason to challenge what we're hearing, just that we don't have a means to demand answers until we see how the system actually works. At this point an official statement is about the best we can hope for.

And DAN? I am definitely NOT apologizing for or excusing or forgiving Marriott this mess. There is absolutely no valid excuse for different Marriott reps to provide answers that are so completely contradictory, to the exact same questions. None. This is inexcusable.

 

[DanCali]

But won't we also get to see all the points they have already exchanged into the exchange pool when we deposit our converted weeks/points into the exchange pool? Also, when trust owners deposit their points can't we "see" their inventory and access it at will the moment they put their points in a given year. If so, isn't that the same thing?

It is not the same thing because your exchanges depend on their exchanges.

If the trust points owners have enough inventory in the trust to get where they want to go you cannot get their inventory even if they have an exchange you want and can't get otherwise. Suppose, at the extreme, they all bank their points to next year - then the way the rules were set up you can't access their inventory this year even if they have what you want.

On the other hand, once you redeem for points in a given year, they have access to your week even if you haven't used them at all yet. Suppose you bank your points to next year - they can access your week this year.

See the difference?

 

[jimf41]

good afternoon

yes, you will not be able to access unsold trust inventory at KL

no, you cannot access all of the resorts...

This is all explained in detail in the beginning of this thread...

yikes

Legacy points < Trust points...

I've been told differently. Trust points and Legacy points are separate. They will never be co-mingled because of the Florida TS law. Weeks in II and weeks or trust points traded for MRP's are different. Evidently MVCI gets to decide where those points/weeks will be placed., either in the trust points pool or the legacy points pool.

If this is the case then anyone will be able to access any resort. I didn't think there would be enough II weeks or weeks traded for MRP's to satisfy demand until I was told historically 33% of owners trade for points. Combine that with the II weeks and let MVCI fill each pool evenly and this system could work.

That's a lot of IF though. Time to pack for a short vacation. Maybe Dave M will has some more definitive info next week.

 

[DanCali]

And DAN? I am definitely NOT apologizing for or excusing or forgiving Marriott this mess. There is absolutely no valid excuse for different Marriott reps to provide answers that are so completely contradictory, to the exact same questions. None. This is inexcusable.

Now that's a post for the sticky area!

 

[BocaBum99]

I've been told differently. Trust points and Legacy points are separate. They will never be co-mingled because of the Florida TS law. Weeks in II and weeks or trust points traded for MRP's are different. Evidently MVCI gets to decide where those points/weeks will be placed., either in the trust points pool or the legacy points pool.

If this is the case then anyone will be able to access any resort. I didn't think there would be enough II weeks or weeks traded for MRP's to satisfy demand until I was told historically 33% of owners trade for points. Combine that with the II weeks and let MVCI fill each pool evenly and this system could work.

That's a lot of IF though. Time to pack for a short vacation. Maybe Dave M will has some more definitive info next week.

I have already debunked the theory that Florida Statutes are preventing the co-mingling of legacy inventory with Trust inventory. Bluegreen does that today. The system as defined in this thread is an implementation choice by Marriott. Not a statutory requirement.

 

[SueDonJ]

Now that's a post for the sticky area!

:rofl:

Imagine? I can hardly believe it myself!

 

[ArtsieAng]

Well, there is some good news. If indeed Marriott implemented a program where you deposit a week, get 7-10% points skimmed so that you can't make an equivalent trade, NOBODY can claim that the reason for skim is to sell you an additional 1000 points. That because that extra 1000 points cannot be combined with your other skimmed points to book a ressie.

Just how stupid is that?

What if you rent points? There has been quite a bit of talk about renting points as an option, should you be short the amount of points required to book a particular reservation.

 

[m61376]

IF the current info. being disseminated by Customer Advocacy (as reported by rickxylon) ends up being verified as the official policy (and Customer Advocacy theoretically is espousing official policy) then the 80% of legacy owners that Marriott projects will not join will theoretically have a better source of inventory than the 20% that Marriott projects will join.

Theoretically, if I am understanding all this right, enrolled week owners converting to points will have the inventory of some fraction of the 20% who possibly joined the program to reserve, since even if 20% join, expectantly a large potion will either go to their owned resort or trade in weeks, so that inventory remains with the week inventory. They will have trust inventory available only insofar as trust owners have requested reservations in the converted owners trading for points pool.

Similarly, weeks owners trading in II will have access to inventory in the trust if a trust owner's request cannot be filled by the <20% of weeks owners who converted to points for the year inventory, in which case Marriott will give II a trust week in exchange for a week owner's deposited week.

If my analysis is correct- even though the converted weeks owners' pool would be the first one tapped for those point owners' trades, the likelihood is that with less than 20% of the inventory versus more than 80% of the inventory still being traded in weeks, more inventory exchanges will occur in II and more trust weeks may be available in II for exchange than to legacy week owners converting to points for direct reservations.

Am I missing something here- because I know that wasn't the intention.

Boca- I understand why you say the real test is when the system goes live. But will that be a real test, or will bulk deposits due to the excess trust inventory at this point in time minimize the impact of these restrictions? I'm guessing the real impact won't be visible for several years, at least until enough trust points are sold to account for most of the peak reservation periods.

What I don't get totally is where either extra points purchased or rented fall in. Does that mean unless 100% of your points are trust points that your use will be limited to the second point pool of converted weeks points.

 

[DanCali]

What if you rent points? There has been quite a bit of talk about renting points as an option, should you be short the amount of points required to book a particular reservation.

Good point... that's two more potential pools!

Points rented from trust owners
Points rented from enrolled weeks

..probably each can access the inventory its supposed to "see"? That makes "their" points more valuable on the rental market than "our" points.

 

[windje2000]

. . .

I guess it doesn't hurt at all for folks to continue to post whatever they might learn from any rep, but I don't understand how anyone at this point can think that it helps. Or maybe more importantly, that it's any more correct than any other info floating around here. I'm with Dave here - the ONLY information we will be able to rely on will be that which is confirmed in an official statement from Marriott and can be substantiated by the governing docs.

Everything else is just noise.

Sue, the existence of 'noise' is in and of itself an interesting tidbit of information. Since all of the various representations cannot be correct, the existence of 'noise' indicates they appear to be telling their existing customer base whatever story will make the sale.

It tells you something about Marriott or perhaps at least some of the sales staff.

A customer base (and referrals) with an historical 50% close rate is a gold mine. They treat it this way at their own peril.

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue, the existence of 'noise' is in and of itself an interesting tidbit of information. Since all of the various representations cannot be correct, the existence of 'noise' indicates they appear to be telling their existing customer base whatever story will make the sale.

It tells you something about Marriott or perhaps at least some of the sales staff.

A customer base (and referrals) with an historical 50% close rate is a gold mine. They treat it this way at their own peril.

Granted, there is definitely some element of sales pitch included here. But not everyone who has contacted Marriott has heard a sales pitch - some folks are simply asking questions and getting answers to those questions without any motive attached. And some of those folks are hearing contradictory info from non-sales staff.

I do agree they're taking a huge risk here by allowing this Customer Relations nightmare to continue. I seriously doubt that Marriott doesn't watch this website, and hasn't more closely watched it since the June 20th roll-out. But we're going on more than 24 hours now that they've allowed this one thread to continue, and more than three days now since the topic was first introduced in that other thread. What are they thinking?! That's a lifetime in online forums, yet STILL posts continue to be made that prove Marriott is allowing this debacle to continue. It makes no sense from a business standpoint, and even I with my reputation as a staunch Marriott supporter can't understand why this is happening.

Every other thread that's been opened since the roll-out has contained some misinformation or confusion, but more because we weren't given enough information, or misconstrued the legal mumbo-jumbo, or misunderstood what Marriott reps were saying. Eventually we've reached a consensus in those threads, though, that could be substantiated. There's no way that the same type of resolution can be reached with respect to this thread - Marriott's contributing voices are far too contradictory to allow any middle ground.

 

[CMF]

I do agree they're taking a huge risk here by allowing this Customer Relations nightmare to continue. I seriously doubt that Marriott doesn't watch this website, and hasn't more closely watched it since the June 20th roll-out. But we're going on more than 24 hours now that they've allowed this one thread to continue, and more than three days now since the topic was first introduced in that other thread. What are they thinking?! That's a lifetime in online forums, yet STILL posts continue to be made that prove Marriott is allowing this debacle to continue. It makes no sense from a business standpoint, and even I with my reputation as a staunch Marriott supporter can't understand why this is happening.

They see us as a tempest in a tea pot - a small tea pot at that.

Charles

 

[gblotter]

A customer base (and referrals) with an historical 50% close rate is a gold mine. They treat it this way at their own peril.

Marriott likely thinks that the unhappy opposition consists of just a few informed tuggers, and that this storm will pass soon enough. Thus they aren't responding to complaints on Bill Marriott's blog, etc. I'm sure they assume the vast uninformed masses will continue to be a gold mine for them if they can just get past this initial rocky phase.

I completely disagree. The storm will not pass, but will in fact get worse as time goes by. Remember, the MVDC is all about selling the dream. When points users cannot reserve at the promised locations during the promised times, then the discontent will broaden way beyond just a few informed tuggers. The confusing contortions of this points program with its different inventory pools and ownership classifications will make it even harder to provide customer satisfaction with reservation availability.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be a Marriott salesperson right now in this down economy. If their job was hard before, it will be even worse now that they cannot make repeat sales of deeded-weeks to a loyal customer base who has become alienated and angered by this new points system.

Think about it ... if Marriott is predicting that only 10-20 percent of legacy owners will enroll in the new points system, that means Marriott is happy to walk away from any repeat business from 80-90 percent of their existing customer base. Any legacy owner who rejects the points system now will be unlikely to embrace it later at an even higher cost. And Marriott is forfeiting any repeat business from legacy owners for deeded-weeks - the only option there is now the resale market.

Good time for a career change to Disney I would think.

 

[puckmanfl]

good evening

gblotter...

I disagree moderately...

The trust resorts have some high value joints (koolina, NCV, Marco, kauai lagoons, lakeshore) etc. There are going to be some good deals especially initially with such large inventory and not many owners. When the points owner requests park city ski, the exchange manager will make an II request and put a 3 bedroom Kauai or Koolina back in the II and give the request to the points member ahead of a legacy week owner makingan II trade...


if given the opportunity with these rules,i would accept the skim and trade my deeds for my points minus skim in the new trust points world...my MF's would go up $4oo but it would be worth it..13666 trust points would be more valuable than what i have... as orlando and hawaii are in the trust!!!

Think about it, MVCD HAS to make this work. It is a zero sum game, every advantage given to a trust member comes in some way from a legacy owner.

The only issue with trust points is the CURRENT price