NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[MikeZ]

I have a very simple question and I apologize in advance if this is not the place to ask it. I have tried to keep up with all the info posted and am more confused then ever

I own 2 EOY weeks at Waiohai and if I could not get a trade to another Marriott HI resort I would be very content staying at Waiohai for 2 weeks.

Will I have trouble booking my 2 weeks at my home resort of Waiohai if I don't join this new points system???

Our flexibility for 2012 & 2014 will be May thru August and December. 2016 and forward we will have total flexibility.

Many thanks in advance.
Stephanie

Stephanie, I believe that you should have no problem making your normal home resort reservations at Waiohai, regardless of whether or not you enroll in the program.

 

[auntdef]

Thank you Mike.
S.

 

[BocaBum99]

There is a partial way out of this mess if Marriott shows some intelligence. Of course, given how this program was launched and designed, it is highly questionable whether or not they have smart people working on the project.

I think what Marriott could do is tag some of the inventory in the Trust as NOT available for exchange. It would be the highest demand weeks in the trust which are going to be reserved for Trust owners. Then, what they can do is make all of the rest of the Trust inventory available to all enrolled points owners. In other words, all of this inventory can be seen by enrolled points owners. The only thing left out is some units they know will be used by Trust owners.

Then, all they need to do is make sure that there is a rough balance of trade at the end of each quarter or year. No super secret algorithm needs to be created to determine which units gets placed into exchange inventory. The market of points owners decide the equilibrium point of trades between the inventory pool by the trades they make.

This is in essence what Bluegreen and Shell did when it created the Select Connections joint venture. It is a points exchange facility where Bluegreen makes a portion of its real time inventory available to Shell owners and vice versa. Bluegreen has a point table for Shell Resorts. Shell has a point table for Bluegreen resorts. It works pretty well. Both sides give real time access to each others inventory. Bluegreen takes out some resorts and some unit types and so does Shell. It has access to all inventory, not just want gets traded.

This could work for Marriott. I hope they thought of something like this if they have 2 inventory pools If they did, then this isn't going to be too bad. We will know when we can see the systems live.

 

[SueDonJ]

But this whole "enrolling" is a sham because your points are not like points you buy retail... they charge you an enrollment fee for nothing.

What exactly do you gain now by enrolling? Take an extreme example where Marriott priced retail points at $100/point and nothing sells... Do you gain anything by being enrolled in this scenario? In this case, you see none of the trust inventory and the only thing it allows you to do is downtrades with others who enrolled (and paid Marriott a hefty fee). Now suppose they actually do sell lots of points, but the Trust has sufficient inventory to satisfy them all and they don't need legacy inventory. You get the same result. The only way you get to see trust inventory is if your get to be the lackey for the trust and satisfy their overflow demand. That may take years and may never happen - but you do pay the initiation fee now.

Well, first, I find it hard to believe that there will not be inter-mingling of Trust and Enrolled Weeks inventory in the Exchange Program. Consider that even if NO Trust Member ever wants an Enrolled or Un-enrolled Week as an exchange, any Trust Members' exchanges for Marriott Reward Points or other Destination Club options will result in Trust inventory being deposited into the Exchange Company.

But okay, lets go with your scenario that NO Trust inventory ever is made available by Trust Members to Exchange Members.

Then by enrolling now I would still get access to the fee structure for exchanging my Weeks through II, which is less than the fee structure if I do not enroll. I would still get access to the other Destination Club options, as they exist now and as they develop in the future, including the ability to exchange to intervals which have been deposited in the Exchange Company by other Exchange Members. I would still be able to use my Weeks at my home resort.

I think the better question is, what does an Exchange Member lose by enrolling now? Considering that I believe what we all bought into, the Marriott Weeks system, no longer exists as it did prior to June 20th, we've all lost something. Those who enroll now are "losing" our enrollment fees, but we're still gaining options that are not available if we do not enroll.

 

[Cindala]

The hardest thing to figure out is the algorithm for what gets transferred between the Trust pool and the Exchange pool. Is it done week for week? Point for point? Request first? Deposit first?

That's the worst thing about all this....we won't be able to figure out where they are pulling their inventory from nor will we be able to prove where it's being pulled from or if it's correct or not. That's what Marriott is counting on; smoke and mirrors.

 

[MikeM132]

I was the OP of the original thread that infamously took a turn at post #16.
When we were at the presentation at MCV, and after we refused to buy points or enroll our weeks, we had to sign a document that states we could not enroll our weeks later if we changed our mind. It was now or never.
I HATE this tactic and simply made it easier to decline.

Diamond Resorts has the same policy and we declined their program as well.

I'm giving you the benefit of doubt but ANYWHERE else on the internet I would accuse you of being a troll.

 

[GregT]

Well, first, I find it hard to believe that there will not be inter-mingling of Trust and Enrolled Weeks inventory in the Exchange Program. Consider that even if NO Trust Member ever wants an Enrolled or Un-enrolled Week as an exchange, any Trust Members' exchanges for Marriott Reward Points or other Destination Club options will result in Trust inventory being deposited into the Exchange Company.

But okay, lets go with your scenario that NO Trust inventory ever is made available by Trust Members to Exchange Members.

Then by enrolling now I would still get access to the fee structure for exchanging my Weeks through II, which is less than the fee structure if I do not enroll. I would still get access to the other Destination Club options, as they exist now and as they develop in the future, including the ability to exchange to intervals which have been deposited in the Exchange Company by other Exchange Members. I would still be able to use my Weeks at my home resort.

I think the better question is, what does an Exchange Member lose by enrolling now? Considering that I believe what we all bought into, the Marriott Weeks system, no longer exists as it did prior to June 20th, we've all lost something. Those who enroll now are "losing" our enrollment fees, but we're still gaining options that are not available if we do not enroll.

Sue, I agree with you.

I also believe that the two pools will be functionally co-mingled, and therefore I expect most people will get the exchanges they want. I think we are dealing with the previous expectation/belief that the Trust Inventory would be effectively be a bulk deposit that Legacy Points Members would be able to easily access -- we now suspect that there is a gatekeeper controlling that bulk deposit. Even if we do get our trades this year, it is a little bit concerning if we will get it next year.

I also agree with your point on fees -- there is still a basis for enrollment for the fee reduction possibility, and importantly, to keep the options open to benefit from the system as it evolves (Flexchange, renting points, etc). BocaBum is right that if you're in the system, you can figure out where the inventory is, and figure out how to get it most cost-effectively.

But it's getting even more difficult to rationalize ever actually redeeming weeks for points. Why would I put my 3BR MOC in for (skimmed) points, and then take the chance that I will actually get the trade I want, if it's not immediately confirmable from the Trust?

Best to all,

Greg

 

[skimble]

This is a long thread... so forgive if these points have already been brought up.
This resembles RCI Weeks to RCI Points transition in some ways:
1. RCI skimmed Weeks to bolster Points. It sounds like Marriott has been doing that.
2. RCI claimed that Points inventory was deposited into Weeks to offset those withdrawn. This sounds like the legacy skim and the limited points weeks access legacy owners will have.
3. RCI rents a large portion of prime inventory. There's no timeshare mini-system more apt, more prepared, and more able to rent than Marriott... and they can do it with ease and without justification. They have direct websites, ties to Expedia and all the other hotel rental sites. And, they can get premium $$ for it.
Are they screwing the Marriott owners... yes and no. Yes, legacy ownership changed, but you still have a tradeable ownership... but if it's like RCI, your access to decent trades are going to diminish slowly.

 

[kedler]

But this whole "enrolling" is a sham because your points are not like points you buy retail... they charge you an enrollment fee for nothing.

What exactly do you gain now by enrolling? Take an extreme example where Marriott priced retail points at $100/point and nothing sells... Do you gain anything by being enrolled in this scenario? In this case, you see none of the trust inventory and the only thing it allows you to do is downtrades with others who enrolled (and paid Marriott a hefty fee). Now suppose they actually do sell lots of points, but the Trust has sufficient inventory to satisfy them all and they don't need legacy inventory. You get the same result. The only way you get to see trust inventory is if your get to be the lackey for the trust and satisfy their overflow demand. That may take years and may never happen - but you do pay the initiation fee now.

The Trust Inventory presently consists of 11 out of 53 resorts. To think that all the Points Owners are just going to use the trust inventory and not want to go to the other 53 resorts does not make sense.

Prior to the release of the Points Program, and I think afterwards (I quit reading that thread) everyone was all agitated because we were afraid that the Points Owners were going to be able to take our weeks. People wanted two pools and now that people are realizing that there are three pools everyone is upset again.

Points or Weeks everyone gets a DEEDED interest in timeshare property - either a specific resort or a % of a MVC Property Trust. If you deed a real estate interest you have to have a right to use that interest - legally - or the lawsuits would start flying starting with the State of FL suing Marriott.

We can call up or go online and reserve our week. Nothing Marriott did changes that process so Marriott cannot give the Trust owners access to our weeks UNLESS we CHOOSE to give our week to Marriott's Exchange Company. Just as we chose to give our week to II in the past because Marriott did not have an internal exchange program. As I understand it many people were upset with II and wanted Marriott to develop at internal exchange program - there is a saying "be careful what you ask for you might just get it" that is applicable in this situation.

It makes sense that we don't have the right to use what the Points Owner bought unless the Points Owner CHOOSES to give us that right by exchanging points through Marriott's Exchange Company because that makes their rights = to our rights. WE each get to keep our deeded right and the other one can't have it unless we share!! MEC is the sandbox in which we all have to play nicely and Marriott is the referee!!

We also have a right to try to get internal week exchange through II without regard to points as we've always done (minus the fees) and Points owners do not have that right all their II requests are based on a Points chart.

All in all IMO Enrolled Owners > or = Points Owners

 

[Fredm]

We can call up or go online and reserve our week. Nothing Marriott did changes that process so Marriott cannot give the Trust owners access to our weeks UNLESS we CHOOSE to give our week to Marriott's Exchange Company. Just as we chose to give our week to II in the past because Marriott did not have an internal exchange program. As I understand it many people were upset with II and wanted Marriott to develop at internal exchange program - there is a saying "be careful what you ask for you might just get it" that is applicable in this situation.

It makes sense that we don't have the right to use what the Points Owner bought unless the Points Owner CHOOSES to give us that right by exchanging points through Marriott's Exchange Company because that makes their rights = to our rights. WE each get to keep our deeded right and the other one can't have it unless we share!! MEC is the sandbox in which we all have to play nicely and Marriott is the referee!!

We also have a right to try to get internal week exchange through II without regard to points as we've always done (minus the fees) and Points owners do not have that right all their II requests are based on a Points chart.

All in all IMO Enrolled Owners > or = Points Owners

That's the way I look at it.

 

[skimble]

Marriott is just like all the rest... they care about:
1. Maintaining Sales
2. Filling units with paying (owners/customers.)


To do these things in this economy, they have to make new ownership FAR greater to existing owners and new buyers. The pot has to be SO much sweeter, you'll choose to change just to get back what you had 10 years ago. This is true for all the mini-systems.
They must stifle the value of resales-- in a world where information abounds, resale timeshares are readily available.

 

[SueDonJ]

kedler, thanks so much for your posts - you have a good way of saying things so that they're easily understood, and it's very helpful to "read" you.

(I don't mean to imply that anyone else isn't as read-able or helpful, but for whatever reason kedler's posts resonate a little bit more with me. YMMV)

 

[MikeM132]

I found this on another (ahem) website....some of you know where. It described useage of all Marriott units. From this, it appears "pure points" owners might have exclusive use of a pretty small block of units, all unsold. Unless I am missing something, Marriott can only sell points for available units (not sure about available seasons). If Grand Ocean is sold out for platinum, Marriott has nothing to sell there. They can only sell the number of platinum intervals they have at unsold (or future) resorts. Otherwise, they'd have sold the same interval twice. Even if just points in the trust, there must be an underlying interval there somewhere to be legal. At least that's how I understand it. Please take a look at the following (agree with it or not, supposedly came direct from Marriott) and see if you also conclude legacy owners dominate the inventory:

Some interesting numbers from a Marriott rep:

27% of Inventory each year is kept by owners staying in their home club. This is the ONLY inventory you do not have access to.

43% of Inventory will be those who exchange into Interval or elect points for the year. As an enrolled owner, you have access to both of these pools - exchanged II weeks from owners who don't enroll and Elected Weeks.

21% of Inventory will come from owners who trade for Marriott Rewards Points

9% of Inventory will be all unsold weeks (and delinquent weeks).

 

[SueDonJ]

Sue, I agree with you.

I also believe that the two pools will be functionally co-mingled, and therefore I expect most people will get the exchanges they want. I think we are dealing with the previous expectation/belief that the Trust Inventory would be effectively be a bulk deposit that Legacy Points Members would be able to easily access -- we now suspect that there is a gatekeeper controlling that bulk deposit. Even if we do get our trades this year, it is a little bit concerning if we will get it next year.

I also agree with your point on fees -- there is still a basis for enrollment for the fee reduction possibility, and importantly, to keep the options open to benefit from the system as it evolves (Flexchange, renting points, etc). BocaBum is right that if you're in the system, you can figure out where the inventory is, and figure out how to get it most cost-effectively.

But it's getting even more difficult to rationalize ever actually redeeming weeks for points. Why would I put my 3BR MOC in for (skimmed) points, and then take the chance that I will actually get the trade I want, if it's not immediately confirmable from the Trust?

Best to all,

Greg

I know! That's the same thing I hate about II - you have to wait! I think there will be successful exchanges through the Exchange Company, although it may take some time for the inventory to co-mingle to the point where immediate exchanges can be confirmed and/or availability is spread over a wide range of intervals. Again, hate to wait, but at least there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[mjbaran]

independent audit for Exchanges Program exchanges

from the last page of the Disclosure Guide:

"As of February 1, 2010, there were no Members enrolled in the Program. If required by applicable law, an independent audit for Exchange Program exchanges will be conducted annually. The percentage of confirmed exchanges contained in any such audit will be a summary and should not be relied upon when determining probability of obtaining a particular requested reservation."

Results of this independent audit could make for good reading.

 

[musical2]

But it's not...

Trust owners have priority because they can access enrolled weeks inventory at will. You can only access trust inventory after they make an exchange and are limited to that.

If they have a week you need but trust owners use only trust inventory for their reservations you're out of luck. If you have a week they need they can grab it anytime, even if enrolled weeks were to trade only among themselves (in the latter example, one enrolled week member may be forced to roll points over because a trust member took a redeemed legacy week).

Will Marriott make it more seamless than that? I would hope so... but that doesn't change the underlying system and that at some point this will catch up to and bite legacy owners somewhere...

I don't think we are seeing this the same way. And that's OK. Just because I enroll my week, I don't think it comes available the inventory to take until I decide to trade it for the points it is worth. The same way with the trust inventory. Their points don't become available to me until they decide to trade it for something in the exchange pool. I would hope I would be able to see what is in the exchange pool before I decide to trade my week for points in any given year. Once I see inventory I want, then I can trade my week for points and grab it.

By the way, I have not yet decided to join this thing. I am just trying to think through the way it will work.

 

[DanCali]

I don't think we are seeing this the same way. And that's OK. Just because I enroll my week, I don't think it comes available the inventory to take until I decide to trade it for the points it is worth. The same way with the trust inventory. Their points don't become available to me until they decide to trade it for something in the exchange pool.

What you say is correct, but you are supporting my argument...

You week becomes available to the trust once you trade it for points. Once you trade for points, your points AUTOMATICALLY go to the exchange company and can be grabbed by trust owners. On the other hand, trust Owners' points go to the exchange company only if their inventory is not in the trust.

It would be more equitable if once you trade for points you can grab anything in the trust just as they can grab your week (i.e. points are points...).

I think (maybe) a good analogy unrelated to cookies owners is thinking about the II world. In terms of possibilities with the exchange company, Trust Members can book at their home resort, or log into Marriott Exchange Co (think like it is "II") and make an "instant exchange" (for enrolled weeks that were traded for points). A weeks owner can reserve their home resort or, to play with points, has to do a "deposit first" and then can grab any available inventory in the Exchange Co. Trust Members have access to Exchange Co Inventory without depositing, so you never see their inventory unless they exchange.

It's the fact that to play in points, you are doing a "deposit first" action while retail points don't that bothers people here. If Trust Members don't like the Exchange Co inventory (which they see anytime), you never have access to their inventory (because you see it only when they exchange).

 

[BocaBum99]

Boca, what's tough is that at least with II trades, it was an independent company, and you could expect that II would only accept a comparably powered week if it is surrenduring a week to Marriott.

Now, however who watches over the fairness of trades between the Trust Points Inventory and the Legacy Points Inventory? There's no transparency, and we have lost confidence in Marriott's judgment/fairness/treatment of existing owners.

It would be very very easy to manipulate/abuse this and transfer the valuable weeks from the Legacy Points Inventory into the Trust Points Inventory and get back who knows what?

Wow Wow Wow Wow Wow. I am blown away.

I agree that Marriott can cheat. However, I need to give them the benefit of the doubt. They will likely attempt to make the Exchange facility successful. Otherwise, there won't be any weeks available to Trust owners.

If you read my post #303, there is an approach that Marriott can use to make 2 inventory pools work given the rules as stated. Time will tell if they are smart enough to implement such an approach. If they don't, there are 2 things that will happen that threatens the viability of the exchange facility.

1) There won't be much in the exchange pool. If that lasts long, it doesn't matter how hard Marriott tries to sell, it will fail. I don't think Marriott will allow it to fail especially since Marriott is collecting upfront and annual fees to make it work.

2) If they don't implement the approach I suggest or something similarly straight forward, it will be virtually impossible to manage the trades between the Trust and the Exchange facility. They will want to implement a straight forward approach to make their job easier. Barriers to exchange do not serve Marriott's needs. Protecting inventory does for Trust owners. But, not preventing exchanges from occurring.

The good news is that we will know shortly as we do some internal trade tests to see what the following owner types see in points:

1) enrolled points owners who deposit their week for points.

2) Trust owners.

3) Owners of both

The question is what happens to rental points that are transferred between owners? My guess is that they default to exchange only points, not Trust points.

After thinking about it, this program can work. We will know shortly. If anyone converts or purchases Trust points, let me know and we can coordinate a trade test.

 

[californiagirl]

Just like with whatever advantages they've given to developer-direct buyers over external resale, and multi-week owners over single-week, and Platinum Elites over Gold over Silver in the MR program ... it is what it is. Marriott has always determined for itself its priority customer, this is no different.

Not saying that those who feel like red-headed stepchildren don't have a right to those feelings here, just that IMO it doesn't serve any good purpose to foster those feelings.

I completely disagree. I have been up until now one of Marriott's biggest fans. The difference here is that all of the above advantages were transparent to a purchaser. You could weigh the pros and cons of developer vs resale and the difference in seasons etc. This is not in any way transparent. Some people (including me) were being told that "points are points" by official Marriott reps. Now there is a very good argument to make that points are entirely different depending on who you are in the Marriott system. If this is true, then I absolutely feel like I am a red-headed stepchild and the purpose for me in fostering that feeling is to share with others "around the pool" at MOC is that Marriott has lost my trust big time. They are not being honest with the product they are selling. (Whether intentional or by ignorance doesn't matter because a company like Marriott should have all their ducks in a row before they launch something of this magnitude.) Marriott needs to know that it is not okay to treat loyal customers so poorly. The word Marriott is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Now if we are interpreting this incorrectly and points really are points, I will be very happy. Unfortunately the way this new program has been administered has tarnished Marriott in my mind.

 

[BocaBum99]

I completely disagree. I have been up until now one of Marriott's biggest fans. The difference here is that all of the above advantages were transparent to a purchaser. You could weigh the pros and cons of developer vs resale and the difference in seasons etc. This is not in any way transparent. Some people (including me) were being told that "points are points" by official Marriott reps. Now there is a very good argument to make that points are entirely different depending on who you are in the Marriott system. If this is true, then I absolutely feel like I am a red-headed stepchild and the purpose for me in fostering that feeling is to share with others "around the pool" at MOC is that Marriott has lost my trust big time. They are not being honest with the product they are selling. (Whether intentional or by ignorance doesn't matter because a company like Marriott should have all their ducks in a row before they launch something of this magnitude.) Marriott needs to know that it is not okay to treat loyal customers so poorly. The word Marriott is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

Now if we are interpreting this incorrectly and points really are points, I will be very happy. Unfortunately the way this new program has been administered has tarnished Marriott in my mind.

There is no question that this program has been rolled out very poorly. It's too bad that Marriott didn't create a focus group from a cross section of TUG members to review the product and the product guides. If they did that, we could have provided them with great customer feedback on what the product should actually do and how it should be communicated. More importantly, that focus group could act as a communication vehicle for the product and program.

That said, I believe it is possible for this program to work. I think we need to now wait for the actual product to come out and kick the tires on it.

Up until now, we have been discussing a new product based on its brochure as opposed to the actual product.

We should probably reserve judgement until we see the real product. It's still possible to make it really good. Or, it could turn out to be as bad as well all feared. The truth will probably be somewhere in the middle.

 

[DanCali]

We should probably reserve judgement until we see the real product. It's still possible to make it really good. Or, it could turn out to be as bad as well all feared. The truth will probably be somewhere in the middle.

But whatever smoke and mirrors they use to make it appear like it works doesn't change the fact that it was set up such that Trust Points > Legacy Points...

If this is true, then I absolutely feel like I am a red-headed stepchild and the purpose for me in fostering that feeling is to share with others "around the pool" at MOC is that Marriott has lost my trust big time. They are not being honest with the product they are selling. (Whether intentional or by ignorance doesn't matter because a company like Marriott should have all their ducks in a row before they launch something of this magnitude.) Marriott needs to know that it is not okay to treat loyal customers so poorly. The word Marriott is leaving a bad taste in my mouth

I agree. The press could care less about this because (i) timeshares are not as sexy as cars or smartphone and (ii) this industry already has a shady reputation. Marriott will continue fleecing old customers in favor of new ones only it it feels that the benefits outweigh the costs. If several thousands of owners start blasting Marriott "around the pool" that will ultimately affect their cost-benefit analysis.

This version of the points program is a result of lack of adult supervision and it is time for the parents to intervene or the house may burn down...

 

[puckmanfl]

Good evening

The new math

Legacy week -"skim"= legacy points < trust points....

 

[GregT]

Legacy week -"skim"= legacy points < trust points....

And we may not even be done yet.

I like the new math.

Best,

Greg

 

[hotcoffee]

We should probably reserve judgement until we see the real product. It's still possible to make it really good. Or, it could turn out to be as bad as well all feared. The truth will probably be somewhere in the middle.

BocaBum,

You and others should not be jumping to conclusions. The Destination Points Disclosure document does not support the conclusions that posters here seem to have arrived at.

 

[DanCali]

Good evening

The new math

Legacy week -"skim"= legacy points < trust points....

Correction...

Legacy week -"skim" - $165/$199 = legacy points < trust points....