NO Access to trusts pool by enrolled owners (Marriott's response - post #447)

[Ricci]

What would have happened if you had told them to f*ck off and just walked out? Try it sometime. Crazy is in

:hysterical:

 

[camachinist]

What isn't clear is if you are a legacy points owner. Will your account be able to accept Trust points?

IMO, looking at the interface, it's unclear how the 'My Points' section will handle and combine or delineate enrolled points from trust points. My bet is there is some methodology to operate with *both* point types from that control panel. I say that because of the constant delineation between 'Vacation Club Points Owner' and 'Enrolled Owner' in most areas of the control panel.

 

[musical2]

It is not the same thing because your exchanges depend on their exchanges.

If the trust points owners have enough inventory in the trust to get where they want to go you cannot get their inventory even if they have an exchange you want and can't get otherwise. Suppose, at the extreme, they all bank their points to next year - then the way the rules were set up you can't access their inventory this year even if they have what you want.

On the other hand, once you redeem for points in a given year, they have access to your week even if you haven't used them at all yet. Suppose you bank your points to next year - they can access your week this year.

See the difference?

I don't buy that. It seems to me that once the trust deposits points into the exchange to get one of the "weeks" inventory, I would have access to those trust points to use in the trust inventory. Thus, it still seems to be the same.

 

[MikeZ]

MY answer from Marriott

After to days of research and supervisor interventions, this is the response that I received this morning. It supports the majority of the posters here. I think the "cookie jar" analogy is the best representation of what we are in for, if we enroll. Sorry, "points are points" just isn't accurate...

Good Morning,

I hope this answers your question, regarding how the inventory works between the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program and the Weeks program, there are 3 types of inventory:

Weeks Inventory: The inventory set aside for Weeks Owners and Enrolled Owners who have purchased the traditional Weeks program at a specific resort. This inventory is only accessible to those Owners who own weeks.

Trust Inventory: The inventory set aside for Vacation Club Points Owners who have purchased in the Trust. Only Vacation Club Point Owners have access to this inventory.

Exchange Inventory: Inventory is added when Enrolled Owners elect to exchange for Vacation Club Points. Also, when a Vacation Club Points Owner reserves inventory from the Exchange Inventory, Trust inventory will be added to the Exchange Inventory in an equal value. Both Enrolled Owners who elect and Vacation Club Points Owners have access to the Exchange Inventory.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

 

[CMF]

I was the OP of the original thread that infamously took a turn at post #16.
When we were at the presentation at MCV, and after we refused to buy points or enroll our weeks, we had to sign a document that states we could not enroll our weeks later if we changed our mind. It was now or never.
I HATE this tactic and simply made it easier to decline.

Diamond Resorts has the same policy and we declined their program as well.

This is lunacy. It deserves a thread of it's own.

Charles

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon

musical

the difference is subtle but real...

Trust owners have access to ALL point inventory( Trust and exchange company). A legacy owner has access to exchange company and then TRUST inventory corresponding to any inventory taken from the Exchange company

For example..
100,000 units in trust.. + 20,000 legacy units in exchange
today 7/16 there are 1000 trust owners...
each one of of these owners has the"run of the house" for the 120,000 units in the point inventory.
A trust owner takes a leagacy week from the exchange company (1 unit)
ALL legacy owners have access to the point equivalent of that ONE unit...
not the 100,000 in the trust!!!

Trust owners have access to 120,000 units, legacy has access to 20,001



of course these are simplistic exaggerations to make the point!!!

 

[5infam]

After to days of research and supervisor interventions, this is the response that I received this morning. It supports the majority of the posters here. I think the "cookie jar" analogy is the best representation of what we are in for, if we enroll. Sorry, "points are points" just isn't accurate...

Good Morning,

I hope this answers your question, regarding how the inventory works between the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program and the Weeks program, there are 3 types of inventory:

Weeks Inventory: The inventory set aside for Weeks Owners and Enrolled Owners who have purchased the traditional Weeks program at a specific resort. This inventory is only accessible to those Owners who own weeks.

Trust Inventory: The inventory set aside for Vacation Club Points Owners who have purchased in the Trust. Only Vacation Club Point Owners have access to this inventory.

Exchange Inventory: Inventory is added when Enrolled Owners elect to exchange for Vacation Club Points. Also, when a Vacation Club Points Owner reserves inventory from the Exchange Inventory, Trust inventory will be added to the Exchange Inventory in an equal value. Both Enrolled Owners who elect and Vacation Club Points Owners have access to the Exchange Inventory.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

Thanks Mike!

I guess if we as weeks owners, convert to points and put our week in, then how do they figure out what to put in from the trust? If trust points were tied to a specific home resort, then I guess it would look like II does today, but since it is anything, do they just put in for what they have requests for? Can't figure out how that is going to work in my brain yet - I guess I am still thinking weeks and not points.

 

[GregT]

Who gets the Week?

I'm reluctant to add further turbulence to this issue, but it does present a fundamental question:

Who gets a rare week first?

Assume for a moment that a July 4th NCV week is very desirable (and it is).

Let's assume the following have all requested that tough trade:

1) Premier legacy point owner who submitted exchange request on August 1, 2011
2) Premier Plus Trust Point owner who submitted identical exchange request on September 1, 2011
3) Interval International member who submitted exchange request in II on July 1, 2011 and has extremely strong deposit available

Then assume that the owner of the actual week deposits their July 4, 2012 NCV reservation into Interval International on September 15, 2011 -- which could match all three trade requests.

Unless Marriott points (or more importantly the week that Marriott offers in exchange) are very very strong traders in II, I would think the week would go to #3 above.

However, if Marriott points are very very strong traders in II, and we know that Marriott can make trades with II by making comparable exchanges (maybe they offer a summer Kauai Lagoons because they have KL to burn and it's scarce/strong to II), then Marriott gets the NCV week.

So, now Marriott has the NCV week -- who gets it, #1 or #2? Is it the person who requested first? Or the person with Trust Points (and Premier Plus?)

And, bummer for #3 above, because now they have to keep waiting (and may still sit behind #1/#2 that didn't get the trade).

There is much we will learn about the trading process and the pecking order, but like Puck, I'm not loving the the hypothesis:

Legacy Points < Trust Points

Good luck to all,

Greg

 

[GregT]

After to days of research and supervisor interventions, this is the response that I received this morning. It supports the majority of the posters here. I think the "cookie jar" analogy is the best representation of what we are in for, if we enroll. Sorry, "points are points" just isn't accurate...

Good Morning,

I hope this answers your question, regarding how the inventory works between the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program and the Weeks program, there are 3 types of inventory:

Weeks Inventory: The inventory set aside for Weeks Owners and Enrolled Owners who have purchased the traditional Weeks program at a specific resort. This inventory is only accessible to those Owners who own weeks.

Trust Inventory: The inventory set aside for Vacation Club Points Owners who have purchased in the Trust. Only Vacation Club Point Owners have access to this inventory.

Exchange Inventory: Inventory is added when Enrolled Owners elect to exchange for Vacation Club Points. Also, when a Vacation Club Points Owner reserves inventory from the Exchange Inventory, Trust inventory will be added to the Exchange Inventory in an equal value. Both Enrolled Owners who elect and Vacation Club Points Owners have access to the Exchange Inventory.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

Wow, we legacy point owners are the red headed step child.

 

[puckmanfl]

good morning

It's worse than that. Inventory from the trust does not go in exchange pool for legacy owners UNTIL a trust owner pulls something out of exchange company. It will most likely be "point for point"...

A trust owner pulls a ski week in Park city from exchange company. MVCD can take 6 (1000 dog weeks from the trust) and put them in exchange company for legacy owners to grab

Is everyone gettingthe negative ramifications now..


A legacy owner converts a week to points, gets skimmed %5-10% in the process and gets a substandard point for his troubles!!!!

yikes...

yikes, after the 7/26 test drive back to weeks for me!!!!

 

[puckmanfl]

good afternoon

Dan said it best....

some poor resale owner is going to pay 2K, to go from one asterisk to another...

 

[SueDonJ]

Thanks Mike!

I guess if we as weeks owners, convert to points and put our week in, then how do they figure out what to put in from the trust? If trust points were tied to a specific home resort, then I guess it would look like II does today, but since it is anything, do they just put in for what they have requests for? Can't figure out how that is going to work in my brain yet - I guess I am still thinking weeks and not points.

I don't think it's a pre-determined interval that moves from the Trust to the Exchange Company when a Trust Member uses Points to exchange out - I think it's as Dioxide said, the first request from an Exchange Member with enough Points to book an equal or less-than (in Point value, not Week value) interval will get what s/he's requesting.

 

[BocaBum99]

After to days of research and supervisor interventions, this is the response that I received this morning. It supports the majority of the posters here. I think the "cookie jar" analogy is the best representation of what we are in for, if we enroll. Sorry, "points are points" just isn't accurate...

Good Morning,

I hope this answers your question, regarding how the inventory works between the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations program and the Weeks program, there are 3 types of inventory:

Weeks Inventory: The inventory set aside for Weeks Owners and Enrolled Owners who have purchased the traditional Weeks program at a specific resort. This inventory is only accessible to those Owners who own weeks.

Trust Inventory: The inventory set aside for Vacation Club Points Owners who have purchased in the Trust. Only Vacation Club Point Owners have access to this inventory.

Exchange Inventory: Inventory is added when Enrolled Owners elect to exchange for Vacation Club Points. Also, when a Vacation Club Points Owner reserves inventory from the Exchange Inventory, Trust inventory will be added to the Exchange Inventory in an equal value. Both Enrolled Owners who elect and Vacation Club Points Owners have access to the Exchange Inventory.

Please let me know if you have further questions.

This appears to be emerging as the correct answer to the question of inventory pools.

It is absolutely lunacy to manage it this way.

The hardest thing to figure out is the algorithm for what gets transferred between the Trust pool and the Exchange pool. Is it done week for week? Point for point? Request first? Deposit first?

What happens when an enrolled member wants only 3 nights from a week at Marco island? Does only the 3 nights get moved to exchange inventory? Or, does a whole week get moved to exchange to fulfill the request?
Where does the other 4 days of inventory go? And, does it happen only after a Trust owner takes a week out?

This is the most ludicrously designed points system ever. Marriott forces an answer to how inventory pools can interact instead of putting all inventory in one pool and set rules for when it can be reserved.

This whole 2 inventory pool issue could have been easily solved by having 1 inventory pool and allowing Trust points to have something like a 30-day exclusive window into the inventory.

The way Marriott has designed this system is that it is creating a point system that takes away one of the greatest benefits of a point system which is the predictability of inventory.

 

[GregT]

good morning

It's worse than that. Inventory from the trust does not go in exchange pool for legacy owners UNTIL a trust owner pulls something out of exchange company. It will most likely be "point for point"...

A trust owner pulls a ski week in Park city from exchange company. MVCD can take 6 (1000 dog weeks from the trust) and put them in exchange company for legacy owners to grab

Is everyone gettingthe negative ramifications now..


A legacy owner converts a week to points, gets skimmed %5-10% in the process and gets a substandard point for his troubles!!!!

yikes...

yikes, after the 7/26 test drive back to weeks for me!!!!

This sounds like exactly what Wyndham would do.

Very sad, I remember the days (only 30 days ago) when I thought Marriott would do the right thing by its customers.

Now, we've got skimming, and Legacy Points < Trust Points.

Very disappointing.

 

[GregT]

The hardest thing to figure out is the algorithm for what gets transferred between the Trust pool and the Exchange pool. Is it done week for week? Point for point? Request first? Deposit first?

Boca, what's tough is that at least with II trades, it was an independent company, and you could expect that II would only accept a comparably powered week if it is surrenduring a week to Marriott.

Now, however who watches over the fairness of trades between the Trust Points Inventory and the Legacy Points Inventory? There's no transparency, and we have lost confidence in Marriott's judgment/fairness/treatment of existing owners.

It would be very very easy to manipulate/abuse this and transfer the valuable weeks from the Legacy Points Inventory into the Trust Points Inventory and get back who knows what?

Wow Wow Wow Wow Wow. I am blown away.

 

[DanCali]

I don't buy that. It seems to me that once the trust deposits points into the exchange to get one of the "weeks" inventory, I would have access to those trust points to use in the trust inventory. Thus, it still seems to be the same.

But it's not...

Trust owners have priority because they can access enrolled weeks inventory at will. You can only access trust inventory after they make an exchange and are limited to that.

If they have a week you need but trust owners use only trust inventory for their reservations you're out of luck. If you have a week they need they can grab it anytime, even if enrolled weeks were to trade only among themselves (in the latter example, one enrolled week member may be forced to roll points over because a trust member took a redeemed legacy week).

Will Marriott make it more seamless than that? I would hope so... but that doesn't change the underlying system and that at some point this will catch up to and bite legacy owners somewhere...

 

[DanCali]

Thanks Mike!

I guess if we as weeks owners, convert to points and put our week in, then how do they figure out what to put in from the trust? If trust points were tied to a specific home resort, then I guess it would look like II does today, but since it is anything, do they just put in for what they have requests for? Can't figure out how that is going to work in my brain yet - I guess I am still thinking weeks and not points.

Yes, that is the point Tombo is screaming about. 6000 points can be a week in Hawaii or 6 Bronze weeks somewhere else.

According to the response MikeZ got:

Also, when a Vacation Club Points Owner reserves inventory from the Exchange Inventory, Trust inventory will be added to the Exchange Inventory in an "equal value."

- go figure what they mean by that...

 

[SueDonJ]

This appears to be emerging as the correct answer to the question of inventory pools.

It is absolutely lunacy to manage it this way.

The hardest thing to figure out is the algorithm for what gets transferred between the Trust pool and the Exchange pool. Is it done week for week? Point for point? Request first? Deposit first?

What happens when an enrolled member wants only 3 nights from a week at Marco island? Does only the 3 nights get moved to exchange inventory? Or, does a whole week get moved to exchange to fulfill the request?
Where does the other 4 days of inventory go? And, does it happen only after a Trust owner takes a week out?

This is the most ludicrously designed points system ever. Marriott forces an answer to how inventory pools can interact instead of putting all inventory in one pool and set rules for when it can be reserved.

This whole 2 inventory pool issue could have been easily solved by having 1 inventory pool and allowing Trust points to have something like a 30-day exclusive window into the inventory.

The way Marriott has designed this system is that it is creating a point system that takes away one of the greatest benefits of a point system which is the predictability of inventory.

Off in a little bit different direction ...

What if Marriott had introduced the Trust for Point sales as the new direction of their future timeshare business and the Enrollment option for Weeks owners to gain access to Trust inventory in some fashion as they have, but instead of introducing their own Exchange Company to handle the inventory they continued to use II as the exchange facilitator?

What would be different? Better? Worse? I'm not understanding all the angst here - somebody has to be the Program Manager for exchanges between the two ownership groups. Why are we expecting that Marriott's system will be any more cumbersome or difficult to navigate than II's would? Especially as they're supplementing their own Exchange Company with II's in order to open up the inventory availability.

Would any of us have preferred that Marriott simply take their timeshare business in the new direction of Trust/Points for new owners, and NOT given Weeks owners the opportunity to become involved somehow? I wouldn't. I think like Puck says that Weeks inventory is diminished by the introduction of the Trust for new business and wouldn't want it to be my only option going forward, especially as Marriott has a means if they choose to use it to gain ownership of existing Weeks and deposit them into the Trust.

Just more to think about ...

 

[hipslo]

So my assumption is that all those who have always said that it would be perfectly acceptable for marriott to discriminate against resale owners should be ok with this, since legacy owners are not purchasing points from marriott. Right? Shouldnt purchasers of points directly from marriott have advantages over those who haven't?

 

[LAX Mom]

Marriott has sold timeshares for 25+ years, many to individuals with a great deal of money invested with Marriott. These Marriott owners now have the option of enrolling in a new points program for a fee of $595 or $695 and will be treated as second class citizens with the new Marriott points program.

This is almost unbelievable!!!!

If I had paid Marriott $85,000 (or any amount) to purchase several timeshares I could be furious that I could only access the exchange inventory, not the trust inventory. What about new resorts (if and when Marriott ever builds anything), will legacy owners find it near impossible to exchange into new Marriott resorts?

Is this the Marriott way to force legacy owners to purchase some additional points?

I wonder if Marriott didn't realize that this information about 3 buckets of inventory would be available to the owners?

 

[SueDonJ]

So my assumption is that all those who have always said that it would be perfectly acceptable for marriott to discriminate against resale owners should be ok with this, since legacy owners are not purchasing points from marriott. Right? Shouldnt purchasers of points directly from marriott have advantages over those who haven't?

Just like with whatever advantages they've given to developer-direct buyers over external resale, and multi-week owners over single-week, and Platinum Elites over Gold over Silver in the MR program ... it is what it is. Marriott has always determined for itself its priority customer, this is no different.

Not saying that those who feel like red-headed stepchildren don't have a right to those feelings here, just that IMO it doesn't serve any good purpose to foster those feelings.

 

[auntdef]

I have a very simple question and I apologize in advance if this is not the place to ask it. I have tried to keep up with all the info posted and am more confused then ever

I own 2 EOY weeks at Waiohai and if I could not get a trade to another Marriott HI resort I would be very content staying at Waiohai for 2 weeks.

Will I have trouble booking my 2 weeks at my home resort of Waiohai if I don't join this new points system???

Our flexibility for 2012 & 2014 will be May thru August and December. 2016 and forward we will have total flexibility.

Many thanks in advance.
Stephanie

 

[SueDonJ]

Marriott has sold timeshares for 25+ years, many to individuals with a great deal of money invested with Marriott. These Marriott owners now have the option of enrolling in a new points program for a fee of $595 or $695 and will be treated as second class citizens with the new Marriott points program.

This is almost unbelievable!!!!

If I had paid Marriott $85,000 (or any amount) to purchase several timeshares I could be furious that I could only access the exchange inventory, not the trust inventory. What about new resorts (if and when Marriott ever builds anything), will legacy owners find it near impossible to exchange into new Marriott resorts?

Is this the Marriott way to force legacy owners to purchase some additional points?

I wonder if Marriott didn't realize that this information about 3 buckets of inventory would be available to the owners?

But it isn't true that, "I could only access the exchange inventory, not the trust inventory." As Trust Members exchange for Weeks intervals deposited to the Exchange Company and Marriott Rewards Points and other Destination Club options, the Trust inventory WILL be available to Exchange Members.

With II a Weeks owner does not have any access to any inventory that has not been deposited by another Weeks owner, right? II didn't have any immediate inventory available on the day it was implemented, either. And II has its own Priority system based on the values of what's deposited and what's requested. So what's different here?

We only need to have clarified what the priority system will be and how inventory is allocated, and that will happen as the DC Exchange Program comes on-line. Then we'll figure out how to work the system to our advantage the same way we had to learn II's.

 

[DanCali]

Off in a little bit different direction ...

What if Marriott had introduced the Trust for Point sales as the new direction of their future timeshare business and the Enrollment option for Weeks owners to gain access to Trust inventory in some fashion as they have, but instead of introducing their own Exchange Company to handle the inventory they continued to use II as the exchange facilitator?

What would be different? Better? Worse? I'm not understanding all the angst here...

Would any of us have preferred that Marriott simply take their timeshare business in the new direction of Trust/Points for new owners, and NOT given Weeks owners the opportunity to become involved somehow?

But this whole "enrolling" is a sham because your points are not like points you buy retail... they charge you an enrollment fee for nothing.

What exactly do you gain now by enrolling? Take an extreme example where Marriott priced retail points at $100/point and nothing sells... Do you gain anything by being enrolled in this scenario? In this case, you see none of the trust inventory and the only thing it allows you to do is downtrades with others who enrolled (and paid Marriott a hefty fee). Now suppose they actually do sell lots of points, but the Trust has sufficient inventory to satisfy them all and they don't need legacy inventory. You get the same result. The only way you get to see trust inventory is if your get to be the lackey for the trust and satisfy their overflow demand. That may take years and may never happen - but you do pay the initiation fee now.

 

[kedler]

From the My Vacation Club pages regarding Booking Vacations instructions for Enrolled Owners (there is a second link for VC Points Owners):

"When you elect to trade your Marriott Vacation Club week for Vacation Club Points, you will be able to reserve a vacation within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection 5, OR the World Traveler Collection 4; OR the Explorer Collection 3!"

When you click on #5 for Marriott Vacation Club Collection you get:

"The Marriott Vacation Club Collection is comprised of timeshare interests owned by the MVC Trust and available for usage through the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations timeshare plan and timeshare interests available for usage through the MVC Exchange Company; please see the applicable Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program documents for more information. Resorts with property that comprise the MVC Trust are described in the documents provided at the time of sale, and more particularly on the exhibit entitled Component Site Chart, which may be revised from time to time. Request for occupancy at resorts with small amounts of property in the MVC Trust, as set forth in the Component Site Chart, will be fulfilled primarily through the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program. As of 6/20/2010, there are currently timeshare interests located at 11 resorts owned by the MVC Trust and those resorts are designated with the symbol . As of 6/20/2010, there are currently 53 resorts, including the aforementioned 11 resorts, with timeshare interests available for exchange through the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, and those resorts are designated with the symbol . Please see the applicable Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program documents for more information. " [emphasis supplied]

CONCLUSION: Enrolled (weeks) Owners can trade points for any MVC property subject to availability.

Under both VC Points Owners & Enrolled Owners:

When you are ready to reserve your vacation, just call your Vacation Ownership Advisor Team at (888) MVCI VOA (888-682-4862).

* Vacations are available at 9 a.m. Eastern Time on the day the inventory is released, and may be confirmed on a first-come/first-served basis.
* If the vacation is available, you will be confirmed instantly, it’s that simple!
* If the vacation is not available, you may place your name on the Wait List. Click here to see the Wait List rules.

Regarding Availability:

"1 Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program's ability to confirm a specific exchange request is dependent upon the timeshare interests and use periods available or as provided by the provider of accommodations or services. Therefore, Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program cannot guarantee specific resort choices, dates of travel, or types or sizes of accommodations. The earlier an exchange is requested, the better the possibility that a specific request may be confirmed."

CONCLUSION: We have to elect to use points v. weeks to get reservations "pure" VC Points Owners don't they only have points. Once we elect to use points the reservation process is the same for both owners. As far as what will be available that is anyone's guess!

We have more "options" (sales speak) than they do (after all we are able to reserve a week at our home resort and don't have to use points to exchange for a week at another MVC resort), but they may have "first dibs" (kid speak) on the property in the MVC Trust.