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New Data Suggest the Coronavirus Isn’t as Deadly as We Thought

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Sea Six

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I personally would have zero concerns about going back to my previous life... work, gym, the whole deal.
Yup, until that day when you start gasping for breath because IT GOT YOU! Having ZERO concern is stupid. Having just been released from the hospital, I say PAY ATTENTION. Sure, the odds are slim, but it doesn't mean to let down all your guard, not just yet, not by a long shot.
 

Cornell

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Yup, until that day when you start gasping for breath because IT GOT YOU! Having ZERO concern is stupid. Having just been released from the hospital, I say PAY ATTENTION. Sure, the odds are slim, but it doesn't mean to let down all your guard, not just yet, not by a long shot.
No reason to shout. Given my age and that I have no co-morbidities, and all the data that I carefully follow, I feel pretty good about my situation in this. And I’m not letting down my guard. I’m not licking doorknobs.

However, My fears regarding my job, my future, my daughter’s future, my mental health are BIG concerns to me.
 

Monykalyn

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I saw that study, and others now coming online with the antibody testing. It is encouraging. To be fair I do think all the experts were saying the initial death rate would very likely be revised several times as more data is known-and they said that from the start. This is more data coming online. NO ONE said ever that NO ONE ever would die from it. We've got to get over the notion that there will be NO more deaths from it EVER again even with a vaccine. IF that ever happens it will be years/decades. Smallpox is the only thing I can think of that is eradicated. And yeah-more still needs to be done to see how long immunity lasts etc. What these studies should give hope for is that subsequent waves will hopefully be less duration and less deaths as well.
if it could easily prove fatal to them if that happens
Even the highest risk group is 15% at current numbers, the most vulnerable population is the population that will have the highest risk no matter the illness.
Tell this story/article to those family members that have loss loved ones to the coronavirus and to those cruise passengers that were on Princess & Holland America cruise ships. Plus, share this opinions will all the infected coronavirus patients around the world.
Strawman. Please stop. No one is saying those deaths aren't tragic.
is that many of the projections were based on doing nothing.
No actually most WERE based on some mitigation including social distancing and tracking and shut downs. It is why the Imperial college model came under such fire for it's way way way way overestimation. Upon which ALL this policy was first started. The IHME model continually moves its goal posts based on mitigation factors-but ONLY statewide, not counting what local is doing already.
A lot of people die every single day from a lot of reasons. Are the ones who died from Covid-19 any more or less dead than others who died from whatever? People are acting as if we get rid of Covid-19 there won't be any more deaths in the world.
And people are acting like we can't be "safe" until there are zero CV19 deaths anywhere in the world. This whole exercise was to slow and prevent as many as possible and keep our hospitals systems up and running and prepared (which is happening thankfully, and hopefully we DID prevent a whole bunch more deaths too), but not to get deaths to zero.
This virus hit fast and hard and that is scary. Preparing for the worst and not getting it is good news. Hospital systems were already strained from a bad flu season. Hopefully the peak is past.
 

MrockStar

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1. Personally, I don't think it's ever bad to collect more data and add it to your decision making. (Of course that also means giving due consideration to the nature and quality of the information, not all information is created equally.)

2. I think it's important to change one's mind or modify one's thinking in response to improved information. Just speaking, hypothetically of course, that might lead someone to say. "OMG - I might have underestimated the threat posed by a virus." And action is taken on the basis of the new information. And then as additional information comes in, that person might trim the other direction because the new data says that things might not be as bad as the prior data indicated. Or the added information might indicate the need to take extra action. Or the extra information might just make the situation more muddied.

3. One key item is to recognize that all of us, no matter how well trained we think we are or how smart we are, have confirmation biases. The best thing that we can do is to know what our biases are and attempt to counter those biases by being more critical of information and opinions that align with our biases, and less dismissive of information and opinions that we don't agree with. And when we clash, use that as an opportunity to hone our thinking by taking the effort to at least partly remove our bias filters.
Well said.
 

MrockStar

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Isn't it strange that we have such capable experts using every chart, graph, and statistic to back up their comments to educate us, but the networks choose not to even broadcast that part.

And then show on their news 'tease' nutty comments made in response to someones even nuttier question. What a world!
Choose wisely and live long and prosper.
 

T_R_Oglodyte

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Isn't it strange that we have such capable experts using every chart, graph, and statistic to back up their comments to educate us, but the networks choose not to even broadcast that part.

And then show on their news 'tease' nutty comments made in response to someones even nuttier question. What a world!
My "real life" story of dealing with television news. This was from about 40 years ago, when I was working in the drinking water supply program of the California Department of Health Services. I was the lead technical person in the program related to issues of contamination of groundwater with agricultural chemicals, and the Department public affairs office had identified me as a designated background information contact for news agencies. Which meant that while I wasn't authorized to speak for the department, I was designated to provide technical information and background to news agencies.

We had been working for several months on a major issue, and the Sacramento Bureau office for one major television network affiliates in San Francisco started tracking the story. I spent a significant amount of time over two to three weeks working with the person who was developing the story, as well as the Sacramento Bureau Chief who was providing oversight. I gave them information and background, answered questions, and asked followup questions to satisfy myself that they had a good grasp of the information that was provided, what it meant, and being sure that all of their questions had been addressed. I received much thanks from them, and they let me know they were going to run the story on their 5 pm Friday new show when it was ready to go.

So I made sure to turn in, and in one key part of the story they made a bald-faced lie. I knew it was a lie because we had covered that ground, they had all of the backup information, we talked about the issue, etc. There was simply no doubt as to the facts of the situation.

The following Monday I was back in Sacramento (my main office was in Berkeley), and I contacted the Bureau Chief to talk about the story. I told him that what they broadcast wasn't true, and that they knew it wasn't true.

His response - "yeah - it wasn't true. But the way we presented it made a better story." This is from the mouth of the Sacramento Bureau Chief for the San Francisco network affiliate of one of the "Big Three" national networks (pre-Fox). And the fact that they broadcast a story that they knew was factually incorrect was of no concern because the "story" was more important than the facts.

Since then I have been very cynical of anything that is produced by any media outlet of any persuasion. They all exist to sell eyeballs, and accuracy and objectivity is secondary to viewership or clicks.
 

CPNY

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I couldn't get in to read the whole article but it looks like it's an opinion piece. And how can someone says it's not as deadly as we thought? How many deaths have there been so far?
We don’t know the infection rate. One thing we can’t change is Covid deaths. That is known, but infection rates may never be truly known. There could have been tens of millions possibly 100M infected without tests. The death count doesn’t change but we haven’t captured the full amount of positive cases.
 

davidvel

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It may not be as deadly as some say, but it still kills. Are you ready to go out and play with it, thinking you won't get hurt?
Don't people do this every day getting into cars, swimming, drinking, smoking, not wearing full ID protection when over 60?
 

b2bailey

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I can't and won't argue whether Covid-19 is as severe as flu or not. But I do know it's deadly. This article is about a singing group up this way. At the time of this article, it was bad enough. But at least one additional person who was there has also died. And this is among people who had zero symptoms at the time of their rehearsal. So I guess my point is that it only takes once for it to kill you.


Dave
I have read this story a few times and the piece that stands out for me is, the speed at which the people became ill. Story mentions 3, 4 and 5 days later that people had developed symptoms. Day 1, choir practice, nobody was showing any symptoms.
 

Chrispee

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No reason to shout. Given my age and that I have no co-morbidities, and all the data that I carefully follow, I feel pretty good about my situation in this. And I’m not letting down my guard. I’m not licking doorknobs.

However, My fears regarding my job, my future, my daughter’s future, my mental health are BIG concerns to me.

Although I agree with you that the statistics are looking positive and it’s almost time to loosen restrictions, it needs to be remembered that most of us aren’t making these physical distancing sacrifices for ourselves. If this crisis hasn’t taught us lessons in protecting the more vulnerable and selflessness for the greater good of society then we have wasted an opportunity.
 

queenofthehive

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Although I agree with you that the statistics are looking positive and it’s almost time to loosen restrictions, it needs to be remembered that most of us aren’t making these physical distancing sacrifices for ourselves. If this crisis hasn’t taught us lessons in protecting the more vulnerable and selflessness for the greater good of society then we have wasted an opportunity.
It appears to be Darwinism at its best.
 

Gypsy65

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No reason to shout. Given my age and that I have no co-morbidities, and all the data that I carefully follow, I feel pretty good about my situation in this. And I’m not letting down my guard. I’m not licking doorknobs.

However, My fears regarding my job, my future, my daughter’s future, my mental health are BIG concerns to me.

No doorknobs??

You are missing out!!
The blue ones ( although hard to find ) are the best!!
 

R.J.C.

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Yup, until that day when you start gasping for breath because IT GOT YOU! Having ZERO concern is stupid. Having just been released from the hospital, I say PAY ATTENTION. Sure, the odds are slim, but it doesn't mean to let down all your guard, not just yet, not by a long shot.

BS. Just because you may be afraid doesn't make others who aren't afraid stupid. I too will have no worries about going back to doing things the way I used to once allowed. If it gets me, it gets me. Gotta go one day or another for whatever reason and I'm not going to live my life in fear of what may get me. You've got just a good a chance of a drunk driver taking you out as this virus.
 

Rolltydr

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How deadly is the coronavirus? I’ve listed what I believe are a few key points from the article below the link.


“One telling point of comparison: One scholarly estimate finds that the 1918-1920 pandemic killed 218 out of every 100,000 people living in the world at that time. The current outbreak has been nowhere near that deadly to date, but the virus has been spreading for only a few months. In Spain, the death toll already stands at 41 out of 100,000 people; in Belgium the number is 45. In New York state, it is 63, and that number rises even higher if you consider the “probable” death toll in New York City.
So is the coronavirus as deadly? “This depends on how long this continues,” said Jason Oke, a health statistician at the University of Oxford.”

“A safe and effective vaccine could be at least a year away. That leaves “mitigation,” such as social distancing, the only currently available tool for fighting the pandemic. A newly published paper in the journal Science argues that some mitigation will probably be necessary until 2022.”

“The virus officially named SARS-CoV-2 is not only contagious and deadly, it’s also wildly unpredictable. It can kill a person or leave no mark at all. Most clinical cases are mild to moderate and people can recover at home.
Patients often see symptoms come in waves, and sometimes a patient who seems on the road to recovery will take a drastic turn for the worse. There is concern about long-term effects even among those who recover. Covid-19 is categorized as a respiratory disease, but doctors have found that it can affect many organs, including the heart, liver and kidneys.”

“Also critical is the nature, and robustness, of the national health system. For instance, Japan, where the current case fatality rate is 1.6 percent, and Singapore are reporting extremely high rates of hospitalization for coronavirus patients, at 80 percent and higher, figures that are unheard of in the United States. But this probably helps improve treatment and also reduces disease spread by isolating patients. The result is fewer deaths.”
 

Ralph Sir Edward

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The problem I have with the antibody testing is a lack of double-blind testing of both known positive COVID-19 cases, and known other COVID (non 19) cases. Without that we really don't know how many "false positives" there are in the antibody testing. (Test shows COVID-19, but is actually spotting a much less virulent close "cousin" COVID virus.)

As to the lethality, here is a CDC chart of NYC "all causes" deaths for the last 20 years or so. It speaks for itself.

deaths-in-new-york-total-weekly.gif
 

Gypsy65

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I think there is some sort of money grab also with this
If you listen or read various reports on deaths there are many that say the person died from like or from corona symptoms
Not 100% from the virus but “ symptoms “
To me I read that as if I had a cough from a cold. Is that a corona symptom?

I’m betting it is if it blows up the hype or there’s a money grab

A person died recently that had been fighting cancer for 10 years and not doing well at all

Cause of death? Corona
 

Gypsy65

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And another thing

Many of the States complaining the loudest are the ones that are broke ass broke and need funding
Sure they are more densely populated but then I would also think that a place like NYC would have gotten this mess so widely spread long before shutdowns. Therefore wouldn’t the entire city be infected and dead?
 

Cornell

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@R.J.C. You feel exactly as I do. And just because I'm not scared doesn't mean that I'm not understanding or respecting what we have been asked in society to do. I'm following all of the "rules". But as soon as they say "go", I'm off an running back to living my life as I used to. I'm just not someone who lives my life with fear and anxiety as an undercurrent.
 

missyrcrews

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No reason to shout. Given my age and that I have no co-morbidities, and all the data that I carefully follow, I feel pretty good about my situation in this. And I’m not letting down my guard. I’m not licking doorknobs.


However, My fears regarding my job, my future, my daughter’s future, my mental health are BIG concerns to me.

YES YES YES.

[Fixed quote to separate reply]
 
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WinniWoman

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Bottom line is we many of us will get this virus no matter what. The end game- whether social distancing or using herd immunity- will be the same. The one and only reason we have been in lock down is not to overwhelm the hospitals.

Now that it has been shown that in many states the hospitals have not been overwhelmed and the numbers are low it is time for people to be free again. We cannot wait around for 2 years for a vaccine that MIGHT be developed. Remember they tried for a vaccine for the last SARS and never were able to develop one.
 
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WinniWoman

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@R.J.C. You feel exactly as I do. And just because I'm not scared doesn't mean that I'm not understanding or respecting what we have been asked in society to do. I'm following all of the "rules". But as soon as they say "go", I'm off an running back to living my life as I used to. I'm just not someone who lives my life with fear and anxiety as an undercurrent.


Same with me and I am older. I am not just going to sit around and survive. I am going to live life and if I die earlier so be it.
 

Rolltydr

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I saw that study, and others now coming online with the antibody testing. It is encouraging. To be fair I do think all the experts were saying the initial death rate would very likely be revised several times as more data is known-and they said that from the start. This is more data coming online. NO ONE said ever that NO ONE ever would die from it. We've got to get over the notion that there will be NO more deaths from it EVER again even with a vaccine. IF that ever happens it will be years/decades. Smallpox is the only thing I can think of that is eradicated. And yeah-more still needs to be done to see how long immunity lasts etc. What these studies should give hope for is that subsequent waves will hopefully be less duration and less deaths as well.
Even the highest risk group is 15% at current numbers, the most vulnerable population is the population that will have the highest risk no matter the illness.
Strawman. Please stop. No one is saying those deaths aren't tragic.
No actually most WERE based on some mitigation including social distancing and tracking and shut downs. It is why the Imperial college model came under such fire for it's way way way way overestimation. Upon which ALL this policy was first started. The IHME model continually moves its goal posts based on mitigation factors-but ONLY statewide, not counting what local is doing already.
And people are acting like we can't be "safe" until there are zero CV19 deaths anywhere in the world. This whole exercise was to slow and prevent as many as possible and keep our hospitals systems up and running and prepared (which is happening thankfully, and hopefully we DID prevent a whole bunch more deaths too), but not to get deaths to zero.
This virus hit fast and hard and that is scary. Preparing for the worst and not getting it is good news. Hospital systems were already strained from a bad flu season. Hopefully the peak is past.

I didn’t say most were based on doing nothing. I said many were based on doing nothing and that is an accurate statement.

Many - constituting or forming a large number; numerous

Most - the greatest quantity, amount, or degree; the utmost
 

geekette

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I think there is some sort of money grab also with this
If you listen or read various reports on deaths there are many that say the person died from like or from corona symptoms
Not 100% from the virus but “ symptoms “
To me I read that as if I had a cough from a cold. Is that a corona symptom?

I’m betting it is if it blows up the hype or there’s a money grab

A person died recently that had been fighting cancer for 10 years and not doing well at all

Cause of death? Corona
Money grab? How does cause of death create a money grab? From whom? What money? Why?
 

Gypsy65

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Money grab? How does cause of death create a money grab? From whom? What money? Why?

Watch and see
There’s always a money grab and stories already floating around that there will be one for this too

States will bitch how all the deaths devastated their financial situation and will expect the Government to pay up

I could be wrong. But highly doubt it
 

heathpack

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Well I read the full text of the PDF. Not the abstract, the full text.

Remember this is an unreviewed early release and the final version of this paper may differ from the version we’re seeing now, once the reviewers comments are taken into account. There’s even a possibility that the paper will be rejected for publication, if it’s thought to be seriously flawed. That’s how the review process works.

If I were asked to review this paper (I wouldn’t be, because I have no expertise in this field- but I am regularly asked to review papers in my area of expertise, so I’m familiar with the process), here’s the major issues that I’d have and that I’d want the authors to more fully address:

1. They state that they ran their test on 371 stored preCOVID blood samples, all of which should have tested negative. Only 369 were negative, meaning there were 4 false positives. That’s a 10.1% false positive rate. (Realize this is a newly developed test and performance characteristics are unknown prior to use in this study.). If you extrapolate that to their 3300 person sample, there could 330 false positive test results in their study sample. There were only 50 positive test results in their study population. The number of false positives should be accounted for by their calculated test specificity- however I question the statistics they used to calculate test specificity. They tested several groups with “known” COVID status, but most of those groups were small (~30 people) with no false positives. In the only large sample, we see the 10.1% false negative rate. I’d ask the authors to address and clarify this.

2. It’s unclear to me if the new test being used in this study is testing for IgG or IgM or both. I think it’s both, but this should be clearly stated by the authors. It matters because IgG and IgM antibodies typically are present at different phases of infection, with IgG typically present later than IgM. It would also be helpful for the authors to included in the discussion what is known about the kinetics of the immune responses of various immunoglobulin classes in COVID19 infection. For example, IgM positivity is seen 3-60 days post infection and IgG positivity starting around days 7-14. This information may be unknown but if it is, it would still be helpful to the readers understanding of the paper to include that information. FYI these things don’t matter to the fundamental hypothesis of the paper but it is useful information that the authors have of important public health implications and could be easily addressed in a few sentences so IMO including the info is better than not including it.

3. Sample bias. Did the authors inadvertently recruit cases more likely to test positive than the general population? The test subjects were recruited from FB and were not representative of the overall county demographics (more young white women, less Asians and Hispanics and elderly) and the authors attempted to correct for that statistically. However their corrections may not have corrected adequately. Keeping in mind that FB selects for circles of people with common interests, did information about this study’s availability get shared early and widely amongst a group that was more likely to test COVID positive- for example, groups of people who had been ill and couldn’t get tested otherwise? Or was the study info shared widely amongst ER nurses, hoping to learn if they were positive and didn’t need to worry as much if PPE was in short supply. Additionally, the study was set up such that each participant could bring one child, and around 800 children were enrolled. This means that of the 3300 people in the study, 1600 (800 children plus 800 parents) were from the same household. This is half the study sample. Since COVID19 is highly contagious, it would be expected that most positives would expose others in their household and if you test multiple people in a household, you would expect more positives than if you exclusively tested people from separate households if your sample was already biased towards including positives. The authors also asked test subjects about previous COVID symptoms, so it would be nice if they included info as to the number of positive samples in the subset of study participants who had previous COVID symptoms vs the subset who didn’t report previous COVID symptoms. Positive tests in the latter group are more relevant to the study’s conclusions (that there’s a high rate of inapparent infection) than positive tests in the former group.

Before people express exasperation that I’m not “being positive” or that I don’t want “good news,” neither of those things are revelvant to critically reading a scientific article. The question is whether the authors’ data supports their conclusions.

I’d be quite interested to see the final peer reviewed version of this paper. I think the authors chose a quick expedient way to recruit test subjects, which makes sense given the desire to get results out ASAP in the midst of a pandemic. But in doing so, they may have introduced significant bias to their study.
 
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