Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[davidvel]

I wouldn't make that assumption at all.
The new exchange system can easily be a combo reservation/exchange system - you do both at the same time. The rumor is not clear about this but that's how I would design a new system for Marriott owners who bought from Marriott.

Not legally (meaning without breaching their duties as manager) and causing the HOA to be in breach of contract, among other various torts.

Within each season (Platinum for example) there are some weeks that are far more desirable than others - who get's those weeks? Marriott has a tremendous advantage over us mortal owners - they can write their new program to take advantage of VIP status.

Not legally (meaning without breaching their duties as manager) and causing the HOA to be in breach of contract, among other various torts.

I don't assume for a second that Marriott is just going to introduce an exchange & reservation system but an entire spectrum of VIP benefits. One of those benefits could easily be the pre-placement of reservations for a highly desirable week.

Not legally (meaning without breaching their duties as manager) and causing the HOA to be in breach of contract, among other various torts.

The more points you deposit/buy the more VIP benefits you get. Let's say that Marriott offers pre-placement of high demand weeks 13 weeks out. You, as a Diamond level VIP member, get 14 months to pre-book your reservations - that means you can deposit your weeks 14 months in advance too. (No actual reservations take place 14 months out - just pre-placement of reservations which will be executed 30 days later)

Not legally.

Now 13 months out and at 8:00 am CST the new exchange & reservation system dumps 20,000 booking orders which are processed seconds before a mortal human can enter the first reservation - all inventory snatched up by Marriott. Nothing violated in any way here folks.

ABSOLUTELY inaccurate. As manager, Marriott has to treat each owner the same, and cannot auto-reserve, or otherwise create a caste-system among owners as you have suggested multiple times.

Anything that takes 3 years to program is going to be very complex and do a lot more than just handle reservation swaps between owners.

That's why its taking 3 years - a brand new set of software programs and sales programs are going to be implemented not just an exchange system.
. . .
P.S.
Once Marriott creates a caste system, the possibilities are limitless as to how they treat each caste.

Not legally (see above).

I know, I know, Perry, I am dreaming, but those dreams pay the mortgage each month.

 

[Latravel]

"I guess I don't understand your response to the above post. Are you saying that your documents DID say that your timeshare had no resale value and was essentially worthless? The posts in this thread that quote documents only quoted disclaimers warning the buyer to not expect investment potential or any particular resaleability. I did not see anything about a timeshare having no resale value and being essentially worthless."


No one here on tug or at Marriott every said our timeshare was worthless. That conclusion is a big jump from the language in our purchase documents which I have been repeating. What I have been saying is Marriott does not make you any promises regarding resale value. They do not feel any obligation to protect your resale value as others have been saying. This is explained when you purchase, not just when you attend a sales tour. Dean understood my post clearly.

 

[m61376]

Heidi- I guess the issue here is that even if Marriott makes buyers initial that they have no obligation to protect the resale value (which makes sense, because besides losing value as soon as you buy, the market is volatile), that is a far cry from actively taking steps which would decimate it.

 

[PerryM]

Slathering....

But Perry, I'm not making any assumptions, only saying that the "overlay" system which would not impact usage or fees at the resorts where I purchased, is the system I would prefer to see implemented. That's assuming a new one is to be implemented, which isn't definite. Yet.

True, Marriott's new exchange system should "sit on top" of the existing system of usage and not add to costs; I agree with that - kind of like icing on a cake.

But that icing defines the cake the moment it is slathered on. It can become an angel food cake or a devil's food cake - depends on who does the slathering.

So no matter how we believe the new system won't impact our usage it will redefine Marriott completely and our units...

 

[PerryM]

Not legally (meaning without breaching their duties as manager) and causing the HOA to be in breach of contract, among other various torts.

Not legally (meaning without breaching their duties as manager) and causing the HOA to be in breach of contract, among other various torts.

Not legally (meaning without breaching their duties as manager) and causing the HOA to be in breach of contract, among other various torts.

Not legally.

ABSOLUTELY inaccurate. As manager, Marriott has to treat each owner the same, and cannot auto-reserve, or otherwise create a caste-system among owners as you have suggested multiple times.

Not legally (see above).

I know, I know, Perry, I am dreaming, but those dreams pay the mortgage each month.

Marriott won't do anything against the law but they wrote all the documents we signed and they know just how far they can bend them to suit its needs.

I can cook up dozens of systems that don't violate any real estate laws or contract laws but completely change how Marriott timeshares operate. We will have to wait and see just how much Marriott wants to change its relationship with the owners and how much of a bully they want to become.

 

[CMF]

I suggest that everyone who has a concern about a potential new point system send a letter regarding their concerns to David Babich, Chief Customer officer.

I sent my e-mail yesterday. Has anyone else sent an e-mail to Marriott?

Charles

 

[SueDonJ]

True, Marriott's new exchange system should "sit on top" of the existing system of usage and not add to costs; I agree with that - kind of like icing on a cake.

But that icing defines the cake the moment it is slathered on. It can become an angel food cake or a devil's food cake - depends on who does the slathering.

So no matter how we believe the new system won't impact our usage it will redefine Marriott completely and our units...

Even the best pastry chef can't manage to turn a white angel food cake into a chocolate devil's food cake, no matter how prettily s/he ices it. HA.

(Thanks, Perry, now you've made me hungry for cake.)

Do you honestly believe that ANY new internal exchange system would completely redefine your MVCI product? Sure, the system that you're convinced will be offered would have that impact, but I'm not convinced that any one (your) particular new system would be implemented or that all of the exchange system options would contain your extremes.

 

[PerryM]

Even the best pastry chef can't manage to turn a white angel food cake into a chocolate devil's food cake, no matter how prettily s/he ices it. HA.

(Thanks, Perry, now you've made me hungry for cake.)

Do you honestly believe that ANY new internal exchange system would completely redefine your MVCI product? Sure, the system that you're convinced will be offered would have that impact, but I'm not convinced that any one (your) particular new system would be implemented or that all of the exchange system options would contain your extremes.

My answer is based upon how insane Marriott has become.

They could have introduced a great new Point oriented internal exchange system that would allow ALL Marriott owners to exchange reservations with a 21st century system.

But noooooooooooooo

Marriott has decided to pit owner against owner by installing a caste system. I have viewed the ugly head of the caste system here - the We Bought from Marriott crowd and the blood sucking pond scum resale owners like me. Just you wait until the salesreps spend 24/7 dragging the resellers through the mud.

I can imagine Marriott hurting from years and years of low to no profits and developing a Screw the Owners mentality to make up for those years of lost revenue.

But one thing is obvious to me - Marriott has changed the way it views its customers and not for the better.

 

[davidvel]

Marriott won't do anything against the law but they wrote all the documents we signed and they know just how far they can bend them to suit its needs.

That may be so, and I appreciate all your normative commentary, but I am just trying to correct the inaccurate positive statements so at least the opinions are based on a few facts.

I can cook up dozens of systems that don't violate any real estate laws or contract laws but completely change how Marriott timeshares operate. We will have to wait and see just how much Marriott wants to change its relationship with the owners and how much of a bully they want to become.

Again, I beg to difffer. The new system cannot "completely change how Marriott timeshares operate." In terms of your prior post, Marriott cannot do any of the following:

>>>Marriott has a tremendous advantage over us mortal owners - they can write their new program to take advantage of VIP status. . . One of those benefits could easily be the pre-placement of reservations for a highly desirable week.

>>>Let's say that Marriott offers pre-placement of high demand weeks 13 weeks out. You, as a Diamond level VIP member, get 14 months to pre-book your reservations - that means you can deposit your weeks 14 months in advance too.

>>>Now 13 months out and at 8:00 am CST the new exchange & reservation system dumps 20,000 booking orders which are processed seconds before a mortal human can enter the first reservation - all inventory snatched up by Marriott.

Marriott has decided to pit owner against owner by installing a caste system. I have viewed the ugly head of the caste system here - the We Bought from Marriott crowd and the blood sucking pond scum resale owners like me. Just you wait until the salesreps spend 24/7 dragging the resellers through the mud.

The caste system as you described it (priority reservation for your week) will not happen legally. As to offering a new program on terms different for direct vs. resale purchasers, I'll leave that to the anti-trust gurus to opine on its validity. But from a normative standpoint, I agree with you that it would be bad for ALL OWNERS.

 

[PerryM]

That may be so, and I appreciate all your normative commentary, but I am just trying to correct the inaccurate positive statements so at least the opinions are based on a few facts.

Again, I beg to difffer. The new system cannot "completely change how Marriott timeshares operate." In terms of your prior post, Marriott cannot do any of the following:

>>>Marriott has a tremendous advantage over us mortal owners - they can write their new program to take advantage of VIP status. . . One of those benefits could easily be the pre-placement of reservations for a highly desirable week.

>>>Let's say that Marriott offers pre-placement of high demand weeks 13 weeks out. You, as a Diamond level VIP member, get 14 months to pre-book your reservations - that means you can deposit your weeks 14 months in advance too.

>>>Now 13 months out and at 8:00 am CST the new exchange & reservation system dumps 20,000 booking orders which are processed seconds before a mortal human can enter the first reservation - all inventory snatched up by Marriott.


The caste system as you described it (priority reservation for your week) will not happen legally. As to offering a new program on terms different for direct vs. resale purchasers, I'll leave that to the anti-trust gurus to opine on its validity. But from a normative standpoint, I agree with you that it would be bad for ALL OWNERS.

Too many points to address so I'll pick one - Marriott already has a caste system in place - it is the Marriott sold and Resale sold castes.

Right now there is a big difference between the two ways of buying a Marriott week. That difference, however, has not spilled into enjoying your resort or other Marriott resorts.

Marriott has decided to change this - ALL owners at a Marriott resort will get screwed by the new caste system involving reservations. There will be LESS opportunities to exchange for BOTH castes with the new exchange system since they are segregated.

This is a fundamental assault on Marriott ownership - the natural consequence of starting more castes pitting one owner against another owner.

To me that is a HUGE assault on my enjoyment of being a Marriott owner.

I can see this bubbling under the surface right here in this thread. (We bought from Marriott and paid a lot more than resales so we should get more)

 

[SueDonJ]

... I have viewed the ugly head of the caste system here - the We Bought from Marriott crowd and the blood sucking pond scum resale owners like me.

Perspective is a fickle thing. From this side of the aisle, it sometimes appears here on TUG that, "Developer-purchasers have zero intelligence and no money sense and deserve whatever devaluation they stupidly paid for."

Of course no one has ever said those exact words, but neither has anyone said the exact words you've attributed to developer-purchasers. Can't we at least agree that extremism doesn't offer anything positive to any discussion?

But one thing is obvious to me - Marriott has changed the way it views its customers and not for the better.

It's not obvious to me. Not to say that it won't be true someday, but it's not yet. And I hope it never is.

 

[PerryM]

Perspective is a fickle thing. From this side of the aisle, it sometimes appears here on TUG that, "Developer-purchasers have zero intelligence and no money sense and deserve whatever devaluation they stupidly paid for."

Of course no one has ever said those exact words, but neither has anyone said the exact words you've attributed to developer-purchasers. Can't we at least agree that extremism doesn't offer anything positive to any discussion?



It's not obvious to me. Not to say that it won't be true someday, but it's not yet. And I hope it never is.

I have been a HUGE proponent of buying developer and I've taken a lot of fire-breathing heat for it. I did recommend buying direct from Marriott many times in past years. That has changed.

I no longer recommend anyone buy ANY timeshare now either from the developer or resale. The real estate market has yet to bottom out and start a healthy recovery - when that day happens buying timeshares with idle cash is perfectly ok.

Marriott is a another matter - they are obviously bent out of shape by resales - one Marriott owner finding someone to replace them and to take over the MFs in the resort. Marriott now views this something so hideous that it is cooking up an exchange system to battle it.

Marriott has lost its way and is spending way too much time worrying about their owners finding replacements for themselves. This is insane.

 

[SueDonJ]

.. I no longer recommend anyone buy ANY timeshare now either from the developer or resale. The real estate market has yet to bottom out and start a healthy recovery - when that day happens buying timeshares with idle cash is perfectly ok.

Now see, THERE we are in perfect agreement!

 

[davidvel]

Too many points to address so I'll pick one - Marriott already has a caste system in place - it is the Marriott sold and Resale sold castes.

The post you were responding to actually had only one point: "The caste system as you described it (priority reservation for your week) can not happen legally."

I was not addressing the question of the ability to exchange or join Marriott's new program. The issue is further confused when you state the following:

Marriott has decided to change this - ALL owners at a Marriott resort will get screwed by the new caste system involving reservations. There will be LESS opportunities to exchange for BOTH castes with the new exchange system since they are segregated.

There is no "new system involving reservations." You continue to refer to this but it's not part of what Dave M or anyone else has described (other than some mis-informed salespeople), and cannot be changed as I have illustrated above.

As I understand the new proposed system, it does not seek to alter the owner's fundamental rights to reserve, use and trade your purchased week.

I also don't see how the direct vs. resale situation is a "caste system" at all. Direct purchasers have a contract with Marriott (that resale buyers do not), which is separate and distinct from their rights as an owner of the deeded interest (which resale purchasers do have.) That contract (giving right to trade points) is not transferable or assignable (except possibly to family members). Resale purchasers obviously don't have that separate contract with Marriott, so don't have the rights thereunder.

Why would (or should) Marriott have any obligation to the resale purchaser as to the benefits in a contract that they don't have with them? If you buy a used car on the resale market can you demand that GM give you 1 year of free ONSTAR service, or a free oil change? Of course not. Resale buyers buy the deed and its attendant rights from the prior owner (NOT MARRIOTT). Any perks the original purchaser contracted with Marriott to receive are a separate deal.

Any new system will be subject to the terms of a new "contract" that has nothing to do with what rights any owner (DIRECT or RESALE) currently has.

 

[PerryM]

The post you were responding to actually had only one point: "The caste system as you described it (priority reservation for your week) can not happen legally."

I was not addressing the question of the ability to exchange or join Marriott's new program. The issue is further confused when you state the following:

There is no "new system involving reservations." You continue to refer to this but it's not part of what Dave M or anyone else has described (other than some mis-informed salespeople), and cannot be changed as I have illustrated above.

As I understand the new proposed system, it does not seek to alter the owner's fundamental rights to reserve, use and trade your purchased week.

I also don't see how the direct vs. resale situation is a "caste system" at all. Direct purchasers have a contract with Marriott (that resale buyers do not), which is separate and distinct from their rights as an owner of the deeded interest (which resale purchasers do have.) That contract (giving right to trade points) is not transferable or assignable (except possibly to family members). Resale purchasers obviously don't have that separate contract with Marriott, so don't have the rights thereunder.

Why would (or should) Marriott have any obligation to the resale purchaser as to the benefits in a contract that they don't have with them? If you buy a used car on the resale market can you demand that GM give you 1 year of free ONSTAR service, or a free oil change? Of course not. Resale buyers buy the deed and its attendant rights from the prior owner (NOT MARRIOTT). Any perks the original purchaser contracted with Marriott to receive are a separate deal.

Any new system will be subject to the terms of a new "contract" that has nothing to do with what rights any owner (DIRECT or RESALE) currently has.

Too many items to fully respond so let me recap what I said/believe:

Marriott will NOT violate any laws or contracts at all - they will simple do what lawyers do - take advantage of all the small print.

There is nothing wrong by taking pre-orders 14 months in advance in a brand new system of reservations and exchanges. 13 months to the second they dump thousands of requests into the OLD system and you can still talk to the operator and by the time you say Hello the inventory is gone. They probably will allow owners to use the internet at 13 months too. Good luck fighting that in court.

The existing caste system is pretty benign it has nothing to do with reservations. However the new caste will make a caste system where the Marriott bought caste is separate from the resale bought caste. These are now segregated systems that don't interact with each other; the very definition of a caste system.

It used to be that an "owner is an owner" that no longer is true at your own resort. There will be units that you CAN NOT exchange into - fellow owners at your own resort.

How long before the separate check-in line for "Marriott sold owners"? Or special services available to ONLY Marriott sold owners? Those concepts exist at many other timeshare developers.

 

[davidvel]

There is nothing wrong by taking pre-orders 14 months in advance in a brand new system of reservations and exchanges. 13 months to the second they dump thousands of requests into the OLD system and you can still talk to the operator and by the time you say Hello the inventory is gone. They probably will allow owners to use the internet at 13 months too. Good luck fighting that in court.

The HOA (whom you "contract" with for your usage rights) is obligated to treat all owners equally in terms of their rights under the deed and governing documents. Any disparate treatment (or ability to reserve) would be a clear violation of teh governing docs and the law (in CA at least, where my TS is.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I have done everything I can to set forth the legal reasons why they can't do this but you continue to believe they legally can.

I usually go in on more than luck, but thanks for the words of encouragement if they do this.

It used to be that an "owner is an owner" that no longer is true at your own resort. There will be units that you CAN NOT exchange into - fellow owners at your own resort.

How long before the separate check-in line for "Marriott sold owners"? Or special services available to ONLY Marriott sold owners? Those concepts exist at many other timeshare developers.

There currently are owners whose units you can't exchange into. If they are part of Red Week and you are not. If they deposit to II and you are not a member of II. Any ability to currently trade is merely happenstance. Whether people deposit their weeks with II, Redweek, or whomever is the reason you can or cannot trade back to your resort or anywhere else. Nothing to do with your rights. The same will be true under any new system.

Now one point I agree with you and others on is that if Marriott completely excludes resale buyers from their system or makes costs inequitable without good justification, there will be serious anti-trust issues to consider. We'll have to wait and see what they do!

As to the separate treatment of owners, I'll take it up with my HOA (see above.)

 

[PerryM]

The HOA (whom you "contract" with for your usage rights) is obligated to treat all owners equally in terms of their rights under the deed and governing documents. Any disparate treatment (or ability to reserve) would be a clear violation of teh governing docs and the law (in CA at least, where my TS is.)

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point. I have done everything I can to set forth the legal reasons why they can't do this but you continue to believe they legally can.

I usually go in on more than luck, but thanks for the words of encouragement if they do this.

There currently are owners whose units you can't exchange into. If they are part of Red Week and you are not. If they deposit to II and you are not a member of II. Any ability to currently trade is merely happenstance. Whether people deposit their weeks with II, Redweek, or whomever is the reason you can or cannot trade back to your resort or anywhere else. Nothing to do with your rights. The same will be true under any new system.

Now one point I agree with you and others on is that if Marriott completely excludes resale buyers from their system or makes costs inequitable without good justification, there will be serious anti-trust issues to consider. We'll have to wait and see what they do!

As to the separate treatment of owners, I'll take it up with my HOA (see above.)

True, but ANY Marriott owner can simply join RedWeek and use their exchange system.

This is a far cry from a caste system that bars you from exchanging your Marriott reservations and no matter how much groveling you do you can't be part of the ruling caste.

 

[davidvel]

True, but ANY Marriott owner can simply join RedWeek and use their exchange system.

This is a far cry from a caste system that bars you from exchanging your Marriott reservations and no matter how much groveling you do you can't be part of the ruling caste.

I am not aware of any such system, or any such proposed system with Marriott.

 

[Michigan Czar]

Perry, I have always enjoyed your posts up until now. I am starting to tune you out. You are now acting like the boy who cried Wolf! What facts do you have to back up anything you are saying about the reservation changes, trade requests at 14 months, etc.?

That is what I thought, none. You really need to take a deep breath and see how this plays out. The change will only impact trades and how can you be sure it is going to be so horrible for everyone but Marriott? Think about it, if they botch it up that bad it will impact developer sales at some point so why would they want to do that.

 

[PerryM]

Perry, I have always enjoyed your posts up until now. I am starting to tune you out. You are now acting like the boy who cried Wolf! What facts do you have to back up anything you are saying about the reservation changes, trade requests at 14 months, etc.?

That is what I thought, none. You really need to take a deep breath and see how this plays out. The change will only impact trades and how can you be sure it is going to be so horrible for everyone but Marriott? Think about it, if they botch it up that bad it will impact developer sales at some point so why would they want to do that.

Thanks for the concern.

I have nothing new to add just answer questions. I'd love Marriott to just stop the rumors and I can get back to my normal activities. But this is the least I can do to try to analyze what Marriott is trying to do to us.

 

[KathyPet]

Keep those cards and letters coming! Only 1300 more and we will have that Aruba thread beat by a country mile.

 

[hotcoffee]

No one here on tug or at Marriott every said our timeshare was worthless. That conclusion is a big jump from the language in our purchase documents which I have been repeating. What I have been saying is Marriott does not make you any promises regarding resale value. They do not feel any obligation to protect your resale value as others have been saying. This is explained when you purchase, not just when you attend a sales tour. Dean understood my post clearly.

How is that every time I decide to quit posting in this thread someone posts something that I have to respond to?

I cannot believe you are saying this. I'm sure I was not dreaming when I read language like "worthless" and "no value" in your previous posts. I understand the terrible depreciation timeshares go through as soon as they are purchased. So, Marriott's disclaimers make sense in that light.

But as far as resale prices are concerned, market forces currently do and should continue to dictate resale values. An off-season week at a seasonal resort is probably nearly worthless on the resale market, but a 2 BR OF at a MVC resort in Maui will probably command considerable value - that is, unless Marriott decides to exclude resale buyers from being able to join the new trading system (and this assumes that existing resale owners are grandfathered in some way).

 

[Latravel]

"I'm sure I was not dreaming when I read language like "worthless" and "no value" in your previous posts."

Wow. If I wrote that my timeshare is worthless (i'm 100% sure I didn't), that would absolutely be incorrect! My valuable timeshares are not worthless. My posts were stating there is language in our purchase documents where Marriott states they have no obligation to protect our resale value. They make no promises about resale value. It is a big leap to conclude that, therefore, our timeshares are worthless.

Could you direct me to my post where I wrote the words "my timeshare is worthless" since you keep attributing these comments to me?

 

[m61376]

Now one point I agree with you and others on is that if Marriott completely excludes resale buyers from their system or makes costs inequitable without good justification, there will be serious anti-trust issues to consider. We'll have to wait and see what they do!

As to the separate treatment of owners, I'll take it up with my HOA (see above.)

I just wanted to underscore the IF. While Perry's salespeople have evidently used the threat of resale owners being excluded from the prospective new system, at least in Aruba owners are being told that all owners will definitely be included. Obviously, no one has the true inside track on this, but I don't think we can /should condemn Marriott before the fact.

I do appreciate some legal insight as offered above. Maybe I'm a foolish optimist, but I have faith in Marriott as a company and I think they will do the right thing, even if it's for the wrong reason, at least insofar as current owners are concerned. The bottom line is they will want to protect their reputation and not create ill will, and they have nothing to gain by excluding any current owner; in contrast, including everyone will increase the participation and help the program get off the ground, and increase revenue.

The issue is what happens to future purchasers and resale values....

 

[Pit]

Wow. If I wrote that my timeshare is worthless (i'm 100% sure I didn't), that would absolutely be incorrect! My valuable timeshares are not worthless. My posts were stating there is language in our purchase documents where Marriott states they have no obligation to protect our resale value. They make no promises about resale value. It is a big leap to conclude that, therefore, our timeshares are worthless.

Could you direct me to my post where I wrote the words "my timeshare is worthless" since you keep attributing these comments to me?

Well, yeah, that's pretty much what you said. Here is the quote that baffled me (and apparently several others).

People who purchased from Marriott were informed by sales management to NOT expect any resale value. If I sell, I am aware I may not (and probably would not) get my money back.

It seems pretty clear from this post and others that you are not expecting any resale value, and that you couldn't care less about resale value.

That which doesn't have any resale value is worthless.