Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[Latravel]

Well, i'll wait until you show me where I wrote my timeshare is worthless, not where you mistakenly concluded this fact. It's a true stretch to make this conclusion. Did you also read where I expect to get something back when I sell?

I think you have to follow the entire thread to understand the post you quoted. I don't want to repeat again.

 

[Dean]

I guess I don't understand your response to the above post. Are you saying that your documents DID say that your timeshare had no resale value and was essentially worthless? The posts in this thread that quote documents only quoted disclaimers warning the buyer to not expect investment potential or any particular resaleability. I did not see anything about a timeshare having no resale value and being essentially worthless.

If Marriott treats resale buyers fairly (both current and future), market forces will determine how much Marriott timeshares are worth resale. And that is the way it should be. If the seller can only get $1 to get someone to take his unit off his hands, then $1 is how much his is worth, regardless of how much he paid for it retail.

To paraphrase, the documents (both checklists and legal documents) state that one is not buying it as an investment, that no representation of resale is included and for resorts in active sales, that there is NO resale option through Marriott. Same is true for rental value as well. Often these words are required by state law for many places, I know FL does for some of the situations. They do not SPECIFICALLY say no resale value per se, nor do they need to. Market forces will prevail based on all the factors, many of which might be different over time such as a new internal exchange system that MAY shift the balance.

I have stated that what Marriott is doing with their rumor is despicable but the aggressor in any contest sets the rules. Marriott has elected to use their new system as a way to control owners via their own reservations - a drastic departure from their benign resale approach with MRPs.

This new system will completely change the way owners use their Marriott weeks. I've shown that even Marriott bought owners will feel the impact of less inventory in the exchange system since many owners won't convert or can't convert.

I'm assuming Marriott has thought this out and decided a more antagonistic approach to their owner base is in their best interests.

As more and more rumors are released by Marriott this antagonistic outlook will become more evident - that's my guess. We can't change their minds but just warn others that Marriott has given us fair warning of their actions well in advance of release.

My advice to all is to not buy Marriott timeshares until the new system is released - there are way too many possible outcomes to take any kind of risk.

There you go again. First, this is a rumor, nothing more, at this point. We don't know that it's an orchestrated one by Marriott and definitely we do not know any purpose for it's existence though you are obviously convinced of both items. We don't know what Marriott has plans to do and we don't know what they will do, we only have rumors at this point. Further, we don't know what (or even if) a new system will be and we don't know, but can speculate, what the effects will be. That was part of my point, that you're posting your opinion, and you may very well be right, as fact and based on a rumor that you presume to be true, complete and that will come to pass.

 

[Pit]

Well, i'll wait until you show me where I wrote my timeshare is worthless, not where you mistakenly concluded this fact. It's a true stretch to make this conclusion. Did you also read where I expect to get something back when I sell?

I think you have to follow the entire thread to understand the post you quoted. I don't want to repeat again.

Not to worry; I've been following this thread from the start. Your timeshare is not worthless, despite what your Marriott salesman told you.

However, when Marriott introduces this internal exchange system, it will be worth less.

 

[Dean]

Well, if people who bought for those reasons were completely informed about their purchase, then I don't have a problem with them finding those reasons to be valid. I don't want my reasons questioned, why should I object to others?

DVC, I think, has more brand-loyalty purchasers than any other. Granted, DVC is a good product and the company protects its value better than any other timeshare company. But some DVC purists will pay more for the exact same product if it means that they're buying direct from Disney. (And that's true for the smallest items such as tee shirts that might be sold bootleg at a flea market, all the way up to their big-ticket SSR points.)

This is where it gets sticky. Lets say I post that to buy mainly for Marriott reward points is stupid as a general statement and you bought for points. Or I say that to buy from DVC simply for comfort or financing issues alone is stupid but you did just that. I have not questioned your actions, only an action in general that coincidentally happens to apply to your situation. There are reasons to buy retail but they are few and far between for those that are truly informed and may be things like fixed weeks, platinum plus, new resort early pre-construction, and the like. As I noted previously, I have made 3 retail purchases but they were for very special situations. Minimal Bluegreen to convert a boatload of points, smaller DVC contract (4*25) at AKV and Surfwatch pre-construction but also moved 2 resale purchases to retail status in the deal.

Not legally (meaning without breaching their duties as manager) and causing the HOA to be in breach of contract, among other various torts.

It would be legal as long as it were fair and divided up the units and weeks equitably between both the weeks and points groups.

I will point out that Marriott can essentially change the reservation system any way they wish. If you have an older resort that is floating, read your old documents as to the reservation system in place at the onset. The 12/13 month issue has only been around some 10-11 years or so.

 

[AceValenta]

There you go again. First, this is a rumor, nothing more, at this point. We don't know that it's an orchestrated one by Marriott and definitely we do not know any purpose for it's existence though you are obviously convinced of both items. We don't know what Marriott has plans to do and we don't know what they will do, we only have rumors at this point. Further, we don't know what (or even if) a new system will be and we don't know, but can speculate, what the effects will be. That was part of my point, that you're posting your opinion, and you may very well be right, as fact and based on a rumor that you presume to be true, complete and that will come to pass.

AMEN!!!

I have been following this thread from the beginning as well. This rumor has turned into an argument between developer / resale buyers. It has morphed into items seemingly being posted as fact.

Face it, it is a rumor...RUMOR! That is all....Nothing more and nothing less. Amazing how one acorn fell from the tree and now the sky is falling all around us.

 

[RandR]

The more we all "argue" with each other the more I think this is an episode of Twilight Zone. Marriott feeds people info knowing it will get to TUG, then they sit back and watch (or read in this case.) Someone before mentioned a focus group. I think this is a definite possibility. Marriott may very well be reading this thread and seeing how we react to different things. It's genius actually. Focus groups can be expensive and time consuming. This is a very cheap way to do it.

Think about it. They have direct buyers, resale buyers, old hands, newbies. They have people even making suggestions on how things could work giving them ideas they may not have thought of. And here we all are, disecting, evaluating and commenting on all of it.

I'm wondering, where do we send our bill for time served?

 

[PerryM]

Around and around it goes....

AMEN!!!

I have been following this thread from the beginning as well. This rumor has turned into an argument between developer / resale buyers. It has morphed into items seemingly being posted as fact.

Face it, it is a rumor...RUMOR! That is all....Nothing more and nothing less. Amazing how one acorn fell from the tree and now the sky is falling all around us.

Haven't you guys played the birthday party game where one kid whispers into the ear of the next kid and it goes around the table - what comes around has everyone's biases added into the whisper.

Marriott cooked up this rumor and is passing it around - I've bumped into it in the last 5 sales tours and its amazing how similar they are. If this were the normal type of rumor it would have morphed. My conclusion is that this rumor comes from Marriott HQ and it serves a purpose - to scare the daylights out of folks who seem to not want to buy that day.

We have every right to add our 2 cents to this rumor and pass it around the table - this is the game Marriott is playing.

But I'm done with this thread, I'm unsubscribing and will wait for another thread to pop up - this rumor has a life of its own.

Until then, don't buy a Marriott under any circumstances until the new exchange system is released and we can figure out just how much damage Marriott is impaling on us owners.

 

[hotcoffee]

The more we all "argue" with each other the more I think this is an episode of Twilight Zone. Marriott feeds people info knowing it will get to TUG, then they sit back and watch (or read in this case.) Someone before mentioned a focus group. I think this is a definite possibility. Marriott may very well be reading this thread and seeing how we react to different things. It's genius actually. Focus groups can be expensive and time consuming. This is a very cheap way to do it.

Think about it. They have direct buyers, resale buyers, old hands, newbies. They have people even making suggestions on how things could work giving them ideas they may not have thought of. And here we all are, disecting, evaluating and commenting on all of it.

I'm wondering, where do we send our bill for time served?

I hope you are right about this! Marriott should listen to its customers - especially those who are informed.

 

[hotcoffee]

"I'm sure I was not dreaming when I read language like "worthless" and "no value" in your previous posts."

Wow. If I wrote that my timeshare is worthless (i'm 100% sure I didn't), that would absolutely be incorrect! My valuable timeshares are not worthless. My posts were stating there is language in our purchase documents where Marriott states they have no obligation to protect our resale value. They make no promises about resale value. It is a big leap to conclude that, therefore, our timeshares are worthless.

Could you direct me to my post where I wrote the words "my timeshare is worthless" since you keep attributing these comments to me?

I'd rather not. I'm satisfied that we are apparently saying the same thing. Timeshares when sold have a market-driven value. It might be negative, or it might be significant, but it will never be what it was originally sold for.

My point from the beginning is that it would be sleazy of Marriott to deliberately do something to destroy an owner's ability to sell his unit when necessary to just to maybe pick up a few more direct sales.

 

[Dean]

I'd rather not. I'm satisfied that we are apparently saying the same thing. Timeshares when sold have a market-driven value. It might be negative, or it might be significant, but it will never be what it was originally sold for.

My point from the beginning is that it would be sleazy of Marriott to deliberately do something to destroy an owner's ability to sell his unit when necessary to just to maybe pick up a few more direct sales.

As I noted before, I'd agree that it would be sleazy if the intent were only to destroy value, however, if the intent is to generate sales and the effect is the same, so be it and I would disagree with the sleazy characterization. Timeshares are market driven (somewhat) but there is not a mature reasonable broad based market for them. It's like parking a vintage car on the side of a road where only a few people pass by, it's unlikely you'll be able to match up with a truly interested and knowledgeable buyer and those few that are, will be looking to get something for nothing because they know it's unlikely enough people will be involved to truly match the worth of the item. And in a down market, the prices will drop more dramatically than more broad based items in the market.

 

[jimf41]

There you go again. First, this is a rumor, nothing more, at this point. We don't know that it's an orchestrated one by Marriott and definitely we do not know any purpose for it's existence though you are obviously convinced of both items. We don't know what Marriott has plans to do and we don't know what they will do, we only have rumors at this point. Further, we don't know what (or even if) a new system will be and we don't know, but can speculate, what the effects will be. That was part of my point, that you're posting your opinion, and you may very well be right, as fact and based on a rumor that you presume to be true, complete and that will come to pass.

AMEN!!!

I have been following this thread from the beginning as well. This rumor has turned into an argument between developer / resale buyers. It has morphed into items seemingly being posted as fact.

Face it, it is a rumor...RUMOR! That is all....Nothing more and nothing less. Amazing how one acorn fell from the tree and now the sky is falling all around us.

Thank you Dean
Thank you Ace

 

[taffy19]

Exactly and they have done it once before...

This is where it gets sticky. Lets say I post that to buy mainly for Marriott reward points is stupid as a general statement and you bought for points. Or I say that to buy from DVC simply for comfort or financing issues alone is stupid but you did just that. I have not questioned your actions, only an action in general that coincidentally happens to apply to your situation. There are reasons to buy retail but they are few and far between for those that are truly informed and may be things like fixed weeks, platinum plus, new resort early pre-construction, and the like. As I noted previously, I have made 3 retail purchases but they were for very special situations. Minimal Bluegreen to convert a boatload of points, smaller DVC contract (4*25) at AKV and Surfwatch pre-construction but also moved 2 resale purchases to retail status in the deal.

It would be legal as long as it were fair and divided up the units and weeks equitably between both the weeks and points groups.

I will point out that Marriott can essentially change the reservation system any way they wish. If you have an older resort that is floating, read your old documents as to the reservation system in place at the onset. The 12/13 month issue has only been around some 10-11 years or so.

They did this with the resort where we owned (MDSV-I). We bought there before the 13 months' reservation window was introduced and 50% of our inventory was no longer available to single week owners just like that.

It made it very hard for us to book the few weeks that we could go to our own resort during March so we finally decided to get rid of it and traded up to a fixed week/unit in Maui so that can never happen again. It was only through TUG that I found out that we should have tried to call later again because some weeks were released by the multi week owners but, by that time, we didn't own there anymore.

I talked to the MVCI and II this week and asked them questions about the new Marriott internal exchange system again but only the higher ups seem to know what is going on. Right now, it is still safe to deposit a week with II and still qualify for trading up or a flexchange in 2010 so that is good to know.

I also heard that the point system in the Orient is not handled by the same department that handles our floating weeks or the fixed week/units in Maui or the platinum plus weeks anywhere else in the USA. The two resorts in the USA that belong to the Orient point system already are completely separate from our system here. They must have allocated them right from the start to this new system so they must have been planning this for quite awhile. There are some clauses in our new contract that may be there for a reason too that they may want to go to a point system as it allows us to go floating from a fixed week. Why else would they put that in there?

If Marriott wants the new internal exchange system to be successful, they are not going to punish present re-sale owners or new re-sale buyers as that would only hurt them to get the new system to be a total success and fast. I only hope that it will be on a voluntary basis only as some people do not exchange or very seldom. There are resorts where people go year after year and stay multiple weeks as it is considered their second home away from home without the headaches of taking care of it. This is how they sold the fixed week/units in Maui to some of the well to do people who could afford multiple weeks so they could stay there without having to move from unit to unit as they had all the weeks one after another in the same condo. I doubt if they would want to go to a floating point system and giving up the benefit of their fixed week/unit, if they own multiple weeks. JMHO.

PS. The MDSV-I is one of the oldest resorts in the system and doesn't even have the ROFR clause in the contract either!

 

[taffy19]

Did I kill the thread? I hope not. I was looking forward to read what else had been posted here today but I see nothing.

Marriott, if you monitor this thread, why don't you stop the rumors for once and for all and hurry up with introducing the new system so we don't have to worry about it so much.

You are stopping your own sales as several people have mentioned already that they are going to wait with buying direct or re-sale too until you introduce the new system so we know where we stand.

The people, who are buying from you today, will search the Internet most likely after buying a timeshare on impulse and they will end up here and you may get one cancellation after another. Is that what you want? Not very smart, imho.

With all the emails you send out constantly, is it so hard to send a notice to us that you are working on a new system but that it is on a voluntary basis and that nobody is going to be treated as second class owners. This is what many people worry about, if they bought re-sale.

Sooner or later, everybody has to sell so will they be severely restricted too? What type of system is that? Buying a timeshare is hardly worth it then if you lose all your money which wasn't the case before. You don't want to follow Wyndham by Cendant, I hope. The Marriott has always been better than that. Please, continue that way.

 

[davidvel]

The people, who are buying from you today, will search the Internet most likely after buying a timeshare on impulse and they will end up here and you may get one cancellation after another. Is that what you want? Not very smart, imho.

Whether they see this thread or not if they end up at TUGBBS they will get a barrage of Rescind anyway!!!!

 

[SueDonJ]

Whether they see this thread or not if they end up at TUGBBS they will get a barrage of Rescind anyway!!!!

Yes, and every other "Rescind NOW!" will be in a gigantic 36 pt. bold red font, just in case they're hard of hearing.

 

[hotcoffee]

As I noted before, I'd agree that it would be sleazy if the intent were only to destroy value, however, if the intent is to generate sales and the effect is the same, so be it and I would disagree with the sleazy characterization.

And I would say again that if they were to exclude resale owners (or future buyers) from the new program, the only possible intent would be to destroy resale value and thereby improve (in their view) direct sales.

 

[Dean]

And I would say again that if they were to exclude resale owners (or future buyers) from the new program, the only possible intent would be to destroy resale value and thereby improve (in their view) direct sales.

I would disagree but I suspected that would be your point. Actually I suspect there will be some that hold that any action that might take away from a resale purchase will cry foul no matter how slight the impact or perceived impact is. The intent in your example would be to encourage current and future buyers to buy retail by giving value to those retail owners that one cannot get resale. You have it listed backwards, it's encourage retail which MAY reduce resale value. As several have noted, there is a good chance that those who bought retail in the past will have little advantage over those that bought resale IF any of this comes to pass.

 

[davidvel]

I would disagree but I suspected that would be your point. Actually I suspect there will be some that hold that any action that might take away from a resale purchase will cry foul no matter how slight the impact or perceived impact is. The intent in your example would be to encourage current and future buyers to buy retail by giving value to those retail owners that one cannot get resale. You have it listed backwards, it's encourage retail which MAY reduce resale value. As several have noted, there is a good chance that those who bought retail in the past will have little advantage over those that bought resale IF any of this comes to pass.

Just when I thought this thread was fading away.....

 

[Dean]

Just when I thought this thread was fading away.....

I predict 3 more years of discussion on this topic.

 

[James1975NY]

Not a lot of facts to go on here so I am not sure why there is so much concern with the "proposed" program.

For many, I am sure that they will see added benefits and flexibilty that they can choose on their own if the program makes sense.

Also, I see assumptions that there will be fees involved to make reservations and that Marriott is trying to capture the exchange money that II typically gets. I am sure there will be a yearly membership fee to participate as many clubs require but a reservation fee does not make sense to me. Further, a membership fee to II is being paid as well as the exchange fee anyway.

I need to have more facts which I am sure will unfold in the near future.

 

[icydog]

Yes I believe this will come to fruitition.

I believe it is going to happen, but how it will impact anyone, retail or resale, has not been resolved yet IMHO. I think, again my beliefs, that Marriott will put this into action for all of its current owners and that it will be totally voluntary for all. I just wish Marriott didn't nickel and dime us to death, a fee here and a fee there certainly adds up. Now to add one more fee to go from one resort to the next seems like another Marriott money maker. Maybe it would be better if II gave Marriott a piece of their action. Maybe then Marriott would be happy.

 

[NboroGirl]

Message from Marriott

Today I received a letter from the Marriott salesman that I dealt with when I bought my first Marriott timeshare at Grande Vista. He is now working at Grand Chateau in Vegas.

The letter reminded owners to reserve, exchange, or trade-for-points their 2009 timeshares if they haven't already done so, before the end of the year. Then there was this paragraph at the end:

Next year we will unveil a major improvement in the Marriott Vacation Club program that is extremely exciting…It will add flexibility and value to our program….I will keep you posted….

Hmmm.... kind of cryptic. (?)

 

[icydog]

Today I received a letter from the Marriott salesman that I dealt with when I bought my first Marriott timeshare at Grande Vista. He is now working at Grand Chateau in Vegas.

The letter reminded owners to reserve, exchange, or trade-for-points their 2009 timeshares if they haven't already done so, before the end of the year. Then there was this paragraph at the end:

Next year we will unveil a major improvement in the Marriott Vacation Club program that is extremely exciting…It will add flexibility and value to our program….I will keep you posted….

Hmmm.... kind of cryptic. (?)

I heard the same thing. It's coming, but the details are unknown.

 

[billymach4]

Rubbish

All of these comments from the so called mail from the Sales Force are not endorsed by the Marriott Corporate office.

These same Sales people troll around here on Tug and read the same silly rumor that is being proliferated in this thread.

In other words this thread is feeding the sales force in to purpetuating this rumor. Don't believe a word any Salesman says or writes. Remember they have only one goal in mind. To separate you from your money!

 

[AceValenta]

:

Next year we will unveil a major improvement in the Marriott Vacation Club program that is extremely exciting…It will add flexibility and value to our program….I will keep you posted….

Hmmm.... kind of cryptic. (?)

What resorts are opening next year?