Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[Clark]

The only ones who know the way the point system will work is upper management.

That, my fellow Tuggers, is the last thing you wanted to hear.

Now, when you finally see how it works, remember, you heard it here first: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by simple incompetence"

I'm just sayin' ---

 

[RandR]

That may be but in the last 5 Marriott sales presentations ALL 5 reps said that resale owners would be screwed. I don't think they know if existing resale owners would be screwed but definitely resale owners after the release would be screwed.

That's a 100% average on the topic of resale owners getting screwed.

So details are being released to the salesreps who then use them as weapons to frighten folks who dare think buying a Marriott from a Marriott owner.

Has anyone ever been told that new resale owners will benefit from the new exchange system? I've not heard that from anyone.

Not to defend them, but you don't know that the salespeople have been told anything. They have heard rumors and hearsay as well. They are just using it to their advantage. If it turns out that resales don't get treated differently they will just say things changed since they told you that.

 

[icydog]

I have heard all kinds of things on sales tours about buying resale.. i was told if I bought resale I couldn't exchange the week, that if I bought resale I would be given the bottom of the barrel for reservations, that if I bought resale I couldn't be sure the deed was valid, if I bought resale I couldn't trade my week in for points, whoops that one is true!!:ignore:But you get the idea. If this is being thrown out there salesmen will run with it. Who's to say it isn't true since nobody is saying what the truth is. So they can, with impunity, claim that resold weeks outside of Marriott's auspices will not enjoy the same benefits in the new point system as those weeks purchased directly from Marriott.

I was in sales/marketing for years and an untruth is not an untruth if you are not sure of the source. Salespeople will use any and all ammunition to get the sale. In this case, if they tell their prospects that they will be shunned from the new point system if they buy resale- that is what they will say to make the deal. It is not untrue yet, so they are not lying. Again, impunity works here. They probably believe what they are saying. That doesn't make it so.

 

[hotcoffee]

That may be but in the last 5 Marriott sales presentations ALL 5 reps said that resale owners would be screwed. I don't think they know if existing resale owners would be screwed but definitely resale owners after the release would be screwed.

Have it ever been hinted to you that Marriott intended to get more involved in resales? At the sales presentation last year (I refused to go this year), the salesman made a remark similar to that. I have not seen any comments here about anyone else having heard a salesman state that. Am I the only person who was told anything like that?

To me, that would be a viable option because I would assume that if anyone were to buy a resale through Marriott, he would gain normal access to the new point trading system even if current resale owners are not (or given expensive access). That would preserve value in one's timeshare. Of course, independent brokers would likely cry foul.

As long as I can reserve, exchange, and sell when needed, I don't care much about how the new system will work. I might even join it if the cost is reasonable, and if I am not excluded.

 

[Dean]

I play the game according to the rules - do it in many parts of my life.

There are always outside forces that want to change the rules and not play the game. Sore losers.

The existing II exchange system has worked just fine for 15+ years now - why change it? We already have a 24 day exclusive Marriott owner to owner ability now.

I'm not sure the system as is works nearly as well as you think. It does for the well informed because we learn how to use and abuse it but not nearly as much for the average owner. Certainly a points system bypasses many of the current issues though it does create other issues and problems. The question is what is the balance. IMO, a points system for Marriott is inevitable however questions remain how to get from here to there. And the answer varies as to what is the purpose of the question, is it the most profit or the best, smoothest transition, a balance, etc.

 

[RandR]

Have it ever been hinted to you that Marriott intended to get more involved in resales? At the sales presentation last year (I refused to go this year), the salesman made a remark similar to that. I have not seen any comments here about anyone else having heard a salesman state that. Am I the only person who was told anything like that?

To me, that would be a viable option because I would assume that if anyone were to buy a resale through Marriott, he would gain normal access to the new point trading system even if current resale owners are not (or given expensive access). That would preserve value in one's timeshare. Of course, independent brokers would likely cry foul.

As long as I can reserve, exchange, and sell when needed, I don't care much about how the new system will work. I might even join it if the cost is reasonable, and if I am not excluded.

Marriott being in the resale business doesn't necessarily help you. They will help you sell your unit now but the wait can be 2+ years.

 

[Dean]

The proof will be one month after Marriott releases their caste system - we will know 100% if that caste system helped or hurt the resale owner - which is eventually all of us.

Marriott believes it will hurt resales - that's why Marriott is pushing the rumor at the first sign of resales in the sales pitch - the new system will hurt resales is what they preach.

I take Marriott at their word.

Obviously any system wants to push sales toward retail and away from resale. However, any system that is too one sided also has the potential to hurt resale and if it does, it may backlash on retail as well. I don't think 1 month after any change will answer the question, people are too reactive to make that statement as a long term expectation.

With any change there are winners and losers. It very well may be that any change that does come hurts you and helps me or vice versa. No way to make it "fair" for everyone with every change.

 

[verby]

maybe MVC will take the point system from SVN. It looks pretty straight forward and I hope it works well...

 

[PerryM]

Sweet

Not to defend them, but you don't know that the salespeople have been told anything. They have heard rumors and hearsay as well. They are just using it to their advantage. If it turns out that resales don't get treated differently they will just say things changed since they told you that.

This is Marriott's rumor that is blessed by various levels of Marriott management.

The rumor is very uniform in the past 2-3 years and from the 5 salesreps - the new internal exchange Marriott only system will bar resale owners.

Marriott if this is not what you meant when spreading the rumor please correct it here.

The net result will be a decline in resale prices since folks who want to exchange to other Marriotts will have to be part of the new exchange program. That means less demand on the resale market and falling prices.

Marriott will probably then exercise the ROFR to snap up the resale weeks that nobody wants.

To me this is ideal for Marriott and if I were in management I'd want this rumor out for years to scare the hell out of the resale market. Throw in a real estate bubble bursting and Marriott might be able to recycle units for 30 - 40 cents on the dollar. Sweet.

I believe the Marriott rumors myself at this point. Resales will not be allowed into the new exchange system and there will be no need to grandfather anyone in.

 

[Dean]

This is Marriott's rumor that is blessed by various levels of Marriott management.

The rumor is very uniform in the past 2-3 years and from the 5 salesreps - the new internal exchange Marriott only system will bar resale owners.

Marriott if this is not what you meant when spreading the rumor please correct it here.

The net result will be a decline in resale prices since folks who want to exchange to other Marriotts will have to be part of the new exchange program. That means less demand on the resale market and falling prices.

Marriott will probably then exercise the ROFR to snap up the resale weeks that nobody wants.

To me this is ideal for Marriott and if I were in management I'd want this rumor out for years to scare the hell out of the resale market. Throw in a real estate bubble bursting and Marriott might be able to recycle units for 30 - 40 cents on the dollar. Sweet.

I believe the Marriott rumors myself at this point. Resales will not be allowed into the new exchange system and there will be no need to grandfather anyone in.

Perry, we've seen consistently incorrect info coming from sales staff for years. Things like you can't access the II Marriott desk or get the internal trading preference and the like. That several sales staff told similar stories doesn't mean much to me and from what I've seen, they have not all been the same though similar. One would expect sales staff that discussed these options would spin them in the most negative light for resales. That doesn't make them knowledgeable about specifics nor accurate, just spouting off in my book. And while it may indeed mean that prices will go down with any change, that is not fact, though you keep stating it like it is. It is speculation that may or may not be true and will depend on specifics of what happens, or doesn't happen. I know some have said they won't buy no matter what until this is sorted out, I've taken the opportunity to add some very nice options at much cheaper prices. Given 2 of them are things I'd likely never trade (6 of my 8 weeks fall in the same thinking), I doubt it'll make much difference to me one way or another other than if prices fall lower, I might add another week or 2 similar to what I just bought.

 

[dougp26364]

This is Marriott's rumor that is blessed by various levels of Marriott management.

The rumor is very uniform in the past 2-3 years and from the 5 salesreps - the new internal exchange Marriott only system will bar resale owners.

Marriott if this is not what you meant when spreading the rumor please correct it here.

The net result will be a decline in resale prices since folks who want to exchange to other Marriotts will have to be part of the new exchange program. That means less demand on the resale market and falling prices.

Marriott will probably then exercise the ROFR to snap up the resale weeks that nobody wants.

To me this is ideal for Marriott and if I were in management I'd want this rumor out for years to scare the hell out of the resale market. Throw in a real estate bubble bursting and Marriott might be able to recycle units for 30 - 40 cents on the dollar. Sweet.

I believe the Marriott rumors myself at this point. Resales will not be allowed into the new exchange system and there will be no need to grandfather anyone in.

Perry,

I would ask that consideration be given to the fact that it is, IMHO, a minority of owners that actually pay attention and think about what's going on around them. Most that I run into are not as savy as the typical TUG member (aka: are often clueless). Most don't have a clue that the resale market exists or that the resale market has prices considerably lower than developer pricing. Thus the existance of all these upfront fee companies.

I submit that it's not the rumor killing reslae pricing so much as the ecomony and Marriott no longer exercising ROFR. The economy is likely putting more units on the market, depressing resale pricing (supply and demand). Couple that with Marriott no longer being able to afford (or choosing to afford) exercising ROFR and you have the receipt for lower resale prices.

Granted the rumor BS they're spreading can't be helping the case for the resale market value but, I believe that very few owners ever pay attention to those rumore and, those that do are not in large enough numbers so as to have a significant impact.

Essentially, I still feel that this is a great deal of speculation, worry and hand wringing over nothing. We're chasing ghosts here and nothing substantial yet. Until Marriot DOES something, nothing has changed.

 

[Twinkstarr]

I would ask that consideration be given to the fact that it is, IMHO, a minority of owners that actually pay attention and think about what's going on around them. Most that I run into are not as savy as the typical TUG member (aka: are often clueless). Most don't have a clue that the resale market exists or that the resale market has prices considerably lower than developer pricing. Thus the existance of all these upfront fee companies.
.

I agree 100% with you on the above statement. I've met a local Marriott owner who had no clue that II was on line and you could "do it yourself". She thought you always had to call in.

Or while working out at the Y in March, a couple of Westin Kierland Villa owners who were planning on calling in "sometime" this year to book their 2 weeks for Spring Training 2010. I said they should perhaps consider calling in sooner to get the exact weeks they wanted. No they wait and can't get B2B and were thinking about selling.

 

[PerryM]

Perry,

I would ask that consideration be given to the fact that it is, IMHO, a minority of owners that actually pay attention and think about what's going on around them. Most that I run into are not as savy as the typical TUG member (aka: are often clueless). Most don't have a clue that the resale market exists or that the resale market has prices considerably lower than developer pricing. Thus the existance of all these upfront fee companies.

I submit that it's not the rumor killing reslae pricing so much as the ecomony and Marriott no longer exercising ROFR. The economy is likely putting more units on the market, depressing resale pricing (supply and demand). Couple that with Marriott no longer being able to afford (or choosing to afford) exercising ROFR and you have the receipt for lower resale prices.

Granted the rumor BS they're spreading can't be helping the case for the resale market value but, I believe that very few owners ever pay attention to those rumore and, those that do are not in large enough numbers so as to have a significant impact.

Essentially, I still feel that this is a great deal of speculation, worry and hand wringing over nothing. We're chasing ghosts here and nothing substantial yet. Until Marriot DOES something, nothing has changed.

I wish it were true, that nothing has changed.

By Marriott using this rumor thousands of times over the past 2-3 years they are impacting resales - folks who might want to take advantage of low resale prices now are being scared out of doing so by a Marriott sponsored rumor. Assume that amounts to thousands of folks in the demand spectrum of Marriott resales - fewer buyers means lower prices.

It's one thing for the salesreps to lie and bend the truth to make a sale but its a completely different thing for a Fortune 500 company to blatantly create a rumor to depress resale prices of their own owners.

This is outrageous and my point - Marriott is harming every owner with this 3 year old rumor they spread thousands of times a day for almost 1,000 days now.

This is no small matter in my mind.

The definition of a lie is very simple - The truth is simply what actually happened - a lie is recounting something that did not happen.

Marriott, as a corporation, is spreading a lie - the internal exchange system doesn't exist. If we don't try to hold them accountable for their lie who will?

My advice at this point is to NOT buy Marriott either direct from Marriott or resale. The lie Marriott is spreading has introduced so much doubt into Marriott ownership that folks should wait until the system is released - no matter how many years that takes.

 

[KathyPet]

Perry, I do agree with your wait and see posture. If I was in the market for a Marriott now and I was aware that this program was coming along I would not buy either direct or resale but would want to wait until the details of the new program were released.

 

[PerryM]

Mission accomplished (Not the sign on that aircraft carrier)

Perry, I do agree with your wait and see posture. If I was in the market for a Marriott now and I was aware that this program was coming along I would not buy either direct or resale but would want to wait until the details of the new program were released.

My goal of pointing out Marriott's blatant lie has been achieved.

If you type in "Marriott internal exchange" (without the quotes) into Google you will be brought to this thread and my objections.

I hope this blows up in Marriott's face.

Marriott what you have done is despicable - stop the rumor! Stop the lies!

 

[dougp26364]

I wish it were true, that nothing has changed.

By Marriott using this rumor thousands of times over the past 2-3 years they are impacting resales - folks who might want to take advantage of low resale prices now are being scared out of doing so by a Marriott sponsored rumor. Assume that amounts to thousands of folks in the demand spectrum of Marriott resales - fewer buyers means lower prices.

It's one thing for the salesreps to lie and bend the truth to make a sale but its a completely different thing for a Fortune 500 company to blatantly create a rumor to depress resale prices of their own owners.

This is outrageous and my point - Marriott is harming every owner with this 3 year old rumor they spread thousands of times a day for almost 1,000 days now.

This is no small matter in my mind.

The definition of a lie is very simple - The truth is simply what actually happened - a lie is recounting something that did not happen.

Marriott, as a corporation, is spreading a lie - the internal exchange system doesn't exist. If we don't try to hold them accountable for their lie who will?

My advice at this point is to NOT buy Marriott either direct from Marriott or resale. The lie Marriott is spreading has introduced so much doubt into Marriott ownership that folks should wait until the system is released - no matter how many years that takes.

While I'll agree that it's true enough in my case that this rumor is enough to make me not want to buy another Marriott week until this is settled, for anyone other than those of us in the know about resale, I'm not 100% convinced this rumor is having much impact.

There at two things Marriott can not take away from a resale buyer. 1) The right to use the week they own in the season they own and 2) the right to exchange the week they own through an independant exchange company. In that respect, despite any rumor of internal exchange program, nothing can change. By forcing resale prices to all time lows they could be encouraging resale purchases rather than discouraging them. It's a risky business to be guessing exactly WHY someone is buying.

True if they're buying for the Marriott system it would discourage resales but, it they're buying to use their home resort week or, if they're buying to be able to exchange through I.I. and don't care whether they're exchanging into Marriott resorts, then the extremely low resale prices we're seeing now would be encouraging prospects to walk away from the table and buy resale. This is a double edged sword their playing with without knowing which side is doing the cutting each time a client sits across from a salesman.

The one thing we both agree on is this rumor is an idiotic ploy for Marriott salesmen to be using. It's doubtful it will actually encourage a great percentage of people to buy from the developer and there is a risk it could drive people away because of an uncertain future. The rest is mearly semantics.

As far as Marriott harming me (or all owners), I see no harm. I bought to use and to retain. I have no intention of selling now or anytime in the near future. For me there is no loss in resale value much like there is no loss when selling stocks UNLESS you actually sell when the market is low. If the internal exchange system wasn't an important aspect of owning Marriott, it might actually benefit me as I could be buying resale units at what I believe are historically low prices. But, the internal exchange portion is important to me and, the uncertain future would push me away from any purchase, developer or resale, until this matter is settled.

 

[PerryM]

While I'll agree that it's true enough in my case that this rumor is enough to make me not want to buy another Marriott week until this is settled, for anyone other than those of us in the know about resale, I'm not 100% convinced this rumor is having much impact.

There at two things Marriott can not take away from a resale buyer. 1) The right to use the week they own in the season they own and 2) the right to exchange the week they own through an independant exchange company. In that respect, despite any rumor of internal exchange program, nothing can change. By forcing resale prices to all time lows they could be encouraging resale purchases rather than discouraging them. It's a risky business to be guessing exactly WHY someone is buying.

True if they're buying for the Marriott system it would discourage resales but, it they're buying to use their home resort week or, if they're buying to be able to exchange through I.I. and don't care whether they're exchanging into Marriott resorts, then the extremely low resale prices we're seeing now would be encouraging prospects to walk away from the table and buy resale. This is a double edged sword their playing with without knowing which side is doing the cutting each time a client sits across from a salesman.

The one thing we both agree on is this rumor is an idiotic ploy for Marriott salesmen to be using. It's doubtful it will actually encourage a great percentage of people to buy from the developer and there is a risk it could drive people away because of an uncertain future. The rest is mearly semantics.

As far as Marriott harming me (or all owners), I see no harm. I bought to use and to retain. I have no intention of selling now or anytime in the near future. For me there is no loss in resale value much like there is no loss when selling stocks UNLESS you actually sell when the market is low. If the internal exchange system wasn't an important aspect of owning Marriott, it might actually benefit me as I could be buying resale units at what I believe are historically low prices. But, the internal exchange portion is important to me and, the uncertain future would push me away from any purchase, developer or resale, until this matter is settled.

Timeshare salesreps tell enough lies, distortions, and just wrong information that we should have a 100% No Lie policy towards ALL timeshare developers.

What Marriott is doing is despicable - they are scaring thousands of folks with a rumor and tarnishing the very timeshare resorts we own.

Maybe we can't track back a verifiable example of how Marriott's rumor has lowered a resale trade but I sure don't see how it helps Marriott resales.

We are it - we either ignore 1,000 days of lies or we point it out for all that take the time to research "Marriott Internal Exchange" and want to know what the hell Marriott is up to.

 

[dougp26364]

Timeshare salesreps tell enough lies, distortions, and just wrong information that we should have a 100% No Lie policy towards ALL timeshare developers.

What Marriott is doing is despicable - they are scaring thousands of folks with a rumor and tarnishing the very timeshare resorts we own.

Maybe we can't track back a verifiable example of how Marriott's rumor has lowered a resale trade but I sure don't see how it helps Marriott resales.

We are it - we either ignore 1,000 days of lies or we point it out for all that take the time to research "Marriott Internal Exchange" and want to know what the hell Marriott is up to.

I agree it needs to stop.

One other adverse affects this has had, at least with me, is that I have ceased all referals to Marriott. In the past, I've refered family, friends and co-workers to Marriott. With the direction the sales presentations are going and, with the uncertainty over the future direction of this rumored internal exchange program, I've stopped all referals.

 

[Bill4728]

maybe MVC will take the point system from SVN. It looks pretty straight forward and I hope it works well...

I pointed out earlier in this thread that all the other hotel branded TS systems have a point system.
I also said that SVN (Starwood vacation) has the system which I would least like to see Marriott follow.

 

[LAX Mom]

Why would anyone buy a timeshare from Marriott if they are told there is little opportunity to sell it on the resale market?

If Marriott markets this new plan and uses it as a way to promote developer sales, it will make it difficult to sell anything resale. So Marriott has a new internal trading system, but you can't use it if you don't purchase from Marriott?

What happens if I buy from Marriott and then at a later date this timeshare doesn't meet my needs? No one will want it because a resale unit can't utilize the Marriott internal trading system.

Marriott can't be this dumb! Why would anyone ever buy a timeshare from them once this new program is introduced? It makes no sense to me, everyone (or their heirs) needs to sell their timeshare units at some point in the future.

 

[PerryM]

Why would anyone buy a timeshare from Marriott if they are told there is little opportunity to sell it on the resale market?

If Marriott markets this new plan and uses it as a way to promote developer sales, it will make it difficult to sell anything resale. So Marriott has a new internal trading system, but you can't use it if you don't purchase from Marriott?

What happens if I buy from Marriott and then at a later date this timeshare doesn't meet my needs? No one will want it because a resale unit can't utilize the Marriott internal trading system.

Marriott can't be this dumb! Why would anyone ever buy a timeshare from them once this new program is introduced? It makes no sense to me, everyone (or their heirs) needs to sell their timeshare units at some point in the future.

Ma and Pa who wander into a Marriott sales gallery have no idea what they are doing - they signed up for the freebie and may eventually be talked into a sale. No one is bringing up resales to them and the fact that the instant the ink dries o the sales contract they just lost 50% of their money. Throw in 14% financing and the loss is equal to the initial price of the timeshare.

So what else is new?

 

[rsackett]

Why would anyone buy a timeshare from Marriott if they are told there is little opportunity to sell it on the resale market?

If Marriott markets this new plan and uses it as a way to promote developer sales, it will make it difficult to sell anything resale. So Marriott has a new internal trading system, but you can't use it if you don't purchase from Marriott?

What happens if I buy from Marriott and then at a later date this timeshare doesn't meet my needs? No one will want it because a resale unit can't utilize the Marriott internal trading system.

Marriott can't be this dumb! Why would anyone ever buy a timeshare from them once this new program is introduced? It makes no sense to me, everyone (or their heirs) needs to sell their timeshare units at some point in the future.

I also do not understand, however there are more than one person in this thread that have said that they concider the residual value of any timeshare they buy to be zero, and are still comfortable buying direct.

Ray

... That's what their business objective IS - to increase revenue! But their ongoing business practices have not been slanted towards protecting a certain financial value for the owners who purchased direct, so why would we expect a difference in their philosophy simply because resale purchasers may also suffer a loss if certain changes are implemented?

The way I see it, ROFR protects MVCI and not the owners. It's not meant to prop up resale prices (although that is sometimes a result of exercised ROFR); it's meant to give MVCI an opportunity to scoop up resales at the lowest possible price when/if MVCI has a ready buyer for a certain resort/season/unit. That's been the extent of MVCI's concern with resale value....

I have never realized it before but in thinking that way it is in Marriott's best interest to have ROFR AND very low resale prices. Scoop them up at very low prices and resell them at developer prices to uneducated buyers, or those that consider their initial purchase as an initiation fee to join the great Marriott system, i.e. no residual value.

Ray

 

[sdtugger]

Why would anyone buy a timeshare from Marriott if they are told there is little opportunity to sell it on the resale market?

If Marriott markets this new plan and uses it as a way to promote developer sales, it will make it difficult to sell anything resale. So Marriott has a new internal trading system, but you can't use it if you don't purchase from Marriott?

What happens if I buy from Marriott and then at a later date this timeshare doesn't meet my needs? No one will want it because a resale unit can't utilize the Marriott internal trading system.

Marriott can't be this dumb! Why would anyone ever buy a timeshare from them once this new program is introduced? It makes no sense to me, everyone (or their heirs) needs to sell their timeshare units at some point in the future.

This is an excellent point that I and others have made many times on this board. However, I believe Marriott is banking on the majority of owners/buyers not thinking about selling some day (even some on this board said they don't care about resale values). It makes no sense to me, but that is the only logical conclusion, isn't it?

 

[SueDonJ]

Why would anyone buy a timeshare from Marriott if they are told there is little opportunity to sell it on the resale market?

Possibly, for the same reasons that folks who buy direct from MVCI now do, despite knowing that they face a practically guaranteed financial loss should they choose to sell in the future? It's a hedged bet, at least it was for us, against the most drastic devaluation in usage that could occur in the future.

Because regardless of whatever supplemental exchange company or system (or any other related ownership allowance) that MVCI chooses, the only thing guaranteed by the ownership documents is the usage ability to occupy, rent or trade the specific resort/season/unit type that you've purchased.

It's all speculation here though, isn't it, leading to as severely depressed a resale market as is being discussed?

 

[sdtugger]

Points Strategies?

How does the existing Marriott point system work with regard to combining points from multiple units? I have the same question with regard to the Starwood and other systems. In other words, could you purchase two low cost weeks with low maintenance fees and combine the points to trade? If so, that might actually be a benefit of the new system? In other words, could two low value weeks equal a Hawaii plat week in the number of points for example?