Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[Dean]

I think it's really interesting to read people who actually put in writing they know so much more than others. It's amazing!

It doesn't matter that 93% of Marriott owners bought developer, which equates to hundreds of thousands of people. ALL these people were blindsighted and uninformed? What do you know that these people didn't?

Could it be these people were looking more long term than the short term savings of money? Could it be they WANTED to be a complete member of the Marriott vacation club to protect themselves from exactly what is happening now? You may have to rethink your comments when changes come around. Then how will you feel? Will you still feel as smart, or "in the know".

I assume these comments are aimed at me. I stand by them but did give exceptions for certain situations as I realize there can be special circumstances and yes, most of those retail owners are unaware of their options, with a few exceptions of course. I will bet you that IF there's a major change that screws those that bought resale in the past, past retail owners are likely to be little better off if at all. Time will tell.

In the interest of full disclosure, I have owned over 50 timeshare contracts/weeks over the years though many were at the same resorts. Of those, exactly 3 were retail purchases and all were relatively recently (in the last few years). Those 3 were, a small add on at DVC's Animal Kingdom pre-construction, a 3000 pt Bluegreen purchase converting my fixed weeks to 72K total BG points and a Platinum week at Surfwatch. However, part of the SW deal was that my 2 Grande Ocean weeks that were resale became retail units with no cost involved. Do you know anyone else that is able to get points on a Marriott week that was bought resale but not through Marriott in any way?

 

[SueDonJ]

IMO, there are very limited appropriate reasons for the truly informed to buy retail. Things like getting something you can't get resale like a fixed week on Maui or that hot new resort at good pre-construction prices might do it. Just to get points is likely not a good choice. To have financing options is also not a good choice. However, I realize that there needs to be many that do buy for the system to stay afloat and for those of us "in the know" to take advantage of the benefits of resale.

It's funny, but it was what I read on TUG that convinced me to buy developer-direct. For years I'd been reading the disboards all about DVC and when we realized that wouldn't work for both of us, I started reading TUG before we even thought about Marriott. Here I found all these folks writing about how only "suckers" buy direct, with more direct buyers than are participating today explaining their huge MRP incentives at new resorts and successful use of MRP exchange values for hotel stays and first-class tickets to Europe and awesome exchanges to Hawaii because their newer resorts had such good exchange value ... the list went on and on. But then there were the other people who quietly asked if the contracts did not prevent Marriott from ever distinguishing value between developer and resale units, did anybody think Marriott would ever do so?

Then we went to Hilton Head, fell in love with the island, and dumped what I thought was an obscene amount of money into renting oceanfront 3- and 4-BR condos for several years in a row. Visiting a real estate agent there quickly put the dream of actually owning one of those condos to bed for good (4M+ - no way was that happening,) but he told us that Marriott might have what we wanted. And they did - SurfWatch exceeded the quality of the condos considering the resort amenities and the flexibility of ownership, for a whole lot less money.

But during the presentation I kept hearing in my head the quiet question that I'd first heard here on TUG. I asked, "what's the difference between direct and resale?" and she answered, "direct will get you the incentive MRP and the opportunity to exchange your week for MRP." Then I asked, "will Marriott ever differentiate further between them?" and she answered, "I don't know, but there isn't anything in the works now that I know of." So I asked, "but can they?" and she answered that only the specific resort/season/unit configuration and usage options were guaranteed, any other facets of the ownership might be subject to change. I finished by asking about resale value, and she told me that no resale value is guaranteed but Marriott does have a program that allows folks who own the better weeks/units (gold, platinum, 2BR, 3BR) at the newer resorts to offer their unit for sale through Marriott's Resale Offices.

That was it. We chose the hedge bet, with absolutely no lies or threats or cajoling or insinuating on our salesperson's part. I know it's unbelievable, but it's true. Then we came home and joined TUG, actually paid money to get what could have been gotten forever for free. Both purchases have been worth every penny.

To make a long story short (HA!), we were informed buyers. But it was on TUG where we learned which questions to ask, and which were most important to us, before we signed on the dotted line.

 

[SueDonJ]

... However, part of the SW deal was that my 2 Grande Ocean weeks that were resale became retail units with no cost involved. Do you know anyone else that is able to get points on a Marriott week that was bought resale but not through Marriott in any way?

I don't, but I'll say honestly that I think it's great you were able to negotiate the deal that you did. I don't think it would ever occur to me!

 

[PerryM]

I am a lawyer. In the Imagined MAR Trading System (MTS), Marriott is not controlling how owners exchange their reservations, except within their voluntary system. You have a right to join or not, but can't argue with their terms.
. . .

The HOA doens't have to do anything, as the IMTS doesn't affect anyone's trading rights unless they choose to join, which is optional and voluntary. The HOA is only on the hook if Marriott (as its manager) doesn't allow you to reserve your week, in season, 12/13 months out, or allows anyone else to do otherwise.

Perry, you can set up the Perry Trading System (PTS), and allow resale and direct purchasers (or charge direct purchasers more), I suppose. Will you be able to market as well? No. Will you be as big and funded as Marriot (maybe ). But this is why some trading systmes work and others don't. Obviously Marriott would have a huge advantage, but has yet to dive into this area, possibly for anti-trust concerns as you allude to.

The point being (as has been made countless times but forgotten as many), the IMTS is nothing more than another trading option ala II, redweek, RCI, ownertrades, PTS... none of which were guranteed or contractually promised to purchasers, direct or not.

Marriott can set up any system they want and make it voluntary - I understand that.

The ability of one Marriott owner to exchange with another owner is provided now via II. We have had that ability for 15+ years.

Now Marriott wants to take that ability away with their own exchange system which will not allow folks in for any reason Marriott chooses. Today it's resales tomorrow it might be a VIP system they cook up for more sales.

Since the buildings say Marriott the resorts will go along with the Marriott system leaving the folks who don't want to participate a greatly reduced ability to exchange weeks among owners that they can do today.

That is a reduction in benefits to Marriott ownership which will be reflected in resale prices.

Sure its legal but it will harm Marriott owners and reduce the worth of their weeks on the resale market.

HOA's can elect to allow other exchange companies in addition to Marriott I believe. The HOAs might start talks with other exchange companies if the door is now wide open to new exchange companies.

All because Marriott wants to punish resale sales.

The days of "an owner is an owner" are ending at Marriott and we are headed down the Wyndham route - expect falling resale prices as a result. Wyndham resales average 5 cents on the sales dollar.

 

[SueDonJ]

Marriott can set up any system they want and make it voluntary - I understand that.

The ability of one Marriott owner to exchange with another owner is provided now via II. We have had that ability for 15+ years.

Now Marriott wants to take that ability away with their own exchange system which will not allow folks in for any reason Marriott chooses. Today it's resales tomorrow it might be a VIP system they cook up for more sales.

Since the buildings say Marriott the resorts will go along with the Marriott system leaving the folks who don't want to participate a greatly reduced ability to exchange weeks among owners that they can do today.

That is a reduction in benefits to Marriott ownership which will be reflected in resale prices.

Sure its legal but it will harm Marriott owners and reduce the worth of their weeks on the resale market.

HOA's can elect to allow other exchange companies in addition to Marriott I believe. The HOAs might start talks with other exchange companies if the door is now wide open to new exchange companies.

All because Marriott wants to punish resale sales.

Ah, Perry, you had me right up to there but then you lost me again. I'm in the camp who would say, "All because Marriott wants to increase revenue." But you can add, "...because they're bloodsucking vultures," if it makes you feel better.

 

[hotcoffee]

This is certainly true, and there would be no general rule without exceptions.

But, I have to agree with Icydog that MOST, first-time direct purchasers do not have the wisdom of TUG, nor understand 10% of what those who study here do; and I also agree that MOST (a super majority at least) are impulse purchases who buy the lies, promises and pitch that cannot be found in the purchase contract (side benefits) or governing documents (rights); and that MOST, first-time direct purchasers are invited to "preview" a resort for a gift and get blindsided by a high pressure sales pitch.

I actually considered buying from the developer last year. I had bought the unit I now have resale, of course, but the issue of being able to use points to travel to Marriott hotels rather than just timeshares was somewhat appealing. But, I would not make any such decision without a lot of additional thought. As I was leaving, the salesman wanted me to talk to another salesman who he said could handle sales for their east coast resorts (I had mentioned that I was interested in Myrtle Beach, SC). Both salesmen knew I had purchased resale, and this second salesman started warning me about all the bad things that Marriott was going to do to resale owners. He implied that resale owners would be excluded from the coming new exchange program, and he said that they would likely reduce the reservation window to 6 months. At that point, I felt enraged and ended the session. They couldn't have paid me to buy anything related to Marriott. Prior to that session, I had felt that Marriott was a pretty good company. After that, I began viewing them as a little on the sleazy side.

Nonetheless, I can see how someone would feel that the value-added perks would work well for them. In thinking it over, they would not work well for me; and if all timeshares were only available from direct sales, I would not buy one at all. The extra cost is just not worth it to me.

 

[davidvel]

Or will Marriott's computer grab all the good weeks at 8:00:00 using the points units and leave the crumbs for the nonconverting owner who calls at 8:00:01?

I posted about this about 10 pages back. This is my biggest concern about the "new system"-- something that would actually violate the CC&Rs and your deeded rights:

Marriott's "Program" can only ask participants to deposit the week you reserve into their program. They cannot manipulate the system so that they automatically reserve the week you will deposit, or othewise give any priority ahead of non-participants. . . . If Marriott is not completely transparent here, they (and each resort's HOA) will face litigation.
http://tugbbs.com/forums/showpost.php?p=765923&postcount=289

 

[davidvel]

He implied that resale owners would be excluded from the coming new exchange program, and he said that they would likely reduce the reservation window to 6 months. At that point, I felt enraged and ended the session. They couldn't have paid me to buy anything related to Marriott. Prior to that session, I had felt that Marriott was a pretty good company. After that, I began viewing them as a little on the sleazy side.

My point exactly. What about the masses that come in with no prior knowledge of timeshare, or less knowledge? You can only imagine what else they lie about. This is a blatent lie, no gray area what-so-ever. They cannot reduce the reservation window as this is in your deed and CC&Rs. They know this. I would love one of these guys to tell me this. (But then, I enjoy buying a car. )

 

[thinze3]

I actually considered buying from the developer last year. I had bought the unit I now have resale, of course, but the issue of being able to use points to travel to Marriott hotels rather than just timeshares was somewhat appealing. But, I would not make any such decision without a lot of additional thought. As I was leaving, the salesman wanted me to talk to another salesman who he said could handle sales for their east coast resorts (I had mentioned that I was interested in Myrtle Beach, SC). Both salesmen knew I had purchased resale, and this second salesman started warning me about all the bad things that Marriott was going to do to resale owners. He implied that resale owners would be excluded from the coming new exchange program, and he said that they would likely reduce the reservation window to 6 months. At that point, I felt enraged and ended the session. They couldn't have paid me to buy anything related to Marriott. Prior to that session, I had felt that Marriott was a pretty good company. After that, I began viewing them as a little on the sleazy side.

Nonetheless, I can see how someone would feel that the value-added perks would work well for them. In thinking it over, they would not work well for me; and if all timeshares were only available from direct sales, I would not buy one at all. The extra cost is just not worth it to me.

This was brought up by Dave in Jan '08. He said then that his contact stated that existing resale owners would probably be grandfathered in. Let's hope that is still the case.

Originally Posted by Dave M
Grandfathering? Yes, Marriott plans to grandfather all owners, presumably as of the date the change is announced or implemented. Thus, if you buy a Marriott timeshare on the resale market now, you will - as currently planned - be exempt from the proposed restrictions on resale weeks, whatever they might be. That makes sense because it would be a public relations nightmare if Marriott implemented such a drastic change that impacted existing owners – whether resale or not.

 

[Latravel]

"I assume these comments are aimed at me."

No, they weren't. They were aimed at the few people here that feel, or should I say, used to feel, smug because they are so much smarter than most Marriott owners (sounds childish, doesn't it?) by buying resale. All others are "suckers", as Sue puts it.

In the past, if I wrote a comment such as the one above, there would have been many posts attacking me for daring to defend my direct purchase. My intelligence would have been questioned. It's very surprising that the only-buy-resale crowd is so quiet. Why so quiet?

 

[davidvel]

I guess I'll have to speak up... ( I'm a resale buyer, not a "buy only resale" poster) :ignore:

 

[Dean]

"I assume these comments are aimed at me."

No, they weren't. They were aimed at the few people here that feel, or should I say, used to feel, smug because they are so much smarter than most Marriott owners (sounds childish, doesn't it?) by buying resale. All others are "suckers", as Sue puts it.

In the past, if I wrote a comment such as the one above, there would have been many posts attacking me for daring to defend my direct purchase. My intelligence would have been questioned. It's very surprising that the only-buy-resale crowd is so quiet. Why so quiet?

Given your post came immediately after mine and I do feel that there are limited reasons where it's reasonable to buy resale, as I posted, I assumed it was aimed at me. If not, I apologize but the message still stands that there are limited situations where it's a good choice. However, that's different that attacking one personally or one's intelligence. I try to never do those things. I think many of us realize that MOST people here made their first purchase retail then learned other options later. I am actually one of the exceptions that was involved in resale before it was a well known option. It's likely I was the very first DVC resale buyer which was my first purchase back in 94.

IMO, nothing has changed other than as some have said, a wait and see approach is a viable option. I would certainly not take the current rumors as a reasonable incentive to buy retail when one would otherwise buy resale. This could be fun for a while.

 

[gmarine]

There is no program that Marriott could come out with that would make me wish I spent $15K + more on a developer purchase.

 

[PerryM]

Dog eat dog...

It always amazes me that timeshare developers eventually seem to treat their customers as the devil – their biggest competitor. Marriott has resisted this trend up until 2-3 years ago when it had no weapon to fight resales but the MRP system – so they created a new one in the form of a rumor of an internal exchange system that only Marriott sold owners could use. This devalues the resale value of the owners’ weeks.

I’m convinced that Marriott has turned this corner where a caste system is needed and owner hating owner is encouraged – all in the name of making money the second time around on the same units they have already made a huge profit on.

Marriott is introducing this into mature projects – where they long ago sold every unit and now want to hurt the owners there so they can make money reselling the same units. The net result will be even lower resale prices and this time that lower price is for real – the Marriott week sold by an owner will have a huge negative drawback – the new owner can’t exchange their week with other Marriott owners in the same resort.

Imagine that – Marriott has turned owner against owner in the same building so they can make more money. Well they are simply joining Wyndham and other developers who do the same thing – owner fighting owner in the same building so the developer can make money the second and third time around.

 

[verby]

Bill,
what's wrong with starwood vacation point system?
...

I pointed out earlier in this thread that all the other hotel branded TS systems have a point system.
I also said that SVN (Starwood vacation) has the system which I would least like to see Marriott follow.

 

[Twinkstarr]

Bill,
what's wrong with starwood vacation point system?
...

Just go over to the Starwood subsection and take a look.

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103664

I'm a Starwood voluntary resort owner, but the voluntary/mandatory rules were in place when I bought. I knew what I was getting into.

 

[taffy19]

If you go by the crowds at the informal updates Marriott has for owners, I'm not sure there are a lot of savy Marriott owners out there. Most of the owners I've spoken to over the years seem to be doing good just figuring out how to use their weeks and make the occasional exchange. There are a few that really understand the system but they seem to be few and far between.

The one thing Marriott does right is having reps that can assist owners get what they want out of their ownership. It seems that, for the most part at least, one doesn't have to be very savy to get decent milage out of their ownership.

I go to the informal updates for a few reasons. If there's been changes, it's a decent place to learn. If I've come up with a question I usually get a decent answer (depends on the knowledge level of the presenter). They usually lay out something I either haven't considered, hadn't thought about, didn't know or had forgotten along the way. Finally, it's mildly entertaining when someone complains that the silver studio week they deposited for exchange last week isn't pulling the platinum Hawaiian 2 bedroom ocean front week for next month like their salesman told them it would.

Do you mean the workshop about exchanging for the owners? We never used to go to them because we hardly exchange but we went this March. The room was full and I agree that most people have no clue so the information was interesting to them. The person also showed pictures of the new resorts that you could exchange into and he mentioned something about them too. I found it worthwhile going to this workshop as you stated too. It was here that I learned that St. Kitts is one of the most demanded resorts now for exchanging. Maui was still up there too.

 

[taffy19]

Have it ever been hinted to you that Marriott intended to get more involved in resales? At the sales presentation last year (I refused to go this year), the salesman made a remark similar to that. I have not seen any comments here about anyone else having heard a salesman state that. Am I the only person who was told anything like that?

To me, that would be a viable option because I would assume that if anyone were to buy a resale through Marriott, he would gain normal access to the new point trading system even if current resale owners are not (or given expensive access). That would preserve value in one's timeshare. Of course, independent brokers would likely cry foul.

As long as I can reserve, exchange, and sell when needed, I don't care much about how the new system will work. I might even join it if the cost is reasonable, and if I am not excluded.

I was told the same thing too and did comment about it in this thread (#145). If this is true, I would be happy and it will benefit all owners too because the re-sale prices do not have to drop so much so you don't have to take such a loss when you have to sell and certainly if you bought from the developer direct.

There will always be an open re-sale market as people may have to sell quickly for whatever reason. The question is will Marriott handle re-sales for all their locations or only where there is high demand? Haven't they done this all along until recently because very few people are buying today?

I still cannot understand why the Marriott is not putting a stop to all these rumors as it must hurt their business name. It may also hurt their direct sales as well as re-sales if more people hear about these rumors. It just doesn't make sense to me. :annoyed:

Whatever they do, I hope it is on a voluntary basis only so you don't have to join. Direct exchanges between owners may become more popular now.

 

[hotcoffee]

General questions about point trading systems

Departing from the predominant discussion of effect on resale values of the coming new points system, I would like to address some questions to those who are reasonably familiar with the existing points trading systems of other companies. I am pretty much unfamiliar with such systems, knowing only what I have learned on TUG.

Assuming one joins a typical point system at some reasonable cost:

1. I assume that he would be awarded a set number of points for his timeshare, the amount of which would be determined by the timeshare company, correct?
2. If his timeshare was a 2-BR in the continental US, and he wanted to exchange into a 2-BR in Hawaii, I assume that he might not have been awarded enough points to do that. Would it be likely that he then could:

A. Buy a sufficient number of additional points so as to have enough to make the trade he wants?
B. Accumulate two years worth of points to gain enough to make the trade he wants?
C. Never be able to trade into Hawaii?

If the answer to the last question in 2, is both A and B, then a points system might work for someone who does not use his timeshare every year because he could choose B. But, for someone who is used to using his timeshare every year and sometimes succeeding in get an exchange through II into Hawaii, and still wants to do that, would option A be his only recourse? Is it likely he would still be able to make that exchange through II without having to spend money buying more points?

I am trying to get an idea in advance of how one might be able to make use of a system like what might be coming to his advantage.

 

[taffy19]

Thought I would post this link to the points chart for Hilton so people can get a look at the distribution that Hilton uses. It is a little more detailed than the one TUG has. Newer resorts have higher point values but the vast majority of Hilton ts use this chart. Plus and Premier are upgrades generally based on location, size or view.

http://www.alltimeshare.com/HiltonPointsPerSeason.html

If something like this is put in, the people bought Silver or Bronze will be extremely unhappy with the new system. (Of course they can just stay with the old system.) A 2BR Silver week would only get a 1BR Gold or a Studio Plus (if available at the resort they want) during Platinum time.

This is one drawback about points. The newest resorts will always have more points so the week at your own resort won't give you a full week at a newer resort if you want to go there.

A light bulb went on in my head when I saw the Hilton point chart. Since Marriott cannot "print" points since it is a week-based system, they may decide to have a re-sale market at all locations in all colors because people need additional points so can add an older and cheaper resort to their portfolio through the Marriott direct and all the developer perks will go to the new owner automatically and he can join the new internal exchange system too. This is another income stream for the Marriott that they can use to get enough points in the new system and they can exercise their ROFR too if they are low enough. I have a feeling that all present owners will be grandfathered if you decide to join the new system but it will cost you.

Commission fees have always been the same for everyone so if you are patient, you can decide to sell through them or if you need to sell fast, you can use a re-sale broker but that buyer may not be grand-fathered to the new system but I am only speculating here. Most resorts are doing what they can to stop the re-sale market slowing down their direct sales, I guess.

 

[Troopers]

Departing from the predominant discussion of effect on resale values of the coming new points system, I would like to address some questions to those who are reasonably familiar with the existing points trading systems of other companies. I am pretty much unfamiliar with such systems, knowing only what I have learned on TUG.

Assuming one joins a typical point system at some reasonable cost:

1. I assume that he would be awarded a set number of points for his timeshare, the amount of which would be determined by the timeshare company, correct? Starwood (SVN) determines # of points based on season, resort, unit size & view.
2. If his timeshare was a 2-BR in the continental US, and he wanted to exchange into a 2-BR in Hawaii, I assume that he might not have been awarded enough points to do that. This happens all the time. Would it be likely that he then could:

A. Buy a sufficient number of additional points so as to have enough to make the trade he wants? In SVN, one can not buy more points. One has to buy more week(s), which than equates to more points.
B. Accumulate two years worth of points to gain enough to make the trade he wants? No banking allowed in SVN. Borrowing is allowed but with restrictions making it difficult to use.
C. Never be able to trade into Hawaii? It's possible but it may end up being a smaller unit, island view, etc. All depends on point values.

If the answer to the last question in 2, is both A and B, then a points system might work for someone who does not use his timeshare every year because he could choose B. But, for someone who is used to using his timeshare every year and sometimes succeeding in get an exchange through II into Hawaii, and still wants to do that, would option A be his only recourse? Is it likely he would still be able to make that exchange through II without having to spend money buying more points? II is an option but I wouldn't count on it.

I am trying to get an idea in advance of how one might be able to make use of a system like what might be coming to his advantage.

There's more to Starwood's trading system than that. Except for the voluntary/mandatory issue, I think it's great...it favors the owners collectively as a group.

 

[Dean]

Departing from the predominant discussion of effect on resale values of the coming new points system, I would like to address some questions to those who are reasonably familiar with the existing points trading systems of other companies. I am pretty much unfamiliar with such systems, knowing only what I have learned on TUG.

Assuming one joins a typical point system at some reasonable cost:

1. I assume that he would be awarded a set number of points for his timeshare, the amount of which would be determined by the timeshare company, correct?
2. If his timeshare was a 2-BR in the continental US, and he wanted to exchange into a 2-BR in Hawaii, I assume that he might not have been awarded enough points to do that. Would it be likely that he then could:

A. Buy a sufficient number of additional points so as to have enough to make the trade he wants?
B. Accumulate two years worth of points to gain enough to make the trade he wants?
C. Never be able to trade into Hawaii?

If the answer to the last question in 2, is both A and B, then a points system might work for someone who does not use his timeshare every year because he could choose B. But, for someone who is used to using his timeshare every year and sometimes succeeding in get an exchange through II into Hawaii, and still wants to do that, would option A be his only recourse? Is it likely he would still be able to make that exchange through II without having to spend money buying more points?

I am trying to get an idea in advance of how one might be able to make use of a system like what might be coming to his advantage.

The one's I know best that are applicable are Bluegreen, Disney and RCI points. They are all different. Disney has 1 resort coming in HI but the points are not out. BG has 1, but it is an affiliate and not a core resort. RCI points also is limited. Disney is points based entirely where a week has essentially no meaning, Bluegreen and RCI are both points based for underlying weeks (or portions of a week in limited situations), I believe Wyndham is a combination of the two types with newer being points only and older ones based on underlying weeks. Extracting from other information for other destinations and a little info about other points systems, here are a few thoughts.

Marriott has a weeks based system and thus would have to take that approach. A given resort, week and unit size would give X points. They'd have to have a way to allow you to keep your week. RCI points and BG does this by giving you a priority window to reserve your owned underlying week. The floating nature of Marriott's weeks system definitely throws a curve ball to this. Do they allow you to reserve only the week on your deed or only to the units/weeks that are included in the points system? That part could get tricky but I'm sure there's a decent way to do it that's fair to everyone. Maybe they allow you to reserve the week first then deposit to points similar to the way Hyatt does it.

They then have to decide on HOW they allow reservations. Given you'd have mostly weeks and limited points week early, reservations could be quite tricky and difficult for points more so than weeks though much later when it was mostly points, the tables would be turned. Do they allow only full weeks and only allow shorter reservation much later? Until there is wide spread participation I don't see how they could do anything other than a full week at the initial run. Both BG and I believe Wyndham, have a priority reservation system for retail owners that qualify. The benefits are really quite striking. It's a combo of qualified points (usually retail) AND the number of points you own. Marriott could do something like this or they could take the DVC or Club Intrawest approach where everyone is on the same plane and no one has a priority, or some in between options. BG has generally allowed you to buy something small directly (including resale through them) to move to the inner circle. I know fairfield did similar or a moderate conversion fee early on, not sure where they're going with fixed week owner currently or if they've written them off.

IMO, they'd need a large amount of participation early so some way to get a large portion of current owners to convert over would be imperative for a viable system. They could do so by charging a fee that was easily workable or they could allow conversions for the purchase of an additional week or just invite all comers if they wanted. The list of possibilities is almost endless. For new resorts they just start selling points but if there are only a handful of resorts on board, that doesn't get much interest because a new points owner needs access to the other resorts to be interested in this type of system. For new resorts they wouldn't even have to base them on a full week if they didn't want to.

Then there's the question of dues. DVC does it by resort per point with no adjustment for small or large contracts, not really a very fair system overall though. BG (mostly) does it as a base fee then so much per point and all members (mostly) pay the same base fee and pp costs no matter which resort they own. They also spread any assessments this way as well over the entire group. BG has some that are treated differently but this is the main portion that is applicable to this discussion IMO. For Marriott I think full fees for the resort, plus a club fee is most likely.

Then there's reservation and cancelation options. Do you charge for reservations, cancelations, banking/borrowing (if even allowed), housekeeping costs for shorter reservations like RCI points and Wyndham, etc, etc. The list of topics along this direction is almost endless.

As to trading, I think it depends on the resort and location. The difference for say Harbour Pt and Grande Ocean is likely much greater than the different from GO to any of the HI resorts. Then there's the 2 BR vs lockoff breakdown. More important might be the chance of getting a given reservation. I'll stop there.

 

[hotcoffee]

The one's I know best that are applicable are Bluegreen, Disney and RCI points.

The earlier post mentioned that SVN does not allow banking of points. Do any of the other systems that you know of allow any points rollover from year-to-year? If not, this is goiing to be a real bummer for a lot of people. The only people who will do well will be the owners at top-tier resorts in top locations during platinum seasons. No one else gains much beyond what they already have as far as I can see, and some will even lose. I'm trying to see some advantage to joining (even if it would be free to join).

 

[linsj]

Departing from the predominant discussion of effect on resale values of the coming new points system, I would like to address some questions to those who are reasonably familiar with the existing points trading systems of other companies. I am pretty much unfamiliar with such systems, knowing only what I have learned on TUG.

Assuming one joins a typical point system at some reasonable cost:

1. I assume that he would be awarded a set number of points for his timeshare, the amount of which would be determined by the timeshare company, correct?
2. If his timeshare was a 2-BR in the continental US, and he wanted to exchange into a 2-BR in Hawaii, I assume that he might not have been awarded enough points to do that. Would it be likely that he then could:

A. Buy a sufficient number of additional points so as to have enough to make the trade he wants?
B. Accumulate two years worth of points to gain enough to make the trade he wants?
C. Never be able to trade into Hawaii?

For me, a points system works much better than weeks (although I did buy a week at Kauai Beach Villas last year). I'll answer your questions for Hilton:

1. Yes.

2. No. Except for two new properties with higher point systems, it takes the same number of points for the same season for the same size unit, no matter where the property is. The difference comes in how the seasons are allocated for the properties. My first HGVC purchase was 5000 points, which on paper = a 2-bedroom gold in Orlando. With those points, I have been able to get 3+ weeks in a Hawaii studio gold season, or I could get a week in a 1-bedroom platinum with points leftover.

2A. You'd have to buy another unit which comes with a second MF.

2B. You may borrow from the next two years' points or bank this year's points into next year, called rescuing.

Note: Not all of Hilton's new properties have a higher point system. The two new ones in Hawaii do, but the new one in Orlando does not even though it's touted as upscale as the others.

 

[Troopers]

The earlier post mentioned that SVN does not allow banking of points. Do any of the other systems that you know of allow any points rollover from year-to-year? If not, this is goiing to be a real bummer for a lot of people. The only people who will do well will be the owners at top-tier resorts in top locations during platinum seasons. No one else gains much beyond what they already have as far as I can see, and some will even lose. I'm trying to see some advantage to joining (even if it would be free to join).

Disney allows banking, valid for one year. Don’t know about the others.

It all depends on point values. Most Starwood resorts have the same point value for 2 bedroom platinum season.