Marriott points and internal exchange program - the latest info

[Dean]

I wonder what people would have thought if Dave had gotten the info and not shared. No matter the outcome and no matter the intent of the other party, I feel Dave did the right thing and appreciate him sharing. He is well placed and often has access to things that many of us do not, I hope the negatives on this thread don't dissuade him from doing so in the future.

 

[PerryM]

And the winner is....

I wonder what people would have thought if Dave had gotten the info and not shared. No matter the outcome and no matter the intent of the other party, I feel Dave did the right thing and appreciate him sharing. He is well placed and often has access to things that many of us do not, I hope the negatives on this thread don't dissuade him from doing so in the future.

The Marriott sponsored rumor is probably blowing up in their face.

With Marriott dropping the ROFR, but not the charge to check it, resale prices are doing down - you can argue which causes which but smart TUG members are snapping up resale Marriotts at once-in-a-lifetime prices. (These sales account for a tiny fraction of total resales)

More resales to TUG members are the unintended consequence of a slimy sales gimmick on Marriott's part.

Will resale owners be grandfathered in? Who knows and that's the risk of buying now.

If Marriott does what the rumor threatens, set up a caste system of Marriott owners, then resales will drop even lower but the ROFR might be then executed.

Personally I think that's Marriott's plan from the get-go spread a rumor that makes resales look bad and the new exchange system will make them look even worse.

The day Marriott releases this new system will be the day they start to exercise the ROFR if it hasn't been resurrected yet.

Marriott wins with snapping up fire-sale prices of resales and fees to join the new exchange system.

Just one Marriott owner's guess...

 

[Dean]

The Marriott sponsored rumor is probably blowing up in their face.

With Marriott dropping the ROFR, but not the charge to check it, resale prices are doing down - you can argue which causes which but smart TUG members are snapping up resale Marriotts at once-in-a-lifetime prices. (These sales account for a tiny fraction of total resales)

More resales to TUG members are the unintended consequence of a slimy sales gimmick on Marriott's part.

Will resale owners be grandfathered in? Who knows and that's the risk of buying now.

If Marriott does what the rumor threatens, set up a caste system of Marriott owners, then resales will drop even lower but the ROFR might be then executed.

Personally I think that's Marriott's plan from the get-go spread a rumor that makes resales look bad and the new exchange system will make them look even worse.

The day Marriott releases this new system will be the day they start to exercise the ROFR if it hasn't been resurrected yet.

Marriott wins with snapping up fire-sale prices of resales and fees to join the new exchange system.

Just one Marriott owner's guess...

Perry, I thought you no longer owned a Marriott, did you buy another one?

 

[PerryM]

Perry, I thought you no longer owned a Marriott, did you buy another one?

Have bought and sold 5 Marriotts and still own a resale Gold Summit Watch that we have exchanged into the Maui Ocean Club for 4 years (including next year) now.

The rumored exchange program will kill that.

 

[Dean]

Have bought and sold 5 Marriotts and still own a resale Gold Summit Watch that we have exchanged into the Maui Ocean Club for 4 years (including next year) now.

The rumored exchange program will kill that.

Thanks, I thought you'd gotten out totally or at least implied you were going to. I can't get all doom and gloom at this point but at least I own good underlying weeks and resorts of my 8 (3 of which are counted as retail). Only 2 of which I'd routinely trade anyway.

 

[PerryM]

Casualties of war are we...

Thanks, I thought you'd gotten out totally or at least implied you were going to. I can't get all doom and gloom at this point but at least I own good underlying weeks and resorts of my 8 (3 of which are counted as retail). Only 2 of which I'd routinely trade anyway.

I understand, but understand that the rumored exchange system with its caste component will negatively affect Marriott resale prices on the day of release and every day after that.

At some point every Marriott week exchanges owners - inheritance or resale. Marriott is going to war over resales which have little impact on them now but over the long run eat away at profits more each year.

Marriott is the one declaring war on this matter and there is no reason they should be doing this.

It's their rumor - they control it and its purpose, which is to scare the hell out of owners.

Now if Marriott drops the Caste component then everyone wins - resales are not impacted and Marriott makes huge bucks from resale owners.

So Marriott, drop the damn caste component of the exchange system.

 

[Dean]

I understand, but understand that the rumored exchange system with its caste component will negatively affect Marriott resale prices on the day of release and every day after that.

At some point every Marriott week exchanges owners - inheritance or resale. Marriott is going to war over resales which have little impact on them now but over the long run eat away at profits more each year.

Marriott is the one declaring war on this matter and there is no reason they should be doing this.

It's their rumor - they control it and its purpose, which is to scare the hell out of owners.

Now if Marriott drops the Caste component then everyone wins - resales are not impacted and Marriott makes huge bucks from resale owners.

So Marriott, drop the damn caste component of the exchange system.

Obviously anything that significantly changes the status quo has the possibility of changing retail and resale both numbers and prices. It may or may not have that much of an effect on prices compared to where they are now. I'm not willing to concede that even this specific change would have that dramatic of an effect, time will tell.

 

[SueDonJ]

... Now if Marriott drops the Caste component then everyone wins - resales are not impacted and Marriott makes huge bucks from resale owners.

So Marriott, drop the damn caste component of the exchange system.

Funny how the system that's in place which allows a guaranteed loss upon resale for developer-purchases is okay with you, but a system which might allow a guaranteed loss upon resale for resale-purchases is not. Huh.

Please understand - I'm not advocating that MVCI must do something! to equalize the current discrepancy or give an advantage to developer-purchasers. I've said many times that I understand the way the current system works and am very happy with my purchases despite the negative resale value I'm faced with. The system works for me as is.

But again, the contradiction is amusing.

 

[PerryM]

The Scarlet "R" is the solution....

Funny how the system that's in place which allows a guaranteed loss upon resale for developer-purchases is okay with you, but a system which might allow a guaranteed loss upon resale for resale-purchases is not. Huh.

Please understand - I'm not advocating that MVCI must do something! to equalize the current discrepancy or give an advantage to developer-purchasers. I've said many times that I understand the way the current system works and am very happy with my purchases despite the negative resale value I'm faced with. The system works for me as is.

But again, the contradiction is amusing.

I play the game according to the rules - do it in many parts of my life.

There are always outside forces that want to change the rules and not play the game. Sore losers.

The existing II exchange system has worked just fine for 15+ years now - why change it? We already have a 24 day exclusive Marriott owner to owner ability now. Marriott could easily change this to 8 weeks - a full 2 months we have to exchange amongst ourselves.

The sold out Marriotts, the ones where Marriott simply cleans the toilets, are going to be impacted by what Marriott does now - why is this OK with anyone?

Marriott can release a 21st century Points system that allows ALL owners, even those at resorts where Marriott just cleans the toilets, to exchange amongst ourselves and they make a profit for creating this for us.

But the kicker here is the caste system - those that bought a recycled Marriott from Marriott and the dog poop who bought from another Marriott owner without cutting Marriott in on the deal. Marriott already made a gross 400% profit once on the initial sale - they need more?

Marriott - here's an idea. On sold out Marriott resorts ALL owners qualify for the new exchange system - ALWAYS. On Marriott resorts, under construction, any resale owner must wear a large red "R" on their shirts while at the resort. Those Scarlet R folks don't qualify for the new exchange system until you have sold all units and shut down the boiler rooms. Then they can remove the R and join the new exchange system with their heads held high.

While at the Marriott resorts under construction normal folks would walk on one side of the street while the Scarlet R folks must walk on the other side with their eyes never making contact with the normal folks.

That sounds fair to me.

 

[wsrobinson]

I understand, but understand that the rumored exchange system with its caste component will negatively affect Marriott resale prices on the day of release and every day after that.

I'm not sure that any implementation of a "caste system" will have a negative effect on resales or direct sales at all. All of this being completely hypothetical, if there is a point value given based on a particular week (perhaps loosely based on the TDI) and you own platinum GO OF. I would expect you to have the highest point value in the system. If you bought resale, you have the same value as a retail buyer. Seems simple.

However, if you bought an off season at a less desirable resort wouldn't you EXPECT to have a lower point value? Resale or otherwise. I think it's about what you own. I own platinum weeks and therefore am not worried in the slightest. I also occupy my home Marriott resorts each year. The whole concept doesn't appeal to me at all.

I used to think the concept of timesharing was brilliant. Sell the same unit 52 times over. Then, the points concept came along. Convince your owners to convert to points telling them what the point values will be. Then raise the point values (so owners can no longer go where they had been going) and force the owners to buy more points. That is brilliance!!! I am not saying this is where Marriott is headed. I just appreciate the ingenuity here.

 

[SueDonJ]

... That sounds fair to me.

I guess I just don't expect "fair" unless it's guaranteed to me in some form or fashion, and there are no guarantees that MVCI will continue its current exchange program as is with II. I agree, Perry, that the system in place now works just fine for owners - we've managed some outstanding exchanges, made good use of the bonus AC's, and enjoy very much the weeks that we spend at our home resorts.

But as others have said, maybe it's possible for MVCI to increase revenue by tweaking with the exchange program. If so, then why would we expect them to not do so? That's what their business objective IS - to increase revenue! But their ongoing business practices have not been slanted towards protecting a certain financial value for the owners who purchased direct, so why would we expect a difference in their philosophy simply because resale purchasers may also suffer a loss if certain changes are implemented?

The way I see it, ROFR protects MVCI and not the owners. It's not meant to prop up resale prices (although that is sometimes a result of exercised ROFR); it's meant to give MVCI an opportunity to scoop up resales at the lowest possible price when/if MVCI has a ready buyer for a certain resort/season/unit. That's been the extent of MVCI's concern with resale value.

And again, why would any of us expect that to change?

(Besides, none of us wants to be forced to wear uniforms while we're vacationing. What fun is that?! )

 

[PerryM]

I believe Marriott...

I'm not sure that any implementation of a "caste system" will have a negative effect on resales or direct sales at all. All of this being completely hypothetical, if there is a point value given based on a particular week (perhaps loosely based on the TDI) and you own platinum GO OF. I would expect you to have the highest point value in the system. If you bought resale, you have the same value as a retail buyer. Seems simple.

However, if you bought an off season at a less desirable resort wouldn't you EXPECT to have a lower point value? Resale or otherwise. I think it's about what you own. I own platinum weeks and therefore am not worried in the slightest. I also occupy my home Marriott resorts each year. The whole concept doesn't appeal to me at all.

I used to think the concept of timesharing was brilliant. Sell the same unit 52 times over. Then, the points concept came along. Convince your owners to convert to points telling them what the point values will be. Then raise the point values (so owners can no longer go where they had been going) and force the owners to buy more points. That is brilliance!!! I am not saying this is where Marriott is headed. I just appreciate the ingenuity here.

The proof will be one month after Marriott releases their caste system - we will know 100% if that caste system helped or hurt the resale owner - which is eventually all of us.

Marriott believes it will hurt resales - that's why Marriott is pushing the rumor at the first sign of resales in the sales pitch - the new system will hurt resales is what they preach.

I take Marriott at their word.

 

[PerryM]

The need for greed

I guess I just don't expect "fair" unless it's guaranteed to me in some form or fashion, and there are no guarantees that MVCI will continue its current exchange program as is with II. I agree, Perry, that the system in place now works just fine for owners - we've managed some outstanding exchanges, made good use of the bonus AC's, and enjoy very much the weeks that we spend at our home resorts.

But as others have said, maybe it's possible for MVCI to increase revenue by tweaking with the exchange program. If so, then why would we expect them to not do so? That's what their business objective IS - to increase revenue! But their ongoing business practices have not been slanted towards protecting a certain financial value for the owners who purchased direct, so why would we expect a difference in their philosophy simply because resale purchasers may also suffer a loss if certain changes are implemented?

The way I see it, ROFR protects MVCI and not the owners. It's not meant to prop up resale prices (although that is sometimes a result of exercised ROFR); it's meant to give MVCI an opportunity to scoop up resales at the lowest possible price when/if MVCI has a ready buyer for a certain resort/season/unit. That's been the extent of MVCI's concern with resale value.

And again, why would any of us expect that to change?

(Besides, none of us wants to be forced to wear uniforms while we're vacationing. What fun is that?! )

The existing system that I bought into 10 years ago is "fair" to me - the rules have not changed and I play the game well. Other Marriott owners don't even use their weeks - they pay the MFs and just don't go to their villa. They don't exchange them they just pay for the MFs, mortgage, and sit at home.

I've talked to many Marriott owners who do this - they typically want advice on how to sell their week.

Now Marriott is about to change all of that - they are changing the rules.

This is fine for folks buying in on the day of the new system's release at resorts where resales are competition to unsold developer inventory.

But is it "fair" for Marriott to impact the resale value and the enjoyment value of a resort that they sold out long ago and today simply are the hired help?

Marriott has to weigh this need for greed and weigh it against bad press and a permanent black eye. That's Marriott's choice.

Does Marriott have that right to send in brown shirts to a Marriott resort and completely upset the status quo? I suspect at least one HOA will fight back and this will become something that a judge decides. Just a wild guess on my part. I can easily envision a restraining order a few days after the release - talk about chaos.

 

[dougp26364]

I wonder what people would have thought if Dave had gotten the info and not shared. No matter the outcome and no matter the intent of the other party, I feel Dave did the right thing and appreciate him sharing. He is well placed and often has access to things that many of us do not, I hope the negatives on this thread don't dissuade him from doing so in the future.

While I appreciate DaveM's inside information, it's what we as members do to it that I find most entertaining.

All that was said was sometime in 2010 Marriott should unveil their internal exchange points program but, delay's are possible. It will be affordable enough that many members are expected to join. Resale members may have to pay more to join that those that bought direct. The majority of Marriott owners purchased direct.

Members have speculated and added to that basic information. They've speculated on how the program will work, how much it will cost, how many members will join, how it might affect resale values and how it will effect owners. The problem with all this speculation is, we're speculating without any evidence of what Marriott has planned.

Until Marriott releases the details, I wouldn't rely on any information in this thread past what DaveM posted. That being that an internal points program will eventually be released and members will have more choices than ever before. After that, it's all guesswork.

The only thing that has changed for me is that I wouldn't be buying anything from Marriott until this issue is settled. I woudn't buy direct from Marriott because I don't want to be tagged with additional fee's to join shortly after paying thousands of dollars for a "new" timeshare week. I woudn't buy resale because Marriott could lock resale buyers out of this program or, charge them considerably more to join. So the rumor has essentially killed any desire I have to buy additional Marriott weeks.

 

[PerryM]

While I appreciate DaveM's inside information, it's what we as members do to it that I find most entertaining.

All that was said was sometime in 2010 Marriott should unveil their internal exchange points program but, delay's are possible. It will be affordable enough that many members are expected to join. Resale members may have to pay more to join that those that bought direct. The majority of Marriott owners purchased direct.

Members have speculated and added to that basic information. They've speculated on how the program will work, how much it will cost, how many members will join, how it might affect resale values and how it will effect owners. The problem with all this speculation is, we're speculating without any evidence of what Marriott has planned.

Until Marriott releases the details, I wouldn't rely on any information in this thread past what DaveM posted. That being that an internal points program will eventually be released and members will have more choices than ever before. After that, it's all guesswork.

The only thing that has changed for me is that I wouldn't be buying anything from Marriott until this issue is settled. I woudn't buy direct from Marriott because I don't want to be tagged with additional fee's to join shortly after paying thousands of dollars for a "new" timeshare week. I woudn't buy resale because Marriott could lock resale buyers out of this program or, charge them considerably more to join. So the rumor has essentially killed any desire I have to buy additional Marriott weeks.

The law of unintended consequences Marriott - are you listening? No of course not all those salesreps need to shoot off their mouths since they can't sell timeshares in any quantity anymore.

 

[Pens_Fan]

Does Marriott have that right to send in brown shirts to a Marriott resort and completely upset the status quo? I suspect at least one HOA will fight back and this will become something that a judge decides. Just a wild guess on my part. I can easily envision a restraining order a few days after the release - talk about chaos.

Wow.

The term "Drama Queen" comes to mind.

 

[PerryM]

Wow.

The term "Drama Queen" comes to mind.

Glad I have your attention - thanks for the plug.

 

[SueDonJ]

... But is it "fair" for Marriott to impact the resale value and the enjoyment value of a resort that they sold out long ago and today simply are the hired help?

Again, Perry, I find that we don't necessarily disagree, we just have different expectations of our MVCI ownership. To me, what's "fair" doesn't matter; it's what they have a legal right to do that we should be concerned with.

The fact that MVCI holds the right to ROFR any unit at most every one of their resorts (I think there's one or two with no ROFR?) negates your distinction between a newer resort where developer sales are ongoing and older resorts which have no developer inventory available. Doesn't it? I think yes, because at any time MVCI could swoop in and purchase by ROFR any unit which is placed on the resale market, so theoretically MVCI is an active developer at every resort which allows for ROFR.

 

[SueDonJ]

... The only thing that has changed for me is that I wouldn't be buying anything from Marriott until this issue is settled. I woudn't buy direct from Marriott because I don't want to be tagged with additional fee's to join shortly after paying thousands of dollars for a "new" timeshare week. I woudn't buy resale because Marriott could lock resale buyers out of this program or, charge them considerably more to join. So the rumor has essentially killed any desire I have to buy additional Marriott weeks.

All of which makes a person appreciate Marriott's timing here, eh? The economy has pretty much depressed MVCI's market anyway, so they may as well roll this out at the same time. Implement it in time to work out the kinks before the market starts rebounding - that's as near to the best marketing dream that they could envision.

 

[PerryM]

Again, Perry, I find that we don't necessarily disagree, we just have different expectations of our MVCI ownership. To me, what's "fair" doesn't matter; it's what they have a legal right to do that we should be concerned with.

The fact that MVCI holds the right to ROFR any unit at most every one of their resorts (I think there's one or two with no ROFR?) negates your distinction between a newer resort where developer sales are ongoing and older resorts which have no developer inventory available. Doesn't it? I think yes, because at any time MVCI could swoop in and purchase by ROFR any unit which is placed on the resale market, so theoretically MVCI is an active developer at every resort which allows for ROFR.

I like the ROFR I believe it is better to have a developer have it and use it for their enrichment than to have the developer at war with the owners over resales. That's just my opinion which I can't prove.

Marriott made huge profits from the initial sale of developer inventory. The question is for the HOAs does Marriott have the right to implement sales tactics that harm the sold out resort? I'm not a lawyer and I don't know.

Marriott is the one demanding to change the rules here that we have operated under for many many years. I'm sure that somewhere in the fine print of the documents there are provisions that allow them to do all kinds of things.

HOAs will have to decide if what the hired contractor is doing to their owners is worth a fight. If they decide that Marriott will harm their resort so much they can find another management company.

All of this is unknown but one thing is for certain - when Marriott rolls out the new exchange system its going to cost us all more money and will the results be worth it?

Marriott has encouraged wild speculation by shooting off its mouth on this topic. Apparently they want a lively discussion by the owners and the HOAs.

That's my conclusion to their rumor.

 

[RandR]

Perry, what percentage of MVCI owners would you say are "savvy"? I have no idea but figure you might be able to guess since you have been doing this for a while. Basically, what I mean is, how many owners will even understand the changes that are coming? For every SueDonJ who bought retail going in with her eyes open, there are probably lots of people that didn't. If the vast majority of owners are not "educated", like those you mentioned who pay but never go, they may just go along with the new system being none the wiser. (especially if the fee is waived initially.) Then any new people would just be put into the new system automatically. This could get the numbers up very quickly.

 

[PerryM]

Perry, what percentage of MVCI owners would you say are "savvy"? I have no idea but figure you might be able to guess since you have been doing this for a while. Basically, what I mean is, how many owners will even understand the changes that are coming? For every SueDonJ who bought retail going in with her eyes open, there are probably lots of people that didn't. If the vast majority of owners are not "educated", like those you mentioned who pay but never go, they may just go along with the new system being none the wiser. (especially if the fee is waived initially.) Then any new people would just be put into the new system automatically. This could get the numbers up very quickly.

I think most Marriott owners are very happy with their ownership - how many are "savvy" are probably here on TUG.

Marriott knows that they can introduce anything they want and there won't be a whimper of a complaint.

The HOAs are another matter all together - these folks have a fiduciary responsibility to the owners - this is where any problems will pop up.

I, personally, won't do a thing with ANY mouth watering Marriott that should show up on eBay - I'm with dougP - I won't do anything until this system is released.

 

[dougp26364]

If you go by the crowds at the informal updates Marriott has for owners, I'm not sure there are a lot of savy Marriott owners out there. Most of the owners I've spoken to over the years seem to be doing good just figuring out how to use their weeks and make the occasional exchange. There are a few that really understand the system but they seem to be few and far between.

The one thing Marriott does right is having reps that can assist owners get what they want out of their ownership. It seems that, for the most part at least, one doesn't have to be very savy to get decent milage out of their ownership.

I go to the informal updates for a few reasons. If there's been changes, it's a decent place to learn. If I've come up with a question I usually get a decent answer (depends on the knowledge level of the presenter). They usually lay out something I either haven't considered, hadn't thought about, didn't know or had forgotten along the way. Finally, it's mildly entertaining when someone complains that the silver studio week they deposited for exchange last week isn't pulling the platinum Hawaiian 2 bedroom ocean front week for next month like their salesman told them it would.

 

[icydog]

On July 31st I sent an email to my Marriott Rep. At that time I told him I was very upset with the impending point system.. I told him that as an owner of developer weeks, as well as weeks I bought resale, I am very concerned about the new point system and its effect on me and my properties. I told him when I bought Marriott I assumed it would be an equitable system, sort of like the way DVC treats its resale owners. Resale and retail owners are treated exactly the same. I told him I would expect Marriott would follow the DVC example.

The sales rep told me:

That the whole point thing is top secret. He also said the program will be flexible and not mandatory. He also told me not to stress over this.

His manager said, and I am paraphrasing here:

The only ones who know the way the point system will work is upper management, and they will not be releasing any information since their jobs would be on the line. The program and its workings have not been finalized and therefore anything else speculated is only that, speculation.

Neither the sales rep or the manager allayed my fears. I still don't know how this will affect me as a purchaser of resold Marriott weeks.
I did not copy the words verbatim from the emails to save them from prosecution, or persecution, by higher-ups in Marriott.

 

[PerryM]

100% average with me....

On July 31st I sent an email to my Marriott Rep. At that time I told him I was very upset with the impending point system.. I told him that as an owner of developer weeks, as well as weeks I bought resale, I am very concerned about the new point system and its effect on me and my properties. I told him when I bought Marriott I assumed it would be an equitable system, sort of like the way DVC treats its resale owners. Resale and retail owners are treated exactly the same. I told him I would expect Marriott would follow the DVC example.

The sales rep told me:

That the whole point thing is top secret. He also said the program will be flexible and not mandatory. He also told me not to stress over this.

His manager said, and I am paraphrasing here:

The only ones who know the way the point system will work is upper management, and they will not be releasing any information since their jobs would be on the line. The program and its workings have not been finalized and therefore anything else speculated is only that, speculation.

Neither the sales rep or the manager allayed my fears. I still don't know how this will affect me as a purchaser of resold Marriott weeks.
I did not copy the words verbatim from the emails to save them from prosecution, or persecution, by higher-ups in Marriott.

That may be but in the last 5 Marriott sales presentations ALL 5 reps said that resale owners would be screwed. I don't think they know if existing resale owners would be screwed but definitely resale owners after the release would be screwed.

That's a 100% average on the topic of resale owners getting screwed.

So details are being released to the salesreps who then use them as weapons to frighten folks who dare think buying a Marriott from a Marriott owner.

Has anyone ever been told that new resale owners will benefit from the new exchange system? I've not heard that from anyone.