Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[5infam]

I think the best prime weeks will be given to the high point holders, so you will be left with shoulder weeks or other worse weeks. I don't think it can STOP you from getting A week, it STOPS you from getting THE week you'd like...

Thanks for this, but do we know this for sure, or is this speculation? What I mean is that if all weeks, 1 to 50 are sold out - how is it legal for Marriott to then allow new points owners the ability to book any weeks on the property? As soon as they allow 1 week, or 1 day for that matter to go to a points owner, without a weeks owner depositing it - haven't they broken the law and my existing contract? This is the point I am looking for clarification on. Essentially, starting now they should not be able to sell points at my resort, or allow a points owner to stay there, unless an existing weeks owner deposits their week for points - then essentially it becomes a "trade" as we are used to - but for the points owner, it will look like a reservation. Right?

 

[m61376]

There is one big difference- before only your season owners could book the week. Now you are competing with lots of other owners who may be combining points for a premium week.

 

[Numismatist]

Thanks for this, but do we know this for sure, or is this speculation? What I mean is that if all weeks, 1 to 50 are sold out - how is it legal for Marriott to then allow new points owners the ability to book any weeks on the property? As soon as they allow 1 week, or 1 day for that matter to go to a points owner, without a weeks owner depositing it - haven't they broken the law and my existing contract? This is the point I am looking for clarification on. Essentially, starting now they should not be able to sell points at my resort, or allow a points owner to stay there, unless an existing weeks owner deposits them - then essentially it becomes a "trade" as we are used to - but for the points owner, it will look like a reservation. Right?

Speculation: If you give up your deeded week for points to go somewhere else...you may have booked a bum week to give up for points, but now Marriott owns it, so they can change it to a good week and ONLY give that week to point holders. You don't care because you gave up your week to go somewhere else. Through this process though, good weeks will be available to point holders and bum weeks to non-point holders. Wouldn't this be possible/likely?

 

[gmarine]

Why would I do that? They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them. I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway). If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there. I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself. I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.

Again...give me yours!!!

By mentioning the Getaways I was simply trying to show you that you can get an off season week cheaper than $250 per night. You said off season and off season weeks are available as Getaways for $500 or so. Currently Thanksgiving week isnt available but I'm sure you could rent the entire week in a two bedroom from a private party for less than $1000.

 

[5infam]

There is one big difference- before only your season owners could book the week. Now you are competing with lots of other owners who may be combining points for a premium week.

Assuming you were answering my question...I am not sure that is the case. Premium members can book 13 months out etc., but again, doesn't the week they book have to come from a weeks owner, if the resort is sold out already? If the resort is not sold out, then yes, they can jump in and reserve on Marriott's owned weeks, which can be whatever Marriott wants to give them during my season, which is what Marriott owns - or better put - whatever Marriott did not sell prior to the conversion. But since my resort is sold out, how is this legal/possible?

 

[mjbaran]

I need help with this question...As I read through this, it appears that a lot of folks are concerned that the current weeks booking at our resort will become harder to get through competition. The thought being that anyone with enough points can put in their request and now they compete with me in reserving my week.........
Frank

Just got off the phone with a Marriott about this exact point. She stated that week owners are only competing with other week owners at your home resort. This gets back to the separate buckets of inventory idea. Unsold inventory and owners converting to points create the points bucket. Owners who keep their weeks create the weeks bucket. Both compete within their own bucket.

On a related concept I asked about weeks owners depositing into II (as we can do now) and the ability of Marriott to siphon out these deposited weeks or replace high value weeks with less desirable weeks. The rep stated this was not possible since they are separate inventories (bucket concept again). However, when I pressed the rep to reference the applicable program documentation or real-estate law to support her answer, she could not!

 

[SueDonJ]

Both of my resorts are sold out. there is no "excess inventory" for Marriott to now no longer dump into Interval. The only way to exchange for one of my resorts is if owners give up their weeks for Reward points at which time Marriott gains control of the week as they always have or I give that week to Interval for a exchange using a "request first" option which I always do so I don't see why everyone is suddenly concerned that all of these new points users will be able to grab the prime weeks that we have been trading for in the past. Very much overblown IMHO. Even Marriott is not guaranteeing that they can get these weeks for their points people (thus the wait list concept).

Any timeshare system which is not based on a fixed week/fixed unit basis must include a "subject to availability" condition in its governing docs, because any floating interval/unit system can potentially result in any owner not getting the week/unit he most desires.

With respect to a sold-out resort - in addition to the MRP-exchanged weeks (or weeks given to Marriott in the Rental Program) that Marriott currently has access to in the Weeks system, all of the weeks from owners at your resort who enroll in the Points system will be Marriott inventory. Of course any designated resort owners (Weeks or Enrolled Points) can reserve their own weeks at the 13- or 12-mo marks as they currently do, but they will be in competition with the entire pool of Points system owners. Marriott will have to satisfy the inventory controls (as they're stipulated in all existing contracts) as far as what percentage of that resort's owners are Weeks/Enrolled Points/Club Points, but first-come-first-served will definitely become a much more important reservation requirement.

 

[5infam]

Speculation: If you give up your deeded week for points to go somewhere else...you may have booked a bum week to give up for points, but now Marriott owns it, so they can change it to a good week and ONLY give that week to point holders. You don't care because you gave up your week to go somewhere else. Through this process though, good weeks will be available to point holders and bum weeks to non-point holders. Wouldn't this be possible/likely?

Now that makes some sense!! If Marriott does not make me book a week first, then convert that week to points - then you are 100% correct. Marriott could then take any week from 1 to 50 and fill a request from a points owner.

My first impression is "that is not so bad, and although not really fair, something I could deal with). However, as I write this, I am thinking it could be really bad!! Here is the concern, although I am not sure when you can convert your week to points so maybe it is not a concern at all - but here goes. Let's say I want a 4th of July week (which I usually do). I have to wait for 1 year from that date to book on line and secure my week. I have never had a problem doing this in Maui...maybe not always the check in day I want, but I always get something. Now, if Marriott allows me to trade in for points for next year, any earlier than what I can book for next year; then I, as a weeks only person, am screwed.

Does anyone know exactly when I can trade me week in for points? Is it on January 1st of my use year, or is it sometime before hand?

 

[Stefa]

Any timeshare system which is not based on a fixed week/fixed unit basis must include a "subject to availability" condition in its governing docs, because any floating interval/unit system can potentially result in any owner not getting the week/unit he most desires.

With respect to a sold-out resort - in addition to the MRP-exchanged weeks (or weeks given to Marriott in the Rental Program) that Marriott currently has access to in the Weeks system, all of the weeks from owners at your resort who enroll in the Points system will be Marriott inventory. Of course any designated resort owners (Weeks or Enrolled Points) can reserve their own weeks at the 13- or 12-mo marks as they currently do, but they will be in competition with the entire pool of Points system owners. Marriott will have to satisfy the inventory controls (as they're stipulated in all existing contracts) as far as what percentage of that resort's owners are Weeks/Enrolled Points/Club Points, but first-come-first-served will definitely become a much more important reservation requirement.

So are you saying that if an owner at a sold out resort enrolls in the points program their week becomes part of the points pool even if they don't elect to exchange for points in any given year?

 

[wsrobinson]

By mentioning the Getaways I was simply trying to show you that you can get an off season week cheaper than $250 per night. You said off season and off season weeks are available as Getaways for $500 or so. Currently Thanksgiving week isnt available but I'm sure you could rent the entire week in a two bedroom from a private party for less than $1000.

I understand completely. I was just making a point that the 800 vacation club points do have value. It was a simple example and one I had handy as I was just looking at the possibilities. I wasn't necessarily saying I couldn't make plans a different/better/cheaper way. Yes, the Thanksgiving week is available thru Redweek for $1000 (and could probably be had for less). However, a week is a looooong time with family (the points allow for the all powerful OUT - as in so sorry I only booked 4 days but it was so nice to see you).

 

[5infam]

Just got off the phone with a Marriott about this exact point. She stated that week owners are only competing with other week owners at your home resort. This gets back to the separate buckets of inventory idea. Unsold inventory and owners converting to points create the points bucket. Owners who keep their weeks create the weeks bucket. Both compete within their own bucket.

On a related concept I asked about weeks owners depositing into II (as we can do now) and the ability of Marriott to siphon out these deposited weeks or replace high value weeks with less desirable weeks. The rep stated this was not possible since they are separate inventories (bucket concept again). However, when I pressed the rep to reference the applicable program documentation or real-estate law to support her answer, she could not!

Thanks for this!! If this is true and in writing, then I do not think I would join the points program, and would encourage others at sold out resorts to not join as well. Although, we don't know this until we can see it in writing somewhere, so that is the dilemma.

 

[5infam]

Any timeshare system which is not based on a fixed week/fixed unit basis must include a "subject to availability" condition in its governing docs, because any floating interval/unit system can potentially result in any owner not getting the week/unit he most desires.

With respect to a sold-out resort - in addition to the MRP-exchanged weeks (or weeks given to Marriott in the Rental Program) that Marriott currently has access to in the Weeks system, all of the weeks from owners at your resort who enroll in the Points system will be Marriott inventory. Of course any designated resort owners (Weeks or Enrolled Points) can reserve their own weeks at the 13- or 12-mo marks as they currently do, but they will be in competition with the entire pool of Points system owners. Marriott will have to satisfy the inventory controls (as they're stipulated in all existing contracts) as far as what percentage of that resort's owners are Weeks/Enrolled Points/Club Points, but first-come-first-served will definitely become a much more important reservation requirement.

Interesting point, and are you sure? The reason I ask that is because there have been a few folks here that support the points program - which is great if it works for them (trying to figure out if it works for me or not). I have seen them post "that nothing changes if you join the points program if you want to use your existing week as you do now; and that the points option is just that, an additional option which provides more flexibility!" So, what you are saying Sue is that they are incorrect in their statements. If I join the points program, my deeded week then gets thrown into the Marriott points pool and I then can book my week as a week without using points, but I have now opened my week up to every points user in the system. Is that what you are saying?

 

[banquopack]

Thanks for this!! If this is true and in writing, then I do not think I would join the points program, and would encourage others at sold out resorts to not join as well. Although, we don't know this until we can see it in writing somewhere, so that is the dilemma.

Here's the issue for you and I - Maui isn't sold out.

 

[wa.mama]

Does anyone know exactly when I can trade me week in for points? Is it on January 1st of my use year, or is it sometime before hand?

Marriott rep said the deadline for converting to destination points was 3 months prior to the year of usage of the week in question. I did not ask about how much in advance you could convert. This was another negative for me, as we have fixed week 51 and that would require me to plan 15 months in advance which I rarely do.

 

[5infam]

Last time I was there, 2008, I inquired as to the price of what I owned and bought at resale...which is a 1bdr, mtn/grdn view. I was told by the guide that they were all sold out, and they were only selling a few island views - or of course, the 2 new towers. Now, it would not surprise me to find out that a guide had fibbed - but the sheet she showed me had prices and what was available at that time. There were also a few resale deals I think, but owners still own those until sold, not Marriott.

Is there a way to find out for sure exactly what inventory they had left prior to conversion?

 

[banquopack]

Last time I was there, 2008, I inquired as to the price of what I owned and bought at resale...which is a 1bdr, mtn/grdn view. I was told by the guide that they were all sold out, and they were only selling a few island views - or of course, the 2 new towers. Now, it would not surprise me to find out that a guide had fibbed - but the sheet she showed me had prices and what was available at that time. There were also a few resale deals I think, but owners still own those until sold, not Marriott.

Is there a way to find out for sure exactly what inventory they had left prior to conversion?

Not sure, but I'm basing my info on the reply for the resale department - on Monday they told me that Maui is not a sold out resort and as such would not take my 2br lock off unit as a listing.

Also, they list it in their disclosure document as having 11-20 units available.

 

[5infam]

Not sure, but I'm basing my info on the reply for the resale department - on Monday they told me that Maui is not a sold out resort and as such would not take my 2br lock off unit as a listing.

Also, they list it in their disclosure document as having 11-20 units available.

Hmmm - Maybe it is just 2bdrm's, but maybe not. Sounds like I am in trouble on this one. I will e-mail my guide in Maui and ask her what they had in inventory prior to the switch - assuming she will still talk to me (they tend to get a little snooty with us resale purchasers - or at least that has been my experience). I am also talking to a phone sales rep now and trying to get an answer on when you can actually turn your week into points...I seem to know more than the guy from Marriott - very scary!!!

 

[scrapngen]

...I seem to know more than the guy from Marriott - very scary!!!

I suspect that would be because the training probably focused more on how to sell this and the new points and how much flexibility this provides rather than how the details actually impact/apply to current owners...:rofl:

 

[SueDonJ]

So are you saying that if an owner at a sold out resort enrolls in the points program their week becomes part of the points pool even if they don't elect to exchange for points in any given year?

That's how I'm thinking it will work because an owner who enrolls into the Points system does not have to declare his/her usage option until s/he calls in to make a reservation. So yes, I think all Points inventory, whether it's from existing Developer inventory, Weeks inventory exchanged for MRP, Weeks inventory given to the Rental Program, Enrolled Points or Club Points, will be available to all Points owners on a first-come-first-serve basis. Of course Marriott will have to satisfy all of the contractual stipulations for 13- and 12-mo inventory controls as well as Weeks/Points percentages of owners, but I think the separation of inventory will be done as reservations are made and not prior to the reservation windows.

So if there are 10 available intervals and 5 owners of those intervals did not enroll in Points, those 5 owners will be guaranteed a week in their season if they follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures of the Weeks system - no Points owner can reserve those 5 Weeks intervals. But it doesn't matter that the 5 remaining available intervals are owned by Enrolled Points owners who have the ability to book the intervals as weeks under the Weeks system - those owners do not have a Weeks reservation priority over any other Points owner and will be subject to the first-come-first-serve basis.

I could be wrong, but I'm basing this on the things that were discussed in that speculation thread and the little bit of contract language that I've reviewed.

 

[SueDonJ]

Interesting point, and are you sure? The reason I ask that is because there have been a few folks here that support the points program - which is great if it works for them (trying to figure out if it works for me or not). I have seen them post "that nothing changes if you join the points program if you want to use your existing week as you do now; and that the points option is just that, an additional option which provides more flexibility!" So, what you are saying Sue is that they are incorrect in their statements. If I join the points program, my deeded week then gets thrown into the Marriott points pool and I then can book my week as a week without using points, but I have now opened my week up to every points user in the system. Is that what you are saying?

I think so, but like I said I'm not sure. It's one of the things I'm trying to figure out before I make the commitment.

It is true that if you enroll in Points then the option to reserve at your home resort doesn't change - you will still have the deeded right to reserve the interval on your existing Weeks deed. But that right is "subject to availability" and it appears that because Enrolled Weeks owners do not have a reservation priority for their home resort use over Enrolled Points owners of other resorts or Club Points owners, then their Enrolled Weeks intervals will be spread across all Points owners according to their tiered Reservation Procedures, and "subject to availability" will become a much larger factor at all resorts where intervals are held by any Points owners.

I can't find anything that says Marriott must hold back Weeks inventory for ALL Weeks owners including Enrolled Points owners until they've declared their usage intention for a particular year. The Weeks owners who do not enroll are protected by their contracts from Marriott releasing their inventory to Points owners prior to whatever point Marriott can pick up intervals (at most resorts, that mark is 75 days prior to check-in.) I don't see anything in the Enrolled Points contracts, so far, that leads me to believe they have the same protections; I think that by signing the contract for Enrollment, they're accepting the terms of Points inventory. I think. I hope one of the lawyers here can tell me where I'm wrong, or that Marriott will answer the question definitively.

 

[hipslo]

That's how I'm thinking it will work because an owner who enrolls into the Points system does not have to declare his/her usage option until s/he calls in to make a reservation. So yes, I think all Points inventory, whether it's from existing Developer inventory, Weeks inventory exchanged for MRP, Weeks inventory given to the Rental Program, Enrolled Points or Club Points, will be available to all Points owners on a first-come-first-serve basis. Of course Marriott will have to satisfy all of the contractual stipulations for 13- and 12-mo inventory controls as well as Weeks/Points percentages of owners, but I think the separation of inventory will be done as reservations are made and not prior to the reservation windows.

So if there are 10 available intervals and 5 owners of those intervals did not enroll in Points, those 5 owners will be guaranteed a week in their season if they follow the stipulated Reservation Procedures of the Weeks system - no Points owner can reserve those 5 Weeks intervals. But it doesn't matter that the 5 remaining available intervals are owned by Enrolled Points owners who have the ability to book the intervals as weeks under the Weeks system - those owners do not have a Weeks reservation priority over any other Points owner and will be subject to the first-come-first-serve basis.

I could be wrong, but I'm basing this on the things that were discussed in that speculation thread and the little bit of contract language that I've reviewed.

I believe that on the webiste, in one of the FAQs, it states that inventory available to points owners comes from three places (I am summarizing, not quoting directly, but you can check the language):

(i) weeks owners who convert to MRP;
(ii) deposits into II (exactly which deposits still seems somewhat unclear); and
(iii) units owned by weeks owners who enroll in points AND ELECT TO CONVERT THEIR WEEK TO POINTS FOR THE YEAR AT ISSUE.

So, simpy by virtue of enrolling in points, I do not believe that your week becomes part of the points bucket. Presumably, that also means that when you call to reserve a week at your home resort, without using points, you are competing with other weeks owners, both those who have not enrolled, and those who have enrolled but who havent elected points for the year at issue, for whatever weeks are allocated to the "weeks" bucket of inventory.

 

[5infam]

OK, here is what the Marriott guy said on the phone, after going to talk to a supervisor.

You can exchange your week for points, 3 months in advance of the use year. In our case, our use year is January 1 through Dec. 31. So let's say I want points for my 2012 week. The earliest I can make that request is October 1st, 2011. I can not use those points until 2012. Also, let's say I have points in my account, and bank them, or whatever...I can only reserve 12 months in advance, or 13 months if you have priority. However, they were very clear that the inventory can only come from Marriott owned weeks that they turned into points; or from owners that exchange their week for points or MR points. If I join the Club, and I want to exchange my week for another week, then my week does not go into the points bucket, but goes into the II bucket, just as if I was not part of the club at all. The only difference is that my fees are paid by the Club Dues and I do not have to have a separate II account. If I exchange outside of Marriott, then I pay the Club Dues and the II exchange fee - not a good deal for me.

So if this guy was right (and by the way, I asked to see this in writing and his head almost exploded as he was all over the place, so take it for what it is worth); then as a weeks owner, I am really only threatened by other weeks owners who trade in for points, and/or any weeks that Marriott may still own at my property. So I guess there is no way for me to tell how many people convert to points and what would be better for me. If more convert to points, then I could be screwed on the hot weeks if I do not convert. If I do convert, then I could be screwed by having to buy more points just to get the week I get now, pay more in maintenance, and run the risk that not that many owners convert and I am in the wrong bucket and can't get what I want anyway.

This really sucks!!! I almost wish they forced our hand (I know it would be illegal) and just converted us all to points and that would be the end of it. At least then I would be certain that I would be pissed off, but would understand the program and everyone would play with the same rules - now I don't know how to think or which way is best.

I will say this - if I walked into a Marriott presentation today, and they tried to sell me this points jazz - I would walk out (with my gift in hand) as quickly as possible!! Not having a resort priority is selling impossible dreams to the unknowing masses - and is not what I expected from Marriott. With so many people in the system, and so many weeks owners not part of the system (at least from day 1) - there is no way they could justify to me that I would always be able to get into Maui, where I own now and bought to stay there. I would laugh at the sales rep that tried to pitch that nonsense. This open resort architecture they are selling is going to turn the majority of new points buyers into the Platinum Weeks Owners at NCV looking for a summer week...very unhappy owners!!

 

[5infam]

I suspect that would be because the training probably focused more on how to sell this and the new points and how much flexibility this provides rather than how the details actually impact/apply to current owners...:rofl:

Too funny!! You are probably right. He was all about pitching me and how great it was, until I mentioned that I would only get 3,100 points to exchange my week, and it would take 3,550 to get the summer week I get now. To that he said "yeah, that sucks for a lot of weeks owners". That is an exact quote; so apparently he has heard that one a lot already and we are in day 3 of the "soft launch".

 

[hipslo]

I believe that on the webiste, in one of the FAQs, it states that inventory available to points owners comes from three places (I am summarizing, not quoting directly, but you can check the language):

(i) weeks owners who convert to MRP;
(ii) deposits into II (exactly which deposits still seems somewhat unclear); and
(iii) units owned by weeks owners who enroll in points AND ELECT TO CONVERT THEIR WEEK TO POINTS FOR THE YEAR AT ISSUE.

So, simpy by virtue of enrolling in points, I do not believe that your week becomes part of the points bucket. Presumably, that also means that when you call to reserve a week at your home resort, without using points, you are competing with other weeks owners, both those who have not enrolled, and those who have enrolled but who havent elected points for the year at issue, for whatever weeks are allocated to the "weeks" bucket of inventory.

Here is the language from the FAQ on the mvci webpage for the new system (highlighting is mine):


Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?

Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.

 

[5infam]

Here is the language from the FAQ on the mvci webpage for the new system (highlighting is mine):


Where will the inventory come from to fulfill vacation reservations within the Marriott Vacation Club Collection?

Inventory throughout the Marriott Vacation Club Collection will be available for reservations for Enrolled Owners via other Marriott Vacation Club Owners who enroll their weeks and elect Vacation Club Points, and non-enrolled Owners who trade their usage for Marriott Rewards points or exchange their week through membership in Interval International.

It's that last line that scares the crap out of me - and is totally unclear. I have spoken to 3 Marriott reps, and all have said that II deposits are in a seperate bucket. That is, until I point out this language in the FAQ, then they say the FAQ is wrong and it is still a seperate bucket. Who knows, we need written clarification on that item and it is a huge point for me. This is how Marriott can destroy any chance for me to get back into my home resort, if I do not join. If they can do this, then I think I would be forced to join, if I want to exchange back in.