Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[m61376]

According to John this is a benefit of a points program. I guess if you are buying points staring today you are already buying the # of points you need to go where you want and are not buying the average of the "old seasons". This is why is is hard for us to wrap our hands around this concept. Unless we want to buy the extra few hundred points need to get what you want in the season size unit you already own we might be better off sticking with what we have. I'm undecided. I might join for the flexibility, take advantage of the lower fee, and play the trade down in size or season game occasionally if that fits my needs for a certain year.

Just curious...If Marriott had made it so that weeks owners who enroll had to book their week first then give it up for a # of points based on the week reserverd (so now you are not getting the average points for the season) and some are getting more points than others for their same resort/season (even though they paid the same for their unit and pay the same maintenance fee), ala redweek, would we have more people happy about the new program or still have people complaining that they are getting ripped off. In this senario we would still have everyone competing to reserve the best weeks just to trade or convert to points, which is brings us back to what his post started with.

Except that, while I generally respect his opinions, John's logic is flawed here. He has mistakenly assumed that Marriott fairly allotted the average value for each season to owners. There may be some cases where this is so, but there are MANY instances where Marirott allotted less points than required to book ANY week in the owned season. There is no way to argue that that us equitable.

 

[banquopack]

Banking points, wait lists, and renting

Has anybody talked to a person about banking/borrowing? That's one of the few values I see with the new system for me. But this was troubling:

"Borrowed Exchange Points may be used for a wait list reservation as set forth in these Exchange Procedures."

So you only get a wait list reservation? And what the heck is that?!

(24)
creating special Guest of Member programs (which may include fees) where a Member’s Guest(s) may only occupy certain Accommodations or Use Periods while the Member is not in residence;

That may make it hard to rent.

(32)
limiting the characteristics of, and creating restrictions on, the use of transferred Exchange Points within various reservation windows;

And you can transfer points in any amount and to whomever, but will they be able to use them?

 

[m61376]

Oh yea. I spoke with a rep, and a "point specialist," yesterday, and they both suggested that I buy more points.

Very nice........I buy 2 weeks directly from Marriott, and now can not exchange back in to either of them unless I pay an additional $9,200, and $400 more in maintenance fees.

BTW, they weren't even willing to allow me to purchase just the number of points that I would need to exchange back into my resorts. Nope, minimum of 1000 points.

They tried to convince me how much better off I'd be in the new program despite not being able to book a single week in the Platinum season. They also tried to convince me that an OS and an OV room must have been the same value, then, even though OS cost several thousand more initially AND Marriott itself charges more for an OS versus an OV week. At the end of the discussion she finally admitted that she had no idea why OS and OV were assigned the same value and would pass along my complaint.

 

[thinze3]

They shouldn't.....Just as I pay in the old system to exchange my week, or lock-off my week, or exchange my week for points, on a per week basis, Marriott should charge on a per week basis for any of the above services not covered by the yearly fee.

Based on your analogy, why should I pay in points reduction to my week for all the above usage possibilities, if I'm only going to exchange my week into another week for a 7 day interval ?

Trust me, I understand. I believe Marriott simply decided that an all inclusive program would be an easier sell.

Also, it could be a simple way to get US to buy more points as well.

 

[DanCali]

Your financial analysis is directionally correct. But you are inappropriately mixing depreciation and opportunity cost.

Instead, you should use a loan amortization model. You can use a 10 year loan paid monthly or annually. That is best way to compare monthly or annual costs of the upfront fee of $2000.

To convert that into a monthly amount, you use a 10 year loan @ 5% interest. Your monthly payment on such a loan would be: $21.21/month or $254.56/year. That's a lot less than the $300 you come up with.

The reason this works is that instead of paying an upfront fee, you are financing it over the 10 year period. At the end of the period the loan is fully amortized and your terminal value of the asset is zero. You should probably use a rate higher than 5% because you can't get a consumer loan easily for that low of a rate.

To use opportunity cost, you have to have compare one CAGR (compound annual growth rate) and compare it to an alternative investment with a different CAGR. If you normally invest into projects with 8% CAGR, then if you make an alternate investment at 3% CAGR, your opportunity cost is 5%.

You are corect about the time value of money, but the difference between 254 and 300 is not that big... and it keeps things a lot simpler. Actually, with annual payments at a 5% rate you get $259 (pmt(5%,10, 2000))

The 5% opportunity cost assumes no loan. It assumes that I'm taking the money from elsewhere where I'd be getting 5% a year (say 70% bonds, 30% stocks). In most economic times, you can get 5% just from a 5 year CD... If I used a higher rate, like you suggest, I will get closer to my $300 approximation anyway. To this, you need to add the $200 annual fee and $200 skimming (for 2 unis).

So the analysis more than "directionally correct"... it's a pretty good approximation too

 

[wsrobinson]

Has anybody talked to a person about banking/borrowing? That's one of the few values I see with the new system for me. But this was troubling:

"Borrowed Exchange Points may be used for a wait list reservation as set forth in these Exchange Procedures."

So you only get a wait list reservation? And what the heck is that?!

(24)
creating special Guest of Member programs (which may include fees) where a Member’s Guest(s) may only occupy certain Accommodations or Use Periods while the Member is not in residence;

That may make it hard to rent.

(32)
limiting the characteristics of, and creating restrictions on, the use of transferred Exchange Points within various reservation windows;

And you can transfer points in any amount and to whomever, but will they be able to use them?

The wait lists occur if there is no availability for your specified destination (or not enough platinum weeks join).

 

[timeos2]

The mighty fall. Not too big to fail

Except that, while I generally respect his opinions, John's logic is flawed here. He has mistakenly assumed that Marriott fairly allotted the average value for each season to owners. There may be some cases where this is so, but there are MANY instances where Marirott allotted less points than required to book ANY week in the owned season. There is no way to argue that that us equitable.

I will freely admit that I assume Marriott would be upfront if they planned to take value from the trade system by requiring more to reserve than they give to deposit. I am basing my original belief on the differences being tied to the effect of averaging over all weeks/owners rather than a "skim" on the fact that in every other points system the same thing appears to occur on the surface. With DRI for example at a Fl resort the owners get 7000 points for the highest value week. Yet someone reserving in pays 8500 for at least some of those same weeks. In over a decade of actually operating that system the owners getting the 7000 points have NOT found themselves unable to get their own weeks as requested nor have they had problems trading out and getting fair value in return. The so called "skim" just isn't there - the points are in fact being spread out fairly and fully.

So I go in assuming Marriott, a company that has traditionally been held in high regard for ethics, fairness and owner orientation, would at least be as open and fair as companies with far less glowing reputations. I may have been wrong in that assumption - if so it is extremely disappointing. But I will have to say that anecdotal evidence is piling up that the new points system may in fact take overhead out by a difference in assigned vs required points for trade. If so that is yet another (and HUGE) negative to consider when evaluating does the system make sense for you to buy into or not.

I am really disappointed in Marriott even if they AREN'T skimming the game - the simple appearance that they might be is highly damaging to a once sparkling organizational image. A true tactical blunder at best and a killer mistake at worst.

 

[DanCali]

Don't the 800 points they give you initially have some value? As such, it throws your equation off. I can make a decent case they're worth an easy 1K based on what I've seen. I plan on using mine to book a 4-5 night stay off-season at Manor Club. At $250/night, that's $1000 or $1250 depending on nights. I actually have points left over as it's 100 pts/night.

If so, tell Marriott to knock off $1000 from the initiation fee and forget the 800 points and see what they say... Will they knock off $200 for the 800 points?

Besides, at the 33 conversion rate it's 26,400 points - which is 1 night in nice hotel... On average, it's probably worth about $300.

 

[wsrobinson]

What an offer!!!

If so, tell Marriott to knock off $1000 from the initiation fee and forget the 800 points and see what they say... Will they knock off $200 for the 800 points?

Besides, at the 33 conversion rate it's 26,400 points - which is 1 night in nice hotel... On average, it's probably worth about $300.

Even a modest calculation would put the value at $6-700 if you realistically look at what the 800 points will get you and what you pay to reserve the same room with CASH. They are giving it to you. If you don't want yours please donate them to ME! That offer stands to anyone. If you decide to join and don't want your measly 800 point (that have no value at all) please donate them to me.

 

[DanCali]

Even a modest calculation would put the value at $6-700 if you realistically look at what the 800 points will get you and what you pay to reserve the same room with CASH. They are giving it to you. If you don't want yours please donate them to ME! That offer stands to anyone. If you decide to join and don't want your measly 800 point (that have no value at all) please donate them to me.

Well, then get Marriott to knock off $600 and ee what they say they are worth...

 

[ArtsieAng]

They tried to convince me how much better off I'd be in the new program despite not being able to book a single week in the Platinum season. They also tried to convince me that an OS and an OV room must have been the same value, then, even though OS cost several thousand more initially AND Marriott itself charges more for an OS versus an OV week. At the end of the discussion she finally admitted that she had no idea why OS and OV were assigned the same value and would pass along my complaint.

Seems that you and I have had similar conversations with Marriott yesterday. Amazing isn't it? Sigh.

 

[wsrobinson]

Well, then get Marriott to knock off $600 and ee what they say they are worth...

Why would I do that? They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them. I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway). If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there. I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself. I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.

Again...give me yours!!!

 

[tombo]

They shouldn't.....Just as I pay in the old system to exchange my week, or lock-off my week, or exchange my week for points, on a per week basis, Marriott should charge on a per week basis for any of the above services not covered by the yearly fee.

Based on your analogy, why should I pay in points reduction to my week for all the above usage possibilities, if I'm only going to exchange my week into another week for a 7 day interval ?

I agree with you, they shouldn't charge one penny or point to exchange like for like. I will agree that a fee for lock-offs and shorter stays is acceptable since more Housekeeping expenses, mor check-in check-out expenses, etc are involved, but week for week should be free.

But Thinze assuming that you are right and marriott needs extra fees to cover their expenses (that is a bunch if crap but for argument's sake we will assume it to be true). If they must get fees to cover their expenses, first be upfront about it like II and everyone else and simply tell everyone how much they are charging to exchange IN ADDITION to what they already charge you annually to be a member (annual membership fees combined with MF's should cover all week for week exchange expenses).

If greedy Marriott needs the money, charge us DOLLARS to exchange, NOT POINTS! If my week is a 5000 point week and I want to exchange for a 5000 point like week elsewhere or trade back into my home resort next year I can't because they only give me 4500 points (for example) when I deposit my week. It will cost me $9000 to purchase 1000 points plus additional annual MF's for the new points just to be able to trade into my home resort the following year or into a 5000 point resort elsewhere leaving me 500 leftover points which are almost wortless. I would MUCH rather pay a $175 exchange fee and get MY FULL 5000 POINTS so that I could exchange like for like weeks each year! Of course for Marriott to offer that opton would reduce the need for owners to buy more points. Marriott is only looking to make more money for Marriot at current and future owner's expense.

Marriott could have charged a reasonable exchange fee and been honest and upfront about the expenses involved in exchanging weeks for weeks or for exchanging for shorter stays, lock-offs, etc. Instead they hide it trying to trick everyone into believing it is "free" while stealing points from owners which requires them to buy more points just to be able to exchange like for like each year.


It is pure and simply a rip-off for owners and a profit center for Marriott!

 

[DanCali]

Why would I do that? They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them. I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway). If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there. I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself. I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.

Again...give me yours!!!

I can't "give" you mine becuse (a) I haven't enrolled and (b) even if I were to enroll, I would do that on the very last day. This is options theory 101 - never exercise an (European) option early. It's just like handing in an exam early - you can do better by waiting longer.

As for the 800 points, if they are wrth $700 to you, why don't you offer to buy them from tuggers for $400 and put your money where your mouth is? How much would you BUY them from another tugger, because if you want donations it seems they are worth close to zero to you too...

 

[wsrobinson]

I can't "give" you mine becuse (a) I haven't enrolled and (b) even if I were to enroll, I would do that on the very last day. This is options theory 101 - never exercise an option early. It's just like handing in an exam early - you can do better by waiting longer.

As for the 800 points, if they are wrth $700 to you, why don't you offer to buy them from tuggers for $400 and put your money where your mouth is? How much would you BUY them from another tugger, because if you want donations it seems they are worth close to zero to you too...

Seems reasonable...$400/800 pt allotment to all comers!

 

[DanCali]

Seems reasonable...$400/800 pt allotment to all comers!

If I convert on Dec 31, I'll take you up on it.

 

[jjking42]

If I want Marriott points I will let someone else convert and then I will buy them on ebay in a few years when they decide the system is too complex too use.

I will keep my platinum week they way it is

1. Use it
2. Rent it
3. Direct exchange with other Marriot owners
4. Trade with SFX ( I would look for SFX to pick up a bunch of marriott owners)
5 trade with my own II account. ( I already have one for my non Marriott weeks)

If I need more flexibility for less than week stays I will use Hgvc or Wyndham points

There are lots of options out there as long as you are willing to stay at non Marriott resorts

Now I need to go buy some more Wyndham points for 1.00 on Ebay

 

[m61376]

They have built in their fees. Everytime you deposit a week into points they skim points off the top which is a fee (or profit whichever you prefer). When you exchange for a lockoff, the sum of the two lockoffs is a much higher point total than the points required to rent the whole 2 bed room week, so they are charging more points for that, so yes there is a lockoff fee. If you use points for daily stays, the sum of the daily points are much higher than the points required for a weeks stay, so they are charging fees for daily stays too. By not specifically charging x$ per lock off or daily stay it can be sold as free to members, but if you compare what your points outlay is for lock-offs and nightly stays versus a week in the same unit, you are paying a hefty fee in additonal points charged by Marriott to get "flexibility".

Marriott is charging you to convert,they will probably start raising annual MF's, they are charging you an annual membership fee, and they skim points every time you deposit and exchange. Marriott is not doing any of the wonderful flexibility options they tout for free, they are charging you each and every time you want to be flexible and use your points to exchange!

Imagining Newport for 3 prime season days, followed by 3 days at this hawaai resort followed by 4 days at another will IMO be just that, imagining. Every person they sell the points to will be assured that getting those things will be easy, but most if not all prime inventory will be reserved for a whole week before those wanting shorter stays ever get a chance at less than 7 day inventory. In the beginning there will probably be access to less than 7 day stays at prime resorts during prime seasons, but after they sell and convert a ton of people to points the competition will be so intense that getting any prime days/weeks will be hard. In fact I bet that it will be much harder to get prime weeks/locations than before points because Marriott will be able to sell those shoulder weeks as points allowing more people to compete for the prime limited inventory, because points is points no matter where they come from.

Well said- except for one point- at least in the few cases I checked, the sum of the daily fees=weekly fees. In reality, IF they didn't skim off the top and assigned fairer point values, but charged 5-7% more in fees for daily versus week reservations, I could understand the logic due to increased costs and possibly waste. However, in many cases they are making 15% or so on every transaction- so immediately they have devalued every owner's weeks.

 

[rsackett]

Why would I do that? They are giving them to me and I am getting WORTH from them. I already plan to use them to stay at Manor CLub during Thanksgiving week (and no you cannot get a d*** getaway). If you look on Marriott's reservation system it is $250/night to stay there. I will stay 4 nights (the Fri-Sat nights are $300 but let's keep it simple) and get $1000 in VALUE to myself. I don't NEED MArriot to knock money of the enrollment fee to realize value.

Again...give me yours!!!

I can't "give" you mine becuse (a) I haven't enrolled and (b) even if I were to enroll, I would do that on the very last day. This is options theory 101 - never exercise an (European) option early. It's just like handing in an exam early - you can do better by waiting longer.

As for the 800 points, if they are wrth $700 to you, why don't you offer to buy them from tuggers for $400 and put your money where your mouth is? How much would you BUY them from another tugger, because if you want donations it seems they are worth close to zero to you too...

Seems reasonable...$400/800 pt allotment to all comers!

All this brings up a good point. What is a Point worth? Is it the $0.40 that marriott will charge in maint fees? Is it twice maint fees like DVC points go for? What do you guys think?

Ray

 

[5infam]

I need help with this question...As I read through this, it appears that a lot of folks are concerned that the current weeks booking at our resort will become harder to get through competition. The thought being that anyone with enough points can put in their request and now they compete with me in reserving my week. However, I own in Maui (the converted hotel part), and I believe that all of the units were sold out to weeks owners. Therefore, there should be no way that a points owner could book a week, unless a weeks owner turned their time in for points. Then it becomes the same as now if a weeks owner books a prime week, then send it to II. Am I mistaken in that assumption? If I am not correct, then isn't this illegal; meaning that the laws in the states would prevent any company from selling more time than they actually have.

Also, if a weeks owner does turn their week in for points, what week are they turning in? I have weeks 1 to 50 available to me, so would I have to book my week first then trade in for points? I know I will only get 3,100 points irregardless of what week I book (which is crap and the big downside for me), but I am trying to get my hands around this.

Thanks!!

Frank

 

[winger]

...

The issue for all of us going forward is not what we used to be able to do but what is the best option going forward. Do you stay where you are with II and the old system or spend the dollars to get in the new program.

If I thought II would have the same opportunities it had before, I would do nothing. I don't think they will and therefore the best deals available for THE WAY I USE TIMESHARES will probably be the Sunday through Thursday opportunities and off season weeks in new program.

The key question is HOW DO YOU USE TIMESHARE. I don't need the presidents day week at Ocean Pointe. January is fine . Off seasons are OK. Each of us has an entirely different situation.

exactly how I am approaching this

...
... I will join because ... Also I think I can access some newer resorts for a few days from time to time which I have not been able to get through II.

You better rethink this.... so say you own 2 weeks, paying MF's of say $2000+/yr. I will exagerate the numbers, but in the future, spanking brand new ritzy resort X costs 3000 pts to stay ri night and Sat night. Are you going to use your two weeks' annual point allotment (with $2000 MF paid) to stay just two nights??? I sure won't be happy even thinking about the unfairness in this.

 

[Numismatist]

I need help with this question...As I read through this, it appears that a lot of folks are concerned that the current weeks booking at our resort will become harder to get through competition. The thought being that anyone with enough points can put in their request and now they compete with me in reserving my week. However, I own in Maui (the converted hotel part), and I believe that all of the units were sold out to weeks owners. Therefore, there should be no way that a points owner could book a week, unless a weeks owner turned their time in for points. Then it becomes the same as now if a weeks owner books a prime week, then send it to II. Am I mistaken in that assumption? If I am not correct, then isn't this illegal; meaning that the laws in the states would prevent any company from selling more time than they actually have.

Also, if a weeks owner does turn their week in for points, what week are they turning in? I have weeks 1 to 50 available to me, so would I have to book my week first then trade in for points? I know I will only get 3,100 points irregardless of what week I book (which is crap and the big downside for me), but I am trying to get my hands around this.

Thanks!!

Frank

I think the best prime weeks will be given to the high point holders, so you will be left with shoulder weeks or other worse weeks. I don't think it can STOP you from getting A week, it STOPS you from getting THE week you'd like...

 

[Y-ASK]

All this brings up a good point. What is a Point worth? Is it the $0.40 that marriott will charge in maint fees? Is it twice maint fees like DVC points go for? What do you guys think?

Ray

I would think that the market will determine that. As with DVC if you're willing to take less, then you can rent for whatever you're willing to accept. Maybe $0.38 will be the going price. That would be good for me . There have been many DVC owners who have complained that other owners are asking too little for their points yet the average rental cost per point remains low in my opinion.

Y-ASK

 

[KathyPet]

Both of my resorts are sold out. there is no "excess inventory" for Marriott to now no longer dump into Interval. The only way to exchange for one of my resorts is if owners give up their weeks for Reward points at which time Marriott gains control of the week as they always have or I give that week to Interval for a exchange using a "request first" option which I always do so I don't see why everyone is suddenly concerned that all of these new points users will be able to grab the prime weeks that we have been trading for in the past. Very much overblown IMHO. Even Marriott is not guaranteeing that they can get these weeks for their points people (thus the wait list concept).

 

[wsrobinson]

All this brings up a good point. What is a Point worth? Is it the $0.40 that marriott will charge in maint fees? Is it twice maint fees like DVC points go for? What do you guys think?

Ray

I think it depends on what you spend them on. Two nights at Grande Ocean, even at the MOD rate is probably about $400/night. You can play games with them and see how to get the most bang for your buck.