Marriott Destination Points...They have done it!!!!!! {Merged}

[dougp26364]

But this is hardly the case. As far as i can tell, nobody is getting the average of their season. Not even Platinum Plus fixed weeks who have an effective season of 1 week.

Everyone is paying a bid-ask spread.

Excellent point. It's hard to say there's no skim when there's a season of 1 week and the points given are less than the points taken for the same week. I wonder how Marriott can explain this minor factoid? It becomes very obvious that the points are only balancing on Marriott's balance sheet when they use those extra points to snag desirable units to rent. Rather than take notes from other successful points system, Marriott seems to be copying RCI's policy of take and rent.

 

[MRMarriott]

The Price of Everything (Read the Book)!

I am still amazed that in the initial reaction everyone is overwhelmingly concerned about the number of points they get for electing and the # of points for prime weeks in their season.

I was worried myself with MountainSide, but the math works. My season ranges from 4450 to 6900. Work out the total number of points and divide and that's the number you get. It seems to be working with each club I check.

So, then you say, you're worried you can't get prime weeks. But no one said that for any given year you couldn't just elect to book under the weeks program. Marriott didn't take the option away.

But wait, you say, now we're competing against the entire world for prime weeks!

Not true. Two different pools are created. One pool is weeks owners, and they can only get weeks from the weeks owners pool. The other pool is points owners, and they can only get weeks from the points owners pool. And at a premium of pts, I might add...

So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.

The 75 points owners compete for 75 weeks, no more, no less, and they have a higher chance of getting premium weeks because other owners are discouraged by the higher price.

Marriott raises the price of premium weeks and everyone is crying foul, but can you honestly tell me that you got the week you wanted every single time you tried? If yes, you're either lying or you're not an owner in Newport Platinum or MountainSide Ski. 100% of owners try for summer in Newport, and 50% get it. Now, with a higher price, vacationers will think hard and decide if it's worth the money - making it easier to book weeks if you're willing to pay. Read the book "The Price of Everything" and you'll see it makes sense.

Another great benefit is staying 5 nights (Sun-Thurs). In some of the scenarios I've worked out, I can use my one week worth of points and get two villas in my season for 5 nights, essentially using a 7 night ownership and getting 10 nights use out of it. That's not a bad deal.

One more thing: Imagine "super prime week owners." Those owners who own Sundance in MountainSide or Christmas in Maui. They paid so much money all they would do is go year after year! Why would they do anything else???

Now Marriott says, "Here's 10,000 points. Have fun!" You think they wouldn't be tempted to get 3 weeks elsewhere or take a couple of cruises? It sounds like a good deal to me. And then suddenly, a Sundance or Christmas week that would NEVER have been available is on the market for those willing to pay. Again, it would NEVER be available in the old system, because there was never anything as enticing for the owners of it.

I think it's naturally to see change happen and think, "how am I getting screwed?" In the end, the only thing that matters is, "will I get the week I want? Will it be easier?"

If it is, then Marriott wins.

 

[davidvel]

Marriott has it covered. If points members book up all prime weeks at your homr resort in your season and you have the worst week at your home resort in your season available for you to reserve, then they have fullfilled their contractual obligation. They can make sure points has access to all prime weeks before those who won't convert and still be honoring their contract if there are ANY in season weeks available to owners.

What contract? The deed and its covenants control.

 

[DanaTom]

Dana Tom - If you sell after joining the points program, the new owner doesn't get access to points unless the buyer pays a hefty fee. And if you sell a resale that is not currently eligible for points (because your purchase closes after June 20), it appears the new owner would also not be eligible for the points program.

Dave,
Is that in the new contract, that the converted share/points are not transferable? If so, they really did another dagger to the resale market. MVC really does then hate the resale account.

 

[tombo]

What contract? The deed and its covenants control.

Excuse me, I meant honoring what you were deeded.

 

[DanCali]

Are you saying that Marriott is not giving the full points value x the # of intervals and then renting the excess point value to benefit them?

Yes, this is exactly what is happening...

 

[bw3]

used to be a Marriott fan

When there's a 500 pound gorilla in the room, it's best not to ignore it.

I was a HUGE Marriott backer. Now that I've seen the plan.....not so much. What can I say, in one stroke of the pen Marriott moved me from supporting them to supporting Perry. If you've followed Perry and my posts, that's not necessarily and easy thing to do. Perry and I have debated various subjects for a long time. This may be the first time we're on the same page.

Doug, I agree. I used to be a Marriott fan. I am practically a lifetime platinum member in the rewards program. And I thought Perry was a bit over the top with negative perspectives. But you are correct, Marriott just went beyond my wildest imagination. A spread for deposit vs reservation, are you kidding me?!?!? Then there is the plan of jacking up maintenance fees based upon points. I am so irate with Marriott, I want to fire them as property manager at all vacation resorts. Let them come begging us to have the resort.

Let me summarize the plan.............MARRIOTT SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MountainGal]

Still attempting to determine whether the 13 month rule for reservations will apply to owners that do not convert to point. I've read some of the documentation provided throughout the posts, but it only addresses owners that convert. I own resale Desert Springs currently and in process of purchasing another. Sure hope the reservation system doesn't change for those not converting to points. Any thoughts on this?

 

[LAX Mom]

Question about resale points..........
I called MVCI today and asked some questions about the new system. One matter they couldn't answer is what happens with Marriott resale points. For example, I buy points from Marriott this coming week and then next fall I need to sell them for some reason. If I sell these points on ebay will the new owner be able to use the points system?

The Marriott rep I spoke with tried to find out what would happen if I wanted to sell my Marriott points. He talked to a couple of supervisors and couldn't get an answer. He said they don't currently have a resale department set up but will consider it in the future. They have considered having a couple of outside agencies they could refer you to, but nothing is in place at this time.

I asked him "Why would anyone consider buying something that they can't sell down the road when their circumstances change?" He agreed that I had a point and that they don't have the answer to this problem yet.

Have any of you figured out what happens when you want to sell the points you purchase from Marriott? Can the new owner use points with all the Marriott benefits?

 

[hipslo]

But wait, you say, now we're competing against the entire world for prime weeks!

Not true. Two different pools are created. One pool is weeks owners, and they can only get weeks from the weeks owners pool. The other pool is points owners, and they can only get weeks from the points owners pool. And at a premium of pts, I might add...

So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.

The 75 points owners compete for 75 weeks, no more, no less, and they have a higher chance of getting premium weeks because other owners are discouraged by the higher price.

Marriott raises the price of premium weeks and everyone is crying foul, but can you honestly tell me that you got the week you wanted every single time you tried? If yes, you're either lying or you're not an owner in Newport Platinum or MountainSide Ski..

In your example, you acknowledge that the 75 points owners have a higher chance at getting the premium weeks, but at the same time you say that weeks owners have not been adversely affected. How do you reconcile those two (inconsistent) statements?

Also, I was told over the phone today that there are NOT two pools, there is only a single pool, though the number of reservations out of that pool available to points is limited. Which means there is no week by week allocation between weeks and points.

By the way, I am an owner (multiple week) at mountainside ski, and have always received the weeks I requested. I have no plans to convert to points, and I doubt that will continue to be the case.

 

[davidvel]

Excuse me, I meant honoring what you were deeded.

thanks tombo, just trying to keep things clear!

I haven't been able to keep up (I'm on vacation not the office..)

But wait, you say, now we're competing against the entire world for prime weeks!

Not true. Two different pools are created. One pool is weeks owners, and they can only get weeks from the weeks owners pool. The other pool is points owners, and they can only get weeks from the points owners pool. And at a premium of pts, I might add...

So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.

Where is is documented that there are separate "pools?" And if there are how are they reserved/allocated? (ie. who get the best weeks?)

 

[mjbaran]

No, it is NOT true.

You will lose a yearly fee ($165 or more) for being in the new point system even if you choose not to exchange.

After speaking with a travel advisor today, it's my understanding the $165 annual fee covers your annual II membership fee, any lockoff fees ($75 each) and any Marriott to Marriott exchange fees. You would only pay an additional exchange fee to II if you exchanged into a non-Marriott property.

So the $165 annual fee would seem to be a good deal if you typically locked off your unit then traded into other Marriott properties through II. Plus you get the 800 points (one time use) to be used in 2011. Yet you maintain the flexibility use the points system in the future if you so choose.

Marriott has purchased all existing unsold inventory to populate the points system. By "enrolling" into the points program, existing owners are not obligated to use the points system. You can continue to reserve your home resort or trade (even up-trade) through II as you do today. Points based inventory and weeks based inventory in II are separate. As long as weeks based owners deposit into II those weeks will be available to other weeks owners and not available to those owning or converting to points.

If you want to stay at your home resort, converting to points has no advantage.. However for $695 you you buy the option to convert in the future if you wish and hedge against a higher enrollment fee in the future. As noted above the annual $165 is essentially a wash. The $695 for multiple weeks is like buying cheap insurance against rising future costs of enrollment and maintains the option of flexibility if your individual usage needs/wants change.

I'm not a proponent of the points system for my individual needs, since I feel Marriott is not providing current owners with the full value for their owned units. But the price of future flexibility is fairy small.

 

[bw3]

Crying Foul

Yes, when you were getting the assigned weeks at your agreed upon maintenance fee and Marriott tries to work a scam to take it away, an owner should be irate. If Marriott takes 300-1,200 points away from you on every exchange and raises the maintenance fee, you would be foolish to just stand by and say it is OK or fair. Marriott is now going to attempt to charge me 4,500 points for each week from May 27-June 17. I sometimes get those weeks now. But they will always give me 3,325 for gold Grande Ocean with the luxury of trading 3 weeks for 2, for the privelege of getting those weeks. It is important to let all owners know they are getting screwed. Some will not get it and they will sign up for this rip-off. But we need to save those that we can.

 

[hipslo]

Still attempting to determine whether the 13 month rule for reservations will apply to owners that do not convert to point. I've read some of the documentation provided throughout the posts, but it only addresses owners that convert. I own resale Desert Springs currently and in process of purchasing another. Sure hope the reservation system doesn't change for those not converting to points. Any thoughts on this?

The mvci website indicates that multiple week owners who do not convert can continue to reserve at 13 months as under the current rules. The issue, as I see it, is increased competition, at 13 months, from any points owner who holds at least 6500 points (or 6900, in the case of mountainside, which is the amount of points required to reserve the best weeks). We will no longer be competing against only those who own weeks at our home resort at 13 months. I suspect this will result in reservations for the best weeks becoming much more difficult, even at 13 months. It is the euqivalent of anyone who makes a deposit in II with suficient trade power under the current system being able to snag a week at your home resort on equal footing with you, 13 months in advance.

The whole concept of home resort priority appears to be pretty much out the window, even for those who don't convert to points.

 

[Dave M]

So, if there are 100 owners - 25 weeks owners and 75 points owners, the 25 weeks owners compete with each other for 25 weeks, no more, no less.

The 75 points owners compete for 75 weeks, no more, no less, and they have a higher chance of getting premium weeks because other owners are discouraged by the higher price.

You are correct, assuming there are only 100 owners in total at the resort. However, it appears that for a specific week (e.g., week 27) at a resort, there are no pools. Thus, when the points and weeks owners all call in at 13 or 12 months in advance, the first weeks reserved will likely go to whoever gets through first - as long as the total weeks for a season that are allocated to weeks owners are not diminished by points reservations. The weeks owners are guaranteed a week during their season, but not for a specific week.

 

[Werner Weiss]

In this new Marriott system, points are not tied to anything real. Marriott can increase requirements as high as they would like. Your owned week will always get you a week at your home resort. But you have no way of knowing how many points it will take in 10 years to get in to any Marriott property, old or new. You have no way of knowing how many points Marriott will decide to assign to your owned week. There are no rules that govern what Marriott may do in regards to the points system (other than those set by Marriott, of course).

What heathpack wrote is scary. Unfortunately -- and I hope I'm wrong -- it appears to be true.

I've looked through various online documents trying to find language that protects owners who opt for the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program against point chart adjustments that devalue exchange points over time.

I've been unsuccessful.

I would not object to point chart changes that reallocate points to keep demand even. (That's what Disney Vacation Club does.) But the total number of points over the period of a year should not change!

For example... If a resort has two six month seasons, with higher season weeks set at 3,400 points and lower season weeks set at 2,600 points, I would not object if the point requirements are adjusted to 3,800 and 2,200 points, respectively, if it turns out the the demand is out of balance. In other words, if the chart goes up one place, it goes down elsewhere in such a way that there's no net change in total points across the year.

Using the example above, if the high season went up to 3,800 points, but the low season remained at 2,600 points, the effect would be to devalue points. And, of course, it would be even worse if the high season went up to 3,800 points and the low season went up to 3,000 points.

Has anyone found language that protects the value of the annual allocation of exchange points?

Or is heathpack correct (as I fear is the case)?

To me this would be the difference between a system that is worth considering and one that should absolutely be avoided!

 

[hipslo]

Where is is documented that there are separate "pools?" And if there are how are they reserved/allocated? (ie. who get the best weeks?)

There is no such document, so far as I have seen. And the allocation is purely "first come/ first serve", according to the rep I spoke with over the phone today.

I hope she is wrong. She certainly didnt seem sure.

 

[hipslo]

You are correct, assuming there are only 100 owners in total at the resort. However, it appears that for a specific week (e.g., week 27) at a resort, there are no pools. Thus, when the points and weeks owners all call in at 13 or 12 months in advance, the first weeks reserved will likely go to whoever gets through first - as long as the total weeks for a season that are allocated to weeks owners are not diminished by points reservations. The weeks owners are guaranteed a week during their season, but not for a specific week.

Dave - what makes you reach that conclusion? Anything specific?

 

[DanCali]

Ok. I see that now. Under a points system like DVC the number of points sold always has to equal the number of points to reserve through the year. The total points is the same but the distribution can change.

What people are saying under the overlay system the number of points sold does not equal the number of points to reserve through the year. It takes more points to reserve the year than points obtained if everyone converted.

If that is the case then I would call that a rip off. Or maybe a bad deal. You are exchanging for flexibility and access to the new resorts, but you are not seeing the true cost. It is the fee plus the total devaluation.

I guess the only way to tell is to multiply out the current calendar by the points offered vs. the points to exchange for each resort. I wonder if anyone has access to all the info? We can do the exchange piece, but would need input from other week owners that have other seasons at the resorts.

It is actualy much more than that... Marriott takes the lost value and can rent ot out for profit.

Take a very simple example. Assume for a second only two resorts and both all 2BR. Both resorts are float 1-52. Now each owner gets 5000 points, but it costs 6000 points to trade into their season.

Suppose only two owners trade to theother resort so they can get only 5 nights as follows:

Owner 1 trades from resort A to resort B for 5 nights using 5000 points.
Owner 2 trades from resort B to resort A for 5 nights using 5000 points.

All the other owners stay at their home resort.

So now there are 2 nights at each resort that go unused. Guess who benefits from this? Marriott can come in and rent those units probably at 75 days out or so.

Now assume 2 owners turn into 20,000...

 

[SueDonJ]

... The vast majority of TUGGERS are smart enough that when they find themselves shorted of the necessary points to reserve any week in their season, it's not a worthwhile program to participate in. Should you feel that it's an equitable program, one in which you perhaps recieve the points required to reserve your desired week at your home resort, then feel free to sign up. ... Thanks but no thanks Marriott. We agreed to a specific price, specific unit size, specific view AND specific seasons/weeks we can reserve.

I'm so confused reading your posts. If you enroll in the points system you ARE able to reserve any week in your season at your home resort in the exact same way you always have, with the exact same "subject to availability" caveat that's always been in place. (Granted, the addition of Points owners who can now book at non-owned resorts at the same time as Weeks owners will impact availability, but that impact is across the board and everyone will be affected by it.) The points charts are for exchange usage, not home resort usage. This from the FAQ has been copied here already but it doesn't appear from what you're posting that you've seen it:

Does anything change after I enroll my week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program?

None of your existing options change after you enroll your week(s) with the Marriott Vacation Club Destinations Exchange Program, except you will now have the convenience of paying consolidated Club Dues instead of à la carte fees. If you wish to continue using your week(s) as you have always done, you may. ...

*****

The way I'm reading all these posts about "skimming" is separate from what I keep reading in all of Doug's posts. I understand what's being talked about with "skimming" - I don't understand why Doug keeps insisting that home resort usage is impacted in the way he says it is.

 

[DanCali]

They ARE giving out ALL the points they are requiring. But they are spread over ALL owners in that season/group. There is no skimming or non-existent points being asked for. To say they aren't assigning as many points to those periods as they are asking for is an absolutely incorrect statement. It makes it sound somehow underhanded or a value grab when that just isn't the case.

John,

here is another post that will hopefully make you see the point...

"Underhanded" and "value grab" are EXACTLY the right words for this.

At Cypress Harbour, we don't even get enough points to book any week in our season. We are allocated 2,650 points but it takes at least 2,675 to reserve any week. The average value should have been 2,828 rounded to 2,825. I think we are being penalized since this resort is sold out and not in Marriott's inventory.

Week Points

1 2,675
2 2,675
3 2,675
4 2,675
5 3,225
6 2,900
7 2,900
8 2,900
9 2,900
10 2,900
11 2,900
12 2,900
13 2,675
14 2,675
15 2,675
16 2,675
17 2,675
51 2,900
52 3,225

Average Value 2,828

 

[crosbyu]

Questions from a newby

From what I can tell so far it is a fleecing of the current owners and a deathblow to Interval. I am not happy about it as far as I can tell. For example, I used to be able to do a direct exchange for another property regardless of value if it was available. This will not be the case any longer. I read the FAQ's and it said the inventory for this program will come from those exchanging for Marriott Reward points and those exchanging through INTERVAL. I take that to mean that if it is available through Interval then Marriott will gobble it up instead of allowing Interval to trade you straight out.

I also read where owners that have purchased through third parties can eventually get credit for Marriott reward points. This is a direct contradiction to what we were told when we bought at Horizons in Orlando back in 2000. They said those benefits would not be available if you sold your property to a third party vendor and someone bought the property through them. The benefits of MVC ownership were non-transferable. Am I missing anything here? Or am I not seeing the big picture?

 

[taffy19]

You are correct, assuming there are only 100 owners in total at the resort. However, it appears that for a specific week (e.g., week 27) at a resort, there are no pools. Thus, when the points and weeks owners all call in at 13 or 12 months in advance, the first weeks reserved will likely go to whoever gets through first - as long as the total weeks for a season that are allocated to weeks owners are not diminished by points reservations. The weeks owners are guaranteed a week during their season, but not for a specific week.

This is exactly what we went through as single week owners when the 13 months' rule (a perk to multiple week owners and a fantastic sales's tool for the Marriott) came into effect. We lost 50% chance to reserve the week we wanted when we made the call at 6 AM PST sharp and now it is going to happen again. You still will be getting reservations in your deeded season, if you want to stay at your resort, but getting the holiday weeks (school vacations or other holidays) will be difficult to get when all other resort owners will be competing with you and when more resorts are added later.

PS. We should hire an attorney together to interpret the contract and documents for each resort to us but you need someone who understands the system. Are there any volunteers?

 

[csalter2]

Wow!!! Read before you leap

I must share with you that this morning I had a long discussion with a sales rep and I don't have the same level of anxiety that many seem to have. I read post after post and I must tell you that maybe I missed something on the phone.

First, I must share with you that I was told that if I wanted to keep things as they were, I could.

Secondly, I was told that since I was an owner already with Marriott, I could join the points program and still have all of the previous options plus extra flexibility. I like that. I liked not paying for lock offs to II and exchanging to another Marriott. I saw that as a benefit.

Thirdly, I was told how many points I would receive for my 2 bedroom floating week mountain view Ko Olina property. I would receive 4025 points for it. I did not know what that meant until I asked for platinum time for seven days at other resorts like Lakeshore Reserve and DSVI. Upon comparing I realized that for me, I would do very well for most properties except Maui. I did not like that realization. However, I did ask when I noticed that I would be 545 points short if I wanted to reserve my own place the following year. For example, in the weeks system, I could reserve one week in the studio and then the second week in the one bedroom for two weeks. With the points system it's 1900 for the studio and 2650 for the one bedroom so the two weeks would cost me 4550 points. I asked the rep about this 545 point shortfall. He explained that for the year I wanted to stay, I would just book like I did weeks and it would not be a problem. However, if I gave my week up to points and wanted to go back later on the next year to stay after I gave up my week to points, it would cost me. So if you want to stay in your resort don't turn that year into points.

I must say that with no kids in the house anymore, I was thinking about what to do since I won't really need two bedrooms. This change seems good. I own Diamond Resorts International (DRI) and am used to point systems. Many of the Marriott options I have with DRI. The difference is that DRI has a home resort reservation advantage. With DRI I have the 13 month reservation advantage for resorts in my home collection. I like that a lot. Also, with DRI if you make reservations under 60 days it costs half the points. That is a really, really great benefit.

Please note that using these points for anything other than accommodations will result in a loss. You have flexibility at a loss of what your fees will be. If you take a cruise or go on an African Safari, you will not be getting your full value for your points. Remember that.

Also, please understand that the dues and maintenance fees with continue to rise each year. What's $1200 this year will be $1240 or more the next and will increase all the time. When you buy more points understand that your maintenance fees will increase with it. The dues are $166 this year and they will be $169 next year and will increase after that.

I share this to warn you because I have experience with DRI. New owners into Marriott will only be able to buy points. They will need to buy more points to be able to really vacation. It will be $10 per point very soon. That will be expensive. Remember 2000 points will be $20,000. Depending on your flexibility with your family's vacation schedule you could be in trouble. It won't get you prime summer weeks in most of the nice places unless it's a studio. So people will have to buy more points to really be able to take advantage of the great accommodations.

Everyone must be aware of what this is truly all about. This is about making money for Marriott. I am not saying that they do not have owners' interests in their thoughts, but this will provide a steady stream of income. Every owner in the points program will pay $166 plus every single year. If you sell your unit, the new owners will need to pay into the points system as it will not be transferable. This will help Marriott and its employees. Nothing wrong with that, but just keep this in mind.

I have not decided if I will be joining as of yet. I need to read more on it and consider my vacation goals for the future. I am on the fence. I see good, but I have that DRI experience so I know the pitfalls.

One last thing... I have been with DRI since they took over Sunterra. I have not seen a change in point allocations on the units over the last 10 years. They have completed upgraded and significantly changed some units in some of the resorts and they have increased those rooms allocations. However, they still have rooms that have the old point allocation as well.

 

[jlr10]

So this is how this plays out for us:

We own Summer week DSVII. Value of points to us 1675. Points to stay there 1775. 100 point difference. Cost to purchase 100 points ($9.20x100)=920. So for $695, plus $165 annual fee, and the $920, the total cost for the first week to trade back into the desert during the summer months is $1,780, on top of my maintenance fee, and then only $1,085 for every other trade back, well until they devalue the points? Doesn't sound like a great deal for a summer week in the desert. Pretty sure I could find a great deal for that amount of money at that timeframe.

In the past we have traded into Waiohai 5 times, using 4 exchange reqests and 1 AC. Now we would have to deposit three weeks to get one week off season. How is that a good deal for us?

People can say that it is equitable based on the value of the resorts, but the entire selling point of purchasing Marriott in the first place was the possibility of trading into a nice resort using our week. With this points system there is no possibility, meaning zero, nada...We can't even exchange back for what we purchased.

Feelin' like this is just short of bait and switch.