John Oliver’s take on Timeshares

[timsi]

You could look up what they cost in the late 90s.

We spent the bulk of our vacations in Europe, with a kitchen, for about $85 per night. (It was more than that when we started because we hadn't amortized the initial purchase -- but I knew what the numbers would be after 10/20/30 years.)

I was happy back then. I'm particularly happy when I get a week at Highlands Inn in Carmel for about $85 a night.

For the right sort of person, timeshare doesn't just work. It works better than nearly anything else. As I said earlier, there wasn't any real competition until AirBnB arrived.

Most people should just stick with hotels or AirBnB. They have no business owning timeshares because that requires doing both homework and some legwork. Hotels-dot-com is the easy way.

I am glad if it has worked for you. As you mentioned, buying retail is very expensive and it does not make sense for most people. If there was political interest to reform and improve the industry,
few things would have to happen. At the very minimum:
- Increase the cool off period to 15 days. I think it should actually be 30 days (maybe with a penalty 15-30 days from signing the contract).
- The timeshare companies should provide in the contracts a detailed calculation with the estimate of the true costs of owning for the next 20 years including network fees, maintenance fees, upfront cost and interests, all taking into account the average inflation in the timeshare industry.
- The timeshare companies should be liable for what is verbally communicated to the potential owners, not just what is in the initial written package that is hundreds of pages long and virtually nobody has time to read in the current 5-10 day cool off period while on vacation.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

[I moved my rant to a new thread to avoid distracting from this one. Thinking aloud about new business models for the industry]

 

[BingoBangoBongo]

While John Oliver can be over the top and entertaining, he should have at least mentioned there is an active resale market for new buyers and those trying to get out. When my wife and I tell someone we bought some timeshares a couple of years ago, they look at us like we have seven heads. My antidote is that over the past two years we have booked 72 nights in some really nice resorts, generally all with separate sleeping areas, full kitchens and in room washer/dryer for less than $100/night. If i add in the part of my initial investment that I don't expect to recover, that would add about $20/night.

 

[SandyPGravel]

The timeshare companies should be liable for what is verbally communicated to the potential owners

 

[ScoopKona]

If there was political interest to reform and improve the industry,

There isn't, of course. Because corporations are people, too. And have rights.

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

There isn't, of course. Because corporations are people, too. And have rights.

True -

I guess They- We- Us all have the right to participate in the alternative truth universe
LOL

 

[T-Dot-Traveller]

My week cost around $12K all in. It was upgraded to a better week for zero dollars 10 years ago. Prior to the upgrade, we got 2-3 weeks of vacations out of each maintenance fee. And since the upgrade, 3-5. A fair average of total vacation days per year -- 21 days. Average maintenance fees over the 25 years we have owned it? $1300. Up until an assessment last year, we have never paid more than $1500 per year.

So, ((1300 x 25) + 12K) / 525 days = $85 per night.

Yes, I'm still QUITE happy with my purchase. Even happier with the fact we've taken more than two years off for vacation during the prime of our working lives and it had zero effect on our finances.

Years ago I read a TUG post where the person said :

"I wish I had bought developer when I first went to a presentation
- because when I finally bought resale & started going on vacations - I realized how many priceless years of family memories we had missed.
Buying pushed me to go on vacation ; when before I had prIorItIzed work over family time. I can always make more money ; but those memories are lost forever "

I am paraphrasing what was posted & I cannot recall what thread or what member made the post.

 

[timsi]

There isn't, of course. Because corporations are people, too. And have rights.

Lying is not a right.

 

[TUGBrian]

the main argument against mentioning resale, was that in their research they had discovered multiple systems put penalties on resale buyers and that it really wasnt "the same" across the board (despite my argument that those perks still werent worth the additional cost when that situation did exist) etc.

I believe they just kinda saw that rabbit hole being off on tangent to the actual story and chose to not mention it at all.

 

[HuskerATL]

Lying is not a right.

In America it is....but that is a whole other discussion....

 

[The Colorado Kid]

the main argument against mentioning resale, was that in their research they had discovered multiple systems put penalties on resale buyers and that it really wasnt "the same" across the board (despite my argument that those perks still werent worth the additional cost when that situation did exist) etc.

I believe they just kinda saw that rabbit hole being off on tangent to the actual story and chose to not mention it at all.

@TUGBrian It's likely already been said here but I'm certain that your positive-ways-to-use-timeshares message was not the one JO wanted to amplify.

 

[ScoopKona]

True -

I guess They- We- Us all have the right to participate in the alternative truth universe
LOL

The people who enjoy their timeshare purchase aren't asking you to join them. Frankly, the fewer happy owners, the better -- there's enough competition for trades as it is.

Most people have no business owning a timeshare -- and the only reason they do is because of the free-gift, game-show song-and-dance. The people who do well with timeshares don't want any of that. The numbers either work or they don't. In my case, they have worked great. For everyone else, they can not take vacations, or use hotels-dot-com, and leave timesharing for the people who are willing to put the effort in.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I liken the current timeshare business to house-flipping. There are those who invest the time and expertise and succeed handsomely because they pick their opportunities.

And there are many who try but don't put in the time and energy to build the expertise, and fail. Mass audience financial planners will say, "Don't house flip because you will lose money." Because most people can't or won't do the work to pick the right opportunities. They lose money or don't take time to figure it out then complain about it which feeds the mass media outlets.

Most Tuggers are like the successful house-flippers. They know what they are doing. Like house-flipping, it is not for everyone.

 

[PigsDad]

Years ago I read a TUG post where the person said :

"I wish I had bought developer when I first went to a presentation
- because when I finally bought resale & started going on vacations - I realized how many priceless years of family memories we had missed.
Buying pushed me to go on vacation ; when before I had prIorItIzed work over family time. I can always make more money ; but those memories are lost forever "

I am paraphrasing what was posted & I cannot recall what thread or what member made the post.

Of course, what that person was really saying is that they wished they had known about resale when they first went to a presentation. The lost time they regret could have been avoided if they had purchased resale right away. That's why we Tuggers need to keep getting out the word about resale to the masses whenever we can!

Kurt

 

[frytard]

Wyndham's acronym was hilarious. That is definitely what they do.

I think it's also Westin/ Marriott's acronym as well after our last presentation on Maui two years ago. They just made up whatever they could to get us reeled in.

Dave Ramsey looks like a disgusting person in that video where he is bragging on his millions. That's real? He really said that?

Opposite experience at Marriott KO'Olina. The first guy was not knowledgeable and kept focusing on points but thats his job I guess. When the "closer" guy and it was one simple "no" and he was done and thanked me for my time. They did make me sit through about 60 minutes or so of educating me on points or whatever but after the No it was over.

 

[rickandcindy23]

While John Oliver can be over the top and entertaining, he should have at least mentioned there is an active resale market for new buyers and those trying to get out. When my wife and I tell someone we bought some timeshares a couple of years ago, they look at us like we have seven heads. My antidote is that over the past two years we have booked 72 nights in some really nice resorts, generally all with separate sleeping areas, full kitchens and in room washer/dryer for less than $100/night. If i add in the part of my initial investment that I don't expect to recover, that would add about $20/night.

I think it's good to talk up timeshare, but when you are telling them what you bought, you should always tell them to look at resale. You do not know what your love of timeshare is going to do to your friends on a timeshare presentation. "Our friends love their timeshare."

Our son is staying at Nanea in a 2 bedroom while we are here at Hono Koa, and he is itching to buy Nanea, a 3 bedroom. Fortunately, he has me to reign in his excitement at owning Nanea. He has the money to buy, and he has 3 kids to use a 3 bedroom, and that is the only thing they want. The thing is, the resale market for Nanea is an unknown because what he wants, there is only one on Redweek that is deeded oceanfront. Until there is a resale market for Nanea, I want him to slow down. They aren't even planning to come to Maui next spring break, we are all going to Europe for 3 weeks. We have a cruise and several nights at hotels in Italy and France.

When I told him I love Westin and would buy resale with mandatory staroptions, he was incredulous that I would suggest buying such a small unit for 3 kids. "We love the layout of this place, especially the three bedroom floorplan. We don't want a lockoff unit." My answer, "But the value is retained with a resale mandatory options purchase. We have no idea what Nanea will sell for in the future."

His wife will not go on the timeshare presentation with him. And herein lies the problem. $150 (or whatever they offer) is not worthy of their time at all. She will not sit in on a presentation and waste a salesperson's time and then buy resale. I am encouraging them to go and enjoy lunch with the $150 gift without the kids, we can babysit for the presentation and lunch, but he needs to hear facts at the presentation, and I told our daughter-in-law that they may not get facts, especially if they say the word resale. She wants to be honest.

Bottomline, if I knew they would hear truth, I would be more insistent. But they won't. We didn't hear any truth two years ago, we only heard guesses as to what Marriott would do, and maybe it's not as bad as it was then, but when you have to tell the prospective buyers that your checks are signed by Marriott, you are reaching to convince a prospect that Marriott will include Westin into their program. That was our last experience.

 

[BingoBangoBongo]

I think it's good to talk up timeshare, but when you are telling them what you bought, you should always tell them to look at resale. You do not know what your love of timeshare is going to do to your friends on a timeshare presentation. "Our friends love their timeshare."

Our son is staying at Nanea in a 2 bedroom while we are here at Hono Koa, and he is itching to buy Nanea, a 3 bedroom. Fortunately, he has me to reign in his excitement at owning Nanea. He has the money to buy, and he has 3 kids to use a 3 bedroom, and that is the only thing they want. The thing is, the resale market for Nanea is an unknown because what he wants, there is only one on Redweek that is deeded oceanfront. Until there is a resale market for Nanea, I want him to slow down. They aren't even planning to come to Maui next spring break, we are all going to Europe for 3 weeks. We have a cruise and several nights at hotels in Italy and France.

When I told him I love Westin and would buy resale with mandatory staroptions, he was incredulous that I would suggest buying such a small unit for 3 kids. "We love the layout of this place, especially the three bedroom floorplan. We don't want a lockoff unit." My answer, "But the value is retained with a resale mandatory options purchase. We have no idea what Nanea will sell for in the future."

His wife will not go on the timeshare presentation with him. And herein lies the problem. $150 (or whatever they offer) is not worthy of their time at all. She will not sit in on a presentation and waste a salesperson's time and then buy resale. I am encouraging them to go and enjoy lunch with the $150 gift without the kids, we can babysit for the presentation and lunch, but he needs to hear facts at the presentation, and I told our daughter-in-law that they may not get facts, especially if they say the word resale. She wants to be honest.

Bottomline, if I knew they would hear truth, I would be more insistent. But they won't. We didn't hear any truth two years ago, we only heard guesses as to what Marriott would do, and maybe it's not as bad as it was then, but when you have to tell the prospective buyers that your checks are signed by Marriott, you are reaching to convince a prospect that Marriott will include Westin into their program. That was our last experience.

I always tell them there is a "pretty active resale market" and tell them that we bought for $.10 on the dollar of the original sale from the developer. My next line is that they shouldn't buy on any developer offer.

As some others have posted, I would guess that a large % of people unhappy with their timeshares aren't able/willing to put some time and work into planning trips enough ahead of time or truly understand how to best use what they own given how they want to travel.

 

[geist1223]

Have they looked at the Timeshares Resell Hawaii Web Site. They do not currently list any 3 bedrooms only 2 bedroom units. Also with the Beach Restoration being up in the air will this effect Nanea

 

[ScoopKona]

And there are many who try but don't put in the time and energy to build the expertise, and fail. Mass audience financial planners will say, "Don't house flip because you will lose money." Because most people can't or won't do the work to pick the right opportunities. They lose money or don't take time to figure it out then complain about it which feeds the mass media outlets.

Most Tuggers are like the successful house-flippers. They know what they are doing. Like house-flipping, it is not for everyone.

An apt comparison. I'm in the process of selling houses on the mainland that I purchased on the cheap at the bottom of the last housing bubble (luck, not skill). I've owned them for more than 10 years -- so 120 months of rent, each; appreciation; and the ability to roll everything together in a 1031 exchange to finance my plans on the farm.

The surest way to excel in this country is to pay attention* to what the masses and what the pundits of the masses suggest. Then do the opposite. If they're buying houses -- sell. If they're selling stocks -- buy. If Jim Cramer tells you to do anything at all, do the opposite.

It's basically Warren Buffett's investing advice.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Agree. Many of the financial pundits give peanut butter advice designed for masses. I've had 50/50 with Jim Cramer. Lost on Sears (what a mess), but gained handsomely on one of his health stock recommendations (I cannot remember the name).

FWIW...I'm going with the crowd now on 5% CDs instead of bonds or bond funds. Can't go wrong.

 

[dioxide45]

I've been trying to find a citation for the 85% of owners regret buying. I see this 85% mentioned in a lot of articles and also by the many exit companies, but I have failed to actually locate the UCF study. Several articles have a link to the study, but the link is broken.

 

[timsi]

I've been trying to find a citation for the 85% of owners regret buying. I see this 85% mentioned in a lot of articles and also by the many exit companies, but I have failed to actually locate the UCF study. Several articles have a link to the study, but the link is broken.

I have not found either the actual studies the timeshare companies cite to claim a high satisfaction rate.

 

[dioxide45]

I have not found either the actual studies the timeshare companies cite to claim a high satisfaction rate.

There is a report available on the ARDA site for free download. It does require you to create an account, but I was able to download it.

U.S. Shared Vacation Ownership Consolidated Owners Report: 2018 Edition | ARDA

www.arda.org

It does have a lot of other information in it about overall metrics and demographics, but here is what it summarizes about satisfaction rates. I doubt we would ever find the underlying study data or questions that were asked of the 1,600 people;

 

[CalGalTraveler]

hmm...Positive ratings from a study sponsored by ARDA - the industry lobbying group funded by developers - what could possibly be biased about that study?

 

[dioxide45]

hmm...Positive ratings from a study sponsored by ARDA - the industry lobbying group funded by developers - what could possibly be biased about that study?

I don't disagree, but we don't know who funded or sponsored the other UCF study that shows 85% regret their purchase.