John Oliver’s take on Timeshares

[HuskerATL]

I don't disagree, but we don't know who funded or sponsored the other UCF study that shows 85% regret their purchase

That was funded by VRBO...

 

[dioxide45]

That was funded by VRBO...

Or by a timeshare exit company...

 

[timsi]

There is a report available on the ARDA site for free download. It does require you to create an account, but I was able to download it.

U.S. Shared Vacation Ownership Consolidated Owners Report: 2018 Edition | ARDA

www.arda.org

It does have a lot of other information in it about overall metrics and demographics, but here is what it summarizes about satisfaction rates. I doubt we would ever find the underlying study data or questions that were asked of the 1,600 people;
View attachment 74612

72% of owners would recommend a timeshare? What are they smoking LOL?

The report is as unscientific as it can get if it is based on an online poll with no stated margin of error, no indication that the sample was random, demographics, no questions and so on. The PDF itself does not even indicate the sources. By the way, there is no indication in the actual report if the 85% satisfaction rate was the result of an actual poll or if by contrast the numbers came from the timeshare companies. Probably more smoke and mirrors.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

72% of owners would recommend a timeshare? What are they smoking LOL?

The report is as unscientific as it can get if it is based on an online poll with no stated margin of error, no indication that the sample was random, demographics, no questions and so on. The PDF itself does not even indicate the sources. By the way, there is no indication in the actual report if the 85% satisfaction rate was the result of an actual poll or if by contrast the numbers came from the timeshare companies. Probably more smoke and mirrors.

Ha Ha! Probably a straw poll taken at the last ARDA convention attended by developers.

 

[dioxide45]

72% of owners would recommend a timeshare? What are they smoking LOL?

The report is as unscientific as it can get if it is based on an online poll with no stated margin of error, no indication that the sample was random, demographics, no questions and so on. The PDF itself does not even indicate the sources. By the way, there is no indication in the actual report if the 85% satisfaction rate was the result of an actual poll or if by contrast the numbers came from the timeshare companies. Probably more smoke and mirrors.

I'm merely pointing out two different and conflicting "studies". We don't know the source or really anything about the other study cited in the John Oliver video. His source is USA Today. The USA Today article contains a broken link to the study. I have yet to turn up the study, though I have reached out to UCF to see if I can find something. I suspect the actual number of satisfied people is somewhere in the middle. I see a lot of happy people at the resorts we visit. Would I recommend timeshare to others? Certainly, I have, though only after truly understanding what it is they are looking for and also telling them about resale.

 

[bnoble]

They are also asking different questions. I bet a fair number of TUG members both (a) regret one of their timeshare purchases but (b) would recommend timeshare ownership to someone.

 

[TUGBrian]

hmm...Positive ratings from a study sponsored by ARDA - the industry lobbying group funded by developers - what could possibly be biased about that study?

the issue i have with studies like that, is they never seem to indicate WHAT question was asked.

we even noticed in the TUG survey that just making one or two additions/subtractions in any question changes it DRAMATICALLY!

id imagine i could easily get a positive response on ownership if I asked "Ignoring the costs, how happy are you with your Timeshare while on vacation by the pool on a beautiful sunny day?"

and the exact OPPOSITE response if I asked "how would you rate the sales presentation/process when you bought your timeshare" lol

 

[bnoble]

I suspect the biggest "satisfaction" factor is whether or not people actually use the timeshare they bought. The second biggest factor is whether or not they understood and can afford the financial commitment they are making. If you think about the "help me get out of this" posts we see here, they are almost always one of two cases. One: I bought this thing, but I really can't afford it and I need to get out of it. Two: I bought this thing, and I haven't used it for years, and I need to get out of it.

I don't know what to do about the fact that a lot of people don't (or can't) do the second part. Anyone who is financially literate should be able to understand the terms of a timeshare loan. They also should know that the annual fees are going to go up because inflation is a thing and it exists everywhere. I used to think that this was a failure of education. I am continually shocked at how many otherwise well-educated people simply refuse to even admit that the time value of money exists, let alone considers it when making a purchase. Then again, I am not sure I really understood it until I took an engineering erconomics class as an undergraduate.

The first part also matters, and again, I'm not sure if there's anything to do about this. We've all made purchases that, at the time, sounded like a great idea, but that we never use. A lot of gym memberships and exercise equipment falls under this. But, working out is hard. Taking vacations shouldn't be, but for some reason it is for a lot of people. Timeshare ownership works best if you can have a mindset where vacations are just as important as anything else in your life. Most people in the US fit in vacations around everything else in their lives. We have among the lowest amount of paid vacation per year of any OECD country, and even then a substantial number of people let their vacation days expire rather than use them.

I am not sure many of us on TUG understand how hard it is for some people, because we "get it." But, there is CONSTANT societal pressure from all around us to work harder. I read an op-ed piece in NYT the other day commenting on the fact that our post-pandemic re-evaluation of our relationship with work, and making work less important, was a BAD THING. My involuntary audible reaction to that is not fit for sharing on a family-friendly web site. It's fine if our "productivity" goes down a little, and stuff gets a little more expensive, so we buy a little less of it, if what we are getting in return is more of our sanity back. We don't need to sacrifice ourselves on the altar of productivity.

Which brings me around to developer purchases. Are they ideal? Of course not. You can often get almost exactly the same thing for a lot less. That doesn't mean that they are terrible. If you can afford it, and you actually use it, maybe it's not the worst thing in the world that you paid more than you had to if it actually changes your relationship to vacation for the better.

 

[dioxide45]

Even the wording from the USA Today article cited in the video is strange "85% of timeshare owners who go to contract regret their purchase". Don't all timeshare owners go to contract?

 

[Mowogo]

I liken the current timeshare business to house-flipping. There are those who invest the time and expertise and succeed handsomely because they pick their opportunities.

And there are many who try but don't put in the time and energy to build the expertise, and fail. Mass audience financial planners will say, "Don't house flip because you will lose money." Because most people can't or won't do the work to pick the right opportunities. They lose money or don't take time to figure it out then complain about it which feeds the mass media outlets.

Most Tuggers are like the successful house-flippers. They know what they are doing. Like house-flipping, it is not for everyone.

The complexity of using timeshares is exactly what makes them so useful if you are willing to put in the work. Just like the house-flippers most won't be willing to put in the right work.

The problem is that people don't want to put in the work and don't have the flexibility to do full maximizing of ownership. And because it takes a lot more work than most people want to put in especially after being sold about how easy it is to travel to Hawaii using their ownership.

I've been able to exchange my generic Las Vegas timeshare for Disney World, and will be staying on course during the F1 race in Vegas where Excalibur is wanting $700 a night plus resort fees. I've leveraged last call/extra vacations/Open Season to travel even more including when the NFL Draft is in town after a major convention.

But all of these have been opportunistic, but also because I'm willing to just poke around and have flexibility. If your travel dates are fixed, another travel platform would be better because everyone is competing for the holidays which are more difficult to book unless you are booking what you own or booking further out than a lot of people want to book now (Booked Christmas last month). But if you aren't willing to book within the rules of how timeshare exchanges work and how resorts deposit inventory then they are an absolute disaster. And the even sadder reality is that much of the amazing last minute inventory that you find is spoilage from owners who just aren't using their ownership.

 

[bnoble]

The problem is that people don't want to put in the work and don't have the flexibility to do full maximizing of ownership. And because it takes a lot more work than most people want to put in especially after being sold about how easy it is to travel to Hawaii using their ownership.

I've been able to exchange my generic Las Vegas timeshare for Disney World, and will be staying on course during the F1 race in Vegas where Excalibur is wanting $700 a night plus resort fees. I've leveraged last call/extra vacations/Open Season to travel even more including when the NFL Draft is in town after a major convention.

The thing is, I don't think this sort of optimization is required. If you bought a week, fixed or floating, and you use it every year at that resort, and you don't do anything else, that's fine. Just "basic use" is enough for it to be something worth owning. Fixed is no work at all. For floating you just need to set a calendar reminder to make a reservation.

No, you may not know if that's the "best" week to go for work, or whatever. Fine. Take your best guess, and make going a priority.

Same is true for points systems. Just book something and commit to going. You'll have fun, I promise.

 

[timsi]

I suspect the biggest "satisfaction" factor is whether or not people actually use the timeshare they bought. The second biggest factor is whether or not they understood and can afford the financial commitment they are making. If you think about the "help me get out of this" posts we see here, they are almost always one of two cases. One: I bought this thing, but I really can't afford it and I need to get out of it. Two: I bought this thing, and I haven't used it for years, and I need to get out of it.

I don't know what to do about the fact that a lot of people don't (or can't) do the second part. Anyone who is financially literate should be able to understand the terms of a timeshare loan. They also should know that the annual fees are going to go up because inflation is a thing and it exists everywhere. I used to think that this was a failure of education. I am continually shocked at how many otherwise well-educated people simply refuse to even admit that the time value of money exists, let alone considers it when making a purchase. Then again, I am not sure I really understood it until I took an engineering erconomics class as an undergraduate.

The first part also matters, and again, I'm not sure if there's anything to do about this. We've all made purchases that, at the time, sounded like a great idea, but that we never use. A lot of gym memberships and exercise equipment falls under this. But, working out is hard. Taking vacations shouldn't be, but for some reason it is for a lot of people. Timeshare ownership works best if you can have a mindset where vacations are just as important as anything else in your life. Most people in the US fit in vacations around everything else in their lives. We have among the lowest amount of paid vacation per year of any OECD country, and even then a substantial number of people let their vacation days expire rather than use them.

I am not sure many of us on TUG understand how hard it is for some people, because we "get it." But, there is CONSTANT societal pressure from all around us to work harder. I read an op-ed piece in NYT the other day commenting on the fact that our post-pandemic re-evaluation of our relationship with work, and making work less important, was a BAD THING. My involuntary audible reaction to that is not fit for sharing on a family-friendly web site. It's fine if our "productivity" goes down a little, and stuff gets a little more expensive, so we buy a little less of it, if what we are getting in return is more of our sanity back. We don't need to sacrifice ourselves on the altar of productivity.

Which brings me around to developer purchases. Are they ideal? Of course not. You can often get almost exactly the same thing for a lot less. That doesn't mean that they are terrible. If you can afford it, and you actually use it, maybe it's not the worst thing in the world that you paid more than you had to if it actually changes your relationship to vacation for the better.

I continue to make a distinction between the time I spend at the resorts and how I interact with the timeshare company from an administrative point of view. I am referring specifically to Westin. These resorts were developed long before the current Marriott management team took over and they only have to cruise along, not causing too much harm. Since Marriott got involved, Westin Lagunamar dropped significantly in the Tripadvisor ranking and it is no longer in the top 15, 25 or even 50 resorts in Cancun. The maintenance fees have also gone up significantly since they took over (more than the industry average I believe), but it is still a great resort. All they have to do is respect the royalty agreement with Marriott International and maintain a certain quality (they have the money because we pay the fees). The local team (nothing to do with Marriott or maybe we should be grateful they did not fire them all), the location, the initial design and the ocean will do the rest to keep Lagunamar a great resort.

When it comes to my relationship with MVC things are at the complete opposite corner. Usually, poor customer service and long periods of time without a working website, people have had a hard time paying maintenance fees, contract transfer issues, new products that seemed designed in a rush even if they had 4 years to prepare etc. To make it worse, the image that I get is hubris instead of competence, very few apologies (if any) coming from the higher ups to the great number of owners that have had to endure hours of frustration for things that should be routine and painless.

Yes, I can make my timeshare work for me but I am not giving the management a lot of credit for that. I paid resale prices, I just cannot comprehend how could anyone who paid the rack price give them passing marks.

 

[timsi]

the issue i have with studies like that, is they never seem to indicate WHAT question was asked.

we even noticed in the TUG survey that just making one or two additions/subtractions in any question changes it DRAMATICALLY!

id imagine i could easily get a positive response on ownership if I asked "Ignoring the costs, how happy are you with your Timeshare while on vacation by the pool on a beautiful sunny day?"

and the exact OPPOSITE response if I asked "how would you rate the sales presentation/process when you bought your timeshare" lol

Or: "given that owners could not log for 72 hours straight (it happened few months ago), how would you rate the management of the company"? The questions make a huge difference of course. The "report" (they do not even call it study) does not make any attempt to claim it is scientific and fair so it cannot be used to defend the industry. In essence it suffers from the same lack of rigor as the "facts" presented at a sales meeting. The same MO.

 

[alexadeparis]

We are holding a family reunion with extended family members joining us over a 3 week period this summer in Hawaii. We have reserved/traded for a total of 6 weeks of 2 bdrm timeshares. This would be cost prohibitive if we tried to accomplish this by renting.

- one member has late stage cancer in remission. This may be the last chance for her to travel to Hawaii to be with everyone.
- several members live in the midwest and have never been to Hawaii before
- we have several seniors in their 70s and 80s, who may not be healthy enough to travel sometime in the near future.

What's a timeshare worth for this family reunion? Priceless

yes, doing much the same - 4 island tour for 3 and a half weeks for 6 people - first trip for some (also midwesterners), last trip for others - impossible without the timeshares. Totally agree with you on the pricelessness of doing this.

 

[ScoopKona]

yes, doing much the same - 4 island tour for 3 and a half weeks for 6 people - first trip for some (also midwesterners), last trip for others - impossible without the timeshares. Totally agree with you on the pricelessness of doing this.

We did three timeshares in China with family (from China). One of the relatives died from cancer shortly after the trip. Put a price on that experience.

Timesharing clearly isn't for everyone. But for those of us who enjoy it, I really wish legislators and busybodies would leave us alone to enjoy it. For instance, "Buy resale." People will scream it at the top of their lungs.

When a new resort in a desirable location opens -- where are those resales? There aren't any. People need to buy them and then sell them for there to be any resale market. SOMEONE has to take the depreciation hit. Same with automobiles. We all know how that works. And nobody is complaining about the automotive industry the way they do about timeshares.

 

[TUGBrian]

Same with automobiles. We all know how that works. And nobody is complaining about the automotive industry the way they do about timeshares.

the ability to buy a pre-owned vehicle is both common knowledge, and universally available in the same sales office/location.

when timeshares adopt that model, ill be happy to stop screaming "buy resale" as there would be no excuse for someone to not know that is an option.

until then, I will =)

 

[ScoopKona]

the ability to buy a pre-owned vehicle is both common knowledge, and universally available in the same sales office/location.

when timeshares adopt that model, ill be happy to stop screaming "buy resale" as there would be no excuse for someone to not know that is an option.

until then, I will =)

When a new resort opens -- let's say in Aspen, to compete with the Hyatt -- where are the initial resale weeks?

That's my point.

 

[Ken555]

When a new resort opens -- let's say in Aspen, to compete with the Hyatt -- where are the initial resale weeks?

That's my point.

We all know this. It’s been talked about on TUG since before I joined. It’s also obvious - someone has to buy direct and pay the inflated marketing costs.

It typically takes a few years to get more than a few resale weeks in the market for a new resort. I’ve seen this happen repeatedly with Westin/Sheraton weeks over the years, and I am beyond certain @TUGBrian has seen it, too, so it’s kinda amusing you telling him about this…


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[ScoopKona]

We all know this. It’s been talked about on TUG since before I joined. It’s also obvious - someone has to buy direct and pay the inflated marketing costs.

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if the developers fired the OPCs and stopped handing out "gifts."

 

[dioxide45]

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if the developers fired the OPCs and stopped handing out "gifts."

Well. Timeshare has no inherent demand. If it wasn't for the OPCs (Outside Public Contact) or the freebies, sales would slow to a crawl. Nothing wrong with that, but the current business model completely collapses. Would there be more demand if prices were half of what they are today (removing marketing and sales costs?), probably not...

 

[Ken555]

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if the developers fired the OPCs and stopped handing out "gifts."

Hahaha how would you suggest they sell timeshares without those? On the merits? The sales staff doesn’t even know the merits, how to use their own systems, realistic trades, etc. If they didn’t have to rely on lying to their customers to make a sale, they would!


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[bnoble]

It wouldn't be nearly as bad if the developers fired the OPCs and stopped handing out "gifts."

I think about this a lot.

I know the value of time for my wife and I to the penny, because we both have Schedule C businesses in which we charge clients for our time. There is no way I am going to expect less than that to take time out of my vacation to do something I don't want to do. But I can guarantee you that there is no timeshare tour on the planet that is going to come within spitting distance of her rate plus my rate for an hour and a half--and that's what it would take to get me to even think about it.

My guess is that there are a fair number of people like me. We could afford a full-freight timeshare, and we might have even bought one if presented with an accurate sales pitch. If you tell me I can come back to this resort that I really enjoy every year, and that even accounting for the time-value of money I'll be saving a noticeable amount over rack rate with a payoff horizon that is reasonably sane, I would definitely consider it. After all, everyone I know who has a vacation home tells me it is more trouble than it is worth, they wouldn't do it again, and most of them sell within about ten years (or less). But I also know I don't want hotel rooms, because I've stayed in those vacation homes and they are better. So this might be a good middle ground. No hunting for a rental on VRBO every year, and no worrying about it when I am not there.

(The VRBO thing sounds facetious. It is not. I was sick and tired of trying to find a condo to rent in Orlando every year, scouring the barely-usable VRBO listings, trying to read between the lines as to wether this particular owner actually took care of their property, etc. etc. etc. The timeshare was going to cost a bit more, but it would be easier and more reliable. Just book it and you know what you're getting---and that was accurate.)

But I am never getting through the door to hear that pitch, because (a) it's clear you have to offer people hard cash to get them to even listen to you and (b) that cash is no where near the number I need to be interested. So who does go? The people for whom that cash is enough---either because they don't know what their time is actually worth, or it isn't worth more to begin with.

Alternative models do exist. Disney is one example. They have an unfair advantage of captive audiences in their theme parks. But, they are not particularly aggressive at signing up tours--I have never been asked at check-in once to attend, over maybe a dozen or more exchanges into DVC resorts. And, they do not offer gifts beyond a bowl of ice cream. Come see us if you think you want to do this all the time, or not, your choice. The problem is I don't think you can be Disney without actually having that captive audience plus Walt's patented Reality Distortion Field. Ask any DVC member why they bought, and chances are good the reasons will include "Well, I liked that it wasn't a timeshare."

So what is that alternative model? I don't know. And there doesn't seem to be much reason for any developer to figure it out, because their current model seems to work just fine.

 

[bnoble]

If they didn’t have to rely on lying to their customers to make a sale, they would!

I think many timeshares could be sold on the merits--and for the prices they sell for now. If the prevailing rental rate is such that owning still makes sense when accounting for it properly, then owning still makes sense. Note that "prevailing" means going to that company's web site and finding a rental. It does not mean scouring the back alleys of RedWeek for Joe who has the perfect deal for me. Most regular people will not put up with that nonsense. (And no, TUGgers are not regular people in this sense, but there are many more of them than there are of us.)

The problem is, it's easier to sell by lying, and there are no penalties for doing it that way. Since this is a volume business all the way down, guess what happens?

 

[bnoble]

When a new resort opens -- let's say in Aspen, to compete with the Hyatt -- where are the initial resale weeks?

I think you can even sell honestly in that setting.

"Look, this is a brand new resort. If you wait a year or two, you'll find a few weeks on the secondary market. But to really get a discount you're going to have to wait until there is a critical mass of available weeks--at the past resorts we've developed, that's been more like four or five years. I can show you the data if you want. If you are renting from us in the meantime at the rates we charge, you'd end up paying about the same anyway. I can't tell you what to do, but your time has value too, and buying from us gets you started right now. Take your time and think it over. I'll be here if you have questions."

Even better if, again, that "paying about the same" includes an honest accounting of opportunity costs. I bet that line of reasoning would be correct at a fair few of the better resorts. And, make no mistake: honesty probably only works at the better resorts. It's not going to carry the day for Mugwump Swamp at Slimey Slough.

 

[Ken555]

I think many timeshares could be sold on the merits--and for the prices they sell for now. If the prevailing rental rate is such that owning still makes sense when accounting for it properly, then owning still makes sense. Note that "prevailing" means going to that company's web site and finding a rental. It does not mean scouring the back alleys of RedWeek for Joe who has the perfect deal for me. Most regular people will not put up with that nonsense. (And no, TUGgers are not regular people in this sense, but there are many more of them than there are of us.)

The problem is, it's easier to sell by lying, and there are no penalties for doing it that way. Since this is a volume business all the way down, guess what happens?

Yes, it's possible. But it's highly unlikely, and as you wrote at the end, there's no penalties for the current sales method. I also don't see the sales staff at timeshares being effective at selling on the merits - it's a different type of sale. There are knowledgeable owners on TUG who buy direct and they do so for reasons they are able to justify, and it's not a snap decision during a sales update meeting at a resort. Sadly, the vast majority of buyers are tourists having a great time falling into the trap of spending tons of money (many don't have and need to finance) only to discover that they can't get the easy to reserve units at the time of year they were promised during the meeting. Those are the people JO was speaking about, and those are the people who represent the majority of timeshare buyers. TUG is a great resource for those willing to learn, but we all know that's just a small percentage of all timeshare owners.