Increasingly disappointed long term owner

[BJRSanDiego]

I dought this is very accurate but it does depend on how you defines usage. If it's the % of members who have used II ever, I think that would be very high. If it's the % that use II in a year, then that would be less but still significant. If one looks at the % of usage that involves II vs non II usage (points/weeks combined) then that would be much lower. I'm sure MVC has that data and one could get the yearly audit which should give some insight unless MVC uses II's audit which would be worthless in this situation. Even for DVC it's higher than 1%, more in the 2-3% range (last I looked) as measured by usage in a given year which is the way the required audit looks at it.

I may be an "outlier" but I own a number of Marriott deeded weeks LO units and I ALWAYS split them and ALWAYS trade them into something larger. Out of 100 exchanges "maybe" I stayed in my own unit once. I own in Palm Desert, Ca., and they generally trade pretty well.

 

[frank808]

I own LO traders all over. Have been able to trade into MKO every week of the year constantly over the past 13 years except for weeks 51 and 52. Weeks 51 and 52 have shown up but usually at the very last minute. All trade weeks (40+ weeks on average per year) have been done as instant trades and not OGS.

Have used II trades (with Marriott deposits as studio and 1br), used deeded weeks at MKO and DC point bookings to get what I need and want. So far it has been working for me 100% of the time.

Agree the MF are out of control compares to HGVC. But the Marriott resorts are better furnished and have a better resort facilities than comparable Hawaii HGVC resorts and units. But MVC Hawaii MF are almost double what HGVC MF are for 2024 in a 2br unit.

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

 

[Dean]

I may be an "outlier" but I own a number of Marriott deeded weeks LO units and I ALWAYS split them and ALWAYS trade them into something larger. Out of 100 exchanges "maybe" I stayed in my own unit once. I own in Palm Desert, Ca., and they generally trade pretty well.

I think all TUGGERS are outliers if we've been doing this a while. We're far more educated than the general membership, tend to be more proactive and likely have a different perspective than most members. Yet we are all different and I suspect the pattern of usage has changed over time for most of us. Those that are more flexible and/or want to visit easy to get items, should be able to use exchanges as their main option and possibly their only usage. For me personally I have weeks I own to use, weeks I own to exchange and weeks to generate points. I use each to their strength in my situation and to complement each other. Once I retire I'm certain my usage patterns will change somewhat and likely in favor of even more exchange usage.

 

[goodbadugly]

Sorry in advance if this is a little long. I wanted to provide some background for feedback and discussion.

We own 3 deeded weeks (all platinum, 2 Myrtle Beach, 1 Aruba surf) and 4,000 vacation club points.

The weeks have always worked well, mostly, and continue to. We either use or rent those out on redweek with 100% success rate.

I have found since vacation club has grown that our preferred check-in day with the 13-month window seems sold out instantly when inventory opens. I suspect (can't prove) that bulk diversions to points are somehow causing this. I also find unit preferences (high floor, particular buildings, etc) are much harder to get, being told there is some magic rotation and maybe next year. In the first 10-15 years of weeks ownership, I got the desired check-in day almost every year and we were always satisfied with unit location. In the last 5 or so years, the opposite is always, and I mean always, the case. Early on we traded weeks or lock-offs a couple of times. Since then, we rent weeks were are not using through RedWeek. That works well, though Marriott is also trying to make that more difficult it seems.

Vacation club points are the main disappointment. We purchased points about five years ago to incorporate some excluded resale units and thought the flexible schedule options would be nice (short stays, longer stays, etc). We managed a few trips in the first couple of years (HI-Maui twice, Newport Beach once).

In more recent years, I have been unable to find much interesting or appealing, or much of anything. Newport Beach is always available; we enjoyed it, but we are not really interested in regular visits. Maui was very nice, but we are on the East Coast and won't do that often (for that much travel, we prefer Europe or Asia, where we go, but not with MVC much). We've used it for pulse locations (DC) twice (nice place, but not a great points use).

My regular searches basically show no inventory all the time unless I go deep, deep into the off-season. We are pretty flexible, but not interested in the very off-season inventory for the same reason it is available. I've looked at the specialized trips and cruises, etc. All of these seem to inefficiently convert your maintenance payment into surplus/discount inventory markets. Every single cruise I found (about 5 or 6 tested) was much more attractive when searching discount cruise sites directly. I didn't see any lift above maintenance fees (I think all the cruises were available for less than the points pro-rata maintenance fees), let alone a premium for having joined the program.

I wouldn't even consider turning a week into points now (and never did that). I can't see any reasonable added flexibility to our existing ownership. While good weeks clearly have more utility than than their maintenance fees, I don't see this with points, let along any premium for the up-front membership.

Does anything see this improving? Could I be doing something wrong? Do I need a different search/request approach?

I'm trying to understand whether this is a post-COVID inventory problem or vast overselling and oversubscription of the points system.

For decades, I was a strong advocate for Marriott and encouraged a few people I know to buy (resale platinum weeks thankfully). Now, I just tell anyone who will asks to simply rent what you want through a service like Redweek with their verified reserve-through-redweek option. I met a family in Aruba earlier this year that had the impression points were as easy to use as booking a hotel, even with the constraints of a young child. They were contemplating a loan. I was embarrassed to even be at a Marriott property after hearing how they were trying to mislead these people.

This is increasingly annoying and disappointing for me, but not a hardship. We like to travel a lot and are quite flexible, but at least the points are turning into a dead end. We are still generally happy with the weeks, but the points seem like a scam at this point (I think we paid 35K-40K). I don't mean a weak product; I mean a scam in the full sense.

Is there a realistic way to get valuable usage from these points or is there some aspect of usage that I'm missing?

All feedback or follow-up questions welcome

Thanks in advance,
Dan

Don,
We have similar holdings that you have (2 Myrtle platinum, 1 Barony gold and 9500 pts). Plus I am a Lifetime Titanium member with Marriott International. Imagine how mad I was when Marriott was broken up into two companies! We use our Myrtle for family vacation. Rent out Barony and either get ripped off booking Collette for tours with our points or rent using RedWeek. We have been to Africa, Portugal and scheduled for SE Asia in Jan '25. My biggest complaint is the ~30% premium that MVC charges for tours, cruises and etc. than booking directly with the provider. Can you imagine what the premium is going to be when Marriott hotels become available to book using MVC points???? We just returned from our annual vacation in Myrtle Beach. NONE, ZERO of our villa requests were met. No one can tell me the criteria used to assign villas. We are Myrtle owners and Chairman and at times are relegated behind folks that use points or in some cases come in from Redweek. I won't start a tirade on the "stories" some of the sales techniques. Which by the way starts at the top! The bottom line is....Don, I feel your pain!!

 

[Hindsite]

Can you imagine what the premium is going to be when Marriott hotels become available to book using MVC points????

No need to imagine, you can already do this and it is trylu eyewatering, give yourself a boost and call them to ask....

 

[bazzap]

No need to imagine, you can already do this and it is trylu eyewatering, give yourself a boost and call them to ask....

It does vary by location and timing though.
You can book a Marriott hotel beach resort in Thailand from 150 points per night.

 

[DRH90277]

I think all TUGGERS are outliers if we've been doing this a while. We're far more educated than the general membership, tend to be more proactive and likely have a different perspective than most members. Yet we are all different and I suspect the pattern of usage has changed over time for most of us. Those that are more flexible and/or want to visit easy to get items, should be able to use exchanges as their main option and possibly their only usage. For me personally I have weeks I own to use, weeks I own to exchange and weeks to generate points. I use each to their strength in my situation and to complement each other. Once I retire I'm certain my usage patterns will change somewhat and likely in favor of even more exchange usage.

Outliers - It would be interesting to view a profile of Tug participants. I suspect that Tug Members generally are not big owners of weeks or points and rely more heavily on legacy weeks, resales, and exchanges. I also suspect they may own more of the smaller non big brand timeshares. Any insight into this?

 

[Dean]

Outliers - It would be interesting to view a profile of Tug participants. I suspect that Tug Members generally are not big owners of weeks or points and rely more heavily on legacy weeks, resales, and exchanges. I also suspect they may own more of the smaller non big brand timeshares. Any insight into this?

My thoughts and it's just my impression from info I've gathered here, other similar places and discussions over the years with members and I'm speaking specifically about MVC branded though in principle, the same would apply across the board to some degree or the other for other systems. TUGGERS are far better educated on average than most and are far more likely to buy mostly resale options though many would have enrolled at some point in the past and many likely got started with a retail purchase. They are also more likely to buy a trading unit and work the II system both with L/O and with exchanging in general. They are also far more likely to own what fits their actual needs than the average member partly because they understand what those needs actually are and how best to accomplish those goals. I doubt they are more likely to own non branded resorts but have no basis other than just impression. As I said, I think we are outliers as a group and that often the average owner is far less educated and less proactive.

 

[jp10558]

Outliers - It would be interesting to view a profile of Tug participants. I suspect that Tug Members generally are not big owners of weeks or points and rely more heavily on legacy weeks, resales, and exchanges. I also suspect they may own more of the smaller non big brand timeshares. Any insight into this?

I guess some polling would need to be done for sure, but based on my ~2 years spending a lot of time on the forum, I get the impressions that most people on here:
1) have at least one purchase from the developer
2) otherwise buy resales probably 90% of the time
3) tend to look for low MFs per week
4) are somewhat familiar with exchanging, but find fees are enough that it's 50%/50% moving to the branded systems for lower fees vs using lock offs and other methods to make it worth the fees.
5) Because of 4 and some members preference for 4* resorts I'd say it also seems about thirds of big systems only, Big systems and independents and just independents.

There's also the ambiguity of at least some HGVC and Marriott owners where you have a fixed week but it's also able to be used for points if you choose to do so. I believe HGVC defaults to points whereas Marriott defaults to weeks in these cases, but there's a lot variations too. Are those "legacy weeks"?

 

[VacationForever]

Outliers - It would be interesting to view a profile of Tug participants. I suspect that Tug Members generally are not big owners of weeks or points and rely more heavily on legacy weeks, resales, and exchanges. I also suspect they may own more of the smaller non big brand timeshares. Any insight into this?

I bought all of my MVC timeshare (weeks and points) and Vistana from the developer. The only resale that I own is Worldmark. Each purchase made sense to us and still do. If I had been exposed to Marriott timeshare before 2010, I would have likely bought resale. But the ship had sailed by the time we decided to buy MVC timeshare. We are at Chairman's Club level which really means nothing much in terms of usage but happy to be there.

 

[JIMinNC]

Outliers - It would be interesting to view a profile of Tug participants. I suspect that Tug Members generally are not big owners of weeks or points and rely more heavily on legacy weeks, resales, and exchanges. I also suspect they may own more of the smaller non big brand timeshares. Any insight into this?

I agree with @Dean that the biggest thing that sets TUGgers apart from other MVC owners is that we are better educated on how to use the system and probably understand the benefits of resale purchases a bit better than the "average" owner (whatever that is).

Beyond that, my sense from reading this forum is that the majority MVC TUGgers (but not all) have found a way to be become part of the Abound points system (either through enrollment or direct Trust point purchases) even though many still find value in traditional exchanges (although I have no specific data to support this general impression).

Personally, we haven't used Interval International since 2017, and now only use our resale weeks to visit Kauai and Maui in Odd Years. For everything else, we use our Abound points (both Trust Points and the points we get from electing our Barony Beach Club week). We have enrolled our Kauai and Maui weeks, so if we ever decided not to go to Hawaii in a future year, we would elect those for Abound Points and use them elsewhere (but we have yet to ever make that election).

 

[1Kflyerguy]

For MVC we are points only owners, and have been pretty happy with our ownership. I am mostly able to book what I want, or least close enough that I am not unhappy. Sure it would be great if the MF was cheaper, and the best view was always available, but that obviously not a realistic expectation...

 

[dan_hoog]

All,

Thanks greatly for all the thoughtful replies. I did get a few actionable suggestions and also generally felt the deterioration of the system is not just my imagination.

As to the system, I think the points program may have further exacerbated the inventory imbalance where resorts have vastly different seasonal values. I suspect many off-season weeks trading into points or being acquired (or simply transferred as unsold weeks) by the trust inventory are being used to show the system is in balance, even though there is much less demand for the low-season among points owners. I think Marriott takes advantage of this overtly and consciously.

Other leaks in the system, as inventory is used for Marriott rentals, promotions, etc., may have switched from favorable to unfavorable effects on owner/member inventory. Since we can't see how inventory is sliced, diced, and mixed across usages, there is no external way to prove this.

On the suggestions end, it looks like we need to consider using II and give waiting list requests another try. Years ago, I didn't like random (low) view levels with II when we really prefer higher-level views. I'm not sure if that has changed.

Overall, our week inventory still works about the same (haven't exercised converting any to points so far), but getting the best check-in day or being satisfied with our room requests hasn't happened in many years. At 3+ trips per year, I'd expect to get the higher end of the view category at least once yearly. It just doesn't happen anymore. We get a view that just barely satisfies the room designation, in Marriott's eyes. We always try reserve on the earliest date at 9:00 AM, even with the 13 month window.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies and comments. We'll continue using what we have, but I wouldn't recommend new or increased Marriott ownership to anyone. With points, just getting your maintenance fee in value every year is hard now. The original buy-in cost has vaporized.

All the Best,
Dan

 

[Dean]

Overall, our week inventory still works about the same (haven't exercised converting any to points so far), but getting the best check-in day or being satisfied with our room requests hasn't happened in many years. At 3+ trips per year, I'd expect to get the higher end of the view category at least once yearly. It just doesn't happen anymore. We get a view that just barely satisfies the room designation, in Marriott's eyes. We always try reserve on the earliest date at 9:00 AM, even with the 13 month window.

Dan

Good luck, I hope it improves and you have better luck going forward. That has not been my experience, I've consistently gotten reasonable options and unit assignments for the situation I have been in. I use weeks, points and exchanges to their strength and to supplement the other options. I do try to keep my expectations fairly low though.

 

[vikingsholm]

We generally do pretty well using our own Marriott timeshare units partly, plus using points in what may be considered off season, but works great for us as places in California, Hawaii, and the southwest which have pretty good weather during those times for our outdoors pursuits. And availability for times we travel has typically stayed pretty good.

I do think the management quality has gone down a bit, but still doesn't cause us any real problems on trips. The rise in maintenance fees seems a concern to keep an eye on.

Two things make me wonder if these have added to the decline though:

1. By adding Westin/Sheraton, I suspect it messed up both their website, systems integration, and just overall ease of reserving and the ability for management to stay on top of it. Plus it probably increased costs. We rarely use those Westin/Sheraton timeshares, and the overlap with Marriott in places that we would go is not helpful in adding any desirable new locations for us. So to me, Marriott owners got screwed by this acquisition and Westin owners got access to a lot more nice locations and properties. I wish they had never done this.

2. I don't know what their rules are, but I suspect Marriott bleeds off some of the points that people elect into too many rentals by Marriott, and doesn't make them as available for other owners to access via points. Others here may know the bylaws better to understand this though, and whether I'm off base and whether they're required to make most of these points available for Abound users rather than just being able to use them to rent out units willy nilly.

Bonvoy has been great for us, as we use those points for hotel stays on long drives in between timeshare stays. They have devalued the points, but we still manage to acquire enough to get a lot of stays on these trips.

So, you can't put me in the group that's not happy with Marriott or MVC generally, but some of the trends are a bit concerning if they continue getting worse.

 

[Hindsite]

On the suggestions end, it looks like we need to consider using II and give waiting list requests another try. Years ago, I didn't like random (low) view levels with II when we really prefer higher-level views. I'm not sure if that has changed.

If view type matters a lot to you, don't bother with II, you might get lucky, but you'll be upset with you don't so just avoid the problem and use a different method of booking. ...Unless you are going to a resort that doesn't have view types or large variations in the quality of views.

 

[Hindsite]

2. I don't know what their rules are, but I suspect Marriott bleeds off some of the points that people elect into too many rentals by Marriott, and doesn't make them as available for other owners to access via points. Others here may know the bylaws better to understand this though, and whether I'm off base and whether they're required to make most of these points available for Abound users rather than just being able to use them to rent out units willy nilly.

As the overall system operator MVC/MVW is required to balance inventory across the reservation categories and to do that they anticipate demand and draw from various inventories to move things around, as well as tactical moves. For the vast majority of reservations, in a relatively stable demand picture, this works well, but if you're one of the small percentage that doesn't it sucks. We saw in the post COVID peak, MVW commit to moving some of its rental keys to owner inventory to try to address the imbalance, and there was some unexpected inventory that appeared after that. Not sure if correlation = causation on that, but it was a statement in an formal SEC type meeting so should be expected to be true. We also see reports of people who leave it within a couple of months of the end of their season to try and book and say there is no inventory, which they are allowed to do. The solution to that is to provide the person with an equivalent week deposited in II.
We know they have the role to move things around and we know they do move things around. More than that, information is patchy and/or speculative.

 

[vacationtime1]

1. By adding Westin/Sheraton, I suspect it messed up both their website, systems integration, and just overall ease of reserving and the ability for management to stay on top of it. Plus it probably increased costs. We rarely use those Westin/Sheraton timeshares, and the overlap with Marriott in places that we would go is not helpful in adding any desirable new locations for us. So to me, Marriott owners got screwed by this acquisition and Westin owners got access to a lot more nice locations and properties. I wish they had never done this.

Funny. For those of us who were used to the Westin timeshare model, the Marriott acquisition was a disaster -- higher prices, inferior and often non-functional reservations systems, and corporate arrogance.

 

[Hindsite]

Funny. For those of us who were used to the Westin timeshare model, the Marriott acquisition was a disaster -- higher prices, inferior and often non-functional reservations systems, and corporate arrogance.

agreement among owners that it hasn't worked well for either party

 

[Fasttr]

agreement among owners that it hasn't worked well for either party

I don't believe Wall Street has seen it as a wonderful thing either.

 

[pedro47]

In the beginning timeshare was fun. Now it is all about big money For the Developers and the Big names Hotel companies.

 

[jp10558]

I don't believe Wall Street has seen it as a wonderful thing either.

This seems to be IMO because it's near impossible to integrate timeshare systems the way MVC and HGV have "tried" to do. With a hotel acquisition they can just fully integrate into the system - there's no legal reservation requirements etc. The only way to really integrate IMO, and a way that no one wants to fund doing (or really see a benefit to doing) would be to buy out all owners of the purchased system and re-start with the purchasing system's rules as new sales. Maybe offer a transfer option instead of buyout but the contracts would have to be re-done.

The next best thing is the hacked on things like HGV Max which has the problem of basically being scraps at 6 months out. I feel like perhaps DEX is going to be HGVs plan to improve on MAX - IDK.

When you can't get economies of scale there's less benefits to mergers IMO.

 

[EZ-ED]

We were very happy with our Marriott Summit Watch private sale purchase in 2003. Many uses and trades until Marriott initiated the vacation club points in 2010 or 2011. I am of the opinion points are easily abused by whoever is in control so we took the opportunity to exit Marriott as well as two other non Marriott traders we owned in 2012. We kept the II membership and used getaways until Marriott purchased II in 2018. II has been downhill since with fewer and fewer available getaways anywhere. So now we have let our 5 year Platinum membership expire and our II membership is about to expire. For those who timeshares still work I applaud your diligence. For us there are easier options for our adventures. YMMV

 

[Hindsite]

In the beginning timeshare was fun. Now it is all about big money For the Developers and the Big names Hotel companies.

I'm a fan of big corporate, it comes with a load of expected flaws, but usually a degree of consistency and resolution paths that just don't exist in the independent sector. If you find an independent resort that aligns with what you are comfortable with that's great, but all it takes is a staffing change to tip that over.
I also like the ability to venture across a number of locations, which can work well with independents, but is more often consistent with larger brands.
There's a price to pay for the preference, but it works for us,

 

[vikingsholm]

Funny. For those of us who were used to the Westin timeshare model, the Marriott acquisition was a disaster -- higher prices, inferior and often non-functional reservations systems, and corporate arrogance.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. Don't get me wrong - the Westin properties are very nice, and I have heard some other Westin owners say that prior owners preferred it before Marriott took over as well.

It's just that almost all of their nice properties that we would consider going to also seem to have good quality MVC properties available too in or near those locations, and the combined company just caused a mess and seemingly higher costs and less availability for our Marriott properties than before.

There may be several Westin/Sheraton locations that Marriott doesn't have that added value that way to some owners, but they don't happen to be ones that we would want to go to.