Increasingly disappointed long term owner

[Pamplemousse]

Can anyone explain why MVC would buy II and then not really encourage anyone to use it? I guess to get people exchanging *it* to MVC? Though that would happen with *any* exchange company I would think.

As an enrolled week owner I think MVC is encouraging me to exchange by making it free for exchanging in brand.

If I lock off and exchange in brand I get 2 vacations instead of just my home week or whatever I can get with my points.
No exchange fee means I don’t need to buy eplus for insurance.
And if I choose to upsize I can end up with 2- 2BR weeks for $300 (not possible simply locking off your home week).

Agree II fees get high when not enrolled- but MVC wants people enrolled.

 

[Hindsite]

Second, the business world has many, many examples of companies purchased and later killed in order to increase the revenue and profits of the parent.

That's what sales would have you believe, but how will they implement the MVC internal weeks exchange platform if they kill II?

From what I have read from the investor briefs, when they do cover II, they find it very useful for monetising short notice and sticky inventory.

There is a lot more MVC getaway and accom cert inventory in II that walks and quacks like MVC owned inventory that isn't available via Destinations escapes, more than 6 months ahead. Why would they do that if they wanted to kill II?

While there may be an attrition as some MVC weeks ownership goes into the points system, there is also a whole world of resale ownership and exchange that uses II, so my guess is it will be good for another 30 years or so.

 

[VacationForever]

I hear your issue, but don't experience it.

Points - If you can't get good points reservations then you are doing something wrong. They are plentiful and with 13 month advantage you should be able to request anything you want and get it. If you are not planning that far out then it is hit or miss. If you are just searching yourself then it is more hit or miss. Some resorts are better than others depending on where they were in the sales process when the conversion occurred. I like Marco Island and have gone 8 times May - September with no issue. Just got back from a 3bd stay with the whole family. They only had ~ 20% of the resort in weeks, so there is always points inventory. Peak time is January - March, but I would never pay for that, I go to Hilton Head then for 90 points a night.

Did you not read my post? Try making a points reservation at Heritage Club for March right at 13th month. I tried every week when it opened up right at 6am Pacific time and came up empty. I am not doing anything wrong. If there is no inventory in the points inventory pool for a resort, then there is no ability to book it. I am a very experienced MVC owner, both weeks and points owner and use II extensively as well.

 

[ljmiii]

That's what sales would have you believe...

Sorry, I was answering the question, "Can anyone explain why MVC would buy II and then not really encourage anyone to use it?..."

And my answer was (1) MVW bought ILG and got II sort of like the prize in the Cracker Jack box...they wanted the sweet and nutty popcorn not the toy surprise.
And (2) For the same reason as any company buys something and then kills it...to make more money.

I was definitely not saying that I think MVW will kill Interval.

 

[dioxide45]

Points - If you can't get good points reservations then you are doing something wrong. They are plentiful and with 13 month advantage you should be able to request anything you want and get it. If you are not planning that far out then it is hit or miss. If you are just searching yourself then it is more hit or miss. Some resorts are better than others depending on where they were in the sales process when the conversion occurred. I like Marco Island and have gone 8 times May - September with no issue. Just got back from a 3bd stay with the whole family. They only had ~ 20% of the resort in weeks, so there is always points inventory. Peak time is January - March, but I would never pay for that, I go to Hilton Head then for 90 points a night.

If everyone did everything right at 13/12 months, then it would just cause more issues at 13/12 months for all owners. It seems that many timeshare systems are setup in a way that so those in the know win out over those that don't. Those booking right at inventory release tend to get inventory and those that wait don't. If everyone was doing everything right, the problems still exist.

 

[Red elephant]

Did you not read my post? Try making a points reservation at Heritage Club for March right at 13th month. I tried every week when it opened up right at 6am Pacific time and came up empty. I am not doing anything wrong. If there is no inventory in the points inventory pool for a resort, then there is no ability to book it. I am a very experienced MVC owner, both weeks and points owner and use II extensively as well.

Does the trust even have that much of Heritage inventory ? I have tried without success as well so just assumed it was not that available in Abound.

 

[Dean]

If everyone did everything right at 13/12 months, then it would just cause more issues at 13/12 months for all owners. It seems that many timeshare systems are setup in a way that so those in the know win out over those that don't. Those booking right at inventory release tend to get inventory and those that wait don't. If everyone was doing everything right, the problems still exist.

As you know, that's the very nature of a flexible system whether it be seasons, points or otherwise. This issue is worse with points because everyone buying/using points has their likely or preferred use time and statistically the majority want the same thing. The more seasonal a resort is and the higher the demand, the more difficult it will be to reserve. At least with weeks there are some barriers to reduce the crowd size. In reality these systems pit one owner against another for all but a fixed week system. MVC is just the manager that oversees this as once sold out, a resort is owned by the members there. Thus we here on TUG are often our own worst enemy as we educate other timeshare owners.

 

[VacationForever]

Does the trust even have that much of Heritage inventory ? I have tried without success as well so just assumed it was not that available in Abound.

It does. I have booked September week in the past through the trust (points).

 

[dioxide45]

Does the trust even have that much of Heritage inventory ? I have tried without success as well so just assumed it was not that available in Abound.

I think one of the problems is with trying to book next year inventory for dates early in the year. Most owners have until September 30th of the prior year to elect their week for Club Points. That means many owners may not have even thought about electing their weeks for points and thus there isn't that much inventory in Abound exchange yet for those dates early in the year.

 

[Dean]

I think one of the problems is with trying to book next year inventory for dates early in the year. Most owners have until September 30th of the prior year to elect their week for Club Points. That means many owners may not have even thought about electing their weeks for points and thus there isn't that much inventory in Abound exchange yet for those dates early in the year.

That's where checking periodically and the wait list come in. It's just another situation where volume adds some additional benefit.

 

[Fasttr]

I think one of the problems is with trying to book next year inventory for dates early in the year. Most owners have until September 30th of the prior year to elect their week for Club Points. That means many owners may not have even thought about electing their weeks for points and thus there isn't that much inventory in Abound exchange yet for those dates early in the year.

Don‘t we assume that MVC does some demand estimating? As a simplified example, based on historical trends, MVC knows approx X% of winter inventory at Y resort gets elected for points, so don’t we think that they make a certain percent of those weeks available via Abound Points even before those weeks actually get elected? Obviously, they can‘t get too aggressive, but I bet they have a pretty good read on things by now.

 

[dioxide45]

That's where checking periodically and the wait list come in. It's just another situation where volume adds some additional benefit.

But this is where people had complaints about II in the old weeks system. Putting in a request and hoping something came throug. Or having to always check for availability. The points system really can't fix overall fundamental supply and demand.

We also have the issue that low season HHI off beach resort owners don't have much of an incentive to elect Club Points because MVC isn't giving them enough to make electing points worth while. They will usually do better in II.

 

[dioxide45]

Don‘t we assume that MVC does some demand estimating? As a simplified example, based on historical trends, MVC knows approx X% of winter inventory at Y resort gets elected for points, so don’t we think that they make a certain percent of those weeks available via Abound Points even before those weeks actually get elected? Obviously, they can‘t get too aggressive, but I bet they have a pretty good read on things by now.

They say they can do that, but we really don't know to what extend that they do. I also mentioned in my previous post that perhaps the issue is more around HHI off beach low season owners simply not electing for Club Points due to the paltry amount MVC gives them for their weeks.

 

[Red elephant]

They say they can do that, but we really don't know to what extend that they do. I also mentioned in my previous post that perhaps the issue is more around HHI off beach low season owners simply not electing for Club Points due to the paltry amount MVC gives them for their weeks.

Yeah I would not elect for club points either and would exchange via II instead. That’s why is important to understand all the nuances involved like you said above trying to book earlier months may indeed be too early since folks have till September to deposit.

 

[JIMinNC]

Going back to the OP’s comments about the difficulty in getting the reservations they want, for whatever reason, we have yet to experience that same disappointment. We have owned MVC Points and resale weeks since 2014 and have yet to be unable to get what we want. Granted, we have never wanted, or needed, to book summer vacation, Christmas, or spring break. Our usage has been Hawaii in the Jan-Mar time frame (using both weeks and Points) and a few other Points destinations in the spring or fall (Palm Desert, Newport Coast, Ocean Pointe, Marco Island, and prior to buying a whole condo there, Hilton Head).

I was expecting difficulty and frustration trying to book Aruba for winter 2025 since there is no Trust ownership there, but as it turned out, searching right at 12 month release, I easily grabbed the second week of March at Aruba Ocean Club, which was our first choice week.

I can’t completely explain why our experience has been so much more positive than others report, but we’ve yet to be frustrated trying to use MVC.

 

[Dean]

But this is where people had complaints about II in the old weeks system. Putting in a request and hoping something came throug. Or having to always check for availability. The points system really can't fix overall fundamental supply and demand.

We also have the issue that low season HHI off beach resort owners don't have much of an incentive to elect Club Points because MVC isn't giving them enough to make electing points worth while. They will usually do better in II.

Nothing short of a fixed week system can fix seasonal demand and that option obviously has other issues. Points gives an additional option and I feel for MVC it's better AND worse than using II. It's often better because you can frequently book at 12-13 months out if you are on top of it but it can also be infinitely more expensive and as being pointed out here, it's far from perfect. For me personally I use each to it's advantage and to supplement the weeks I own and plan to use. No doubt though that volume gives advantages over an entry level situation.

 

[AlmostRetired]

As stated a million and one times we are a beach family and up until she retired , my wife was tied to a school schedule so our travel tends to be peak. I have a couple of traders and the last 4 years frequently rented points. Once you pass the 13 or 12 month window, II and using points are very similar in that it requires frequent checking outside of the waitlist or pending request usage. On both I grab as a best guess and use re-trade on both if I guess wrong. Units seem to pop up during the day that can be grabbed before getting to either waitlist or request. The last point is not a hard and fast rule but one based on my experience, because it happens. We travel very frequently to the Grande Ocean and on occasion the Monarch grapping multiple weeks during the summer. I have never had an issue with using II or points. I use points to get multiple units for the same week I grabbed on II if family joins or creating consecutive weeks with what I was able to get with II. My biggest issue with points in HHI is at the ask for rental points goes up, it is getting closer to rental week costs that is easier to get.

I am an II user for 25 years and a point user for only 4 so I have no history for how easy it was to use points in the past. For me, they both take a lot of time and effort to get what you want, but you can get what you want. At first I liked the point waitlist but it grabs the points it requires so you lose them for use and can only be cancelled by calling. Not a big fan now. A big improvement will be if you can make and cancel waitlists online.
For me, I can be successful with both with time, effort and flexibility.

Last point. A number of years ago I started a FB group on II trying to help members get the most out of it. It now has over 16K members some of which are more knowledgeable then me. A question I ask to join is where do you own (either resort or location). Once answered, it is not captured. If this is not answered, you are rejected. I do not monitor it but a guestimate is at least 40% of the members own Marriott and in the last year, point owners have increased in joining the group. I point this out because I believe many Marriott week owners use II, especially those who own at resorts with lock-outs. I personally have a 3 BR enrolled GC that I use only with II. I get much better value and that is with the unit getting 4625 points.

 

[wuv pooh]

I am not really sure what you are saying here? Weeks owners are pulling from different inventory than points owners are. The rooms are all the same and a weeks owner is always going to get the view that they bought and own. I am also not aware of any resorts that specifically mention Bonvoy or MVC ownership status in their villa assignment pecking order. It also seems that point based reservations come behind weeks owners in that same pecking order.

I probably misunderstand then. My thinking is based on 2 things:

1. There are currently more views available under points than weeks. For ex. Marco Island now offers pool view floors 3-5 vs 6+ which I am pretty sure were not sold as deeded weeks. It may be just because 1 building was built after the points system, but think it applies to the old gulf side building as well. If you have a deed to the old gulfside building, but they now sell 4 view categories I assume the points owners get the view they pay for and the weeks owners get the best available remaining rooms in the building they own. Again, my view is narrow, so maybe this does not happen anywhere and my observation is wrong. Not sure how many, if any, deeded views were sold.

2. I assume there is a priority in current room reservations given to people who are viewed as the most likely to purchase points. The 2 front buildings at Grande Ocean have default views even if they are not sold/listed. I always get an Ocean View above the tree line even though I am not an owner. I assume this is due to my status or the perception that I am more likely to buy points since I have already purchased them or am on an encore package. Again, this is anecdotal but is one conspiracy that I entertain. I would certainly integrate sales and room assignments if I had sales responsibilities but maybe Marriott has a firewall there.

 

[wuv pooh]

Did you not read my post? Try making a points reservation at Heritage Club for March right at 13th month. I tried every week when it opened up right at 6am Pacific time and came up empty. I am not doing anything wrong. If there is no inventory in the points inventory pool for a resort, then there is no ability to book it. I am a very experienced MVC owner, both weeks and points owner and use II extensively as well.

You are not the OP. They specifically asked "Is there a realistic way to get valuable usage from these points or is there some aspect of usage that I'm missing?" because "My regular searches basically show no inventory all the time unless I go deep, deep into the off-season." I believe that something is wrong if that is your experience.

For your specific example of trying to get a specific small resort built decades before the point system with points that is more challenging. We could talk about ways to improve your odds but I am sure you are experienced enough to know them.

 

[Dean]

2. I assume there is a priority in current room reservations given to people who are viewed as the most likely to purchase points. The 2 front buildings at Grande Ocean have default views even if they are not sold/listed. I always get an Ocean View above the tree line even though I am not an owner. I assume this is due to my status or the perception that I am more likely to buy points since I have already purchased them or am on an encore package. Again, this is anecdotal but is one conspiracy that I entertain. I would certainly integrate sales and room assignments if I had sales responsibilities but maybe Marriott has a firewall there.

I've seen no indication that status of any type (MVC or Bonvoy) or judgement on likelihood to purchase has any effect on unit assignment other than that it may increase the likelihood of having multiple weeks/units and that does increase the chances of getting a better option within the category. IMO just making reasonable requests that are not too specific dramatically increases the chances of success. I do know of instances where one has an inside contact at a given resort who can speak on their behalf to improve chances of success.

 

[DannyMc]

Going back to the OP’s comments about the difficulty in getting the reservations they want, for whatever reason, we have yet to experience that same disappointment. We have owned MVC Points and resale weeks since 2014 and have yet to be unable to get what we want. Granted, we have never wanted, or needed, to book summer vacation, Christmas, or spring break. Our usage has been Hawaii in the Jan-Mar time frame (using both weeks and Points) and a few other Points destinations in the spring or fall (Palm Desert, Newport Coast, Ocean Pointe, Marco Island, and prior to buying a whole condo there, Hilton Head).

I was expecting difficulty and frustration trying to book Aruba for winter 2025 since there is no Trust ownership there, but as it turned out, searching right at 12 month release, I easily grabbed the second week of March at Aruba Ocean Club, which was our first choice week.

I can’t completely explain why our experience has been so much more positive than others report, but we’ve yet to be frustrated trying to use MVC.

I agree with you. I am a 35-year owner of weeks and points, and my experience over the many years is that I almost always get what I want and when I want it.

 

[dougp26364]

Sorry in advance if this is a little long. I wanted to provide some background for feedback and discussion.

We own 3 deeded weeks (all platinum, 2 Myrtle Beach, 1 Aruba surf) and 4,000 vacation club points.

The weeks have always worked well, mostly, and continue to. We either use or rent those out on redweek with 100% success rate.

I have found since vacation club has grown that our preferred check-in day with the 13-month window seems sold out instantly when inventory opens. I suspect (can't prove) that bulk diversions to points are somehow causing this. I also find unit preferences (high floor, particular buildings, etc) are much harder to get, being told there is some magic rotation and maybe next year. In the first 10-15 years of weeks ownership, I got the desired check-in day almost every year and we were always satisfied with unit location. In the last 5 or so years, the opposite is always, and I mean always, the case. Early on we traded weeks or lock-offs a couple of times. Since then, we rent weeks were are not using through RedWeek. That works well, though Marriott is also trying to make that more difficult it seems.

Vacation club points are the main disappointment. We purchased points about five years ago to incorporate some excluded resale units and thought the flexible schedule options would be nice (short stays, longer stays, etc). We managed a few trips in the first couple of years (HI-Maui twice, Newport Beach once).

In more recent years, I have been unable to find much interesting or appealing, or much of anything. Newport Beach is always available; we enjoyed it, but we are not really interested in regular visits. Maui was very nice, but we are on the East Coast and won't do that often (for that much travel, we prefer Europe or Asia, where we go, but not with MVC much). We've used it for pulse locations (DC) twice (nice place, but not a great points use).

My regular searches basically show no inventory all the time unless I go deep, deep into the off-season. We are pretty flexible, but not interested in the very off-season inventory for the same reason it is available. I've looked at the specialized trips and cruises, etc. All of these seem to inefficiently convert your maintenance payment into surplus/discount inventory markets. Every single cruise I found (about 5 or 6 tested) was much more attractive when searching discount cruise sites directly. I didn't see any lift above maintenance fees (I think all the cruises were available for less than the points pro-rata maintenance fees), let alone a premium for having joined the program.

I wouldn't even consider turning a week into points now (and never did that). I can't see any reasonable added flexibility to our existing ownership. While good weeks clearly have more utility than than their maintenance fees, I don't see this with points, let along any premium for the up-front membership.

Does anything see this improving? Could I be doing something wrong? Do I need a different search/request approach?

I'm trying to understand whether this is a post-COVID inventory problem or vast overselling and oversubscription of the points system.

For decades, I was a strong advocate for Marriott and encouraged a few people I know to buy (resale platinum weeks thankfully). Now, I just tell anyone who will asks to simply rent what you want through a service like Redweek with their verified reserve-through-redweek option. I met a family in Aruba earlier this year that had the impression points were as easy to use as booking a hotel, even with the constraints of a young child. They were contemplating a loan. I was embarrassed to even be at a Marriott property after hearing how they were trying to mislead these people.

This is increasingly annoying and disappointing for me, but not a hardship. We like to travel a lot and are quite flexible, but at least the points are turning into a dead end. We are still generally happy with the weeks, but the points seem like a scam at this point (I think we paid 35K-40K). I don't mean a weak product; I mean a scam in the full sense.

Is there a realistic way to get valuable usage from these points or is there some aspect of usage that I'm missing?

All feedback or follow-up questions welcome

Thanks in advance,
Dan

Without reading through all the replies and just answering the original question:

Yes, we have had an increasingly difficult time booking our preferred check in day as well as our full 3 bedroom unit at Ocean Pointe since the start of the Abound/DC program. At first we were limited to two out of the four possible check in days. Then we couldn’t even book our full unit for any of the four check in days and had to lock-off our 3 bedroom unit in order to use it. We finally came to the conclusion we could not count on availability thru the weeks program and have begun depositing the unit for Abound Points, then booking something elsewhere.
The sad part is that we can book our desired dates and desired unit using Abound points, but it cost near;y 1,000 points more than what we receive when we exchange our unit for Aboud points.

As to finding the availability we want for the dates we want at the resorts we desire, we’re experiencing the same difficulty you’re experiencing for certain regions or dates. We’d like to go back to HHI, but nothing is ever available. Even shoulder season is difficult. Most of the time I can find something somewhere, but the selection has become tighter as the years have gone on.

I understand the popularity of some areas making booking difficult, but there shouldn’t be consistently ZERO inventory right at the second units can be booked. Having absolutely no inventory or very limited inventory should be statistically impossible.

How much is pandemic related and how much is rental related I can’t say. I will say I’ve been disappointed that the few owners update tours we’ve been on, the salesmen have pushed reserving the very best inventory and renting for a profit thru sites like Vacation Candy. We witnessed similar issues with mega owners at Diamond Resorts who would gobble up the best weeks only to rent them for profit. DRI cracked down on the situation and I. Seeing ,VC begin to put policies in place that might result in fewer owner rentals of the very best locations and weeks. Maybe things will get better for those of us who own to use. I was still VERY disappointed that MVC sales allowed their teams to propagate the “own to rent” cottage industry.

 

[Superchief]

Without reading through all the replies and just answering the original question:

Yes, we have had an increasingly difficult time booking our preferred check in day as well as our full 3 bedroom unit at Ocean Pointe since the start of the Abound/DC program. At first we were limited to two out of the four possible check in days. Then we couldn’t even book our full unit for any of the four check in days and had to lock-off our 3 bedroom unit in order to use it. We finally came to the conclusion we could not count on availability thru the weeks program and have begun depositing the unit for Abound Points, then booking something elsewhere.
The sad part is that we can book our desired dates and desired unit using Abound points, but it cost near;y 1,000 points more than what we receive when we exchange our unit for Aboud points.

As to finding the availability we want for the dates we want at the resorts we desire, we’re experiencing the same difficulty you’re experiencing for certain regions or dates. We’d like to go back to HHI, but nothing is ever available. Even shoulder season is difficult. Most of the time I can find something somewhere, but the selection has become tighter as the years have gone on.

I understand the popularity of some areas making booking difficult, but there shouldn’t be consistently ZERO inventory right at the second units can be booked. Having absolutely no inventory or very limited inventory should be statistically impossible.

How much is pandemic related and how much is rental related I can’t say. I will say I’ve been disappointed that the few owners update tours we’ve been on, the salesmen have pushed reserving the very best inventory and renting for a profit thru sites like Vacation Candy. We witnessed similar issues with mega owners at Diamond Resorts who would gobble up the best weeks only to rent them for profit. DRI cracked down on the situation and I. Seeing ,VC begin to put policies in place that might result in fewer owner rentals of the very best locations and weeks. Maybe things will get better for those of us who own to use. I was still VERY disappointed that MVC sales allowed their teams to propagate the “own to rent” cottage industry.

I had a similar issue trying to reserve my Oceana Palms week this year. I tried to reserve it at 9am the first day the week was available, and could only reserve a Sunday check-in. This reservation check-in was for the last weekend in October, not a high demand week. Since point allocation for Oceana Palms gold is terrible, I don't like to convert to points. When I checked flights, I found FLL fares are much higher on Sunday than Saturday, so I traded my week for Saturday check-in at Crystal Shores. I've definitely seen reduced availability for weeks and points reservations even during traditionally low demand seasons. I learned to check points availability regularly because inventory release dates vary for different unit sizes/views. There is really no way for us to know how MVC allocates inventory, but I'm confident they always have plenty for Encore packages and Marriott rentals.

 

[DRH90277]

We should assemble a list of those resorts where "points use" for reservations in good seasons usually fails. The list could start with OceanWatch in Myrtle Beach and most everything in Hilton Head. I followed the rules with the 9:00 am call on the first day for 13 months and then the same for the 12-month release. I was able to get a 1 week reservation at 13 months and nothing else. We're through buying points and will confine our purchases to resale weeks. Further, if I do this, I won't bother depositing our great owned weeks for points as I won't need many points reservations. This action will only increase the considerable deficit in potential points reservations for good resorts.

Do I think this matters, yes as we can generate over 50,000 points from our portfolio.

Oh, we could also start of list of the easy places to go with points which would include Grand Chateau and many in Orlando.

 

[sail27bill]

I am a long time multiple Vistana owner and new Marriott points owner (2020). I have had great success using points for Aruba x2, Frenchman's Cove, NYC 4 day trip (destination escapes which was a fabulous deal as it was during restaurant and broadway week during the winter time when it was 49-50 degrees), Crystal Shores 3 days, Custom House 3 days and yes HHI for short 2 day summer stays and HHI Harbor point during thanksgiving week for a steal.

I also have had great success with II trading my SVV for awesome Marriott vacations. I am tied to the school calendar but usually use my time for summer weeks and balance time with hotel stays when I want/need it. Is it hard to have to juggle to get what you want when you want--yes. I constantly monitor what is available for points and II for weeks (even with requests in place). However (except for HHI which I wouldn't use points for regularly as it is too expensive), I have gotten great trades albeit mostly in gold season not platinum season. I like the point system as I like knowing what is available immediately, as opposed to waiting months to exchange through II. Is prime weeks better--Yup! The points product is definitely more expensive and requires precision skill at 13/12 months but I am a happy owner. I am considering picking up a resale Aruba ocean club lockoff or HHI week (for day use access as I own a home in HHI). My 2 children are in the twenties and I like taking them on vacation with us.

While it works for me, I am sorry for those owners who are having a hard time using their ownership to the fullest because of the extra effort needed to successfully book a vacation. I only see the value of points if bought resale if one is very flexible. Developer points purchases are crazy expensive, not worth the cost and I feel for those buying direct. (Although in 2020 I bought direct as it was a little over $7 a point because of covid pricing and my explorer package and a hotel stay credit). I believe as others have said, people are becoming more knowledgeable and using their knowledge for better ownership use or renting. This does add extra stress to the system as timesharing is not a flexible product as many believe. As long as I can continue successfully vacationing, I am a happy owner. But I do feel for others who had high expectations and were disappointed. Vacations should be fun to plan, not stressful.