Increasingly disappointed long term owner

[rickandcindy23]

Exactly. I only visit Marriott timeshare via II exchanges using my SDO weeks, which have no Abound or Club points, or renting via II getaways.

Many of us Vistana owners dislike what Marriott has done to our resorts, including the reduction of service and the confusing customer service (just see the recent threads on how to change guest names… it's simply absurd).

I just went through that nightmare of adding a guest name to both Marriott and Vistana. Redweek insisted on both reservation emails. I have no ability to get a Marriott reservation email. That was absolutely ridiculous. Two reservation numbers is nuts.

 

[dioxide45]

I just went through that nightmare of adding a guest name to both Marriott and Vistana. Redweek insisted on both reservation emails. I have no ability to get a Marriott reservation email. That was absolutely ridiculous. Two reservation numbers is nuts.

This seems to be a Redweek problem. Not Marriott or Vistana. Redweek needs to figure their *bleep* out.

 

[WildBigPaw]

This is the 12th year of ownership for us; I agree it's now very hard to reserve desirable weeks/days using the points. I have a simple wish though: I hope MVC owners can tap into Marriott inventories of the same resort, instead of a one-way MVC->Marriott inventory transfer only. Quite often I see available rooms on marriott.com but not MVC Ownership site; that's always disappointing.

 

[Dean]

This is the 12th year of ownership for us; I agree it's now very hard to reserve desirable weeks/days using the points. I have a simple wish though: I hope MVC owners can tap into Marriott inventories of the same resort, instead of a one-way MVC->Marriott inventory transfer only. Quite often I see available rooms on marriott.com but not MVC Ownership site; that's always disappointing.

This is likely related to owners who used points for cash exchange options, excess inventory not expected to be needed and weeks not in the trust.

 

[WBP]

This is the 12th year of ownership for us; I agree it's now very hard to reserve desirable weeks/days using the points. I have a simple wish though: I hope MVC owners can tap into Marriott inventories of the same resort, instead of a one-way MVC->Marriott inventory transfer only. Quite often I see available rooms on marriott.com but not MVC Ownership site; that's always disappointing.

Let me attempt to make your MVC timeshare life much easier for you.

In fact, MVC has every right to make villas available on Marriott.com, that you do not have access to through your Marriott Vacation Club ownership. The MVC villas that appear on Marriott.com, may represent unsold inventory (that MVC owns), villas that MVC has gained control of as a result of default by the last owner (e.g. failure to pay a MVC loan, or failure to pay maintenance fees), villas that were turned over to MVC to rent, or villas that MVC owners surrendered to MVC for Marriott Bonvoy points, in lieu of occupancy. MVC has every right in the world to list those villas for rent on Marriott.com, and you have no ownership stake or entitlement to those villas.

It’s a shame when Marriott is casted as engaged in a conspiracy, or exercising conspiracy-like behavior, when there is nothing conspiracy-like about their actions or behaviors. Not to suggest that MVC is always clean, as there are times that they do not appear to be clean.

 

[gerryburguera]

Let me attempt to make your MVC timeshare life much easier for you.

In fact, MVC has every right to make villas available on Marriott.com, that you do not have access to through your Marriott Vacation Club ownership. The MVC villas that appear on Marriott.com, may represent unsold inventory (that MVC owns), villas that MVC has gained control of as a result of default by the last owner (e.g. failure to pay a MVC loan, or failure to pay maintenance fees), villas that were turned over to MVC to rent, or villas that MVC owners surrendered to MVC for Marriott Bonvoy points, in lieu of occupancy. MVC has every right in the world to list those villas for rent on Marriott.com, and you have no ownership stake or entitlement to those villas.

It’s a shame when Marriott is casted as engaged in a conspiracy, or exercising conspiracy-like behavior, when there is nothing conspiracy-like about their actions or behaviors. Not to suggest that MVC is always clean, as there are times that they do not appear to be clean.

Occasionally, MVC will make BULK DEPOSITS into Interval. We assume these weeks are owned by Marriott and deposited all at once for exchange. We have never understood why these weeks are not in the Trust. Doesn’t Marriott add to the Trust weeks they obtain from ROFR, deed backs, defaults, etc AS THEY GAIN CONTROL OF THEM?

 

[VacationForever]

Occasionally, MVC will make BULK DEPOSITS into Interval. We assume these weeks are owned by Marriott and deposited all at once for exchange. We have never understood why these weeks are not in the Trust. Doesn’t Marriott add to the Trust weeks they obtain from ROFR, deed backs, defaults, etc AS THEY GAIN CONTROL OF THEM?

These are weeks that owners have elected to deposit into II. MVC projects how many of the weeks will be deposited into II and does periodic bulk deposits.

 

[Hindsite]

We have never understood why these weeks are not in the Trust. Doesn’t Marriott add to the Trust weeks they obtain from ROFR, deed backs, defaults, etc AS THEY GAIN CONTROL OF THEM?

Only US inventory can go permanently into the trust.
We really don't know how they decide what goes into the trust, when, or how they use the points that they also own in the Trust resulting from unsold inventory. They are entitled to do with weeks that they own, what they want, then can rent them out, use them to balance inventory across the various channels including Abound and II, as well as ensuring that there is enough inventory in the weeks reservation systems. Their role as manager of the various exchanges means it is all very fluid, as illustrated when they publicly stated that they moved rental inventory into the owner reservation systems to address the peak in demand post COVID.
On balance they seem to do a decent job of enabling most of the people most of the time to get something that suits them, but if you're one of the people who don't, it sucks.

 

[WBP]

Occasionally, MVC will make BULK DEPOSITS into Interval. We assume these weeks are owned by Marriott and deposited all at once for exchange. We have never understood why these weeks are not in the Trust. Doesn’t Marriott add to the Trust weeks they obtain from ROFR, deed backs, defaults, etc AS THEY GAIN CONTROL OF THEM?

The post that i responded to was about MVC inventory that showed up at www.marriott.com

Bulk deposits to Interval International are a whole other issue, as there are lots of reasons for bulk deposits to II. For example, after a MVC sales and marketing SNAFU at Marriott’s Custom House, Marriott and Interval International negotiated a resolution such that Custom House owners that request a two-bedroom villa, at resorts that had one-bedroom villas (e.g. resorts with lock-off’s) would result in Interval International being compensated with the one Custom House week (one bedroom), plus another piece of Marriott inventory. Hence, a Bulk deposit. But, that is just one example of where/why inventory may make its way to Interval International.

Rest assured, MVC has an interest in bringing Interval International exchangers (of certain high quality resorts) into their resorts, to market to them. Hence, there is a value proposition with exchangers, to MVC.

 

[timsi]

Let me attempt to make your MVC timeshare life much easier for you.

In fact, MVC has every right to make villas available on Marriott.com, that you do not have access to through your Marriott Vacation Club ownership. The MVC villas that appear on Marriott.com, may represent unsold inventory (that MVC owns), villas that MVC has gained control of as a result of default by the last owner (e.g. failure to pay a MVC loan, or failure to pay maintenance fees), villas that were turned over to MVC to rent, or villas that MVC owners surrendered to MVC for Marriott Bonvoy points, in lieu of occupancy. MVC has every right in the world to list those villas for rent on Marriott.com, and you have no ownership stake or entitlement to those villas.

It’s a shame when Marriott is casted as engaged in a conspiracy, or exercising conspiracy-like behavior, when there is nothing conspiracy-like about their actions or behaviors. Not to suggest that MVC is always clean, as there are times that they do not appear to be clean.

While everything you said is true, it ignores a vital part of the puzzle: the developer decides which week of the season is deposited into Marriott.com, as the owners do not have control over that; they just deposit a random week. Sometimes owners are frustrated to see prime weeks, that cannot be found anywhere else, up for rental by the developers. Given that MVC is very secretive about how they assign these weeks, owners have every right to complain about it, whether you agree or not.

 

[Dean]

While everything you said is true, it ignores a vital part of the puzzle: the developer decides which week of the season is deposited into Marriott.com, as the owners do not have control over that; they just deposit a random week. Sometimes owners are frustrated to see prime weeks, that cannot be found anywhere else, up for rental by the developers. Given that MVC is very secretive about how they assign these weeks, owners have every right to complain about it, whether you agree or not.

They do have some control but they can only deposit weeks they can reserve under same guidelines as everyone else or unsold inventory. Whether they cherry pick from the available weeks, it doesn't appear to me that they do but none of us have sufficient info to truly know.

 

[timsi]

They do have some control but they can only deposit weeks they can reserve under same guidelines as everyone else or unsold inventory. Whether they cherry pick from the available weeks, it doesn't appear to me that they do but none of us have sufficient info to truly know.

They don't just have "some" control over the calendar weeks; in fact, they have 100% control because they have made the rules that way. They not only determine which weeks of the season are allocated to the different buckets, but in the case of Abound for example they can also do so before any week is even deposited, and the entire process is conducted behind closed doors. By design, the owners have no access to detailed information about how the allocation process takes place and how conflicts between MVC’s interests as mega-uber renters and the interests of the regular owners are mitigated. No matter how much some try to minimize it, this is indeed a very consequential issue. The usage and rental value of the different weeks can double if not triple during the same season, which can make a significant difference to their bottom line and the perceived abundance or scarcity of prime weeks available to the regular folks.

The second part of your first sentence is also misleading. We simply do not know how they book the inventory they control (worth hundreds of million dollars a year), and it defies common sense to assume they do not use automated processes and algorithms inaccessible to the regular owners.

 

[Dean]

They don't just have "some" control over the calendar weeks; in fact, they have 100% control because they have made the rules that way. They not only determine which weeks of the season are allocated to the different buckets, but in the case of Abound for example they can also do so before any week is even deposited, and the entire process is conducted behind closed doors. By design, the owners have no access to detailed information about how the allocation process takes place and how conflicts between MVC’s interests as mega-uber renters and the interests of the regular owners are mitigated. No matter how much some try to minimize it, this is indeed a very consequential issue. The usage and rental value of the different weeks can double if not triple during the same season, which can make a significant difference to their bottom line and the perceived abundance or scarcity of prime weeks available to the regular folks.

The second part of your first sentence is also misleading. We simply do not know how they book the inventory they control (worth hundreds of million dollars a year), and it defies common sense to assume they do not use automated processes and algorithms inaccessible to the regular owners.

No they do not have 100% control, they are limited to the weeks available with the way they are booking them. They can only book weeks within season on the weeks side and only book available weeks within season on the points side. They are also limited by when the week or points is available to them which may be later than for you or I. They are limited to the same timing as you or I. You know you are talking about MVC IT? So basically you're saying they have a flawless system to manage this issue and you're assuming they are out to try to get the absolute best weeks second one and before anyone else has the option to reserve with no consideration for the membership. If you have proof of that accusation, we'd all like to see it. I tend not to subscribe the conspiracy theory's without substance to back them up and I do not see a smoking gun here. I truly don't know how MVC decides what weeks or how aggressive they are trying to secure the top weeks. I know for DVC they hold back on purpose specifically to allow members to book first. I honestly don't know why anyone would do business with a company that they feel is out to get them at every turn, it defies logic unless they just enjoy complaining, being miserable or are a troll. It's not like you're trying to fix the system from the inside out.

 

[timsi]

Of course they can book weeks within a season; that’s so obvious, I’m not even sure why you bothered writing that. The specific week within a season makes all the rental and usage difference, but you pretend it's not a big deal.

Regarding how they book their own inventory, you have to look at the facts and use common sense. In 2023, they reported $570 million in rental revenue, excluding sales packages. At an average of say $250 per night (you have to include low season and smaller units), they may need to book around 2.3 million nights per year. They also have about 200,000 sales tours, and assuming four nights per package, that adds about 800,000 nights. While I do not have the exact number, it is in the millions.

Do you genuinely believe someone stays up at night to book millions of nights every year using the same tools as you and me? Do you really think they don’t set aside inventory for their own rental business? You seem to be well connected with Marriott, so why don’t you ask them? As for me, I do not claim I know how they do it but I find it extremely unlikely that they book such a large inventory the same way as the regular owners.

By the way, I’m pretty sure that even if they use some automated processes to book or set aside most of their inventory (and again, I don’t claim to know that for a fact), they would still need a significant number of people to review those bookings and make constant adjustments for each resort. I’d be curious to know if those employees are paid by the corporate office or by the resorts for an activity that would only benefit Marriott. If it’s the latter, the practice must change and they need to reimburse the resorts for the time spent by those employees managing Marriott’s inventory.

 

[Dean]

Of course they can book weeks within a season; that’s so obvious, I’m not even sure why you bothered writing that. The specific week within a season makes all the rental and usage difference, but you pretend it's not a big deal

Regarding how they book their own inventory, you have to look at the facts and use common sense. In 2023, they reported $570 million in rental revenue, excluding sales packages. At an average of say $250 per night (you have to include low season and smaller units), they may need to book around 2.3 million nights per year. They also have about 200,000 sales tours, and assuming four nights per package, that adds about 800,000 nights. While I do not have the exact number, it is in the millions.

Do you genuinely believe someone stays up at night to book millions of nights every year using the same tools as you and me? Do you really think they don’t set aside inventory for their own rental business? You seem to be well connected with Marriott, so why don’t you ask them? As for me, I do not claim I know how they do it but I find it extremely unlikely that they book such a large inventory the same way as the regular owners.

By the way, I’m pretty sure that even if they use some automated processes to book or set aside most of their inventory (and again, I don’t claim to know that for a fact), they would still need a significant number of people to review those bookings and make constant adjustments for each resort. I’d be curious to know if those employees are paid by the corporate office or by the resorts for an activity that would only benefit Marriott. If it’s the latter, the practice must change and they need to reimburse the resorts for the time spent by those employees managing Marriott’s inventory.

They can only book within those parameters, you implied otherwise. IMO the only question is whether they follow the state rules or not. I see no indication they do not but NONE of us know for sure. I don't think common sense and you're assumption that they take advantage are close to each other. I haven't seen and you haven't given us any facts to the contrary. Common sense does not lead us to where you seem to believe they are. Any employees involved are likely to be paid out of the management contract fee because in this sense MVC is an owner/user.

 

[timsi]

Any employees involved are likely to be paid out of the management contract fee because in this sense MVC is an owner/user.

From my understanding, each resort has a dedicated inventory supervisor. I believe this role should be redundant in dealing solely with owner reservations as owners make their own reservations. If these people are there spending a significant portion of their time managing developer inventory, it's reasonable to request that the developer pays their salaries.

 

[jp10558]

I think at the end of the day this all comes down to how Marriott manages the weeks and interaction with II. When you buy or use points, you know you're going to be struggling to get the best week with everyone else in the system with that season week. With points, you know if you "deposit" into an exchange company you're going to get an average value. Those are what you trade off for getting the flexibility. If you own a fixed week at a Marriott property and you want to use II, do they not deposit THAT week? That would seem very strange to me.

 

[Dean]

From my understanding, each resort has a dedicated inventory supervisor. I believe this role should be redundant in dealing solely with owner reservations as owners make their own reservations. If these people are there spending a significant portion of their time managing developer inventory, it's reasonable to request that the developer pays their salaries.

As I stated, they are an owner also and either offer a service for those that rent their weeks through them or exchange points and for weeks or points they own, they are a member and it is reasonable to expect t them to receive the same service as any other owner. The salaries come from their management fee so they are paying them though ultimately it is funds from owners. As for Inventory Control, my understanding is that there are a few but they manage issues such as how many units can be locked off and minimum stays. I don't see those duties as applicable to the discussion.

 

[timsi]

As I stated, they are an owner also and either offer a service for those that rent their weeks through them or exchange points and for weeks or points they own, they are a member and it is reasonable to expect t them to receive the same service as any other owner. The salaries come from their management fee so they are paying them though ultimately it is funds from owners. As for Inventory Control, my understanding is that there are a few but they manage issues such as how many units can be locked off and minimum stays. I don't see those duties as applicable to the discussion.

If the resort inventory supervisors are tasked with allocating specific weeks for Marriott’s rental business, this represents a service that regular owners do not have access to, so it is reasonable to expect the developer to compensate for this service. It would also be interesting to know if the developer is using tools and methods that regular owners don’t have access to.

 

[Dean]

If the resort inventory supervisors are tasked with allocating specific weeks for Marriott’s rental business, this represents a service that regular owners do not have access to, so it is reasonable to expect the developer to compensate for this service. It would also be interesting to know if the developer is using tools and methods that regular owners don’t have access to.

That is not my understanding of the duties. My understanding is this is an additional duty to others. If you have proof of a smoking gun, you should share both with us and through legal systems.

 

[timsi]

That is not my understanding of the duties. My understanding is this is an additional duty to others. If you have proof of a smoking gun, you should share both with us and through legal systems.

It appears we are in agreement: if this were to happen, it would be a big problem, and potentially have legal and broader implications.

Let's also agree that if this were true, your sources would likely be unaware of it. Furthermore, even if they were privy to such information, it's highly improbable they would share anything with you, so your claim of not knowing anything about it holds no weight.

 

[ocdb8r]

I don't often agree with timsi, but he's right here. MVC does not have to abide by the same "rules" as owners as regards renting, depositing or otherwise reserving units. The Abound Exchange "Reservation Priorities" section makes this crystal clear:

Exchange Company (MVC) shall have the right to forecast anticipated reservations and use of the Accommodations and is authorized to demand balance, reserve, deposit, or rent the Accommodations for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use of the Accommodations or other benefits made available to Program Members through the Program in its sole discretion.

Now, unlike timsi, I do not believe this allows MVC to abuse the system for their benefit. There are many jurisdictions in which they operate that requires the exchange company to be regularly audited (not a financial audit, but an audit of how the exchange system is actually operated) that provides a check that MVC operates the system fairly. What I think is validly frustrating is that MVC has an actual right to set aside some proportion of very high-demand weeks to use for rental or exchange. Some would prefer that MVC ensures owners have access to 100% of inventory before MVC uses it for rental or exchange....and the reality is this would be tantamount to relegating MVC to taking only the leftover low-demand weeks to account for the weeks/points the own and/or receive as a result of outbound exchanges (trading for Bonvoy points, Interval exchanges and/or other "membership extras").

 

[Dean]

I don't often agree with timsi, but he's right here. MVC does not have to abide by the same "rules" as owners as regards renting, depositing or otherwise reserving units. The Abound Exchange "Reservation Priorities" section makes this crystal clear:

Exchange Company (MVC) shall have the right to forecast anticipated reservations and use of the Accommodations and is authorized to demand balance, reserve, deposit, or rent the Accommodations for the purpose of facilitating the use or future use of the Accommodations or other benefits made available to Program Members through the Program in its sole discretion.

Now, unlike timsi, I do not believe this allows MVC to abuse the system for their benefit. There are many jurisdictions in which they operate that requires the exchange company to be regularly audited (not a financial audit, but an audit of how the exchange system is actually operated) that provides a check that MVC operates the system fairly. What I think is validly frustrating is that MVC has an actual right to set aside some proportion of very high-demand weeks to use for rental or exchange. Some would prefer that MVC ensures owners have access to 100% of inventory before MVC uses it for rental or exchange....and the reality is this would be tantamount to relegating MVC to taking only the leftover low-demand weeks to account for the weeks/points the own and/or receive as a result of outbound exchanges (trading for Bonvoy points, Interval exchanges and/or other "membership extras").

IMO that's different. They can anticipate availability but not take things they would not have had access to. Part of the discussion was are they following the rules and anticiapating inventory that would have been available to them is within the rules.

 

[ocdb8r]

IMO that's different. They can anticipate availability but not take things they would not have had access to. Part of the discussion was are they following the rules and anticipating inventory that would have been available to them is within the rules.

Except that's not what you said above....you explicitly said "They are also limited by when the week or points is available to them which may be later than for you or I. They are limited to the same timing as you or I." They are clearly not limited to the same timing as regular owners....being able to "anticipate" means being able to adjust inventory (reserve, rent or deposit) based on their expectations, not based on the reservation rules set out for regular owners.

 

[Dean]

Except that's not what you said above....you explicitly said "They are also limited by when the week or points is available to them which may be later than for you or I. They are limited to the same timing as you or I." They are clearly not limited to the same timing as regular owners....being able to "anticipate" means being able to adjust inventory (reserve, rent or deposit) based on their expectations, not based on the reservation rules set out for regular owners.

Thanks, I have discussed the anticipation availability previously and I see it as different but apparently I didn't word it well. timsi is essentially saying they are not following the rules and stealing high demand reservations. I've seen no evidence of that and I believe that the risk of them doing so would be far greater than the financial benefits.