HRC to acquire Welk Resorts [MERGED]

[TravelTime]

I believe after welk and Hyatt are integrated it will be on the market again.

This is one of my theories too

 

[bradj]

Keep in mind that Welk has three years of unsold inventory at these locations. As it is sold off, availability will suffer.

Also, Marriott's conference call emphasized that they plan to put Welk units into Hyatt's rental markets. They claimed Welk has a very inefficient rental program. This too is going to squeeze availability.

As a long time HRC owner (was HVC when I bought over 20 years ago), I see nothing but dilution of the product I bought. The Welk acquisition will only increase competition for the, sometimes, harder to get, Hyatt locations we already have difficulty reserving. Welk aquisition = bad deal for current HRC owners

 

[macntory]

This could be interesting...


Dave

More industry consolidation does not bode well for members. More consolidation means less customer service and more confusion!

 

[dioxide45]

Actually there are only two bucket
1) HRC
2) HPP
HRC pay booking fees $41 in any bucket
HRC may book bucket 1 at <365 days- - Although it would be rare for a HRC owner to deposit a week at 365 days.
HRC May book Bucket 2 at <179 days via Club to Club Exchange
HRC can request bucket 1 at 18 months out

HPP can request bucket 1 or 2 based on tier
HPP can book bucket 1 at <366 days- No booking fees or cleaning fees
HPP can book bucket 2 at <366 days via Club to club Exchange - $41 "exchange" fees and cleaning fees
at <179 day you can use combination of HPP and HRC points book bucket 1 or 2 " $41exchange fees if using point that is outside bucket"

So HPP can book weeks based HRC inventory even if an HRC owner hasn't given that up to book outside of their home resort?

 

[Pathways]

As a long time HRC owner (was HVC when I bought over 20 years ago), I see nothing but dilution of the product I bought. The Welk acquisition will only increase competition for the, sometimes, harder to get, Hyatt locations we already have difficulty reserving. Welk aquisition = bad deal for current HRC owners

Hard to argue since none of us know how the two will be merged. However, I can't see any scenario where this 'points' group will affect my 'weeks' in any meaningful way. What does 'difficult reserving' mean? I certainly don't see it.

 

[RunCat]

And on that note if they Hyattize those units the MF will skyrocket for the Welkers.

Not sure that I agree since maintenance fees in Welk (points) are not resort dependent. I used to own a week in Sheraton Mtn Vista. Even though the ownership was a summer week, the maintenance fees reflected the extra maintenance that was required during the winter months. When I converted to Flex, the overall maintenance fees actually went down a small amount due to the averaging of the maintenance fee costs at the program resorts.

 

[Shankilicious]

Posts 202-205 just reaffirm my beliefs that fixed weeks and Hyatt system is much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants....

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[Pathways]

So HPP can book weeks based HRC inventory even if an HRC owner hasn't given that up to book outside of their home resort?

Definitely NOT!

 

[Pathways]

Actually there are only two bucket
1) HRC
2) HPP
HRC pay booking fees $41 in any bucket
HRC may book bucket 1 at <365 days- - Although it would be rare for a HRC owner to deposit a week at 365 days.
HRC May book Bucket 2 at <179 days via Club to Club Exchange
HRC can request bucket 1 at 18 months out

HPP can request bucket 1 or 2 based on tier
HPP can book bucket 1 at <366 days- No booking fees or cleaning fees
HPP can book bucket 2 at <366 days via Club to club Exchange - $41 "exchange" fees and cleaning fees
at <179 day you can use combination of HPP and HRC points book bucket 1 or 2 " $41exchange fees if using point that is outside bucket"

Please verify the highlighted - Me thinks you have your buckets backwards

Also, it would help to note for those not used to the HRC system, that HRC does NOT charge any booking fee for a home week reservation. You can reserve 7 nights, 4, 3, or 2 nights, the whole unit, or split it off if it is a lock-off, all with no reservation fee.

 

[Pathways]

Posts 202-205 just reaffirm my beliefs that fixed weeks and Hyatt system is much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants....

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Love to know where in those posts you see that.

"much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants" - as what?

I get the feeling there are some who think they should be able to reserve ANY week they want 3 weeks out. I would help me drink the cool-aid if people would put some specifics to their 'difficult to reserve' comments so we have some perspective. B/C I just don't see it.

 

[heathpack]

So HPP can book weeks based HRC inventory even if an HRC owner hasn't given that up to book outside of their home resort?

No this would not be possible.

In HRC, say I own week 1 at Resort X. For my 2022 usage, I can reserve my owned week starting week 1 2021. For six months, no one else can touch that week. If I decide to book something else, then all of my points are given over to “Club Use” and my unit is relinquished to Hyatt for “Club Use”. If I don’t do anything for that first six months of the reservation period, after 6 months the unit is automatically given up to “Club Use” and you’re given points to spend.

The real question becomes: who can access units in “Club Use”? The “Club” in question was always Hyatt Residence Club, so that answer was easy. Now there’s HRC and HPP.

Logically and legally, it seems that HRC should be able to access the HRC bucket exclusively unless the HRC owner specifically gives their unit up to HPP use (which can be done simply by choosing HPP inventory for a reservation without “converting” your week (I think) or by joining HPP). But it’s not clear to we owners exactly what is happening. Certainly HPP is being sold as giving HPP owners access to HRC inventory, but is this actually happening? And if it is, is it legal?

Again, it’s hard to know what’s happening because:
1. Zero roll out to owners outside the sales format
2. Lies in the sales presentations

 

[Shankilicious]

Love to know where in those posts you see that.

"much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants" - as what?

I get the feeling there are some who think they should be able to reserve ANY week they want 3 weeks out. I would help me drink the cool-aid if people would put some specifics to their 'difficult to reserve' comments so we have some perspective. B/C I just don't see it.

Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what ....
Welk points, do I have enough points? Yes? Book it from 15 months out to 2 days out of available. Which outside of 60 days a lot is.

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[bradj]

Hard to argue since none of us know how the two will be merged. However, I can't see any scenario where this 'points' group will affect my 'weeks' in any meaningful way. What does 'difficult reserving' mean? I certainly don't see it.

To test the difficult factor, try reserving Sunset Harbor.

 

[Pathways]

Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what

You're referring to the Hyatt points owners, which was a recent change in Hyatt sales. It has been universally panned as a terrible system. I can't say anything good about it - which is why based on your comments and others, I hope the Hyatt point system is rolled into the 'Welk' system, not the other way.

Do I understand the booking in the Hyatt points system? I do not. But I don't care as like 99% on TUG, I only own HRC and we DO understand
our system.

 

[travelhacker]

Posts 202-205 just reaffirm my beliefs that fixed weeks and Hyatt system is much more difficult/not as easy to get the week one wants....

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I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I share similar fears to those posts and here's why:

1) 55,000 new owners potentially competing with Hyatt owners.
2) At most 25-30% of the inventory in the Welk trust (Northstar, Breck, Cabo) could be considered to be on par with Hyatt.

I don't want to knock Welk too -- when people bought into that product they knew what they were getting. I can see how existing owners are very happy with their system. When Welk decided to turn more upscale, that's a great thing for existing owners.

Welk for the most part IS NOT what people bought into when they bought Hyatt and that's where the angst comes from.

The vast, vast majority of Hyatt owners would not see giving up their week in Carmel for a week in Escondido as anything close to a "fair" trade.

I spent a couple of weeks a year in Escondido when I was growing up (not at Welk -- but my cousins lived in Escondido). I loved going there growing up. However, it is NOT Carmel. It is NOT Coconut Plantation. It is NOT even a Wild Oak or Pinon Pointe (two of the most readily available reservations within Hyatt).

A place like Escondido isn't even worth the vacation time I would be giving up....if I'm going to California I'm not staying in a suburb that's 30 minutes away from any major attraction....it has it's charm, but it is NOT what I bought into when I bought Hyatt.

Right now, I can get just about anything I want in Hyatt within reason. I've been able to book Christmas at the Hyatt Mountain Lodge, stays at the Hyatt Siesta Key, Fourth of July and ski weeks at the Park Hyatt (that one was COVID -- but still). If I have almost double the owners to compete with and they aren't bringing anything that I value into the equation, of course we're concerned about our ability to make a reservation moving forward.

One of my close friends is staying at the Park Hyatt right now on an HRC reservation. If we've got double the owners to "compete" with and they aren't bringing nearly as much to the table, of course we are concerned about how our ability to book if we are treated as equals in an integrated system.

The last thing that I'll say is that have you considered that the reason you are able to get what you want on short notice is because it simply isn't that desirable?

Again, the exception is North Star and honestly if availability is good from Late December to March -- to me that simply means that Welk has a lot of owners that are not taking advantage of what they own.

 

[heathpack]

Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what ....
Welk points, do I have enough points? Yes? Book it from 15 months out to 2 days out of available. Which outside of 60 days a lot is.

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Yes, and important for you to wrap your head around since you’re now owned by Hyatt.

Hyatt owners used to understand it just fine. Then HPP. No rollout to owners. What salespeople claim can happen with HPP sounds illegal. Are they lying in their sales pitches? Are they breaking the law? Do we not understand the legalities as we think we do?

But. Now that you’re owned by Hyatt you might find yourself in the same boat. You might get no info first, and then piecemeal info. You might go to a sales pitch and listen to a salesman say that now HPP owners can book Welk inventory but you can’t book their inventory unless you buy 600 points for $13k.

So it seems like folks here are trying to give you valuable info but you’re putting your head in the sand and saying “Good thing I’m Welk because my system is easy”. But now you’re Hyatt where it’s all murky and you can’t have confidence that you’ll ever be able to parse out the truth as to how they handle inventory buckets. Prior to HPP, the Hyatt system was easy too.

 

[Pathways]

To test the difficult factor, try reserving Sunset Harbor.

What week do you want? Week 52 was recently available. Any week tougher than that? I own week 47 (xgiving) but wanted 3 units for a family trip. I had no issues getting the other 2 weeks. And I never used the wait list. Others report a very high % of matches using the wait list.

 

[dioxide45]

No this would not be possible.

In HRC, say I own week 1 at Resort X. For my 2022 usage, I can reserve my owned week starting week 1 2021. For six months, no one else can touch that week. If I decide to book something else, then all of my points are given over to “Club Use” and my unit is relinquished to Hyatt for “Club Use”. If I don’t do anything for that first six months of the reservation period, after 6 months the unit is automatically given up to “Club Use” and you’re given points to spend.

The real question becomes: who can access units in “Club Use”? The “Club” in question was always Hyatt Residence Club, so that answer was easy. Now there’s HRC and HPP.

Logically and legally, it seems that HRC should be able to access the HRC bucket exclusively unless the HRC owner specifically gives their unit up to HPP use (which can be done simply by choosing HPP inventory for a reservation without “converting” your week (I think) or by joining HPP). But it’s not clear to we owners exactly what is happening. Certainly HPP is being sold as giving HPP owners access to HRC inventory, but is this actually happening? And if it is, is it legal?

Again, it’s hard to know what’s happening because:
1. Zero roll out to owners outside the sales format
2. Lies in the sales presentations

Thanks. That other post post was confusing me, as it seemed it confused other too. I guess during the >6 month window, how does any availability get "unlocked". I own week 1, but I can't book somewhere else unless they book somewhere else in that >6 month period. Can you book other weeks >6 months? I was almost thinking this worked like VSN (Vistana), where for months 12-8 you can book what you own at your home resort in your owned season. Then at 8 months everything is in "the club". The only difference here would be that HRC is 6 months instead of 8. Vistana has their own HPP called Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex (they have others, but we will keep it simple). In months 8-12 they can book what they own in their trust. I suspect HPP can do the same >6 months out. However with Vistana, all VSN members (weeks owner and Flex) at <8 months can book anything else that is now in "the club". So in reality, HPP weeks that are sitting in a trust should have the same rights and responsibilities as a week owned by a human. They just happened to be owned by a trust instead. So at 6 months, all unreserved HPP inventory should get dumped into the club, but should also be able to book other club inventory. Of course, weeks owners should now also have access to that HPP inventory that is now in the club. Just me wondering here if this is how it really all works (makes sense compared to Vistana and wasn't HPP created under ILG when they also owned Vistana)?

 

[Pathways]

Prior to HPP, the Hyatt system was easy too.

100% - but must add - it's still easy since we don't have to use the points system

 

[Shankilicious]

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I share similar fears to those posts and here's why:

1) 55,000 new owners potentially competing with Hyatt owners.
2) At most 25-30% of the inventory in the Welk trust (Northstar, Breck, Cabo) could be considered to be on par with Hyatt.

I don't want to knock Welk too -- when people bought into that product they knew what they were getting. I can see how existing owners are very happy with their system. When Welk decided to turn more upscale, that's a great thing for existing owners.

Welk for the most part IS NOT what people bought into when they bought Hyatt and that's where the angst comes from.

The vast, vast majority of Hyatt owners would not see giving up their week in Carmel for a week in Escondido as anything close to a "fair" trade.

I spent a couple of weeks a year in Escondido when I was growing up (not at Welk -- but my cousins lived in Escondido). I loved going there growing up. However, it is NOT Carmel. It is NOT Coconut Plantation. It is NOT even a Wild Oak or Pinon Pointe (two of the most readily available reservations within Hyatt).

A place like Escondido isn't even worth the vacation time I would be giving up....if I'm going to California I'm not staying in a suburb that's 30 minutes away from any major attraction....it has it's charm, but it is NOT what I bought into when I bought Hyatt.

Right now, I can get just about anything I want in Hyatt within reason. I've been able to book Christmas at the Hyatt Mountain Lodge, stays at the Hyatt Siesta Key, Fourth of July and ski weeks at the Park Hyatt (that one was COVID -- but still). If I have almost double the owners to compete with and they aren't bringing anything that I value into the equation, of course we're concerned about our ability to make a reservation moving forward.

One of my close friends is staying at the Park Hyatt right now on an HRC reservation. If we've got double the owners to "compete" with and they aren't bringing nearly as much to the table, of course we are concerned about how our ability to book if we are treated as equals in an integrated system.

The last thing that I'll say is that have you considered that the reason you are able to get what you want on short notice is because it simply isn't that desirable?

Again, the exception is North Star and honestly if availability is good from Late December to March -- to me that simply means that Welk has a lot of owners that are not taking advantage of what they own.

I've looked through all the HRC properties on the HRC website and with the exception of the one with the lazy river, I see a lot less family fun at HRC resorts. That's what Escondido and a lot of Welk is based on, family oriented.
I don't think I've seen a resort in Cabo that looks as nice or has as much to do on site as Sirena Del Mar.
So its really all about what one wants in a timeshare.
Northstar availability in ski season is largely due to the large amount of every other year owners. They have an extremely hard time booking outside their use year and you won't easily be able to book Northstar March in mid January by the time a lot of EOY owners pay their MF.
I'll get a screenshot of what I can get in Northstar now in a bit.
Hyatt is definitely top notch for accommodations but from I saw, it doesn't blow me away compared to Welk. But maybe their customer service and the little things on site make a huge difference?
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just stating my side of it.
It's also not like all the Welk owners are gonna stop booking Welk and only be trying to book Hyatt. There are lots who bought to stay at Welk properties and Hyatt will obviously make owners pay to play/trade.

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[Pathways]

I own week 1, but I can't book somewhere else unless they book somewhere else in that >6 month period

Pretty accurate. Exception is there are some who release their week early even without a reservation. For example, what if I want to grab an II trade? A HRC owner only needs 1300 points for a high season 2 Bed II trade.

Think of it this way: Most systems release their weeks to all owners without home priority as 8 months. With HRC, it is at 6 months. Want Hawaii? Be on your computer at 6 months earlier than the week you want. Saturday 3-4am, those weeks are released.

 

[heathpack]

Thanks. That other post post was confusing me, as it seemed it confused other too. I guess during the >6 month window, how does any availability get "unlocked". I own week 1, but I can't book somewhere else unless they book somewhere else in that >6 month period. Can you book other weeks >6 months? I was almost thinking this worked like VSN (Vistana), where for months 12-8 you can book what you own at your home resort in your owned season. Then at 8 months everything is in "the club". The only difference here would be that HRC is 6 months instead of 8. Vistana has their own HPP called Westin Flex and Sheraton Flex (they have others, but we will keep it simple). In months 8-12 they can book what they own in their trust. I suspect HPP can do the same >6 months out. However with Vistana, all VSN members (weeks owner and Flex) at <8 months can book anything else that is now in "the club". So in reality, HPP weeks that are sitting in a trust should have the same rights and responsibilities as a week owned by a human. They just happened to be owned by a trust instead. So at 6 months, all unreserved HPP inventory should get dumped into the club, but should also be able to book other club inventory. Of course, weeks owners should now also have access to that HPP inventory that is now in the club. Just me wondering here if this is how it really all works (makes sense compared to Vistana and wasn't HPP created under ILG when they also owned Vistana)?

A lot of folks release their week early in the process so not all weeks become available at the 6 month mark.

Back to the week 1 example. I might have a want something in II, or have an II request pending, or have a Hyatt waitlist hit, or see something in HRC inventory. In any of those scenarios, I book what I want and my 2022 unit is released to the Club week 1 of 2021. So there’s a little flurry of availability right at the 12 month out mark.

Then for the next six months, theres little trickles of availability as people book stuff in HRC or II.

Then at the six month mark, there’s another peak of availability as the owners who just did not act have their weeks released automatically to the Club.

Since all of these timetables relate to the week owned (rather than the calendar year), it’s constantly refreshing the Club with available units.

So that’s to explain why there was always some availability in HRC year round for Cpub use.

Logically what makes legal sense to me is that:
1. HRC only can book HRC inventory up until 6 months unless you book a HPP reservation in which case you put your unit for that year into HPP (this can be done without joining HPP), or unless you convert all your points in the first part of the year (can also be done without joining HPP). Fuzzy area is what if you buy 600 HPP- are now your other 3000 points all HPP too?
2. HPP can book only HPP inventory until 6 months out, including points which have originated in HRC but were used on a one time basis to book from HPP
3. There is a single pool of inventory at 6 months out that can be booked by HPP or HRC

But HPP owners seem to think they can book HRC units at times when HRC people can’t. It’s all murky because maybe that’s true- they’re accessing my HRC unit because I gave my unit up to make a HPP reservation. An HPP owners access to that unit would be fair enough. But if I used my HRC unit to book another HRC unit, then IMO HRC owners should have exclusive rights to that for the first 6 months. It seems there’s no way you can figure this out. When you book on the HRC website, the inventory is labeled as Portfolio (ie HPP) or Hyatt Residence Club (HRC) but the question is: if I give up my HRC week to book a HPP reservation, how would my deposit be labeled in inventory- as HPP or HRC?

And all of that speculation is for available on line inventory. We can’t ever really see what they’re doing with waitlist requests. Could they be poaching HRC inventory at the 12 month mark to fill HPP requests? Yes they could be and we’d never know.

 

[Pathways]

I'll get a screenshot of what I can get in Northstar now in a bit.

Don't bother as Covid time bookings are a complete anomaly. Even the Hyatt in Maui has been an easy reservation this entire winter.

It's also not like all the Welk owners are gonna stop booking Welk and only be trying to book Hyatt.

That's what Escondido and a lot of Welk is based on, family oriented.

I think these are great observations. That's why I am less concerned than others here. If Welk owners were pining for a Hyatt resort, they would have bought there.

I understand the numbers create concern, but with HRC I not only own the week I bought, but the actual unit/view. No consolidation can take that away. (Can't say that about a points system)

Prices are great right now - I have three weeks submitted to ROFR. Buy a unit where you want, when you want. I have wanted Carmel for a long time, but only a full ocean view and a late summer/fall week. The price finally dropped to where I jumped on it.

 

[heathpack]

100% - but must add - it's still easy since we don't have to use the points system

I mean “easy to understand”.

I think I understand HPP and HRC only to constantly hear stuff to the contrary from HPP owners. Definitely what people take away from HRC sales pitches sounds illegal to me. So is Hyatt acting legally, and HPP owners have been sold a bill of goods, and they think the reservations they’re getting are coming from HRC inventory but it’s real only HPP inventory? Or is Hyatt acting illegally, giving HRC inventory to HPP owners via the waitlist mechanism? Or am I wrong in thinking that is actually illegal?

Im glad it’s all easy for you to understand. But to me, it’s murky.

 

[RunCat]

From what I have read so far, I have come to the following conclusions:
a) Hyatt owners believe that they have a far superior product to what Welk currently offers.
b) Hyatt owners are concerned about how an influx of Welk point owners will impact their ability to use the product.
c) There is much angst from both Welk and Hyatt owners about how a predominantly points system will merge with a predominantly weeks system.
d) Neither side is happy about this merger.

However, none of us really know what is going to happen. Points, reservation windows, ownership tiers, resorts trusts, will all have to change in order for this new system to work. (eg, some Welk Owners can book 22 months in advance. All Welk owners can book 15 months in advance. How does that work with the Hyatt system?). My suspicion is that for each of the programs currently in place, nothing will change; everyone will keep what they have. Instead, a "new" program will be created that will allow for cross platform reservations and there will be a buy-in cost. And finally, escrow has not yet closed on the deal. Things can still change.