HRC to acquire Welk Resorts [MERGED]

[dioxide45]

A lot of folks release their week early in the process so not all weeks become available at the 6 month mark.

So you can release your week to "the club", but not make a booking at that time? Then when something comes available, then you can book it? Or do you need to book at the time of release?

Back to the week 1 example. I might have a want something in II, or have an II request pending, or have a Hyatt waitlist hit, or see something in HRC inventory. In any of those scenarios, I book what I want and my 2022 unit is released to the Club week 1 of 2021. So there’s a little flurry of availability right at the 12 month out mark.

Then for the next six months, theres little trickles of availability as people book stuff in HRC or II.

Then at the six month mark, there’s another peak of availability as the owners who just did not act have their weeks released automatically to the Club.

Since all of these timetables relate to the week owned (rather than the calendar year), it’s constantly refreshing the Club with available units.

So that’s to explain why there was always some availability in HRC year round for Cpub use.

Logically what makes legal sense to me is that:
1. HRC only can book HRC inventory up until 6 months unless you book a HPP reservation in which case you put your unit for that year into HPP (this can be done without joining HPP), or unless you convert all your points in the first part of the year (can also be done without joining HPP). Fuzzy area is what if you buy 600 HPP- are now your other 3000 points all HPP too?
2. HPP can book only HPP inventory until 6 months out, including points which have originated in HRC but were used on a one time basis to book from HPP
3. There is a single pool of inventory at 6 months out that can be booked by HPP or HRC

1. Based on how other systems work here and my understanding of trust based timeshare system, how can HRC book a week that is sitting in HPP >6 months out? (see #2)
2. I would think that at >6 months out that HPP could release their inventory to the club, just like an weeks owner could do. That inventory then becomes available to HRC owners, but of course HPP now has rights to a week in HRC. HRC could also book a week in HRC but some week of equivalent points has to move from HPP to HRC.
3. This makes sense and would be how Vistana works also

Marriott is kind of unique. They essentially dump almost all DC trust inventory into "the club" (aka DC Exchange Company) at 12 months out. There are likely exceptions, but the system is very fluid. The difference here though is that Marriott allowed weeks owners (HRC equivalent) to enroll for a fee).

But HPP owners seem to think they can book HRC units at times when HRC people can’t. It’s all murky because maybe that’s true- they’re accessing my HRC unit because I gave my unit up to make a HPP reservation. An HPP owners access to that unit would be fair enough. But if I used my HRC unit to book another HRC unit, then IMO HRC owners should have exclusive rights to that for the first 6 months. It seems there’s no way you can figure this out. When you book on the HRC website, the inventory is labeled as Portfolio (ie HPP) or Hyatt Residence Club (HRC) but the question is: if I give up my HRC week to book a HPP reservation, how would my deposit be labeled in inventory- as HPP or HRC?

And all of that speculation is for available on line inventory. We can’t ever really see what they’re doing with waitlist requests. Could they be poaching HRC inventory at the 12 month mark to fill HPP requests? Yes they could be and we’d never know.

I think here though is that a week owned by a trust has the same rights as a week owned by an individual. HPP could book inventory that a week owner gave up to the club as long as HPP offers a week up to the club in exchange, thus making that week also available to HRC.

As you say, there is very little transparency in the system. I think the reason that Hyatt didn't offer "enrollment" like Marriott did is because they already had a points based club (HRC). Vistana was the same. They didn't offer any kind of enrollment for their Westin or Sheraton Flex programs. I think that HPP and the two Vistana Flex programs suffer from the same problems, there is really no reason why someone that can already book using points should really need to buy into them.

ETA: I think there are actually three buckets of inventory here

• Weeks Owners - No one can touch unless you book something from the club or release your week to the club. Not yet released to the club.
• HRC - Weeks released to the club
• HPP - Weeks owned by the trust and not yet available in the club

Weeks inventory isn't necessarily HRC. Does this make sense?

 

[Pathways]

Im glad it’s all easy for you to understand. But to me, it’s murky.

Note I said 'easy' b/c I don't play in the HPP part. I don't believe anyone truly understands what is going on the the HPP system. Most of the sales staff is clueless - others act like they know, but you can't really push back on their interpretation b/c no one has any facts.

My weeks work great, trades have been acceptable. I have no need to utilize the HPP

 

[Pathways]

So you can release your week to "the club", but not make a booking at that time? Then when something comes available, then you can book it? Or do you need to book at the time of release?

Correct - you can release at any time and do nothing else

 

[bradj]

I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.

 

[dioxide45]

I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.

Just to be precise, because there are a lot of acronyms used here, there is no HVC. I think you mean HRC or Hyatt. HVC could also be confused for Hilton. In reality, these are businesses that can be bought and sold. The management rights to resorts can be bought and sold. Your resort is a condo and has an underlying HOA. The resort is owned by the owners. Though the developer may still own inventory in the condo and may even own common, retail or food and beverage space. That unsold inventory can be sold to another developer.

I do agree, that Marriott Vacations Worldwide isn't buying Welk to improve the product for Hyatt owners. Though some may get benefits from it if they have new resorts to book. They want to make the company more valuable. Potentially for a spinoff, but no one knows if that is their plan. Hyatt is a pretty small network of resorts, adding Welk still doesn't bring it to the scale of Marriott Vacation Club, Wyndham or Hilton Grand Vacations. Though it could make it viable for a spinoff down the road.

 

[Pathways]

I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.

Of course not. Remember, you didn't buy HVC (now called HRC). You bought Beach House from Spottswood Development. Your elected BOD can leave the (now) HRC anytime when the management contract is up and be a stand alone resort!

If Hyatt, (now MVC) buys enough weeks at your resort to put into the points system and has enough votes to control the BOD, then the resort will more or less be a 'Marriott' resort.

We all know the bottom line here is selling more points

 

[Kal]

Hyatt owners don't seem to be sure which part of their system can book what ....
Welk points, do I have enough points? Yes? Book it from 15 months out to 2 days out of available. Which outside of 60 days a lot is.

Your description of the Welk booking process is EXACTLY the same as HRC.

The vast majority of HRC owners know how the system works. It's fairly simple where you need to plan ahead and use the request list for the difficult resort-weeks to book. Otherwise, if you have points in your account, search for availability and book what you see.

 

[seatrout]

So you can release your week to "the club", but not make a booking at that time? Then when something comes available, then you can book it? Or do you need to book at the time of release?

1. Based on how other systems work here and my understanding of trust based timeshare system, how can HRC book a week that is sitting in HPP >6 months out? (see #2)
2. I would think that at >6 months out that HPP could release their inventory to the club, just like an weeks owner could do. That inventory then becomes available to HRC owners, but of course HPP now has rights to a week in HRC. HRC could also book a week in HRC but some week of equivalent points has to move from HPP to HRC.
3. This makes sense and would be how Vistana works also

Marriott is kind of unique. They essentially dump almost all DC trust inventory into "the club" (aka DC Exchange Company) at 12 months out. There are likely exceptions, but the system is very fluid. The difference here though is that Marriott allowed weeks owners (HRC equivalent) to enroll for a fee).



I think here though is that a week owned by a trust has the same rights as a week owned by an individual. HPP could book inventory that a week owner gave up to the club as long as HPP offers a week up to the club in exchange, thus making that week also available to HRC.

As you say, there is very little transparency in the system. I think the reason that Hyatt didn't offer "enrollment" like Marriott did is because they already had a points based club (HRC). Vistana was the same. They didn't offer any kind of enrollment for their Westin or Sheraton Flex programs. I think that HPP and the two Vistana Flex programs suffer from the same problems, there is really no reason why someone that can already book using points should really need to buy into them.

ETA: I think there are actually three buckets of inventory here

• Weeks Owners - No one can touch unless you book something from the club or release your week to the club. Not yet released to the club.
• HRC - Weeks released to the club
• HPP - Weeks owned by the trust and not yet available in the club

Weeks inventory isn't necessarily HRC. Does this make sense?

clarification on your buckets. It is no different than Marriott DC buckets

1. Weeks owner—. Correct
2. HRC inventory - Correct
3. HPP inventory. - pure HPP from trust owner’. Unsold developer inventory, Week owner that convert their inventory to HPP that year

Hyatt then created an exchange company — base on my understanding of the exchange agreement
HPP have access to HRC inventory during the club use period. the Exchange agreement allow HRC to exchange to HPP at 6 month mark. The exchange agreements favor HPP

neither side can touch weeks home club use inventory until they are release to either HPP or HRC

that being said, any unsold build up inventory by Welk will become HPP inventory

 

[Tenga]

I don't recall when I read the terms and conditions when I bought my HVC in 2000 that it was OK for a Marriott to buy another timeshare group, slap it on Hyatt, to improve its appearance on paper, then spin it off and sell it. Let's get real. Ain't no way that Marriott is buying Welk just to enhance your (Hyatt) vacation experience.

Hey Bradi, I'm willing to bet you a nice steak dinner that you and 99.97 percent of HRC owners are not aware that they have been without active club leadership for over 18 months now! Yup no president, John Burlingame, gone! No secretary, gone! No treasure, gone! HRC management system has been eroded away to just 3 region's divisional manager's. East, West and Hawaii, these 3 regional managers take there orders from Marriott Vacation Club CEO Stephen P Weisz.
BTW I 100 percent agree with you that MVC has had 4 years to enhance our Hyatt vacation experience and could not do it! So its gearing up to unload for a profit of course, after all its responsible to its shareholders not club members!
Regards,
Tenga

 

[Shankilicious]

Your description of the Welk booking process is EXACTLY the same as HRC.

The vast majority of HRC owners know how the system works. It's fairly simple where you need to plan ahead and use the request list for the difficult resort-weeks to book. Otherwise, if you have points in your account, search for availability and book what you see.

There is no request list and no different buckets and plenty of inventory to pull from for Welk owners. I've never heard anyone have to be on at a certain time exactly a year out of the maximum time out to have a good chance of getting the unit they want. It's just not an issue because of the maximum flexibility of a system that is nearly entirely points. (I know statistically 25% of owners have weeks but I believe 75% of those weeks owners also own points.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

 

[seatrout]

Please verify the highlighted - Me thinks you have your buckets backwards

Also, it would help to note for those not used to the HRC system, that HRC does NOT charge any booking fee for a home week reservation. You can reserve 7 nights, 4, 3, or 2 nights, the whole unit, or split it off if it is a lock-off, all with no reservation fee.

HPP is trying to copy the Marriott DC

HRC has Booking fees, lock off and canceling fees, you can also only book 2,3,4,7 night

HPP is the new system. when use HPP point to book HPP inventory. There is no booking fees, you are allow several free cancellations depending on tier. You are also allow several free cleaning fees or so call lock off fees. However when you use HPP to book HRC inventory then charges ret

 

[dioxide45]

clarification on your buckets. It is no different than Marriott DC buckets

1. Weeks owner—. Correct
2. HRC inventory - Correct
3. HPP inventory. - pure HPP from trust owner’. Unsold developer inventory, Week owner that convert their inventory to HPP that year

Hyatt then created an exchange company — base on my understanding of the exchange agreement
HPP have access to HRC inventory during the club use period. the Exchange agreement allow HRC to exchange to HPP at 6 month mark. The exchange agreements favor HPP

neither side can touch weeks home club use inventory until they are release to either HPP or HRC

that being said, any unsold build up inventory by Welk will become HPP inventory

How can a week owner convert their inventory to HPP? Do they also have to own HPP to do so?

It seems that Hyatt may have created two exchange companies here? You mention HRC. That is essentially an exchange company for weeks based intervals. HPP is a trust, not sure how a week owner can convert their week to a trust in a given year. There may be another exchange company for HPP?

 

[Pathways]

It's just not an issue because of the maximum flexibility of a system that is nearly entirely points.

OK - Here is where we part ways. It has NOTHING to do with 'maximum flexibility'. It's called 'supply and demand'. Your system clearly has more units available at a location than owners requesting them. It's that simple.

 

[VacationForever]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I have stayed at the Escondido (not really San Diego) and the Palm Springs (but not really PS) locations. I would in no way consider those two to be on par with my expectations for a Hyatt location.

Ditto. I refuse to go back to Welk in Palm Springs and Escondido - leaky roof, cobwebs and black mold in the units.

 

[travelhacker]

I've looked through all the HRC properties on the HRC website and with the exception of the one with the lazy river, I see a lot less family fun at HRC resorts. That's what Escondido and a lot of Welk is based on, family oriented.
I don't think I've seen a resort in Cabo that looks as nice or has as much to do on site as Sirena Del Mar.
So its really all about what one wants in a timeshare.
Northstar availability in ski season is largely due to the large amount of every other year owners. They have an extremely hard time booking outside their use year and you won't easily be able to book Northstar March in mid January by the time a lot of EOY owners pay their MF.
I'll get a screenshot of what I can get in Northstar now in a bit.
Hyatt is definitely top notch for accommodations but from I saw, it doesn't blow me away compared to Welk. But maybe their customer service and the little things on site make a huge difference?
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just stating my side of it.
It's also not like all the Welk owners are gonna stop booking Welk and only be trying to book Hyatt. There are lots who bought to stay at Welk properties and Hyatt will obviously make owners pay to play/trade.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

These are good points.

To your point about family resorts there are 2 GREAT family resorts:
- Coconut Plantation (Bonita Springs)
- Wild Oak Ranch

Coconut Plantation has an amazing lazy river, beautiful pools, and is in a really fun location. You also get shared use of the Hyatt Regency Coconut Plantation pools and waterslides. The waterslides there are water park quality and A LOT of fun.

I haven't been to Wild Oak Ranch, but it appears there is quite a bit to do in the area. Wild Oak Ranch has a lazy river and indoor water slide that I am certain our young kids will LOVE.

I think you could also make an argument for the Beaver Creek resorts as great family resorts. They don't have waterslides or fun activities, but they are in a middle of a resort that markets to families. There are several free activities daily that Beaver Creek ski resort offers. There are also low cost fun, family activities like their rodeo.

While I do think our kids would enjoy staying at the Welk resort in Branson with indoor pool and waterslide, to me it doesn't really compare favorably to the existing family resorts in the Hyatt system so I would prioritize stays at those locations.

For me the extras are the top notch accommodations at a reasonable price. I am able to take advantage of low season, but I would guess that my average cost per night for my stays in HRC properties thus far has been around $75 per night (this is unique because of mountain time in the Hyatt system). If you have a low maintenance fee week with a good number of points in Hyatt and avoid Saturdays, it's very possible to average about $130 or so per night without a whole lot of effort.

 

[Kal]

The entire dialog is based on no knowledge of the Hyatt/Welk agreement. All we know is HPP is totally based on points ownership (with weeks held in Trust). HRC is totally based on deeded week ownership. Welk brings owners in two categories: points ownership (with weeks held in Trust) [75%] and deeded week ownership [25%].

So how does one merge those Welk groups into Hyatt? Seems to me, the points owners go into HPP and the weeks owners go into HRC. Each group adds value to the Hyatt system. The operational details become a real challenge....

Entry into the HPP points system could upset either side due to fees. HPP owners would be outraged if Welk points owners got in at a low fee. Welk owners would be outraged if they had to pay $13,000. Let the sausage making begin.

Entry into the HRC weeks system could cause heartburn depending how HRC valuates each Welk property and new restrictions on booking timelines. HRC owners might have issues with an influx of new "competitors" for existing availability of HRC properties.

My take is that the Welk program will remain as a stand alone function. That's the easy way out while still enhancing the "corporate portfolio" of holdings.

 

[bradj]

You're referring to the Hyatt points owners, which was a recent change in Hyatt sales. It has been universally panned as a terrible system. I can't say anything good about it - which is why based on your comments and others, I hope the Hyatt point system is rolled into the 'Welk' system, not the other way.

Do I understand the booking in the Hyatt points system? I do not. But I don't care as like 99% on TUG, I only own HRC and we DO understand
our system.

To put it simply, the only thing that you need to understand is that once you buy HPP points they have no value. ZERO!

 

[Pathways]

HRC has Booking fees, lock off and canceling fees, you can also only book 2,3,4,7 night

No booking fees unless you exchange your owned week to a different one. No such thing as a 'lock off fee'

HPP is the new system. when use HPP point to book HPP inventory. There is no booking fees, you are allow several free cancellations depending on tier

Free cancels are ONLY when you cancel 90 days out. Otherwise $51.

You are also allow several free cleaning fees or so call lock off fees

Only 1 free unless you own more than 2200 points, 2 up to 4400 etc.

Accurate from the original HPC docs unless they have adjusted them

 

[seatrout]

How can a week owner convert their inventory to HPP? Do they also have to own HPP to do so?

It seems that Hyatt may have created two exchange companies here? You mention HRC. That is essentially an exchange company for weeks based intervals. HPP is a trust, not sure how a week owner can convert their week to a trust in a given year. There may be another exchange company for HPP?

Once you "hyattized" your account - which required to buy some HPP points - in my case 500 point

Your account now have three inventory
1. Weeks
2. HRC (weeks that you have convert to HRC points)
2. HPP

Every year- just as in Marriott DC. You can "elect" the week to HRC or HPP OR reserve your home club week. Once they are in HPP bucket -- it make no different if they are HPP that you deposit, HPP that you purchased from trust. (Since you have to buy some HPP trust bucket to play the game anyway-- they did not have to scare us like Marriott where there is a "trust DC bucket" and "enrolled owner DC deposit bucket"
The new "Club to Club exchange" only occurs when you exchange between HRC and HPP

Once in HPP- you can also convert those to Hyatt hotel point

Hope that help

 

[seatrout]

Free cancels are ONLY when you cancel 90 days out. Otherwise $51.



Only 1 free unless you own more than 2200 points, 2 up to 4400 etc.

Accurate from the original HPC docs unless they have adjusted them

You are correct, the number of "free stuff" is tier dependent.

 

[bradj]

What week do you want? Week 52 was recently available. Any week tougher than that? I own week 47 (xgiving) but wanted 3 units for a family trip. I had no issues getting the other 2 weeks. And I never used the wait list. Others report a very high % of matches using the wait list.

You're lucky! Owning week 47 gives you some pretty good opportunities to book around your deeded week. Both sides (45-46 & 48-50) are lower demand weeks.

 

[Pathways]

This thread is more about Welk to Hyatt, Not HRC vs HPC but,

I viewed the the points club like the Disney Dining Plan. Buy it and a lot of fees can go away. But when I added those fees up and compared them to the much higher $/pt MF, I said 'never mind' . I could never spend that much in fees.

 

[Pathways]

You're lucky! Owning week 47 gives you some pretty good opportunities to book around your deeded week. Both sides (45-46 & 48-50) are lower demand weeks.

True, but I was concerned about getting the 3 Thanksgiving weeks. Its an easy grab at Beach House or Windward Point, but I want them all at SH. Every year we have tried, I got all 3. (Everyone is still working, so the side weeks don't work for us.)

 

[Pathways]

You are correct, the number of "free stuff" is tier dependent

Again, away from the thread subject, but..

I was told even if I 'Hyattize to points' my weeks in the ownership, the tier for free stuff changes each year depending on whether I actually turn my week into points. Is that correct?

 

[Tenga]

The entire dialog is based on no knowledge of the Hyatt/Welk agreement. All we know is HPP is totally based on points ownership (with weeks held in Trust). HRC is totally based on deeded week ownership. Welk brings owners in two categories: points ownership (with weeks held in Trust) [75%] and deeded week ownership [25%].

So how does one merge those Welk groups into Hyatt? Seems to me, the points owners go into HPP and the weeks owners go into HRC. Each group adds value to the Hyatt system. The operational details become a real challenge....

Entry into the HPP points system could upset either side due to fees. HPP owners would be outraged if Welk points owners got in at a low fee. Welk owners would be outraged if they had to pay $13,000. Let the sausage making begin.

Entry into the HRC weeks system could cause heartburn depending how HRC valuates each Welk property and new restrictions on booking timelines. HRC owners might have issues with an influx of new "competitors" for existing availability of HRC properties.

My take is that the Welk program will remain as a stand alone function. That's the easy way out while still enhancing the "corporate portfolio" of holdings.

Hi Kal, Stephen Weisz a 35 year Marriott company man knows that if he keeps both programs "HRC/Welk" as stand alone, no buyer would be willing to pick up that trud, making it almost impossible to sell. IMO he has no choice but to integrate at the expense to both the HRC and Welk owners to keep MVC corporate shareholders and him out of the hot seat. If I was in his shoes, I'd do the same, Weisz has no choice but to bring Welk into HRC. It will be painful no doubt, and the final product will be a loss for all the owners involved. But the new owner of the now combined products/who ever that maybe, can pick up here and move forward! No one wants to buy a broken down club!
Regards,
Tenga