How.?.Why?..has your timeshare DEVALUED since purchase..and is it fair ???

[dan_hoog]

Alan,

I actually was kidding -- I'll add a smily face... Of course, I wouldn't get too irritated over a downgrade from box wine to Kool Aid, if everything else was equal. I was also kidding about the distinction between new and resale.

I actually don't exchange anymore. We've always been treated fine, but one time got a garden view. We own top views and I don't like the roulette with II. Off topic, but do any independent exchange firms have view selection and take view into consideration for trading power?

-Dan

Terrible idea.

The timeshare exchange guest is the owner's surrogate & as such should get everything & receive all courtesies & enjoy every privilege that the owner would get if the owner had shown up & checked in instead of depositing the timeshare week for exchange.

That's what exchange means. I give you (or somebody else, through RCI or I-I, etc.) all that was coming to me & in exchange I get all that was coming to you (or whoever banked the week with RCI or I-I, etc.).

There can be no class distinction between full-freighters & resale owners, & likewise none between owners & exchangers.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[timeos2]

For the specifics:
I own a condo in NJ(Monmouth Beach) on the beach(The Shores). It has about 1200sf and faces the ocean, with indoor, outdoor pools and tennis courts.We also have doorman and valet.
I pay $650.00 PER MONTH MF, $400.00/mo RE taxes and $200.00/mo for utilities. Add in $400.00/mo for maid service, and $200.00/mo($25,000 in 10 years) for maintaining and replacing the contents(furniture, TVs etc). Add it up and we have $1850.00/mo or about $455.00/wk. For the same space in my TSes the MFs are about $800.00 or about double. and the BOD in my condo are big spenders and spend frivolously. They just replaced all the perfectly good interior doors,renovated the corridors and lobby area.

Are there new guests in the unit each week? Is it in use 51 weeks per year with at least a weekly cleaning once per week? Do they clean the toilets, the kitchen, the floors, weekly? On site management to check guests in & out of units? (Not a $7/hr doorman) Someone handling reservations if its a float type use?

Of course not. It is a totally different model of ownership and not directly comparable. If someone wants a 52 week/year condo and the costs that come with it that's what they will buy. If they want a fractional use with nearly everything supplied to them in one week pieces then they look at timeshare or something similar and accept that the costs while high on an annualized basis represent a good value when limited to a week or two of use.

 

[e.bram]

John:
Read my post, again! I included those as additional expenses.
The employees at my condo are highly paid union people not $7.00 / hr employees. The valet will park your car and bring your packages to your apt.

 

[timeos2]

Accept it for what it is & how it works

John:
Read my post, again! I included those as additional expenses.
The employees at my condo are highly paid union people not $7.00 / hr employees. The valet will park your car and bring your packages to your apt.

Weekly check in /out? Both for the cost of that function & the significant additional wear & tear - especially when non-owners stay on the property. Who pays for the much higher weekly costs of utilities vs a whole owner? Front desk? 24 hr/day - 7 day/week? You are conveniently ignoring major expenses that simply do not exist for a whole ownership or cannot be reduced to a flat rate for a hotel type operation but one with units 4-7+ times larger and more equipped (as in full kitchens, multiple bathrooms, etc) than most hotel rooms. Does your condo employ between 60-80 Highly paid union people? Of course not - they are not needed but they are in a mid-sized timeshare.

If it was apples to apples this case could be made. But it is closer to cherries and eggplants. Many more to pick to fill the basket in a timeshare. The underlying idea that both types of ownership are vacation options and sould be used as comparison in a general way is valid. Bringing it down to exact costs isn't as the whole operation model isn't the same. Deciding that one type of ownership is a better value to you is the essence of the decisions a buyer has to make. Trying to force costs from one model into the other just doesn't work. No matter how many times you repeat the same idea it still doesn't fit. If the timeshare model that trades higher weekly average cost in return for 51 weeks a year that you don't have to worry about doesn't fit then don't use it. If caring for a unit 52 weeks per year works better then do it! But they are two different ideas each with a different cost basis. Period. End of story.

 

[e.bram]

I own both and I don't see the difference in staffing. My condo has 24/7 doorman/valet staffing and I have including the cost for cleaning(more than my actual cost) maintaining and replacing interior furnishing.
Any other posters have both condos and TSes, please respond. I am assuming Timeos2 doesn't, but he pontificates like he does the way a typical TS BOD member does justifying the high MFs in the TS where he is a member of the BOD in cahoots with the managing entity(VRI).

 

[Fredm]

Beyond the differences already mentioned, vacation resorts have extensive grounds and amenities not typically found to the same extent in residential condo complexes.
Tennis facilities, large swimming pools, expansive manicured landscaping, etc. Maintenance personnel and utilities required, etc.
Just no comparison.

Having said this, the reason timeshare prices ALWAYS decline in value is there are ALWAYS more sellers than buyers. This was true in a healthy economy, and when we return to a more positive economic climate there will still be more sellers than buyers.

 

[equitax]

Apples to Oranges

I would state rather plainly that a ts and a condo are two completely separate animals that cannot be compared, and I have owned all as well as freehold.

A portion of the mf goes to pay for things such as dishes furniture and everything else on your own back with a condo or freehold. You also pay condo fees to your condo association as well. Your condo also has maybe one fiftieth of the common areas being maintained on a ts.

When the fridge, stove, hvac, hot water heater go out in your condo you are the one holding the bag for that too.

If you want to do a fair comparison, check out the percentage reserves set up for major repaira or insurance costs. You might find that your condo association has been playing tge odds for years, something we learned the hard way with one of our condos after Katrina...

I own both and I don't see the difference in staffing. My condo has 24/7 doorman/valet staffing and I have including the cost for cleaning(more than my actual cost) maintaining and replacing interior furnishing.
Any other posters have both condos and TSes, please respond. I am assuming Timeos2 doesn't, but he pontificates like he does the way a typical TS BOD member does justifying the high MFs in the TS where he is a member of the BOD in cahoots with the managing entity(VRI).

 

[Egret1986]

Off subject but......

I own both and I don't see the difference in staffing. My condo has 24/7 doorman/valet staffing and I have including the cost for cleaning(more than my actual cost) maintaining and replacing interior furnishing.
Any other posters have both condos and TSes, please respond. I am assuming Timeos2 doesn't, but he pontificates like he does the way a typical TS BOD member does justifying the high MFs in the TS where he is a member of the BOD in cahoots with the managing entity(VRI).

.....kind of like a non-Points timeshare owner pontificating about Points ownership.

Everybody's got opinions, and that's okay....in fact, it's great!

I think perhaps Timeos2 is on the BOD to try to make a difference, as other Tuggers are.

Why don't you consider this with the timeshare(s) you own? You could make a difference perhaps.

 

[e.bram]

Equitax:
"Your condo also has maybe one fiftieth of the common areas being maintained on a ts. "
On what do you base this evaluation?

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

I own both and I don't see the difference in staffing. My condo has 24/7 doorman/valet staffing and I have including the cost for cleaning(more than my actual cost) maintaining and replacing interior furnishing.
Any other posters have both condos and TSes, please respond. I am assuming Timeos2 doesn't, but he pontificates like he does the way a typical TS BOD member does justifying the high MFs in the TS where he is a member of the BOD in cahoots with the managing entity(VRI).

And how, exactly, does your whole ownership condo address the questions I posed earlier.

You know, those questions which you doggedly continue to duck answering.

 

[e.bram]

My condo costs are as follows:

MF to cpndo $650.00/mo
RE taxex $400.00/mo
Util $200.00/mo
Total $1250.00/mo
= $315/wk

I added $140/wk($640.00/mo) to provide the repair and replacement of the interior furnishings and cleaning.
Which totals $455.00/mo or almost twice what I pay for mt TS.
You can Google the condo and Google Earth to see the condo.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Timeshare Condos Have Stuff Residential Condos Don't Have.

John:
Read my post, again! I included those as additional expenses.
The employees at my condo are highly paid union people not $7.00 / hr employees. The valet will park your car and bring your packages to your apt.

How much for condo soap? Condo TP? Condo PT? Condo soap? Condo shampoo? Condo coffee starter packs? Condo dishwasher powder? Condo laundry detergent? Condo dishwashing liquid? Condo pool towels (including laundering)? Condo bed linens (including laundering)? Condo bath towels & hand towels & face cloths (including laundering)? Condo key-card coding machines? Condo exercise rooms? Etc.?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[sally13]

well...

I was watching C-span tonight and I could swear they were talking about timeshare!!..even though they were talking about jobs ,debt, and taxes...

That said, I do believe Equitax,has basicly spelled out the (nuts and bolts) of owning...Only he or she overlooks the (human) VALUE,witch is....we may die tommorrow,and what will we remember??

Will we remember that the fee went up $25.??,or the deal we could have missed??,or the $$$ we could have saved ..if we did IT another way??

We are comfortable,but like many here.. have trouble at the end of the month as well..

Point is ..We chose to participate in timeshare,because we all believe in ONE THING...If we own,we are committed to vacationing ,come hell or high water..And we VALUE this highly.Some here were roped into timesharing by thier mate.I was..But in retrospect,the times and adventures we have had,define my life!!.....no regrets...none... $$$$ will always be a bone to deal with,but we must not lose sight of the REAL value,and give this the proper VALUE,in the big picture..

This lifestyle,of making it a point to use your weeks or lose $$$,is the( gift )or(trap) ,that we deal with..Its all in the way one looks at it..THIS IS REALLY WHAT YOU ARE BUYING!!...this is what timeshare DEMANDS from us..and this is good.

I know I sound like a pitchperson,I swear I am regular folk...

I started this thread to give folks a feel for the better or worse run resorts.(.Although this is sticky ground)(,If resale is such a tiny portion of the industry,post at will,no worries mate!)!That is the great thing about the information age..right??

To improve fees vs having a nice place to stay...hands down ..we ALL can come up with that extra $50 bucks or so to make this happen...heck everone gets glass bottle wine!!( I saw A great vintage merlot for $6. Nappa Valley ..beat the famed french grapes in the blind taste test!)you get the idea..

Think about,how small things,can make your stays much more memorable..

One week we own,actually gives us wine,crackers,and mints on the pillow...every time...we love it.cost added to M-fees for this service?about $5. per weeks use...Just an inexpensive classy touch..

tired now...

 

[JDF]

My condo costs are as follows:

MF to cpndo $650.00/mo
RE taxex $400.00/mo
Util $200.00/mo
Total $1250.00/mo
= $315/wk

I added $140/wk($640.00/mo) to provide the repair and replacement of the interior furnishings and cleaning.
Which totals $455.00/mo or almost twice what I pay for mt TS.
You can Google the condo and Google Earth to see the condo.

Since everyone is throwing cold water on Ebram's ideas, I wholehardedly agree with him that there is a lot of easy money being made off mfs.
I happen to own one that the mf is 319.00 in 2011, up 9.00 from the 2007 fee of 310.00.
Well I must own a real dump, right? Not so fast my friend, this timeshare carries intervals gold rating, and I've exchanged it for Escapes to Galveston and Marriotts Grand Chateau.
Why so cheap? MANAGEMENT! A thrifty BOD that is actively engaged in the management of the resort, and who hired a local independent manager. Compare this to a sister resort (same developer) who employs a management company, mf 550.00 for an equal 2 bm. That extra 230.00 in mf, adds absolutly no value to the operation of the resort. Maybe we should all give Ebram a little more credit for his ideas!

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Since everyone is throwing cold water on Ebram's ideas, I wholehardedly agree with him that there is a lot of easy money being made off mfs.
I happen to own one that the mf is 319.00 in 2011, up 9.00 from the 2007 fee of 310.00.
Well I must own a real dump, right? Not so fast my friend, this timeshare carries intervals gold rating, and I've exchanged it for Escapes to Galveston and Marriotts Grand Chateau.
Why so cheap? MANAGEMENT! A thrifty BOD that is actively engaged in the management of the resort, and who hired a local independent manager. Compare this to a sister resort (same developer) who employs a management company, mf 550.00 for an equal 2 bm. That extra 230.00 in mf, adds absolutly no value to the operation of the resort. Maybe we should all give Ebram a little more credit for his ideas!

Except according to e.bram you are still getting ripped off by your greedy and/or incompetent board of directors. You're just not getting ripped off as much as others.

According to e.bram, if your Board was doing their job your fees would be the same as for a whole ownership condo.

*****

By the way, what does the reserve funding study show for your resort?? From that $310 fee is the board fully funding the reserve accounts needed to make future required capital projects without a special assessment??

There is a quite a few examples of resort boards of directors who pinched their pennies, hired local management, kept annual fees low, only to end up being forced to hit thier owner with walloping special assessment when a major item such as a roof repair was needed.

 

[e.bram]

Alan(and others):
Read my post. I included extra for interior(of the unit) replacement and maintenance as well as cleaning service.
My condo has indoor and outdoor pools,exercise room , billiard room, tennis courtS etc.
Gooogle it on Google Earth. The Shores, 45 Ocean Ave, 07750.

 

[sally13]

The ONE thing....

That is being overlooked ,in all this quibling,is the # 1 cost to run and maintain a resort.....(grounds and building systems,staff)....

LABOR..

To NOT throw this into the equation is silly..

I can run a resort in Mexico,twice as efficient,as the states,because labor costs are so low...not to even mention taxes..(this is why we like Mexico,more bang for your buck!!although fading fast ..due to devaluation)

Labor in New YORK city (SKILLED and other) will run quite a bit more,then in say..coastal florida, where A lack of work,in any given region ,creates competition for limited jobs,and the salaries for those jobs plummets..

Even now... rent is rent, in the big apple and one must make a certain amount of $$$,just to live in the area,and be ABLE to hold a job..

Think about this,when trying to wittle your fees down to nothing...

I would say,a 3 or even up to 5 hundred dollar fee,is WELL below,what it takes to properly maintain and run ANY timeshare ,ANYWHERE!!

If you have a fee this low,vital systems are not being replaced and disgruntled workers are most likely running your resort!!

Not a place I want to visit, on my hard earned vacation..

Also..Real estate taxes on resort properties as well as utility costs, all vary GREATLY,from one county to the next...Anyone thought of THAT????

How can you guys EVEN compare costs, without doing a county by county ,cost of living, comparison???This is what I mean about how folks compare Items...

Like most on this board believe,...( all timeshare are the same ,except for a few bells and whistles)....NO, NO ,and NO!!...Each location , country or county line ..has a bearing on costs asociated with running a resort...It all depends on location..my cost to run a 5 star resort in Mexico ,is much different then say D.C........think about it..

$300. for m.fees?? even with a studio ,this is WRONG..That is NOT enough to keep ANY resort in good health...

 

[dan_hoog]

I agree there is waste and inefficiency in many of these fees. Maybe corruption in some, though I haven't seen it. I just don't agree with the magnitude.

I've reviewed the budgets of my resorts, at the owner communications high level, and nothing seems outrageous. I will say though, the fastest growing line, most years, is the fee to Marriott for it's services, with other items and reserve fairly stable, relative to recent headline inflation. I don't think Marriot is being as efficient as they should, but also don't think it is abusive or excessive - I'm just saying they are sometimes inefficient.

In other words, I think fees could be 5 or maybe 10 percent less, but not 30 or anything like that - if service and reserve levels are maintained. I dont get upset over 5 or 10%. I'm pleased to see several hundred dollars per unit year going into reserves.

Keeping every little thing working, at these usage levels is expensive. Keeping the units and facility fresh over 5, 10, 20 years is also a big challenge. Salty oceans, other water, island economics, etc are also factors. Most resorts have a unique challenge or two.

 

[ace2000]

I still say if I have to pay a higher MF than what I can get on the rental market, then the resort is not worth staying open.

Can someone provide a rough estimate of typical expenses in broad terms for us? For example, 40% goes to labor costs, 30% for utility costs, etc. etc. etc. I don't need to see a 100 different categories, just the main costs.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Close, But No Cigar.

I included extra for interior(of the unit) replacement and maintenance as well as cleaning service.
My condo has indoor and outdoor pools,exercise room , billiard room, tennis courtS etc.

You left out condo TP & condo soap & shampoo, etc. You also left out condo cable TV & condo telephone. Ditto condo 24-7-365 front desk & check-in, with key cards, etc.

Any way you shake it the costs of operating timeshare condo resorts don't match up with the costs of operating residential condominium developments, even though there are areas of overlap.

Nice try anyway.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Deb from NC]

One more item to throw in on maint fees...mine at Port O Call include greens fees every day for 4 at a selection of HH golf courses as well as 1 hour of tennis at the very nice Van Der Meer tennis center per day. Not sure how those perks would fit into the timeshare vs whole ownership equation, but if you use them, they are quite valuable!

 

[ace2000]

One more item to throw in on maint fees...mine at Port O Call include greens fees every day for 4 at a selection of HH golf courses as well as 1 hour of tennis at the very nice Van Der Meer tennis center per day. Not sure how those perks would fit into the timeshare vs whole ownership equation, but if you use them, they are quite valuable!

Port O Call? Is that a timeshare? On RCI or II? That's a great perk!

 

[Deb from NC]

Yes, it's a timeshare! It trades through RCI. Located in Shipyard Plantation on Hilton Head. We love it there

 

[timeos2]

Blanket statements are just wrong

I still say if I have to pay a higher MF than what I can get on the rental market, then the resort is not worth staying open.

Can someone provide a rough estimate of typical expenses in broad terms for us? For example, 40% goes to labor costs, 30% for utility costs, etc. etc. etc. I don't need to see a 100 different categories, just the main costs.

At the two resorts where I serve as a Board member labor is approximately 50% of the operations budget - 35% of total budget including reserves.

As Sally properly notes ignoring the extremely high costs of labor to give a timeshare that resort "look & feel" (something that will most certainly NOT be part of a whole ownership condo) creates a false "savings". While I will not argue that some resorts, especially those that continue under Developer management after the majority of sales are done, aren't being grossly overcharged for services that could be done for far less that is not universally true. And as shown by the majority of responses in this and other threads people realize that you cannot directly compare timeshare operations to whole condos.

Don't discount everything e.bram offers up as ideas for better management / value for the dollar as we do need people to be creative. The exact method he chooses to try to equate to differing operations is badly flawed while the concept of holding down expenses - especially management costs - is a very good one. Everything has to go into the mix and hopefully the best balance of expense vs value will emerge. Blanket statements of corruption or price gouging tend to reduce the credibility of what can be valuable ideas to help resorts get more bang for the buck. I find these types of threads very informative and valuable as an owner and a Board member.

I do have to throw out the chaff and focus on the grain of value in many of these arguments.

 

[ace2000]

Yes, it's a timeshare! It trades through RCI. Located in Shipyard Plantation on Hilton Head. We love it there

So, do exchangers get those benefits also?