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How.?.Why?..has your timeshare DEVALUED since purchase..and is it fair ???

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Passepartout

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Arguing with sally13 is like mud wrestling with a pig. After a while, you realize that the pig likes it.

Jim Ricks

(just wait- next (s)he will accuse me of calling her...uh, you know)
 
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ronparise

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I Tried

Since I dont like to post to any forum unless I feel i can contribute something to the discussion; I tried, I really tried to read every post in this thread...couldnt do it, fell asleep. And then i tried to remember what I read....couldnt do that either. But I still feel that I can contribute, so here goes

In the interest of getting back on topic, here is my summary of this thread

Question posed in the original post: Why has your timeshare lost value?

Implied in this original post is; why has it lost financial value. Answers ranged from developers changing the sales incentives over time (and taking old benefits away from past customers) to the pure supply and demand arguments (there are too many timeshares and not enough buyers) to the direct answer of too high maintenance fees) to denying that any value was lost at all (I still get to use it dont I?)

The argument I liked best was to compare a timeshare with a used car. (They lose value as soon as they are taken off the lot too and as required maintenance increases, value decreases)


As the thread got longer and longer, side discussions emerged around proposals to increase value;ie developer or association buy backs, right of first refusal etc And the question; Are maintenance really too high?

One proposal that deserves special attention is the proposal to make second class citizens out of resale buyers. A silly proposal in my book because it misses the point that nothing is lost until you sell it and if you make your potential buyer a second class citizen you wont be able to give it away, which of course, is where we started

Another argument that misses the point is that the resort wouldnt exist except for the original retail buyers, and shouldnt they get some reward for that purchase. I know at least in the case of Wyndham they do, ie VIP but since VIP membership doesn't transfer its a sales incentive, not a resale incentive. They have in fact made the retail buyer a second class citizen.

I might point out here that very few posters seem to grasp the reality that once a developer sells out he is (or should be) out of the picture. Its your own HOA or POA that makes the decisions. And by the way, timeshares began as a way for developers to sell unsold or unsaleable inventory. ie they made money from something worth nothing



All this brings me to my comment that dollar value in real estate can be derived from answering three questions 1) what would it cost to replace it? 2) how much income can I derive from it? 3) what's the market willing to give me for it?

In all three cases the value is only a fraction of what developers are selling timeshares for.

I figure that even the high rise high end building sitting on the most expensive real estate can be replaced for about $300 a square foot (ie a 1200 sq ft condo $360000) Since each condo is owned by 52 people that makes the replacement value about $7000. Not nothing but; a whole lot less than what the developer is selling them for.

How about an income approach..If I thought I could make money on these things Id pay to do it. However to rent a timeshare for significantly more than the maintenance fees is not possible except for special weeks in special places (ie Mardi Gras in the French quarter of New Orleans) so from an income approach most timeshares are worthless, and of course if I can rent my vacation place cheaper than a timeshare maintenance fee why would I buy?

As for what will the market give for a timeshare? we know that answer, its what started this discussion....nothing


Real estate salesmen like me usually understand that real estate is sold by appealing to the buyers emotional side and then justified by applying logic. Timeshare salesmen do their best to end the discussion after the emotional appeal, and get the sale done before logic sets it. With any luck emotions rule the day (in Florida 10 days) until the rescission period is over. I suspect our original poster didnt use any logic until just recently

Where does all this bring me? back to where we started! I would suggest that timeshares have not dropped in value. The value is what its always been and thats ZERO. Except in certain special situations if you paid more than that you got taken and there's very little you can do to change that. To try would be, as my grandma used to say; "like putting lipstick on a pig"
 

e.bram

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By limiting access(writers and readers) to the review database, TUG is seriously devaluing that database. The larger the sample the more statistically
significant inferences are.
 

DeniseM

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By limiting access(writers and readers) to the review database, TUG is seriously devaluing that database. The larger the sample the more statistically
significant inferences are.

I thought you were worried about shills corrupting the reviews? :shrug:
 

e.bram

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John and Jim calling me and Sally cheapskates?
You, who live the low cost boondocks(desert and nowhere), instead of high cost metro areas(NYC,Frisco, LA etc)or on the beach are the cheapskates.
 

Passepartout

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If you want to contribute to reviews that are open to all, try TripAdvisor. They got so many shills that they (IIRC) cut off reviews of timeshare properties.

TUG's allowing access to members paying a small admission fee keeps out the shills. Putting the scoring up front in the reviews allows people to quickly see if a property is a 'fit' for them. Encouraging reviewers to state up front whether they are an owner, renter, or exchanger allows readers to judge the veracity of the review. Face facts. Owners DO get the better furnished, prettier views than exchangers. Owners have a financial interest in skewing the reviews to higher scores.

Should every condo be exactly alike at every resort? Should every view be the same? In a perfect world, yes! But we all know they can't be. This inequality alone will account for differences in review scores.

I'll vote with my wallet to continue the TUG review model. It works! Those who want free reviews from shills, developers, promoters, or those who simply have an axe to grind about a property- or happen to own at the place next door- are free to get their information wherever they can find it.

Jim Ricks

By the way, RonParise, I thought your synopsis of this meandering thread was pretty much spot-on. Especially my comparison of TS with car ownership;)
 

DeniseM

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Enough about who's cheap and who's not.

BTW - I am cheap and proud of it! :D
 

dan_hoog

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Ronparise...

Good summary and contribution, IMO

The 7k is interesting, obviously just an estimate. Most of the time, there are common amenities that push it up, but also construction of a ts isn't equivalent to condos, so there are also cost savings.

What I find interesting is that many resale timeshares sell well below the replacement cost. This suggests the 'value add' of the timeshare program is highly adverse. Maintenance fees and the impression of timeshares among much of the population are likely factors.

On another note, the ts I own rent for more than MF, most around 3x the maintenance fees. This is real numbers, as I've both rented out and in to each location. They also seem to re sell above the guesstimate replacement costs, but not by huge amounts.

A core issue factor, to me, is that clientele for new timeshare sales, in most locales, is not limited by demand factors for annual usage levels. So overbuilding continues. The best candidate for new sales may be the occasional vacationer who find the discount for a presentation, first discovers options other than hotels, and the hypnosis continues. People buy with plans of becoming a regular traveller, in a style that is a step up. Most quickly figure out they don't travel so much after all.

If, like we and many here did, you buy and shift ownership to fit real plans and situations, TS add nicely to vacation experience and your life.

My unsolicited buying advice
- resale, where you can easily go most years, plan to use more than 50%, top views, units, seasons - unless you are certain you would mostly use. Always read tug reviews, always check private rental asking prices (TUG, redweek, myresortnetwork, etc). Be wary, if MF are near rental rates Also, I recommend popular resorts with lots of reviews, listings on sites, etc. I'm sure that misses some gems, but it would be harder to sell an unknown resort.
 

Passepartout

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John and Jim calling me and Sally cheapskates?
You, who live the low cost boondocks(desert and nowhere), instead of high cost metro areas(NYC,Frisco, LA etc)or on the beach are the cheapskates.

This coming from someone who stated clearly in another thread that he paid $100k for his digs. My garage cost more. People live where they live largely for economic reasons. If where you live works for you, that's fine. We live where we live for lifestyle and economic opportunity. The side issue of being a self-proclaimed tightwad is immaterial, and as I said earlier, I consider it a badge of honor.

I've lived in coastal areas and 'Big City'. That isn't my chosen quality of life. e.bram, you know not of what you speak.

Jim Ricks
 

e.bram

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Since a TS's value is in the location, location and location. I use Google Earth .
If it is right on the ocean or the center of a city it is thumbs up, other wise it is worthless.
 

tombo

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I glanced through a few posts on this thread and as a member I suggest that other members simply ignore Sally's and Ebram's posts. If they come here and post and no one responds they will either join or go away.

Ebram has contributed to many threads I have read and participated in, but to have serial guests enjoy a forum endlessly that others pay to keep running is getting old to me. Ebram has been a guest forever (since 2005). Ebram has over 1800 posts as a GUEST. I guess in 20 years Ebram would still like to be a guest of TUG without having contributed a dollar to it's existence over his decades of posting and enjoying the TUG forums. If nobody joined and everyone became guests TUg would cease to exist. IMO it is past time for Ebram to Sh#$ or get off of the pot.

To me GUESTS complaining about their limited TUG access is like people who don't pay taxes complaining about poor roads. If it is not worth the money to join, great, don't join. But if you refuse to join don't complain about what TUG does with and for those who are willing to pay to be members, and don't be offended if paying members tire of you enjoying for free what we pay to keep running. I don't pay country club dues so that non members can play golf for free, I pay dues to keep the club up and running for the enjoyment of members. I also don't pay TUG dues so that people who refuse to pay to join can endlessly enjoy the forums I support with my membership.

I will gladly talk to and discuss things of interest to me on TUG forums with some guests, especially new guest who are new to timeshares or have just found TUG, but to debate a guest with more posts than most members is as others referred earlier simply giving the benefit of TUG membership to one who refuses to pay for the priviledge.

[off-topic]
 
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DeniseM

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Any further posts debating who is cheaper will be deleted.

Can we please get back on topic? (Whatever that is! :D)
 
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Passepartout

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I'm sorry. I'll try to be good. Jim
 

DeniseM

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Since this thread has dwindled down to petty bickering - it's done...
 
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