How.?.Why?..has your timeshare DEVALUED since purchase..and is it fair ???

[AwayWeGo]

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Alan:
Even if you factor in the RE taxes and other expenses(like having a maid cleaning, utilities repairs and replacements , which whole ownership condos have, even if paid separately), my TSes cost at least twice as much as my oceanfront condo which has a doorman and valet.
You have been brain washed by Managements cos and BOD members(like John).
Do the arithmetic actually using all the costs of a TS and whole ownership condo, and see the difference.

You must have mistaken me for someone else -- or vice versa.

Even so, fret not. Nobody's perfect.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[dan_hoog]

My own personal pet :deadhorse:

Like in many industries, rather than address a core problem, long term value perception, many developers decided to devalue their own offspring (resales) to encourage new sales.

While nothing would keep resales close to new sales (there are advertising costs, free vacations, sales commissions, the perks have some value, hypnotic music, hype, and maybe a lie or two), smarter, longer term thought by resorts could have prevented the present situation.

A few ideas:

- A slight bias in maintenance fees by season (e.g., sell 9,10,or 11/520ths of a unit, rather than just 1/52 -- adding up to whole units of course -- each always gets exactly a week contractually). Even a 20% difference in peak to low season maintenance fees helps the problem of rental/maintenance disparity. I know it isn't "fair," but believe it would help.

- Offer predictable resale, buyback programs - even at 10 or 20% of original purchase makes a huge difference in market perception

- Offer a rental pool option or skip-use option that helps offset or alleviate maintenance fees if the owner can't use the unit

- Offer free wine on check-in to owners (bottle for original owners; box for resales); Dry Kool-Aid packs to exchangers.

 

[ace2000]

My own personal pet :deadhorse:

Like in many industries, rather than address a core problem, long term value perception, many developers decided to devalue their own offspring (resales) to encourage new sales.

While nothing would keep resales close to new sales (there are advertising costs, free vacations, sales commissions, the perks have some value, hypnotic music, hype, and maybe a lie or two), smarter, longer term thought by resorts could have prevented the present situation.

A few ideas:

- A slight bias in maintenance fees by season (e.g., sell 9,10,or 11/520ths of a unit, rather than just 1/52 -- adding up to whole units of course -- each always gets exactly a week contractually). Even a 20% difference in peak to low season maintenance fees helps the problem of rental/maintenance disparity. I know it isn't "fair," but believe it would help.

- Offer predictable resale, buyback programs - even at 10 or 20% of original purchase makes a huge difference in market perception

- Offer a rental pool option or skip-use option that helps offset or alleviate maintenance fees if the owner can't use the unit

- Offer free wine on check-in (bottle for original owners; box for resales)

When rental prices are so much lower than maintenace fees, why even buy resale? I know, I'm beating a dead horse too, but it's the truth!

 

[Karen G]

- Offer free wine on check-in (bottle for original owners; box for resales)

:whoopie: But what about exchangers?? Maybe Kool-Aid?

 

[dan_hoog]

I agree for many units and seasons. That is why I suggest some MF break for off-season periods, fair or not, to the peak owners. I don't like the Marriott DC approach - which I think goes too far in the other direction. However, a 15-20% MF difference between peak and lowest season would be palatable to most. The intent is precisely to give better economics to the off season with a modest haircut on the peak season.

The most serious rental/maintenance gaps are probably some off-brand, overbuilt, low season, units. They have many strikes against rental rates and clearly its a stretch to create the value proposition. Of course, the rental rates off season are extremely low in some areas precisely due to over-building and the MFs people panic to avoid.

However, there are many timeshares that still have rental prices that are multiples of the maintenance fees -- even private party rentals, not just through retail rental channels. That is the case for those I own based on experience, since I rent out what I don't use. Even many off-season weeks rent for more than MF, though just barely.

When rental prices are so much lower than maintenace fees, why even buy resale? I know, I'm beating a dead horse too, but it's the truth!

 

[dan_hoog]

Great thought. I'll update the recommendation accordingly

:whoopie: But what about exchangers?? Maybe Kool-Aid?

 

[e.bram]

Alan:
You're right. I meant Steve.

 

[Judy]

Celebrity,Hatteras High, The Ridge Tahoe, Worldmark,Buddy Dive

I bought my first timeshare, Resort World of Orlando, from the developer. I believe they called themselves Central Florida Reservations at that time. The developer never turned over control of the HOA to the owners. As time went on, the the developer changed its name to Celebrity Resorts, and a few years later declared bankruptcy. Now they call themselves Legacy Vacation Club. In order to get rid of my unit/week now, I'd have to give the "buyer" a very sweet deal.
My second timeshare was The Ridge Tahoe. I bought that one on the secondary market. It's a well run and well maintained resort. But even so, I had to take a loss when I sold it back to the in-house sales agency. I think that the reason it lost value is that a lot more timeshare resorts were built in the area.
My next timeshare purchase was Hatteras High. I bought a week at an auction when the developer pulled out. Because I paid so little, I could probably sell my week for more than I paid, but I don't want to.
My third timeshare purchase was a "vacation club" called Worldmark I bought this one on the resale market too. For a while it was a wonderfully run club and maintained its resale value. Then the developer sold out to Cendant which became part of Wyndham Corp. Wyndham is the manager and much has been posted about their questionable practices and less than wonderful management style. Worldmark memberships can now be purchased for less than I paid.
My final purchase was a RTU at Lions Dive Bonaire. At the time I bought it, the resort was in the process of being taken over by the hotel next door, Buddy Dive. This hotel is very popular with divers and very few timeshare units ever come available for exchange. I've never seen a week for sale there since, so I don't know what it's worth.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Alan:
Even if you factor in the RE taxes and other expenses(like having a maid cleaning, utilities repairs and replacements , which whole ownership condos have, even if paid separately), my TSes cost at least twice as much as my oceanfront condo which has a doorman and valet.
You have been brain washed by Managements cos and BOD members(like John).
Do the arithmetic actually using all the costs of a TS and whole ownership condo, and see the difference.

Good.

Good - I was correct in my assumption that you have given though to operational necessities at timeshares and whole ownership resorts.

I own at one resort where the board actively and regularly solicits (and implements) cost-savings recommendations from owners. So I'm understandably anxious to pass along your thoughts. Personally I'm thrilled. about the opportunity to reduce my annual timeshare fees to the same level as that of a whole ownership.

Now, earlier in this thread you stated, in essence, that management fees at a timeshare should be the same as for whole ownership. That indicates that you believe that timeshare properties can be operated with exactly the same services as provided with a whole ownership situation.

So I return you to my previous list of questions. With services reduced to the same level as that of a whole ownership condo, how would those issues be addressed???

This is a great opportunity for you to share those ideas that you've considered, and actually get a chance to see them put into practice. I can't imagine that you would pass up this opportunity. So please, pass on those ideas. I'm sure that I'm not the only one here who's eager to hear what you've come up with. As my Mommy often told me, "Don't be selfish, now. Share with others."

 

[dan_hoog]

Let's make sure to give these recommendations to Marriott as well. They have higher than average cost increases lately. Maybe I should have brought 1/52 of a new flat screen tv/dvd combo along on my last trip to save HOA costs -- I just hope I get the same unit the next time and that no one breaks it.

Good.

Good - I was correct in my assumption that you have given though to operational necessities at timeshares and whole ownership resorts.

I own at one resort where the board actively and regularly solicits (and implements) cost-savings recommendations from owners. So I'm understandably anxious to pass along your thoughts. Personally I'm thrilled. about the opportunity to reduce my annual timeshare fees to the same level as that of a whole ownership.

Now, earlier in this thread you stated, in essence, that management fees at a timeshare should be the same as for whole ownership. That indicates that you believe that timeshare properties can be operated with exactly the same services as provided with a whole ownership situation.

So I return you to my previous list of questions. With services reduced to the same level as that of a whole ownership condo, how would those issues be addressed???

This is a great opportunity for you to share those ideas that you've considered, and actually get a chance to see them put into practice. I can't imagine that you would pass up this opportunity. So please, pass on those ideas. I'm sure that I'm not the only one here who's eager to hear what you've come up with. As my Mommy often told me, "Don't be selfish, now. Share with others."

 

[e.bram]

Steve:
Reread my post. I said to factor in all the other expenses and the total is still more than double the whole ownership.

 

[MuranoJo]

Like in many industries, rather than address a core problem, long term value perception, many developers decided to devalue their own offspring (resales) to encourage new sales.

- Offer free wine on check-in to owners (bottle for original owners; box for resales); Dry Kool-Aid packs to exchangers.

My pet peeve is resorts which devalue legacy ownerships by continuing to add more and more upper levels of ownership at the same locations--tearing down lower-level properties to make room for upgraded levels. This leaves those with older ownerships who can't or don't want to upgrade faced with reduced inventory of rooms to occupy.

Those with legacy contracts provided the backbone funding to build the upgraded levels. Yet they're squeezed out of the inventory model and if they get very lucky and can book a week, they are prohibited from using the facilities of the upgraded areas. To add insult to injury, overflow from the new levels are placed into legacy space.

Box wine is fine with me as a freebie.

 

[Pit]

from your car analogy above ..I guess it would be safe to say..that when you have used your car (TIMESHARE),for a few years,it is time to buy a NEW timeshare..like a car it depriciates with time..(upgrade perhaps??)Do you think M-fees should stay the same,year after year??Should they only increase at the bogus CPI inflation rate??How do you make it all work when the costs to maintain,outrun the fees??

The car analogy works for me. I don't buy a car every "few years." I maintain a car and use it for a long time. As it gets older, the maintenance costs increase and the value depreciates. To be expected. When the cost to maintain my car exceeds the cost to purchase another (used) car, it's time for a change.

Same with my timeshares. When the cost to maintain them exceeds the next best alternative, or I no longer need them, it's time for a change. I have no emotional attachment to either my car or my timeshares. One provides transportation, the other vacation lodging. Together, they make a great combination, but neither one is an investment.

I would never recommend someone buy a new timeshare or a new car. The first owner takes too much of the depreciation cost. But, that's just my opinion. Fortunately, for me, there are others who are perfectly willing to absorb those depreciation costs in order to have a 'new' car or timeshare. Seems fair to me.

 

[dan_hoog]

Box wine is fine with me as a freebie.

All in the interest of fun conversation. The resorts need some way to discriminate new/resale. This seemed like a nice distinction that wouldn't upset legacy owners too much. I think treating exchangers like 3rd class citizens is a good touch, though it wasn't my idea ;-)

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Steve:
Reread my post. I said to factor in all the other expenses and the total is still more than double the whole ownership.

I did redread your post. Several times as a matter of fact.

Now why don't you reread my posts and simply respond to the questions I have asked? I'm really are eager to hear your ideas about how those things can be handled. If you can share with us your answers to those questions you could do enormous benefit to the timesharing community.

Why do you feel it necessary to avoid simply answering the questions? Why is it necessary for you to keep that information to yourself instead of letting others benefit from your wisdom??

 

[timeos2]

I did redread your post. Several times as a matter of fact.

Now why don't you reread my posts and simply respond to the questions I have asked? I'm really are eager to hear your ideas about how those things can be handled. If you can share with us your answers to those questions you could do enormous benefit to the timesharing community.

Why do you feel it necessary to avoid simply answering the questions? Why is it necessary for you to keep that information to yourself instead of letting others benefit from your wisdom??

Anyone following these threads by now realize that you'll never get a direct answer as it isn't a realistic idea. As you artfully pointed out there are costs and differences that prevent any timeshare from operating as a whole owned condo. The drum beat for "must lower costs but give better than average quality, size and amenities" is a dead end argument. But if repeated often enough it takes on a life of its own. Unfortunately it simply isn't viable no matter how many times it gets repeated as "the solution".

 

[AwayWeGo]

Au Contraire, Mon Frère.

I think treating exchangers like 3rd class citizens is a good touch, though it wasn't my idea.

Terrible idea.

The timeshare exchange guest is the owner's surrogate & as such should get everything & receive all courtesies & enjoy every privilege that the owner would get if the owner had shown up & checked in instead of depositing the timeshare week for exchange.

That's what exchange means. I give you (or somebody else, through RCI or I-I, etc.) all that was coming to me & in exchange I get all that was coming to you (or whoever banked the week with RCI or I-I, etc.).

There can be no class distinction between full-freighters & resale owners, & likewise none between owners & exchangers.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[bnoble]

Nonsense. *My* resort should treat owners better than exchangers. *Other* resorts should treat them the same. Simple!

 

[l2trade]

Nonsense. *My* resort should treat owners better than exchangers. *Other* resorts should treat them the same. Simple!

LMAO! When I stay at my home resort or exchange to my home brand, I expect the best views and treatment because, after all, I am an owner. When I exchange into another branded resort, I expect the best views and treatment because, after all, I am a guest and I might become an owner! I think this actually works for me! :hysterical:

 

[e.bram]

For the specifics:
I own a condo in NJ(Monmouth Beach) on the beach(The Shores). It has about 1200sf and faces the ocean, with indoor, outdoor pools and tennis courts.We also have doorman and valet.
I pay $650.00 PER MONTH MF, $400.00/mo RE taxes and $200.00/mo for utilities. Add in $400.00/mo for maid service, and $200.00/mo($25,000 in 10 years) for maintaining and replacing the contents(furniture, TVs etc). Add it up and we have $1850.00/mo or about $455.00/wk. For the same space in my TSes the MFs are about $800.00 or about double. and the BOD in my condo are big spenders and spend frivolously. They just replaced all the perfectly good interior doors,renovated the corridors and lobby area.

 

[ace2000]

LMAO! When I stay at my home resort or exchange to my home brand, I expect the best views and treatment because, after all, I am an owner. When I exchange into another branded resort, I expect the best views and treatment because, after all, I am a guest and I might become an owner! I think this actually works for me! :hysterical:

Yes, I'm starting to see that the whole timeshare deal is a bunch of selfish interests competing against each other. Just look at the responses on TUG... you have people being critical of the PCCs and at the same time purchasing timeshares on eBay from the PCCs, you have people begging others not to default on their maint fees because of the concern that their own MFs will go up, and then you have the scenario presented in this example (exaggerated but true). In the mix of all this, on the other side you have the developers wanting their share.

Ain't capitalism great!

 

[e.bram]

ace2000:
Worst of all is the selfish interests of the BOD and management company, which results in HIGH MFs.

 

[MommaBear]

LMAO! When I stay at my home resort or exchange to my home brand, I expect the best views and treatment because, after all, I am an owner. When I exchange into another branded resort, I expect the best views and treatment because, after all, I am a guest and I might become an owner! I think this actually works for me! :hysterical:

:hysterical: Thank you for the laugh of the day! This is so true!

 

[AwayWeGo]

Depends On The BOD & The Management Company.

Worst of all is the selfish interests of the BOD and management company, which results in HIGH MFs.

If you mean captive HOA-BODs controlled by the timeshare companies, & their captive management companies, then you typed a mouthful.

If you mean independent, owner-controlled, non-company HOA-BODs, then not so much.

However, to keep fees down while keeping quality up, even the independent & owner-controlled HOAs need savvy BOD members who know what they're doing. Just being free from timeshare company control is not enough.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

For the specifics:
I own a condo in NJ(Monmouth Beach) on the beach(The Shores). It has about 1200sf and faces the ocean, with indoor, outdoor pools and tennis courts.We also have doorman and valet.
I pay $650.00 PER MONTH MF, $400.00/mo RE taxes and $200.00/mo for utilities. Add in $400.00/mo for maid service, and $200.00/mo($25,000 in 10 years) for maintaining and replacing the contents(furniture, TVs etc). Add it up and we have $1850.00/mo or about $455.00/wk. For the same space in my TSes the MFs are about $800.00 or about double. and the BOD in my condo are big spenders and spend frivolously. They just replaced all the perfectly good interior doors,renovated the corridors and lobby area.

Again - why not just answer my questions? If you reduce timeshare services to the levels that you propose, how would you handle those questions I raised. I really want to know because I want to pass those ideas on to the boards of directors at my resorts.

*****

Of course, I think it's becoming obvious that you don't have answers to those questions. Which, of course, means that that your assertion to reduce services at timeshare resorts to the equivalent of whole ownership condos is unworkable.

It would be really great, though, if you could back up your words and show us how to do it.