HGV Max in the Club Reference Guide

[escanoe]

So upgrading a resale could be a good route to get in, if you have good trade in value and find the right deal.

Yes. And it appears the purpose of the HGV Max a la carte price at $7k is to make getting it “free” with a developer purchase is to make a developer purchase or trading in for a developer purchase appear to be more of a bargain.

 

[HuskerATL]

My thought is why would I put the kind of cash HGV wants when they have now shown they are willing to change the system at a whim and charge existing clients more money to play in the new sandbox. It’s a slap in the face to all those that put, in some cases 6 figures into their ownership. Who’s to say they don’t have a series of changes lined up to soak owners for even more?

I’m not even talking about me. I haven’t put that kind of money that others have (about $2200 directly to HGVC) for my ownership. I understand why a resale owner like me might be left out (don’t agree but understand), but to force those that spent a considerable amount of income to pay even more is a slap to the face. They have already gone back on their word that they put their owners first by not accommodating those that they built their company on. Then they have the audacity to allow the sales weasels full control over the narrative by not specifying what the program actually is. Sales is allowed to throw whatever crap they want against the wall and see what sticks. As long as the buyer goes past the recession period, they are stuck. Then, sales is ignoring the $7000 opt in fee, pretending it doesn’t exist so they can coerce prospective buyers to purchasing even more. The DRI sales tactics are permeating into HGV.

I agree. There are some owners who have paid a lot for retail and they are being left out of Max. If I were them, I would be very unhappy.

 

[HuskerATL]

Yes. And it appears the purpose of the HGV Max a la carte price at $7k is to make getting it “free” with a developer purchase is to make a developer purchase or trading in for a developer purchase appear to be more of a bargain.

I did see on FB that a person completed an upgrade for $7k and they are in for Max. So, in this example, they got a better ownership at the same cost as the initiation fee.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I’m not even talking about me. I haven’t put that kind of money that others have (about $2200 directly to HGVC) for my ownership. I understand why a resale owner like me might be left out (don’t agree but understand), but to force those that spent a considerable amount of income to pay even more is a slap to the face. They have already gone back on their word that they put their owners first by not accommodating those that they built their company on. Then they have the audacity to allow the sales weasels full control over the narrative by not specifying what the program actually is. Sales is allowed to throw whatever crap they want against the wall and see what sticks. As long as the buyer goes past the recession period, they are stuck. Then, sales is ignoring the $7000 opt in fee, pretending it doesn’t exist so they can coerce prospective buyers to purchasing even more. The DRI sales tactics are permeating into HGV.

Well said. I am puzzled and disappointed HGV is not grandfathering owners who paid retail in the past. This is out of step with the HGV brand which is to take the high road and be classy. Is Diamond or their PE firm influencing this change?

To contrast, MVC is grandfathering retail with their new Vistana integration program. Although it sucks for unqualified resales, MVC is saying you need to pay in like everyone else if you want extra features. I believe it is fair for retail owners to get free enrollment because it recognizes their investment.

What HGV just did with this policy is to say that anyone who bought or buys retail is a sucker because you get no preference for all that money you paid i.e. we don't care if you paid more than $50k or $100k, because we just firewalled you and put you as second-class legacy - even the elites. Now pay up again to gain access to new properties (when HGV # of resorts was well below the industry average and promised more resorts in sales presentations). Really??

This is not right. I have invested retail in the HGV system and I am not happy about this policy. This is a bad precedent and does not build loyalty from their best buyers because they just screwed the HGV Elites and retail buyers. Besides, it doesn't cost HGV anything to allow retail to participate and would build program momentum. Pennywise. Pound foolish.

Everyone should bring up these points at sales presentations when they ask why we won't buy retail.

 

[90_Min_Sales_Pitch]

How many people were tempted to buy Diamond at retail, prior to the MAX rollout? Let's say Diamond offered a special limited 6 month booking window, at only 6 of their properties? Most HGVC owners didn't know they wanted it, until the FOMO and brand loyalty kicked in.

 

[escanoe]

The thing that bothers me most about being left in the HGVC legacy product (if that is how it turns out) is being locked out of any new properties and a fear that booking exchanges in the legacy club could become harder.

I don’t see myself ever going for MAX at the current price of entry. I am more likely to go buy some legacy Marriott and then make a developer purchase so I can trade with points there than I am to buy MAX … but I am not in a big hurry to do anything other than find out “the rest of the story” on HGV MAX. We could use some Paul Harvey on this.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Trust takes years to build and minutes to lose. I hope HGV clarifies this Max situation soon.

 

[dougp26364]

Yes. And it appears the purpose of the HGV Max a la carte price at $7k is to make getting it “free” with a developer purchase is to make a developer purchase or trading in for a developer purchase appear to be more of a bargain.

If I was even mildly interested in an upgrade and that upgrade was less than $10,000, then getting MAX as a benefit would be fine, but it’s not enough of an incentive for us to upgrade on its own merits. You have to keep in mind that we’re older, we own a resort we like and we know how to use the system well enough that there’s no urgency to upgrade. It’s a sense of urgency that gets most prospects to sign a new deal.

Maybe an owner wants to upgrade from an older property to the newest property for the home resort booking window. Maybe they want to upgrade from an EOY deed. Maybe a family is growing and they find they need a larger unit. In these situations getting MAX tossed in without additional charge might be incentive enough to upgrade. My bet is, for many owners not familiar with TUG or the resale market, they will find it enough of an incentive to buy just a little more.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

MVC acknowledged in an investor call that they derive the majority of sales from existing owners. This fact is what is likely driving them to grandfather their owners because they know they will get it back later in new sales or in owner loyalty telling others. Once in the family always in the family.

What is HGV thinking by alienating their retail and Elite buyers? Is this a Diamond tactic? This is damaging the HGV brand.

 

[WORLD TRAVELER]

I did see on FB that a person completed an upgrade for $7k and they are in for Max. So, in this example, they got a better ownership at the same cost as the initiation fee.

Which Facebook board was this on? I would like to follow that conversation.

 

[WORLD TRAVELER]

MVC acknowledged in an investor call that they derive the majority of sales from existing owners. This fact is what is likely driving them to grandfather their owners because they know they will get it back later in new sales or in owner loyalty telling others. Once in the family always in the family.

What is HGV thinking by alienating their retail and Elite buyers? Is this a Diamond tactic? This is damaging the HGV brand.

I'm hoping this doesn't turn into a reverse takeover since Diamond originally approached HGVC about purchasing HGVC but was rebuffed by Hilton Corp. I find it interesting that HGVC then purchased Diamond a couple years later with Hilton Corp's blessing. I was looking at the Diamond board and someone posted a multi year excel spreadsheet showing the cost per point of being in their program and it's very expensive compared to HGVC with rates starting at 67 cents per point for lower point memberships down to 19 cents per point for people that have 100K points for 2022.

 

[HuskerATL]

Which Facebook board was this on? I would like to follow that conversation.

it was either the HGVC general one, https://www.facebook.com/groups/HGVCowners , or the Elite one, https://www.facebook.com/groups/2189003537797236 , but let me see if I can find it.

 

[trippka]

So if I read the points reports correctly 1 week in a Hawaii Oceanfront 2 bdrm will run between 18,000 and 21,000 points. A one bedroom OF or less than peak season about 15500 points.

Backing out the club fee that's approx $3248 to $3845/week for a 2 bdrm for 1 week peak. And sbout $2906 for a 1 bdrm 15,500 points or 2 bdrm high season (not peak).

If I calculated this correctly, that's more expensive than our Westin Kaanapali OF on Maui which is $2800/week MF (and I thought that was expensive!). However, the Westin can be locked off for $1400/week (1Bdrm/Studio) for a 2 week stay.

Lots to think about!

Do the new HGV 1.6x points now translate to Diamond points 1:1? If so, our HGV points from two different deeds, will barely get a 2 bdrm OF at P@P for a week at 21,000 points. Yet within HGVC we can get a 2 bdrm on BI or Oahu with only one of those deeds points (old 9600 points).

I am a little confused by your point totals. Are these meant to be DRI? If so, there are no 2BR oceanfronts at Kaanapali Beach Club, and there are no 1BRs at all at P@P. The KBC oceanfronts are 1BR, and the 2BRs are very limited and at the back of the resort. I have points in both the Hawaii and Cabo Azul collections. I only use these resorts. They say 14mo availability for my status level, but realistically it is 13 mo as it requires developer owned weeks to be freed up at 14 mo, and they would rather rent them to new prospects. At 13 mo, I usually can't get exactly what I want in Feb or Mar at either resort. Lots of people have several months of points, and they can book a 1 month stay, so effectively they are getting to my desired units a month before me. I can always get something, though probably not the oceanfront I want. As for Cabo Azul, there is usually discounted availability in the summer months, but they are for hotel type suites with no kitchen. I like having a kitchen and a real bedroom so that I can be up working, watching TV, etc. while my husband sleeps in. It is really hard for me to get a 1BR oceanfront no matter what I do. I am happy to use the oceanview for fewer points though. The sad part about the spotty availability is that I am supposed to be able to upgrade to the next level up, but they have so MANY different levels that they can usually say that the upgrade isn't available because it would be a 2 level jump. For example, ranking might be partial pool view, pool view, deluxe pool view, but if "pool view" isn't available, I can't use my points for partial pool view and get upgraded to a better view. Sorry if this isn't helpful!

 

[trippka]

So the basic crux of the situation is that us HGV members (pre grandfather phase) continue (so far) to book HGV like usual.
If we want DRI resorts, we'll either have to buy DRI, Purchase Max, or possibly if the resort is in RCI, book it that way.

It seems it doesn't (IMO) make sense to spend $7k for DRI access and I'd be better off using RCI (if possible) or buying resale DRI?

Although I know I tried to put an OGS in for Cabo Azul in RCI (last year, maybe?) and the system wouldn't let me. Called and the rep tried doing it as well and it wouldn't let her. She dug into it and said the resort wasn't "in" the RCI system or something similar (I know it's in Interval) so I wonder if that was something to do with DRI/HGV merger? Dunno. But she thought it was weird that the resort was in the list, but unable to be booked/OGS'd.

BUT that was a while ago (that's one of the few DRI resorts I'd be interested in)

I've never been able to book via Interval for that resort, either. (shows up in the list, but never get a match with my trades)

You know that DRI pulled out of Interval (although we can have our own membership independent of DRI). DRI encourages us to use their internal trading system DEX instead. For you to get a Cabo Azul week, a DRI member would have to book a week there, then put it up for trade in II or RCI. Doesn't seem likely to me. I know I would never do that as it would be near impossible to find something I like as well in exchange for my week at CA. Marriott members get exchange priority at II, and although I am a Marriott owner (Hawaii and Aruba) they keep my Marriott II membership separate from my other accounts. I wouldn't be likely to be able to trade my CA week for a Marriott week.

 

[trippka]

The Cabo Azul OGSs I set up in RCI just matched for 2BRs in early and mid July 2023. RCI is going to be a much cheaper way for me to do my DRI visits than making a new HGV developer purchase.

Very interesting! Since that is over a year away, it has to be Developer Weeks. None of us have access to our weeks at CA for 7/23 yet. I will have to see if I can get some weeks!

 

[90_Min_Sales_Pitch]

The thing that bothers me most about being left in the HGVC legacy product (if that is how it turns out) is being locked out of any new properties and a fear that booking exchanges in the legacy club could become harder.

I don’t see myself ever going for MAX at the current price of entry. I am more likely to go buy some legacy Marriott and then make a purchase so I can trade with points there than I am to buy MAX … but I am not in a big hurry to do anything other than find out “the rest of the story” on HGV MAX. We could use some Paul Harvey on this.

People certainly need to know what future builds mean. Let's say it is 2032, and we've got these additional properties:

Hilton Grand Vacation Reno
Hilton Grand Vacation Lake Erie
Hilton Grand Vacation Dubai
Hilton Grand Vacation Singapore
Hilton Grand Vacation Antarctica

Do Max members, only have 6 months access to these new properties? Do the new owners at these locations, have an advantage? I see this only going one of two ways:

1. We'll be continuously asked to buy more, so that we stay competitive.
2. Max is just a transition phase, giving some of us early access, but HGVC and HGV Max will be fully merged in time.

 

[trippka]

Very interesting! Since that is over a year away, it has to be Developer Weeks. None of us have access to our weeks at CA for 7/23 yet. I will have to see if I can get some weeks!

Just went to try and book a week, but all that are left for now are the studios (hotel rooms) with no kitchens. Just wondering if you saw the "resort fee" and still think it is cheaper on RCI.

Resort amenities fee is 770 to 920 local currency. Cash or Credit is accepted.

The fee (plus tax) is per day/per unit depending on size of unit and covers the use of amenities.

 

[escanoe]

2. Max is just a transition phase, giving some of us early access, but HGVC and HGV Max will be fully merged in time.

I agree HGV Max is in a transition/creation phase right now.

HGVC and HGV Max being fully merged in time …. that may be a bit of wishful thinking, but I hope it happens.

There is some evidence talk they want to go to a trust … and they may in part. But I am not that sure a lot of the upper tier of HGVC owners will want to go to a trust. And HGV’s CEO has said they want to target Asian customers that do not tend to be very keen on trusts. I suspect deeded properties may be around (at least as part of the mix) for a while … but that is not what the sales weasels are saying.

 

[Mowogo]

The thing that bothers me most about being left in the HGVC legacy product (if that is how it turns out) is being locked out of any new properties and a fear that booking exchanges in the legacy club could become harder.

I don’t see myself ever going for MAX at the current price of entry. I am more likely to go buy some legacy Marriott and then make a purchase so I can trade with points there than I am to buy MAX … but I am not in a big hurry to do anything other than find out “the rest of the story” on HGV MAX. We could use some Paul Harvey on this.

If I am cut off from future HGVC properties without MAX then that is my clue that unless I am willing to put serious investment into HGVC to get retail, then I am definitely going to have to adjust how I view HGVC in long term planning, especially in contrast to how the family Vistana holdings are being treated. I am glad I had very low acquisition costs and am ok if I decide to scale back within HGVC and give some of my contracts away

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I am a little confused by your point totals. Are these meant to be DRI? If so, there are no 2BR oceanfronts at Kaanapali Beach Club, and there are no 1BRs at all at P@P. The KBC oceanfronts are 1BR, and the 2BRs are very limited and at the back of the resort. I have points in both the Hawaii and Cabo Azul collections. I only use these resorts. They say 14mo availability for my status level, but realistically it is 13 mo as it requires developer owned weeks to be freed up at 14 mo, and they would rather rent them to new prospects. At 13 mo, I usually can't get exactly what I want in Feb or Mar at either resort. Lots of people have several months of points, and they can book a 1 month stay, so effectively they are getting to my desired units a month before me. I can always get something, though probably not the oceanfront I want. As for Cabo Azul, there is usually discounted availability in the summer months, but they are for hotel type suites with no kitchen. I like having a kitchen and a real bedroom so that I can be up working, watching TV, etc. while my husband sleeps in. It is really hard for me to get a 1BR oceanfront no matter what I do. I am happy to use the oceanview for fewer points though. The sad part about the spotty availability is that I am supposed to be able to upgrade to the next level up, but they have so MANY different levels that they can usually say that the upgrade isn't available because it would be a 2 level jump. For example, ranking might be partial pool view, pool view, deluxe pool view, but if "pool view" isn't available, I can't use my points for partial pool view and get upgraded to a better view. Sorry if this isn't helpful!

Your information is very helpful. I was referring in general to the DRI points charts that were shared. I used point references to where I would like to stay: P@P for the 2 bdrm Peak and Sedona. Overall the points required relative to HGVC appear to be higher. For example, it seems that a 1 bdrm in DRI can run 11k to 15k points. In HGVC they are lower.

 

[tananth]

More generally, the MF for similar size DRI properties are around 2x the MF in HGVC : you can check the tugbb timeshare comparison chart posted in one of the sticky threads.

HGVC is going to have a hard time merging the systems, particularly since many DRI properties are currently of lower quality than HGVC : any attempts to upgrade the DRI properties would have to be paid with higher MF on the DRI side (to pay off the upgrade cost over time) making the ratio even worse. Quite frankly, part of the current high MF for DRI can only be explained as payments over time to cover past development (or upgrade) costs that were never fully reflected in the original timeshare prices.

 

[NiteMaire]

HGVC is going to have a hard time merging the systems, particularly since many DRI properties are currently of lower quality than HGVC : any attempts to upgrade the DRI properties would have to be paid with higher MF on the DRI side

Except according to HGV, DRI properties will be "entry level" HVC properties. DRI properties need to meet a Hilton standard, but it's not as high as HGVC.
Some DRI properties already meet the HVC standard and have been/will be rebranded without having to upgrade. Others will have to upgrade prior to rebranding.

 

[90_Min_Sales_Pitch]

More generally, the MF for similar size DRI properties are around 2x the MF in HGVC : you can check the tugbb timeshare comparison chart posted in one of the sticky threads.

HGVC is going to have a hard time merging the systems, particularly since many DRI properties are currently of lower quality than HGVC : any attempts to upgrade the DRI properties would have to be paid with higher MF on the DRI side (to pay off the upgrade cost over time) making the ratio even worse. Quite frankly, part of the current high MF for DRI can only be explained as payments over time to cover past development (or upgrade) costs that were never fully reflected in the original timeshare prices.

I can't imagine standard DRI properties merging, for the reasons you've stated. Also from what I understand, Diamond was an acquisition company, so those MF may be reflected in the prior company's financial situation. The quality, amenities, and footprint can vary greatly. I've stayed at two Diamond properties locally, and other than the "Stay Happy, Stay Healthy, Stay Vacationed" promo on the TV, they felt like they were from two completely different companies.

 

[tananth]

Except according to HGV, DRI properties will be "entry level" HVC properties. DRI properties need to meet a Hilton standard, but it's not as high as HGVC.
Some DRI properties already meet the HVC standard and have been/will be rebranded without having to upgrade. Others will have to upgrade prior to rebranding.

OK, let assume no further upgrades are done on the DRI side. But how is HGVC going to unload any remaining inventory on the DRI side when the equivalent HGVC Max offering will have around half the MF. The only way to do that is to either:

1. Raise the retail per point price on the HGVC side to above the DRI level, so the salesman can offer either a lower MF (HGVC) OR a lower retail purchase price per point (DRI).
OR
2. Raise the MF on the HGVC side (for new sales) to match the DRI MF level (which would require switching to a points trust like Marriot).

Either way new retail sales for HGVC are going to be less attractive going forward.

 

[pedro47]

When is Hilton going to make an official announcement about their program and how it will work?