CLOSED: Thread Dedicated to the Upcoming/Anticipated Integration of Vistana & Marriott Ownerships (Marriott Link + Vistana Discussion)

[Mroze]

Seems to me that this would indicate that they don't automatically add any ROFR weeks to the trust - that would require them to remove the weeks from the trust in order to support selling them as deeded, which would complicate the transaction. It might be more likely that Marriott has an inventory of unsold weeks that aren't in the trust that they do this with.

We have purchased 2 Hybrid-Bundles [WEEK + POINTS] over the years [MRD: 2016 & MCV: 2021].
Not sure where those weeks [sold by Marriott for ~$10K Each] came from.

On multiple occasions [Sales-Presentations] we were presented a list [dozens of resorts] of Deeded-Weeks to choose from.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Aren't these deeded week real estate transactions and therefore open public records?

Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?

You cannot sell something without a buyer, and you cannot sell real estate (weeks) without creating public records, so yes, I do think Marriott keep all ROFR'ed weeks, until there's any signs or evidence to the contrary.

The only records I have every looked for online were Horry County records to make sure my SBP weeks purchases have recorded. I don't think many of us look at public records. How could you possibly look at every resort in every county to see if someone previously owned a week? Why would you do that?

I feel like I am pretty timeshare savvy, and I agree with Alan Cole when he says all timeshares are used, used, used. It's pretty rare to move into a timeshare that was just built and stay in a brand new unit. Even if you do get to do that once, the next year you are staying in a very used and sometimes abused unit.

 

[rickandcindy23]

The problem with the $3 "junk fee" is that it's totally up to Marriott. It was $1 in 2010 and raised over time. That obviously also contributes to the decline in resale prices since if a buyer is willing to pay $6, they won't pay $7 if Marriott increases the fee tomorrow by $1. Rather, the part that goes to the actual seller will be lower.

Resale prices bottomed out in the pandemic between $1-$2 and have ticked up slightly, like they did for many deeded weeks. Redweek prices:
Marriott Vacation Club Points for Sale | RedWeek

I don't this they care if the bottom falls out - They can buy at ROFR and resell at full price or they can let it through and make the junk fee. They make money either way.

I have been considering buying some of these. I wonder if I should buy some DC points that I see on ebay. Maybe it's not a bad deal, if I can get a larger number of them. How do you know what the underlying deeds are? There has to be underlying deeds, right?

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@DanCali I agree. It's what I call and evil-genius business model. With DP points the business becomes a points/deeds recycling model at the flip of an IT switch. Get others to pay for your mud week deeds via DP trust. Dictate the value of the resales via your junk fee so they drop down to nothing and then you get almost free inventory (or make money on the junk fee). It is a Razor/Blade strategy with the blades being the expensive DP maint fee. (and boy do those MF cut!). The house makes all the rules...

Perhaps some find value in this. No thank you. Not for me. I will stick with my deeds because I keep some measure of control.

 

[VacationForever]

I suspect this happens as part of a transaction involving resale weeks enrollment (and has been reported by tuggers)

They first try to sell you points in exchange for enrolling resale weeks. If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks. However, my experience in such a presentation is that they still price that developer week as if it were points - meaning however many points it converts to x point price. The only difference is the MFs are based on the deeded week.

Not true. After you decline to buy because DC points are too expensive, they then pull out a sheet with hybrid bundles, which is a combination of deeded week and matching DC points. All weeks in the bundle are brokered resales for owners who want to sell weeks. There are a few non-US location resorts that are offered up as straight up weeks as though they are points.

 

[VacationForever]

I have been considering buying some of these. I wonder if I should buy some DC points that I see on ebay. Maybe it's not a bad deal, if I can get a larger number of them. How do you know what the underlying deeds are? There has to be underlying deeds, right?

Resale points are just....Trust points. The deeds are held in the Trust.

 

[CPNY]

Not true. After you decline to buy because DC points are too expensive, they then pull out a sheet with hybrid bundles, which is a combination of deeded week and matching DC points. All weeks in the bundle are brokered resales for owners who want to sell weeks. There are a few non-US location resorts that are offered up as straight up weeks as though they are points.

When I was speaking with sales two years back I declined all DC point sales offers. They came back with a St Kitts unit worth a decent amount of DC points and a lower MF. Ultimately I didn’t want to spend $39K so I passed. If I had to buy direct in the future, that’s the deal I’d want to make. A resale enrolled week via Marriott for DC points.

 

[VacationForever]

I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. A "Platinum" week at SMV is completely equal in both value and cost in VSN.

Every SMV "Platinum" week is not equal in both value and cost in MVC DPs. For cost to reserve those weeks, MVC has created a whole separate division of the weeks (that doesn't map to what constitutes a "Platinum" week at SMV). You are correct, the DP value any Platinum owner receives from MVC is the same, but it equates to an average (minus skim) of the DP value of all the "Platinum" weeks in MVC's "division" of the weeks. The implication of this is that if the SMV "Platinum" season includes a substantial number of weeks that the "MVC division" allocates lower DP values, the average is lower and thus the DPs received is lower.

Isn't this the basis of DC points complexity which we have posted 76 pages on?

The question was why does SMV get such low DC point allocation to owners. The answer is that it is a less desirable property compared to other ski resorts.

To draw a parallel would be WKV vs. SDO. Many owners sought out SDO true platinum week for retro as it would give 148,100 SO.

With DC, WKV platinum week gets 4050 while SDO gets 2600 DC points. As long as VSN is around, SDO platinum owners won't be electing DC points.

 

[VacationForever]

When I was speaking with sales two years back I declined all DC point sales offers. They came back with a St Kitts unit worth a decent amount of DC points and a lower MF. Ultimately I didn’t want to spend $39K so I passed. If I had to buy direct in the future, that’s the deal I’d want to make. A resale enrolled week via Marriott for DC points.

Correct, St. Kitts is one of the resorts which MVC would offer the week straight up.

 

[DanCali]

I have been considering buying some of these. I wonder if I should buy some DC points that I see on ebay. Maybe it's not a bad deal, if I can get a larger number of them. How do you know what the underlying deeds are? There has to be underlying deeds, right?

I think some tuggers on the Marriott used to keep track of the deeds in the trust in the early years of the DC but I can't really find those references.

If you're thinking of buying points you should read the Sticky on the Marriott forum.

Marriott Abound (formerly Destination Club) Points-System FAQ & Guide

** During 2022 Marriott Vacations Worldwide announced in Investor Meetings that Vistana timeshares would be integrated into the Marriott points system, and, that the Destination Club would be renamed Abound. After all details have been officially announced, this FAQ will be reviewed/edited to...

tugbbs.com

The prevailing thought is that, while DC Trust Members have direct access to inventory in the DC Trust as well as inventory available through the DC Exchange Company, functionally most of that Trust inventory is available via the exchange company to all. Meaning you can access it with any enrolled week you might have.

I'd be wary of buying a lot of points given the high MFs and the fact that at least 50% of your upfront cost (junk fee) will likely never be recovered. Once you have access to the system (you can get that by buying just 1000 resale points or having an enrolled week) you can rent as many points as you need from others and use as needed. In my case I elected a week in 2022, and rented points for 2023 usage. Renting is very easy as long as you are careful about potential fraud. This is what my account looks like:

 

[SueDonJ]

Aren't these deeded week real estate transactions and therefore open public records?

Also - has anyone reported on TUG since 2010 that they purchased a week direct from Marriott (as opposed to their 'brokered' resale system, which is no longer operating) ?

You cannot sell something without a buyer, and you cannot sell real estate (weeks) without creating public records, so yes, I do think Marriott keep all ROFR'ed weeks, until there's any signs or evidence to the contrary.

Yes, public records can be searched for both Weeks sales and DC Trust conveyances.

Marriott hasn't ever disclosed whether they originally seeded the DC Trust with every Week that they still had in their inventory at the DC inception (whether unsold or re-acquired from owners,) nor have they disclosed how many un-conveyed (to the DC Trust) Weeks they've had in their inventory at any time since. I think the closest we can get is the dollar value in the annual investor statements of the unnamed inventory they're currently holding. As has been said, they seem to keep at least a portion un-conveyed to facilitate their Trust Points/Enrolled Weeks bundle packages.

As for anyone reporting the origin of any Weeks sold by Marriott since 2010, for all intents and purposes the re-acquired Weeks sold/brokered by Marriott are effectively direct purchases with all the associated benefits. One of my direct purchases long before the DC was a Marriott-brokered resale and the only reason we know that is because the paperwork references the original owner. Generally the question of whether a direct purchase from Marriott is an original never-sold Week or a re-acquired/brokered Week is not a distinction worth noting, because most (all?) of the eligibility/usage rules differentiate only between Marriott-direct or external-resale.

 

[VacationForever]

With my experience in both wanting Marriott to resell my weeks and puchase of a hybrid bundle, Marriott was simply a middle man. I still have the documents for reselling and it was very clearly stated that Marriott was the broker and I would receive 60% several years ago and more recently, 50% of the sale price.

With the hybrid purchase, Marriott had to go back and forth with the seller because they both messed up the first use year. I was sold year x as first use year but the paperwork was for year x + 1. It was pretty messy as the seller had booked and planned to use year x week. It took Marriott 4 months to correct the problem.

 

[TravelTime]

I do not understand the concept of skim when you convert SOs to DPs. It seems to me that the only reason to convert would be if you want to stay somewhere in the MVC system instead of staying at your home resort or using SOs for the Vistana resorts. So given that, why would skim matter?

 

[DanCali]

I do not understand the concept of skim when you convert SOs to DPs. It seems to me that the only reason to convert would be if you want to stay somewhere in the MVC system instead of staying at your home resort or using SOs for the Vistana resorts. So given that, why would skim matter?

It matters only if you care that each time you convert you are getting slightly less than your week is actually worth. You're essentially paying a 6%-9% fee in points.

Think of it this way in the current SVN system - if a Maui week currently worth 148,100 SOs gave owners only 140,000 SOs when they elected to exchange (and Staroptions charts stay the same as now for booking purposes), does it matter? That's 5.4% less so it'd be almost exactly the same thing to what Marriott does with the DC, just much easier to observe the "skim" in this case. You could still book your home resort anytime in your season, or use 140,000 SOs in SVN to trade to other places. You could still get 2BR units in many places, even 10+ nights in some places, but you might not be happy with what you can get at higher end resorts during higher demand weeks - maybe now you get only 6 nights instead of 7 in some places. But it's not your home resort - it's an exchange, so would it matter to you then?

 

[VacationForever]

I do not understand the concept of skim when you convert SOs to DPs. It seems to me that the only reason to convert would be if you want to stay somewhere in the MVC system instead of staying at your home resort or using SOs for the Vistana resorts. So given that, why would skim matter?

It actually matters but I have rationalized that they need to do so to cover flexibility and extra cleanings.

Here is why. Let's say there are two identical resorts wrt desirability, size etc. Resort A and B would each require 4000 DC points to book a week. I own at resort A and would like to travel to resort B. MVC only gives me 3500 DC points for my week. Oops, I don't have enough to book 7 days at resort B. I can only book 6 days.

If I want more points, then I will need to pony up some money to buy the 500 points, either as renting points from other owners or buy more points! (Music to MVC's ears!)

 

[catharsis]

I suspect this happens as part of a transaction involving resale weeks enrollment (and has been reported by tuggers)

They first try to sell you points in exchange for enrolling resale weeks. If you tell them that you don't like the point MFs (ridiculously high) they can get more creative and will sell you a week in exchange for enrolling other resale weeks. However, my experience in such a presentation is that they still price that developer week as if it were points - meaning however many points it converts to x point price. The only difference is the MFs are based on the deeded week.

I always understood that those hybrid deals either involved a 'brokered' week (i.e. not owned by Marriott - no longer happening) or more recently a week in the Caribbean, typically. I cannot recall any example of someone being offered such a hybrid purchase including any week within the US since they closed the broker operation.

Hence I continue to think Marriott have never sold a developer week in the US which they owned or bought through ROFR since 2010. I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong on this, but not seen any evidence to that effect up to now.

 

[TravelTime]

It actually matters but I have rationalized that they need to do so to cover flexibility and extra cleanings.

Here is why. Let's say there are two identical resorts wrt desirability, size etc. Resort A and B would each require 4000 DC points to book a week. I own at resort A and would like to travel to resort B. MVC only gives me 3500 DC points for my week. Oops, I don't have enough to book 7 days at resort B. I can only book 6 days.

If I want more points, then I will need to pony up some money to buy the 500 points, either as renting points from other owners or buy more points! (Music to MVC's ears!)

Okay I understand this. However, I still wonder if I care. For example, I get 4950 DPs EOY for my Ko Olina unit. It is less than my ocean view week in most cases if not all. However, if I want to go somewhere else, then I appreciate getting 4950 points because many places I go cost less than that. If I want to go to someplace more expensive like Maui, then I pony up the extra points with other DPs I own or I could rent the difference at the same cost as MFs if I do not have points. Maui OF is more expensive than Ko Olina so it is understandable I would need more points. However, it would be nice if they did not skim for Ko Olina and I could get 5000+ points that is equivalent to most seasons I can book at Ko Olina.

This year I went to Ko Olina and did not use my week. I used DPs in spite of the skim. I was able to stay in the penthouse using DPs as well as go in an odd year even though my week is in an even year. I just think converting to DPs, even with a skim, can give more flexibility.

 

[DanCali]

I just think converting to DPs, even with a skim, can give more flexibility.

This is probably how most owners feel (and how MVC thought they would feel).

My NCV Platinum week converts to only 3475 and that can still get me a week in a 2BR at many resorts during many weeks of the year. But I'm still paying for that privilege since that week should be worth around 3700 DC points.

The "skim" also can change an owner's calculations in terms of election for points or renting. If I can rent my NCV week for $2800 (in reality is a bit more) and use that to rent 4000 points, I am not sure I want to use it to elect only 3475 DPs. I may be more likely to elect points and avoid the rental workaround if the comparison was 3700 vs 4000.

Compared to the Platinum week, it's a much easier decision or me to elect 5300 points for a Platinum Plus NCV week (even with skim) because the disparity vs. rental is immaterial, or even favors points slightly.

 

[VacationForever]

Okay I understand this. However, I still wonder if I care. For example, I get 4950 DPs EOY for my Ko Olina unit. It is less than my ocean view week in most cases if not all. However, if I want to go somewhere else, then I appreciate getting 4950 points because many places I go cost less than that. If I want to go to someplace more expensive like Maui, then I pony up the extra points with other DPs I own or I could rent the difference at the same cost as MFs if I do not have points. Maui OF is more expensive than Ko Olina so it is understandable I would need more points. However, it would be nice if they did not skim for Ko Olina and I could get 5000+ points that is equivalent to most seasons I can book at Ko Olina.

This year I went to Ko Olina and did not use my week. I used DPs in spite of the skim. I was able to stay in the penthouse using DPs as well as go in an odd year even though my week is in an even year. I just think converting to DPs, even with a skim, can give more flexibility.

If you own highly desirable weeks where you get many DC points, then you don't care about skim because you are mainly going to use the points to travel to cheaper DC points resorts, turning a week into 2 weeks or more.

I don't own Hawaii resorts because I don't like want to commit to hopping on a plane for vacation with any sort of regularity. So owners like me feel the skim when I want to trade into similar resorts which I own. Fortunately, for where we want to go, it is an easy trade in II. While we are in the DC program, and everything that we bought are post June 2010, we don't use really use points too much. I have rented out my 2020 and 2021 points to cover my MF+. We are now in the midst of deciding what to do in 2022 with our 2021 banked points and 2022 points , maybe a Collette tour, an owners' cruise or owners event.

 

[grgs]

With DC, WKV platinum week gets 4050 while SDO gets 2600 DC points. As long as VSN is around, SDO platinum owners won't be electing DC points.

Do we know (as much as we know anything at this point) if the SDO DP allocation of 2600 for a 1-52 float unit or a true Plat unit?

 

[Mroze]

Do we know (as much as we know anything at this point) if the SDO DP allocation of 2600 for a 1-52 float unit or a true Plat unit?

Based on this image someone uploaded earlier in this thread I suspect it will be ~2600 for a 2BR-PLAT-Unit.
Since I can see only half the sheet and the #'s for exchanging into a 2BR seem quite low [1450, 1725] with JAN-27 -> APR-08 [3125].

 

[VacationForever]

Do we know (as much as we know anything at this point) if the SDO DP allocation of 2600 for a 1-52 float unit or a true Plat unit?

@jabberwocky reported it that SDO true platinum gets 2600 DC points.

 

[CKMason]

We are currently at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach and attended a sales presentation for Vistana on April 23. According to the salesperson the locations in Myrtle Beach and in Orlando (both Marriott and Vistana) are engaged in “pre-rollout” sales presentations relating to the rollout of the “blended” system on July 1—or as our salesperson put it “late summer”. In addition to the presentations at Myrtle Beach and Orlando, there are also dog and pony shows for invited owners in other locations, including Washington DC.

Before I go further, you need to know that our situation may not be typical. We are 3-Star Elite with Vistana and Chairman’s Club with Marriott all with developer purchases. (Yes, I know but that is a discussion for another time.). I do not know how Vistana/Marriott will handle resale purchases in this new system.

According to what the salespersons (one from the Vistana side and one from the Marriott side) told us, if you buy into the blended system, both your StarOptions and your Marriott ownership (for us points and weeks) will show up together on both the Vistana dashboard and the Marriott web account. You will be able to move, at no further cost, Vistana points into Destination Points and vice versa. You will be able to make Marriott reservations in the Vistana system and vice-versa. If you have an II account for Marriott and one for Vistana, those will also be merged into one account. The blended system will also move your Vistana points into the Marriott Trust, which will then allow for Vistana StarOptions to be resold to Marriott [Vistana currently does not do buy-backs] and, according to the sales people, will ease inheritance issues, especially if your children don’t want the timeshares [never could get this straight in my mind, except that with Vistana, it appears that the timeshares roll into your estate automatically, but I thought that the executor could always reject them.]

In addition, instead of the various fees that Vistana charges [banking, point conversion to Marriott Bonvoy, II fees for internal (Marriott to Vistana and vice-versa) exchanges, reservation cancellations, guest fees], these will now all be covered by the standard Marriott fee for the appropriate level, The Marriott fee covers both Vistana and Marriott membership, but I suspect it will go up proportionately. In addition, there will be no more housekeeping fees as we now experience with Vistana when the number of uses of points exceeds a certain level.

In the blended system, there is no more Home Resort window for reservations. All Vistana resorts will be able to be booked 12 months out and all Marriott resorts 13 months out, at least for Chairman’s Club level members. I am assuming that to book a Marriott with Vistana StarOptions, one would first have to convert the number needed and then the timeframe would apply.

The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value. We were given full credit for the dollars we spent on our current ownership plus credit for an Explorer package we had purchased earlier plus credit for the hotels we stayed in on the road getting to Myrtle Beach. [They give up to 10 days credit coming and going; we got a good deal because we stayed on Marriott Bonvoy points on our trip and got credit for full value of the room rate.].

We have 176,700 StarOptions which would be valued at 5,140 Destination Points in the blended system. [34.37 StarOptions to 1 Destination Club Point]. It does appear that there will still be some “skim” in the system from Vistana to Marriott. I did a quick analysis comparing 2-bedroom lockouts in prime time [February/March] for Marriott Desert Springs II [3,775 Destination Club Points] and Westin Mission Hills [148,100 StarOptions] with the result of 39.23 StarOptions points to 1 Destination Club Point]. [Purchase price: 34.37; spend price 39.23]. Even in the blended system, it probably would be better to use StarOptions for Vistana resorts and Destination Club points for Marriott resorts.

The claim is, and I have no idea if it is true, it will be more expensive on the Marriott side to buy into the system. Essentially the current going price for a StarOption is about $.43 per point which should make a Marriott Destination Club point run about $14.72.

That is pretty much my brain dump about what we were told. Of course, there is NO paperwork to undergird the statements made. We are supposed to get it in the coming weeks as the system rolls out for good. Caveat emptor.

I will post this on the Marriott Board for their information also.

 

[DanCali]

We are currently at Sheraton Broadway Plantation in Myrtle Beach and attended a sales presentation for Vistana on April 23....

Before I go further, you need to know that our situation may not be typical. We are 3-Star Elite with Vistana and Chairman’s Club with Marriott all with developer purchases. (Yes, I know but that is a discussion for another time.). I do not know how Vistana/Marriott will handle resale purchases in this new system.

The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value. We were given full credit for the dollars we spent on our current ownership plus credit for an Explorer package we had purchased earlier plus credit for the hotels we stayed in on the road getting to Myrtle Beach. [They give up to 10 days credit coming and going; we got a good deal because we stayed on Marriott Bonvoy points on our trip and got credit for full value of the room rate.].

Did you actually make an additional purchase/upgrade in this presentation from 5 days ago? It sounds like you might have, but I am not sure.

Since everything was already a developer purchase for you, I highly doubt that was necessary to gain access to any new system.

You statement about "The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value" - sounds like they just "marked to market" a prior developer purchase of a week or Flex points?

 

[CKMason]

Did you actually make an additional purchase/upgrade in this presentation from 5 days ago? It sounds like you might have, but I am not sure.

Since everything was already a developer purchase for you, I highly doubt that was necessary to gain access to any new system.

You statement about "The process requires one to turn in their current ownership of StarOptions and repurchase at the current StarOption point value" - sounds like they just "marked to market" a prior developer purchase of a week or Flex points?

Yes we fell for their presentation, mostly because by the time they gave us all the credits, it was not exorbitant in cost. Also my memory of how Marriott DC points increased very fast after the first offer played into our decision. We also get to use our Encore package, but without having to attend the timeshare presentation. And we save a considerable amount in maintenance fees since we skip a year of usage [new package starts in 2024]. We have bonus and banked points to use up, so using these and saving the maintenance fee also played into our decision.

Yes, they did mark to market the StarOptions. As I said, it worked for us because of all the credits, but it might now work for very many other folks. That's why I wanted to put this information out for people to have when Marriott or Vistana comes calling.